The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players. This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
He is cutting staff left, right and centre The squad added free transfers in the close season The club shop doesn't have anything in it He borrowed £350k from a fan
If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that. Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
We are losing millions It's a crazy business
You have focused on one part of my post
TS is NOT a fan He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this
Don't necessarily mean he's out of cash, it could also mean that he's not willing to put anymore of his own in. Which is just as worrying
Which is why we are stuck with bottom half mediocrity
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
He is cutting staff left, right and centre The squad added free transfers in the close season The club shop doesn't have anything in it He borrowed £350k from a fan
If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that. Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
We are losing millions It's a crazy business
You have focused on one part of my post
TS is NOT a fan He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this
Not saying you are wrong, but none of those reasons imo signify that he doesn’t have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC as an ongoing concern.
This
I'm fed up with people saying he hasn't got money as a matter of fact. Simply not true. Whether he wants to invest anymore is another matter.
Some interesting stuff in there. I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis. Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
What does this mean? Does it go up?
They still get back £7M I think.
But in today's money it's not worth what is was when they loaned it due to inflation, so in the books it has to be discounted to be shown at net present value, reported to be £6.8M tin this set of accounts to comply with accounting conventions.
Don't worry about it.
Yes, but it’s about future inflation not past inflation. It’s basically that the £7m won’t be £7m in today’s money as it won’t become repayable in 2023 (even if it’s triggered it’s repayable over a period of years). It’s not to do with loan agreement of itself and the debt will still be £7m.
Some interesting stuff in there. I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis. Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
What does this mean? Does it go up?
They still get back £7M I think.
But in today's money it's not worth what is was when they loaned it due to inflation, so in the books it has to be discounted to be shown at net present value, reported to be £6.8M tin this set of accounts to comply with accounting conventions.
Don't worry about it.
Yes, but it’s about future inflation not past inflation. It’s basically that the £7m won’t be £7m in today’s money as it won’t become repayable in 2023 (even if it’s triggered it’s repayable over a period of years). It’s not to do with loan agreement of itself and the debt will still be £7m.
Of course it is! Thanks for correcting me. I'm too long out of the job now and trying to forget about FRS's and other accounting conventions.
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
Absolute rubbish. Depends what you could have done with the cash instead of investing it in a facility owned by Duchatalet.
I have no idea who loaned the £350k, but TS has publicly explained what happened. Did TS go out and try to find a fan to cajole into lending him £350K because he was skint? Did Neil Armstrong walk on the moon?
As TS doesn't own the freehold, all the investment in the facilities is at risk, and he will have those risks at the back of his mind when investing in the facilities. If a fan wants to share the risk with TS to encourage him to maintain support for the Academy it's just that, not proof that TS is skint.
TS loans his own cash interest free (unlike Duchatalet) and is only re-payable if TS pays himself back. The fan's loan has a purported decent return, so it will cost TS more than using his own cash.
If 10,000 fans can't be bothered to turn up, put their hands in their pockets to buy a ticket for a match, and provide revenue to the club why would they put their hand in their pocket to enhance the value of a facility owned by Duchatalet they might never get back?
I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers.
I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers.
Form a consortium through a bunch of investors who all put in "x" amount to raise the funds to negotiate with RD for the freeholds and extra funds for investment in the team. Set a target of payback within 3 - 5 years or reaching prem. when all consortium members get back their investment + an agreed percentage...TS has a vehicle to enable this (and it already invests in Charlton): https://www.sandgaardcapital.com/.
I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers.
Employ professional business management with relevant experience and let them manage?
I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers.
Employ professional business management with relevant experience and let them manage?
Absolutely Airman, that almost didn't pass the feasibility test simply because of Sandgaards head in the sand attitude.
The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players. This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
The £7m debt would not be wiped by administration because it is secured as the first charge over the freehold assets as well as the football club. It ranks above Sandgaard’s loans to the club, too.
Either it would fall back on RD as the freeholder or Sandgaard would be liable for it because he has entered into some private arrangement over it, although the latter is pure speculation.
Ultimately, I believe that TS could invest in the club if he wanted to. If he truly cared about success on the pitch, he would have invested in the players we needed in the last window. You cannot get out of this league on the cheap. The other teams are too good for that. I find the fact that he took this fan loan as generally quite astonishing.
Instead, we find ourselves treading water and being in a worse place as a result. Taking the approach of trying to break even is fine, as Lauren says, but you can’t do that in this league with the commitments we already have. Growth is intrinsically linked to success on the pitch, which requires investment. It’s a vicious circle that doesn’t have positive outcomes for anyone. You cannot just say we’re not going to spend until we are breaking even when the incomes will just reduce without investment.
Chasing Championship promotion through continued investment is expensive, but I think TS has enough personal funds to do that (if Google-able data about his net worth is even close to accurate). If success was truly something he wanted, he’d have brought in the players Garner wanted in time. Trying to run everything within his family circle, without experience of running a football club and treating it like a US business entity is not going to get us up the leagues. The ignorance and stubborn nature of this man to not have experienced counsel on the football business is effectively negligent.
It's not like we were chasing the PL promised land. That’s the insane money. The very reasonable expectation for fans is top-end competitive for L1, which for a club of our size, is still even slightly below where we should be. Everything is earned on the pitch, but that’s what we should be aiming for to reach for the break-even objective. If you invest no transfer fees in a summer window, this is what you get.
It’s utterly infuriating. If he cared, he’d put his hand in his pocket.
The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players. This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
The £7m debt would not be wiped by administration because it is secured as the first charge over the freehold assets as well as the football club. It ranks above Sandgaard’s loans to the club, too.
Either it would fall back on RD as the freeholder or Sandgaard would be liable for it because he has entered into some private arrangement over it, although the latter is pure speculation.
What? is it with this seven-million-pound debit that makes people obsess about it. it is the least of the clubs' worries. If you could find an owner who could buy out TS and afford the day-to-day costs of running the club, he would be wealthy enough to pay such a trivial sum in football terms.
I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers.
Form a consortium through a bunch of investors who all put in "x" amount to raise the funds to negotiate with RD for the freeholds and extra funds for investment in the team. Set a target of payback within 3 - 5 years or reaching prem. when all consortium members get back their investment + an agreed percentage...TS has a vehicle to enable this (and it already invests in Charlton): https://www.sandgaardcapital.com/.
That's a great idea but I can see a problem with enough people with the capital as well as dealing with the problem of Dutchelet's price increases when he thinks he has a fish on the line.
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
He is cutting staff left, right and centre The squad added free transfers in the close season The club shop doesn't have anything in it He borrowed £350k from a fan
If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that. Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
We are losing millions It's a crazy business
You have focused on one part of my post
TS is NOT a fan He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this
Not sure about those lyrics, how does the tune go? It might work… is it a Billy Bragg inspired track?
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough
If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns.
Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.
It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.
It’s a numbers game. There are only 22 clubs in the Premier League, and 72 clubs dreaming of joining them.
"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
Source?
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. And got a load of likes.
He is cutting staff left, right and centre The squad added free transfers in the close season The club shop doesn't have anything in it He borrowed £350k from a fan
If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that. Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
We are losing millions It's a crazy business
You have focused on one part of my post
TS is NOT a fan He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this
Not saying you are wrong, but none of those reasons imo signify that he doesn’t have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC as an ongoing concern.
This
I'm fed up with people saying he hasn't got money as a matter of fact. Simply not true. Whether he wants to invest anymore is another matter.
Agreed - and the exchange rate / dollar against the £ has gone in his favour recently
I reckon TS had the funds but has got pissed off with the fans, the academy system, agents, his own fuck ups and has just decided to shut up shop and cut costs - happened when he sacked jacko I’d say - probably told him he’d bought a load of crap and he thought right, might as well get the cheapest manager in the league - and he was available - and gamble on him unearthing some league 2 gems - if that don’t work then he’s off - that’s my theory anyway - let’s just hope whoever’s next isn’t another disaster
Sandgaard has obviously had enough and is clearly trying to cut his losses. He is not going to fund a promotion charge and by January it will too late anyway. I doubt it matters to him whether we get relegated or not because in L1 or L2 the losses will continue to mount. So I wouldn't be surprised if any player with value will be sold in January to recover what he can and then he will write off the rest of the debt and sell to anybody who will take us on without any assets.
The silence from Sangaard is deafening. I do appreciate that he doesn't need to say anything but disappointed that he has almost ceased to engage with the fans .
The silence from Sangaard is deafening. I do appreciate that he doesn't need to say anything but disappointed that he has almost ceased to engage with the fans .
Isn’t that what the majority of fans wanted though, both on this forum and Twitter?
While these accounts are interesting, they're not very representative of a normal season. 20/21, because of the lockdowns, was a financial disaster zone across sport.
21/22 will give us a better idea about the ongoing losses in a normal season, as it's that year which seems to have made TS change his whole way of running the club, from big ambitions to consolidation and indeed contraction.
I reckon TS had the funds but has got pissed off with the fans, the academy system, agents, his own fuck ups and has just decided to shut up shop and cut costs - happened when he sacked jacko I’d say - probably told him he’d bought a load of crap and he thought right, might as well get the cheapest manager in the league - and he was available - and gamble on him unearthing some league 2 gems - if that don’t work then he’s off - that’s my theory anyway - let’s just hope whoever’s next isn’t another disaster
Garner was one year into his contract at Swindon. He also had play off matches going into May and then, apparently, went off on holiday (how dare he! disgraceful conduct). TS could have opted to employ any out of work manager, so If there was a change of approach, including in how he handled social media, it happened later.
Not much though, for it might well have stemmed from the saga surrounding Garner's drawn out appointment, involving a lot of negative publicity. I remember it well as I'd only just signed up to CL. Don't blame me though as my posts back then we're broadly supportive of him
Anyway, that night have been the last straw given the other things you mention. I could be wrong of course, in which case, "understand that not to be correct".
I suspect it was the drop off of season ticket sales resulting in lower revenue and more losses that was the point he started to realize this is a bottomless pit he no longer wished to throw money at in the same way he had previously. Combined with the fact that those players we paid money for have generally been poor business (Kirk, DJ, Stockley, Schwartz, Aneke) from an economic perspective.
Genuinely astounded though that he paid £1.15M for us and +£600K for the women's team. Nimer/Southall can't have believed their luck.
Ultimately, I believe that TS could invest in the club if he wanted to. If he truly cared about success on the pitch, he would have invested in the players we needed in the last window. You cannot get out of this league on the cheap. The other teams are too good for that. I find the fact that he took this fan loan as generally quite astonishing.
Instead, we find ourselves treading water and being in a worse place as a result. Taking the approach of trying to break even is fine, as Lauren says, but you can’t do that in this league with the commitments we already have. Growth is intrinsically linked to success on the pitch, which requires investment. It’s a vicious circle that doesn’t have positive outcomes for anyone. You cannot just say we’re not going to spend until we are breaking even when the incomes will just reduce without investment.
Chasing Championship promotion through continued investment is expensive, but I think TS has enough personal funds to do that (if Google-able data about his net worth is even close to accurate). If success was truly something he wanted, he’d have brought in the players Garner wanted in time. Trying to run everything within his family circle, without experience of running a football club and treating it like a US business entity is not going to get us up the leagues. The ignorance and stubborn nature of this man to not have experienced counsel on the football business is effectively negligent.
It's not like we were chasing the PL promised land. That’s the insane money. The very reasonable expectation for fans is top-end competitive for L1, which for a club of our size, is still even slightly below where we should be. Everything is earned on the pitch, but that’s what we should be aiming for to reach for the break-even objective. If you invest no transfer fees in a summer window, this is what you get.
It’s utterly infuriating. If he cared, he’d put his hand in his pocket.
Its not about caring, its about prudence.
As I see it he is already sinking c£8m a year to keep us going. He then thinks that a number of academy players can keep us afloat in this league rather than having to pay fees for players ( currently Chin, Leaburn, Henry & Clayden) and if one of them can sparkle & he gets a return on them (latest one being Burstow) then jobs a good 'un.
To my mind you need to speculate to accumulate. Teams like Ipswich & Sheffield Wed have pushed the boat our this season and for the former it's working. And I don't think TS needed to spend that much in the summer. Maybe £500k -£700k combined on a striker & a left back.
But currently there appears not to be much money in the CAFC coffers if Golfie Jnr's exploits are to go by. He's still waiting to get paid for the 3 stints he's done in the sound booth on matchdays. Almost a month gone by & till no sign of any money.
Comments
This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
I'm fed up with people saying he hasn't got money as a matter of fact. Simply not true.
Whether he wants to invest anymore is another matter.
Nailed it.
It ain't rocket science...
I have no idea who loaned the £350k, but TS has publicly explained what happened. Did TS go out and try to find a fan to cajole into lending him £350K because he was skint? Did Neil Armstrong walk on the moon?
As TS doesn't own the freehold, all the investment in the facilities is at risk, and he will have those risks at the back of his mind when investing in the facilities. If a fan wants to share the risk with TS to encourage him to maintain support for the Academy it's just that, not proof that TS is skint.
TS loans his own cash interest free (unlike Duchatalet) and is only re-payable if TS pays himself back.
The fan's loan has a purported decent return, so it will cost TS more than using his own cash.
If 10,000 fans can't be bothered to turn up, put their hands in their pockets to buy a ticket for a match, and provide revenue to the club why would they put their hand in their pocket to enhance the value of a facility owned by Duchatalet they might never get back?
Instead, we find ourselves treading water and being in a worse place as a result. Taking the approach of trying to break even is fine, as Lauren says, but you can’t do that in this league with the commitments we already have. Growth is intrinsically linked to success on the pitch, which requires investment. It’s a vicious circle that doesn’t have positive outcomes for anyone. You cannot just say we’re not going to spend until we are breaking even when the incomes will just reduce without investment.
Chasing Championship promotion through continued investment is expensive, but I think TS has enough personal funds to do that (if Google-able data about his net worth is even close to accurate). If success was truly something he wanted, he’d have brought in the players Garner wanted in time. Trying to run everything within his family circle, without experience of running a football club and treating it like a US business entity is not going to get us up the leagues. The ignorance and stubborn nature of this man to not have experienced counsel on the football business is effectively negligent.
It's not like we were chasing the PL promised land. That’s the insane money. The very reasonable expectation for fans is top-end competitive for L1, which for a club of our size, is still even slightly below where we should be. Everything is earned on the pitch, but that’s what we should be aiming for to reach for the break-even objective. If you invest no transfer fees in a summer window, this is what you get.
It’s utterly infuriating. If he cared, he’d put his hand in his pocket.
If you could find an owner who could buy out TS and afford the day-to-day costs of running the club, he would be wealthy enough to pay such a trivial sum in football terms.
is it a Billy Bragg inspired track?
21/22 will give us a better idea about the ongoing losses in a normal season, as it's that year which seems to have made TS change his whole way of running the club, from big ambitions to consolidation and indeed contraction.
Not much though, for it might well have stemmed from the saga surrounding Garner's drawn out appointment, involving a lot of negative publicity. I remember it well as I'd only just signed up to CL. Don't blame me though as my posts back then we're broadly supportive of him
Anyway, that night have been the last straw given the other things you mention. I could be wrong of course, in which case, "understand that not to be correct".
Genuinely astounded though that he paid £1.15M for us and +£600K for the women's team. Nimer/Southall can't have believed their luck.
As I see it he is already sinking c£8m a year to keep us going. He then thinks that a number of academy players can keep us afloat in this league rather than having to pay fees for players ( currently Chin, Leaburn, Henry & Clayden) and if one of them can sparkle & he gets a return on them (latest one being Burstow) then jobs a good 'un.
To my mind you need to speculate to accumulate. Teams like Ipswich & Sheffield Wed have pushed the boat our this season and for the former it's working. And I don't think TS needed to spend that much in the summer. Maybe £500k -£700k combined on a striker & a left back.
But currently there appears not to be much money in the CAFC coffers if Golfie Jnr's exploits are to go by. He's still waiting to get paid for the 3 stints he's done in the sound booth on matchdays. Almost a month gone by & till no sign of any money.