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Sandgaard ownership discussion 2022-3 onwards (Meeting with CAST p138)
Comments
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It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough
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As was buying the Club, but such people are those we rely on to pay the bills and have a Club to support.AFKABartram said:Paying £650k+ for the woman’s team… bonkers
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I do think he expected us to be in the Championship by now with the increased TV revenue and player sales largely funding the club rather than himself.J BLOCK said:
Can't believe he's done that, considering the financial situation we are in and lack of investment in the mens team.AFKABartram said:Paying £650k+ for the woman’s team… bonkers10 -
If only he'd listened to #john_cafc_smith on TwitterScoham said:
I do think he expected us to be in the Championship by now with the increased TV revenue and player sales largely funding the club rather than himself.J BLOCK said:
Can't believe he's done that, considering the financial situation we are in and lack of investment in the mens team.AFKABartram said:Paying £650k+ for the woman’s team… bonkers0 -
It would probably be very interesting to compare these figures with similar size clubs in this division and that may give a better understanding of Sandgaards thinking but then again maybe not. It would not surprise me in the least that Charlton under Sandgaard would place the onus on the academy to provide first team players with next to nothing spent on recruits from other clubs, Airman has already pointed out that this comes with no guarantees, but I think we are already seeing that in practise.2
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Source?supaclive said:"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.1 -
www.beta.companyhouse.burtonalbionfc.comBailey said:It would probably be very interesting to compare these figures with similar size clubs in this division and that may give a better understanding of Sandgaards thinking but then again maybe not. It would not surprise me in the least that Charlton under Sandgaard would place the onus on the academy to provide first team players with next to nothing spent on recruits from other clubs, Airman has already pointed out that this comes with no guarantees, but I think we are already seeing that in practise.1 -
If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns._MrDick said:It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough
Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.
It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.
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So if someone was interested in buying up Sandgaards stake they're potentially looking at over £8 million to Duchatelet over 12-13 years and and paying back ex directors at some point , currently over £7 million?
Enticing. Where's that pen!!2 -
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So Taylor in on a free and we'd be laughing!MuttleyCAFC said:
My brother just texted me and asked if I thought we would win the league if we had bought Haarland. The answer is of course we would. I know it is a silly question but if you make a conservative estimate of 50 goals to the team, and most of the draws would become wins. Of course, back to reality, if we had bought 20 goals in from a half decent striker for the level, a lot of draws would be wins. Maybe not enough to win the league, but we would be up there. Football is as simple as that and Sandgaard doesn't indertsand that basic truth and he probably never will. Of course you have to get your tactics right but take that as a given.Bailey said:
That's pretty much it in my view Mutley. The sinister bit I have never bought into, I think he's made the mistake of trying run an English football club like an American business, the dismissal of trusted people is straight out of The American book of workers rights and he might find that a tribunal hearing awaits By his mistakes, interference in playing style and lack of backing his Managers to back his bold words, he has now alienated a large proportion of the supporter base. To polarise his mistakes, we should all be honest and admit if he would have bought a goal scoring forward in by the end of the window then this thread wouldn't exist and team success or failure would be where it should be, in the dressing room.We wouldn't be analysing his personal fortune and a lot of us would turn a blind eye to the sacking of staff. He continues to make the same mistakes though , see Adkins for Garner's problems and this is costing him dear and losing him any goodwill he rightly earned by saving the club.MuttleyCAFC said:
That isn't strictly true. He spent a fair bit at first but in a stupid way. Yes, he has turned off the taps when some targeted spend to fill a gaping hole was required and may have got results but the bloke is clueless when he throws his money about and clueless when he doesn't.Southbank said:
Well, he bought a football team to get it promoted then failed to spend the money on players so the club could get promoted- so he has form in that area.CAFCsayer said:
I'm not sure I believe that one... why would you sink money into something and then knowingly break a rule that you know is going to make your investment a waste of timeJ BLOCK said:
The man is an idiot.Airman Brown said:
I've been told that TS refused point blank to employ the number of academy staff specified in the regulations, so no matter what he did with buildings he was never going to succeed. This information came from a football source outside the club. I've no reason to think it isn't true, but I can't confirm it.SomervilleAddick said:
Do we know why they were rejected for cat. 1? Was it a facilities issue, or organizational/ staff? I don’t think the reasons were ever released,Airman Brown said:
The training ground has needed substantial sums spent on it to achieve category one status. TS thought he'd found a way to do it cheaper. He hasn't succeeded. No one is spending £10m plus on an asset held on a relatively short lease, so then you've got to find another training ground and start again. Similarly The Valley, which will need investment in line with an owner's ambitions, particularly the Jimmy Seed Stand. Same problem.DOUCHER said:
the bigger problem is it 'appears' to be putting off all these mega rich potential owners - utter nonsense if they were just interested in running a football clubAirman Brown said:
For the same reason the ex-directors secured their loans on the land, presumably. In any event, the problem it is giving us is that it opens the door to £1 purchasers because the club itself is worth nothing in a sale.DOUCHER said:
agreed - lets call it unviable and indeed, impossible if the football club owner doesn't quit the valley - so why are these mega rich potential investors so keen to have the ground and training ground - hasn't bothered man city's ownersAirman Brown said:
Nothing in London is "undevelopable" but some sites are more difficult than others, which affects the cost, the number and type of units feasible, and hence the value of the land for residential use. Self-evidently a plot of land with good access to main roads and a motorway is likely to be more attractive to a developer than The Valley.DOUCHER said:
well, you've always stated its virtually 'undevelopable' Airman so you can't ahve it both ways when it suits the argumentAirman Brown said:
The freehold to Millwall’s ground is publicly owned, which is more secure than a private landlord and a common model, especially in Europe. I’d have thought the actual buyers were the fantasists, as experience has shown.DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit0 -
Depends on the level of success achieved in a short space of time by the club, we have seen situations such as Ipswich where money was provided for a long time with the hope of Premiership status to offset the losses, eventually the owner pulled the plug and they like us found the level that there turnover merited.swordfish said:
If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns._MrDick said:It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough
Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.
It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.1 -
TS is full of bullshit and bravadomattinfinland said:
Fair assessmentRodneyCharltonTrotta said:We'll be "sustainable" in league one is my gut feeling.
Think we're down here for a good while now based on the transfer activity to date and that's the reality. We're not going to be throwing money at the problem like Derby and Ipswich and are gambling that Garner can do what he failed to do in previous roles and get a side promoted.
Whether you can be sustainable with operating costs of £8m a year, year on year, without income from player sales/ sell on clauses is another question.
But he's definitely downgrading expectations.
Only at Charlton can you go from talk of Europe, Premier League football and "blowing the league out of the water" to setting an expectation for being sustainable in the 3rd tier in 2 seasons.
It is what it is but think we're probably down in this league for a good while unless Garner really is a revelation and the high press ethos makes us League One's Liverpool.
The fact we have a weaker forward line than we ended the season with after Washington's departure and are now banking on an untested Leaburn and uninspiring Josh Davison as key squad players along with injury susceptible key men like Inniss and Aneke along with relatively unknown quantities in our signings so far means it might be a slog.
We will see in 2.5 weeks the strength of the squad and capability of the manager within 10 or so games will be a fair indicator I expect.
Looking forward to the new season and will get behind the manager and lads as always but expecting very little which is grim when we're in a league with Accrington and Cheltenham and Palace and Millwall continue to soar.
He even thinks he is a Rock n Roll star 🤣🤣
He will not spend the money this club requires
To reach the championship let alone the premier league. We do not score goals and we are desperately in need of a good striker and a stronger defence. Has been Tossers and loanee
players are no good for our future.
unfortunately TS is on an ego Bullshit mission
heading for league 2.3 -
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.Redhenry said:
Source?supaclive said:"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.1 -
I'd guess like me he's questioning the bold bit. "he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly."LargeAddick said:
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.Redhenry said:
Source?supaclive said:"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.3 -
All this highlights that footballers in general really are stealing a living. No disrespect to any of our players, but to get paid 2,3,4k a week to do this job, for what is a loss making entity is crazy. Add to that the level we play at is pretty poor, I think it’s criminal.The market obviously dictates this, but club’s pretty much go to the wall because of unsustainable losses, mainly down to player wages39
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And this all been exacerbated by the TV money funded Premiershit circus which plays to a completely different audience from mainstream traditional football. Only thing that surprises me is that more clubs haven't gone out of business like Bury.cabbles said:All this highlights that footballers in general really are stealing a living. No disrespect to any of our players, but to get paid 2,3,4k a week to do this job, for what is a loss making entity is crazy. Add to that the level we play at is pretty poor, I think it’s criminal.The market obviously dictates this, but club’s pretty much go to the wall because of unsustainable losses, mainly down to player wages13 -
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.LargeAddick said:
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.Redhenry said:
Source?supaclive said:"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
And got a load of likes.3 -
I think you have to look at some of the comments made and try to put the pieces together. Garner declared, two transfer windows before he had the squad he wanted. That squad would certainly involve Leaburn, Ness, Elswhere, Chin, Henry, Campbell and Clayden, most of whom would be able to handle this Division by then. Also long term contracts would coming to an end such as JFC, Innis and McGillivary. We also know that staff are having their contracts terminated. The question would be does this approach work ? Well Sandgaard’s barrier to that is that the supporters need to believe in it and also be entertained by the football on offer, the pricing needs to be attractive as does the product, at the moment we don't and it isn't .1968CAFC said:
TS is full of bullshit and bravadomattinfinland said:
Fair assessmentRodneyCharltonTrotta said:We'll be "sustainable" in league one is my gut feeling.
Think we're down here for a good while now based on the transfer activity to date and that's the reality. We're not going to be throwing money at the problem like Derby and Ipswich and are gambling that Garner can do what he failed to do in previous roles and get a side promoted.
Whether you can be sustainable with operating costs of £8m a year, year on year, without income from player sales/ sell on clauses is another question.
But he's definitely downgrading expectations.
Only at Charlton can you go from talk of Europe, Premier League football and "blowing the league out of the water" to setting an expectation for being sustainable in the 3rd tier in 2 seasons.
It is what it is but think we're probably down in this league for a good while unless Garner really is a revelation and the high press ethos makes us League One's Liverpool.
The fact we have a weaker forward line than we ended the season with after Washington's departure and are now banking on an untested Leaburn and uninspiring Josh Davison as key squad players along with injury susceptible key men like Inniss and Aneke along with relatively unknown quantities in our signings so far means it might be a slog.
We will see in 2.5 weeks the strength of the squad and capability of the manager within 10 or so games will be a fair indicator I expect.
Looking forward to the new season and will get behind the manager and lads as always but expecting very little which is grim when we're in a league with Accrington and Cheltenham and Palace and Millwall continue to soar.
He even thinks he is a Rock n Roll star 🤣🤣
He will not spend the money this club requires
To reach the championship let alone the premier league. We do not score goals and we are desperately in need of a good striker and a stronger defence. Has been Tossers and loanee
players are no good for our future.
unfortunately TS is on an ego Bullshit mission
heading for league 2.2 -
Yeah but (like with Govt. debt,) inflation -especially at today's levels - has a marked impact on the value of that money when repayment is due. It will likely be little more than a pocket full of loose change.carly burn said:So if someone was interested in buying up Sandgaards stake they're potentially looking at over £8 million to Duchatelet over 12-13 years and and paying back ex directors at some point , currently over £7 million?
Enticing. Where's that pen!!0 -
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Most clubs make losses, what I’d like to know for balance is if there was a table of all 72 EFL clubs making the most losses with 1st being closest to administration then how high would we be?1
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It’s a numbers game. There are only 20 clubs in the Premier League, and 72 clubs dreaming of joining them.swordfish said:
If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns._MrDick said:It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough
Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.
It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.0 -
Sandgaard won't be here next season I'm convinced of that.
What I don't know is wheather we will have a new owner with genuine ambition for the club or if we will get a bunch of shysters like ESI.
Never boring supporting this club.5 -
But who would buy it?
Since TS bought the club for 1.15 Million, it's had another 15 Million worth of debt attached to it2 -
Have you not been to any games this season?blackpool72 said:Sandgaard won't be here next season I'm convinced of that.
What I don't know is wheather we will have a new owner with genuine ambition for the club or if we will get a bunch of shysters like ESI.
Never boring supporting this club.30 -
The dept is on Sandgaard.benjest1989 said:But who would buy it?
Since TS bought the club for 1.15 Million, it's had another 15 Million worth of debt attached to it
No one will pay that off for him.1 -
Unfortunately yes.WSS said:
Have you not been to any games this season?blackpool72 said:Sandgaard won't be here next season I'm convinced of that.
What I don't know is wheather we will have a new owner with genuine ambition for the club or if we will get a bunch of shysters like ESI.
Never boring supporting this club.
Home and away 😣😣0 -
I suggest 2 courses of action
1) Buy a Euromillions Ticket every week so we can secure the ground and Sparrows Lane as Duchalet will sell at some point
or
2) Woo Jim Ratcliffe. No protests, booing etc. I have already emailed him offering a free ticket! Lets all do it.
My genuine thanks to TS for saving us from crooks but he's obviously spending what he can't afford1 -
We've pretty much always been insolvent, as have nearly every English club and I daresay a high percentage of clubs in Europe and perhaps world wide?_MrDick said:It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough0 -
He is cutting staff left, right and centreRedhenry said:
Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.LargeAddick said:
for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself.Redhenry said:
Source?supaclive said:"expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"
Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.
We're not unlike other clubs in that regard. Football is a crazily expensive business to be in. The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us.
Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
And got a load of likes.
The squad added free transfers in the close season
The club shop doesn't have anything in it
He borrowed £350k from a fan
If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that. Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.
We are losing millions
It's a crazy business
You have focused on one part of my post
TS is NOT a fan
He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing
We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this8
