What counts as a big chance? Whatever it is, probably more valuable than assists, which only count if the other player does their part and scores the chance.
TC and Small are vital to our play, regardless of what some might say about their end product. Just being on the pitch opens up space for others and means opponents have to think how they deal with the width and pace we have on both sides.
Still concerning how we’ll adapt if they pick up injuries, though this team will at least give it a real go.
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
He is our third highest scorer though.
Almost see Berry as the type of Forward Midfielder that I'd expect to see arriving late in the box, rather than the creative force from that forward role; Aribo for example only got five assists in 2018/19 in a very similar role but scored nine times.
Berry as a creative player needs to do more with his set pieces / corners, but also shares that responsibility with Gillesphey and Edwards... Its probably why Gilbert didnt come on last night either, as he's not got the defensive side that others have, and primarily is our set piece weapon.
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
He is our third highest scorer though.
Almost see Berry as the type of Forward Midfielder that I'd expect to see arriving late in the box, rather than the creative force from that forward role; Aribo for example only got five assists in 2018/19 in a very similar role but scored nine times.
Berry as a creative player needs to do more with his set pieces / corners, but also shares that responsibility with Gillesphey and Edwards... Its probably why Gilbert didnt come on last night either, as he's not got the defensive side that others have, and primarily is our set piece weapon.
I feel like he could've scored a lot more than five - we've created some great opportunities for him and he has missed some sitters. To his credit, he runs and he's scored some important goals. But overall I think he has been a disappointment. To drop from the prem into L1, you'd expect a bigger showing of quality in these key moments.
At 32 he's not going to improve next season, either.
I personally Berry gets a little too much grief from our fan base. He certainly has his flaws but our results have improved significantly since Jones consistently made him a starter the second half of the year. He at least plays like an attacking midfielder even if he is light weight, he has more goals/assists than any of our midfielders and most of our forwards. I would have him as the attacking mid as opposed to Anderson/Doherty//A Campbell who all started as the attacking mid at points in the fall with no success
One real benefit to Berry is his movement, he drags the opposition out of shape or just will pop up in the box. If he was more clinical he would be on double figures for goals by now
One real benefit to Berry is his movement, he drags the opposition out of shape or just will pop up in the box. If he was more clinical he would be on double figures for goals by now
I think goals is probably the aspect even he is most disappointed with.
He spoke after a recent game, saying that he likes to get into double figures, and is the target for this season. He also sounded as though he felt that there had been times where he should have scored more
I personally Berry gets a little too much grief from our fan base. He certainly has his flaws but our results have improved significantly since Jones consistently made him a starter the second half of the year. He at least plays like an attacking midfielder even if he is light weight, he has more goals/assists than any of our midfielders and most of our forwards. I would have him as the attacking mid as opposed to Anderson/Doherty//A Campbell who all started as the attacking mid at points in the fall with no success
I think he hardly gets any grief. Feel pretty much alone in calling out his performances.
If we were losing I think it would be more obvious. But he's not someone we miss when he's off the pitch. I'd guess we score a lot of goals when he's actually been subbed, so not sure how key to our wins he is.
We partly have Chuks to thank for TC's redemption arc too I reckon, a lot of the pre season content we saw seemed to be TC doing weights and strength work, and Chuks bigging him up. I reckon when Chuks retires he'll be a great coach to have around.
TC isn't perfect, but he's massively improved from the player we saw 12-18 months ago
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
OK, let's use as the base for statistical analysis, some of the criticisms of Berry that have come up in the last few games...
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
OK, let's use as the base for statistical analysis, some of the criticisms of Berry that have come up in the last few games...
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
I'm not sure I understand the point you're making... Gilbert hasn't had a header on goal, etc.. but Gilbert has created 3 big chances from a tiny amount of minutes, while Berry has created 4 in 32 games. That's a pretty shocking comparison to my mind.
It's not pivotal that he comes out of the team because we're winning. But he has been disappointing this season.
Every manager has their favourites and Berry is clearly one of NJ's, the way he talks about him you can clearly see that.
NJ was criticized at other clubs for tinkering too much with lineup and formation. His squad would go on a little bit of run of form and then he would change things strategically based on the opponent and they would lose momentum.
I am encouraged that he has kept the squad status quo given recent results. At some point he will need to sub out to keep key players fresh or if a player goes on a poor run of form just not this week.
NJ was criticized at other clubs for tinkering too much with lineup and formation. His squad would go on a little bit of run of form and then he would change things strategically based on the opponent and they would lose momentum.
I am encouraged that he has kept the squad status quo given recent results. At some point he will need to sub out to keep key players fresh or if a player goes on a poor run of form just not this week.
He was doing the same thing here earlier in the season while trying to find his best starting XI. If the SMT had sacked him post Crawley, he would’ve left SE7 with the same reputation.
One instance that comes to mind is dropping Mitchell for Blackpool at home - he got slaughtered for that when we lost. Ironic then that the now settled XI doesn’t include AM.
I watch the game and see Berry working his socks off along with Doc and Coventry. He is doing a great job. He has had a couple of games where his finishing has been below his usual standard but he is still doing well. Getting fed up with calls to drop him. Let the manager decide that FFS! He may well do so, Gilbert has looked good but I am not going to be critical of any of our players looking at the run we are on.
How far do we think TC can go? I think he has the highest ceiling in this team, and wouldn't be shocked to see him upper championship/lower prem one day.
He's strong, he's quick, his work rates are fantastic, he appears intelligent with his movements.
I think his main weakness is the finishing. If we had someone more potent and faster up top I think we would see more assists this season.
Reminding me of CBT last season, you just know when he has the ball something is going to happen.
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
OK, let's use as the base for statistical analysis, some of the criticisms of Berry that have come up in the last few games...
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
I'm not sure I understand the point you're making... Gilbert hasn't had a header on goal, etc.. but Gilbert has created 3 big chances from a tiny amount of minutes, while Berry has created 4 in 32 games. That's a pretty shocking comparison to my mind.
It's not pivotal that he comes out of the team because we're winning. But he has been disappointing this season.
Every manager has their favourites and Berry is clearly one of NJ's, the way he talks about him you can clearly see that.
And I'll say it again...
Do you have a special pass to watch the team training? Do you see the same thing as Nathan Jones sees every day?
As with the case of Mitchell (Alex), NJ has no problem dropping people if they're not performing. Maybe Gilbert is blowing out of his ar5e after 25 minutes? I don't know, but nor do you!
Jones is getting a song out of a squad that has reduced in size, and we've just won our 6th home game in a row. He must be doing something right. And Berry, whether you like it or not, has been part of that.
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
OK, let's use as the base for statistical analysis, some of the criticisms of Berry that have come up in the last few games...
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
I'm not sure I understand the point you're making... Gilbert hasn't had a header on goal, etc.. but Gilbert has created 3 big chances from a tiny amount of minutes, while Berry has created 4 in 32 games. That's a pretty shocking comparison to my mind.
It's not pivotal that he comes out of the team because we're winning. But he has been disappointing this season.
Every manager has their favourites and Berry is clearly one of NJ's, the way he talks about him you can clearly see that.
And I'll say it again...
Do you have a special pass to watch the team training? Do you see the same thing as Nathan Jones sees every day?
As with the case of Mitchell (Alex), NJ has no problem dropping people if they're not performing. Maybe Gilbert is blowing out of his ar5e after 25 minutes? I don't know, but nor do you!
Jones is getting a song out of a squad that has reduced in size, and we've just won our 6th home game in a row. He must be doing something right. And Berry, whether you like it or not, has been part of that.
I'm not calling for the immediate removal of Berry from the team (although I would be interested to see the difference Gilbert makes). I'm saying he has been average this season. I also note he's bottom of the Statbank for yesterday's game.
I bring up 'Big Chances Created' because it's a key metric for an attacking midfielder, and Berry's numbers are objectivelypoor. Gilbert, despite far, faaaaar fewer minutes, is almost matching him. That's a statistical comparison, not an opinion.
Training is important but performances in matches are what matter. And winning doesn't mean every player is playing well. We can acknowledge how good the team are doing while picking out the loose change. If a company is profitable and having a good year, do they just leave it at that? No, they try to maximise and be even better.
Nothing wrong with recognising underperformance in individual players. It's not an 'agenda' (anyone who plays well for Charlton is alright by me), it's just talking football.
ed - Berry has played 1,853 minutes. Gilbert has played 67.
Berry missed some good chances in our last two games. But he was in a position to have the chances and we know through his career that he is a goal scoring midfielder. And I noticed him working hard and closing down last night. Jones may indeed decide to start Gilbert but I see it as being great we have the options and have no issue with Berry starting. Mind you I haven't had issues or worries with Gillesphey starting or Anderson this season. If some fans had their way we wouldn't have got Gillephey's three goals which have been massive for us. And Anderson is showing his potential when he plays.
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
OK, let's use as the base for statistical analysis, some of the criticisms of Berry that have come up in the last few games...
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
I'm not sure I understand the point you're making... Gilbert hasn't had a header on goal, etc.. but Gilbert has created 3 big chances from a tiny amount of minutes, while Berry has created 4 in 32 games. That's a pretty shocking comparison to my mind.
It's not pivotal that he comes out of the team because we're winning. But he has been disappointing this season.
Every manager has their favourites and Berry is clearly one of NJ's, the way he talks about him you can clearly see that.
And I'll say it again...
Do you have a special pass to watch the team training? Do you see the same thing as Nathan Jones sees every day?
As with the case of Mitchell (Alex), NJ has no problem dropping people if they're not performing. Maybe Gilbert is blowing out of his ar5e after 25 minutes? I don't know, but nor do you!
Jones is getting a song out of a squad that has reduced in size, and we've just won our 6th home game in a row. He must be doing something right. And Berry, whether you like it or not, has been part of that.
Not digging you out specifically Steve but I think arguments like "the manager knows best" are pointless. It's a football forum for discussing football. If we applied that logic to everything we wouldn't discuss anything. People are allowed to have their opinions and discuss them ultimately it will have no bearing on what Jones does because as you say he sees more than us and makes the decisions. But still fun to discuss.
well i was very critical of Gilleshpey and felt his errors would cost us enough points to miss out on playoffs. Since then he has scored 3 goals and not really been at fault for any (i dont think he can be blamed for the worm's).
I think Berry plays ok and gets into decent positions but is still not contributing as much as i'd hoped. Wouldnt mind seeing alternatives for longer.
Mate of mine who’s a Nigel ( I know , I know ) reckons TC is on Palaces Radar, would fit when jones said teams a lot further up the pyramid were showing interest if true .
Mate of mine who’s a Nigel ( I know , I know ) reckons TC is on Palaces Radar, would fit when jones said teams a lot further up the pyramid were showing interest if true .
I like TC but would be very surprised at that. They do like a winger, but have a few already and JRS hasn't even got a kick there since being with us, and I would have him ahead of TC. Maybe if TC hit a sweeter shot/scored more.
I do feel if we are not promoted that TC, Leaburn, Small and Ramsey could all be gone by next season though which would be a tough rebuild again. Let's hope we go up and keep them all. After a successful season in the a championship and with reasonable length contracts they could be some serious money.
Mate of mine who’s a Nigel ( I know , I know ) reckons TC is on Palaces Radar, would fit when jones said teams a lot further up the pyramid were showing interest if true .
It was Millwall who were interested in the January window
I watch the game and see Berry working his socks off along with Doc and Coventry. He is doing a great job. He has had a couple of games where his finishing has been below his usual standard but he is still doing well. Getting fed up with calls to drop him. Let the manager decide that FFS! He may well do so, Gilbert has looked good but I am not going to be critical of any of our players looking at the run we are on.
Berry been excellent if only he was 2 foot taller he would most likey have another 4/5 goals ……. But like Godden , Doc and Coventry the amount of work he puts in is incredible…
Mate of mine who’s a Nigel ( I know , I know ) reckons TC is on Palaces Radar, would fit when jones said teams a lot further up the pyramid were showing interest if true .
I like TC but would be very surprised at that. They do like a winger, but have a few already and JRS hasn't even got a kick there since being with us, and I would have him ahead of TC. Maybe if TC hit a sweeter shot/scored more.
I do feel if we are not promoted that TC, Leaburn, Small and Ramsey could all be gone by next season though which would be a tough rebuild again. Let's hope we go up and keep them all. After a successful season in the a championship and with reasonable length contracts they could be some serious money.
JRS is technically miles ahead of TC, but physically TC is quite far ahead of JRS. Of course JRS is the better player at the moment. But Physical attributes are becoming more and more important in the game so I wouldn’t be that shocked if teams that high are looking at TC. If it does click for him then he could be better than JRS because he’s got the physical attributes to play at that level already
I know there’s effectively 2 years left on his contract and I was saying the opposite a few months ago but he’s becoming so integral to the team it’s probably worth us getting him on a longer deal if we can to prevent a Leaburn situation
Berry has the same number of big chances created as Coventry, who plays at the base... That is appalling.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
He is our third highest scorer though.
Almost see Berry as the type of Forward Midfielder that I'd expect to see arriving late in the box, rather than the creative force from that forward role; Aribo for example only got five assists in 2018/19 in a very similar role but scored nine times.
Berry as a creative player needs to do more with his set pieces / corners, but also shares that responsibility with Gillesphey and Edwards... Its probably why Gilbert didnt come on last night either, as he's not got the defensive side that others have, and primarily is our set piece weapon.
Berry is generally too slow to get in the box when TC and Small get behind the defenders. His set pieces are pretty crap as well.
Mate of mine who’s a Nigel ( I know , I know ) reckons TC is on Palaces Radar, would fit when jones said teams a lot further up the pyramid were showing interest if true .
It was Millwall who were interested in the January window
Comments
TC and Small are vital to our play, regardless of what some might say about their end product. Just being on the pitch opens up space for others and means opponents have to think how they deal with the width and pace we have on both sides.
Still concerning how we’ll adapt if they pick up injuries, though this team will at least give it a real go.
Gilbert's only one behind him, and he's played for barely any minutes.
Almost see Berry as the type of Forward Midfielder that I'd expect to see arriving late in the box, rather than the creative force from that forward role; Aribo for example only got five assists in 2018/19 in a very similar role but scored nine times.
Berry as a creative player needs to do more with his set pieces / corners, but also shares that responsibility with Gillesphey and Edwards... Its probably why Gilbert didnt come on last night either, as he's not got the defensive side that others have, and primarily is our set piece weapon.
At 32 he's not going to improve next season, either.
He spoke after a recent game, saying that he likes to get into double figures, and is the target for this season. He also sounded as though he felt that there had been times where he should have scored more
If we were losing I think it would be more obvious. But he's not someone we miss when he's off the pitch. I'd guess we score a lot of goals when he's actually been subbed, so not sure how key to our wins he is.
TC isn't perfect, but he's massively improved from the player we saw 12-18 months ago
"How did he manage to miss that header!" against Leyton Orient. In his (albeit limited) time on the pitch, how many headers has Gilbert had on goal? Answer: none.
"Berry fluffed his lines when he shot" against Barnsley. How many shots has Gilbert had in his time on the pitch? Answer: none.
The fact of the matter is, when you play with 1 out and out striker, you need midfielders to get up there, to take chances, and make the opposition aware of the danger from other players. Berry is doing that.
And, as I have said, NJ sees his players in training EVERY DAY. We, as fans, do not.
And, quite frankly, I do not, unlike some others, consider myself better able to do NJ's job than the man himself. Especially considering the run we are on.
Perhaps we should just accept that Jones knows what he is doing?
It's not pivotal that he comes out of the team because we're winning. But he has been disappointing this season.
Every manager has their favourites and Berry is clearly one of NJ's, the way he talks about him you can clearly see that.
He's strong, he's quick, his work rates are fantastic, he appears intelligent with his movements.
I think his main weakness is the finishing. If we had someone more potent and faster up top I think we would see more assists this season.
Reminding me of CBT last season, you just know when he has the ball something is going to happen.
Do you have a special pass to watch the team training? Do you see the same thing as Nathan Jones sees every day?
As with the case of Mitchell (Alex), NJ has no problem dropping people if they're not performing. Maybe Gilbert is blowing out of his ar5e after 25 minutes? I don't know, but nor do you!
Jones is getting a song out of a squad that has reduced in size, and we've just won our 6th home game in a row. He must be doing something right. And Berry, whether you like it or not, has been part of that.
I bring up 'Big Chances Created' because it's a key metric for an attacking midfielder, and Berry's numbers are objectively poor. Gilbert, despite far, faaaaar fewer minutes, is almost matching him. That's a statistical comparison, not an opinion.
Training is important but performances in matches are what matter. And winning doesn't mean every player is playing well. We can acknowledge how good the team are doing while picking out the loose change. If a company is profitable and having a good year, do they just leave it at that? No, they try to maximise and be even better.
Nothing wrong with recognising underperformance in individual players. It's not an 'agenda' (anyone who plays well for Charlton is alright by me), it's just talking football.
ed - Berry has played 1,853 minutes. Gilbert has played 67.
I think Berry plays ok and gets into decent positions but is still not contributing as much as i'd hoped. Wouldnt mind seeing alternatives for longer.
I like TC but would be very surprised at that. They do like a winger, but have a few already and JRS hasn't even got a kick there since being with us, and I would have him ahead of TC. Maybe if TC hit a sweeter shot/scored more.
I do feel if we are not promoted that TC, Leaburn, Small and Ramsey could all be gone by next season though which would be a tough rebuild again. Let's hope we go up and keep them all. After a successful season in the a championship and with reasonable length contracts they could be some serious money.
Feels like a Brentford or relegated Prem side type target.