Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Most of the deaths were due to infrastructure built for the world cup than the actual stadiums which is a far larger project. I've worked in construction in the UK for 15 years and have only experienced one death during that time on one of my jobs, which was due to a non-work related suicide. I've worked with people who have worked in construction in the Middle East and their experience is vastly different.
This I agree with - and the article in The Guardian is a bit mis-leading, if I remember rightly it was across the Middle East on a number of projects over a 15 year period. Not just the World Cup.
As you can sense, I am getting a bit frustrated by only half the story being told or people actually knowing the full story.
The press will only tell you what you want to hear, and what ever sells the stories or to create an agenda.
Err, no.
Just in Qatar not across the middle east. Over a 10 year period not 15 year period. The 6,500 workers who died were all from Sri Lanka, Pakistan, India and Nepal. The Guardian (which I am not a fan of by the way) didn't say that they had all died during cinstruction of the world cup. Just the above. It also provided a response from the Qarai Government to the effect that the deaths were not outsized given the size of the ex-pat workforce.
I know all this because I read the article before posting. You could have done the same instead of relying on memory making your frustration at "half the story being told or people actually knowing the full story" a bit ironic.
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Nobody knows how many people died building the stadia. We do know that 15,000 foreign workers died in Qatar (from Quatar's own statistics) during the construction period but we don't know what projects or sectors they were working in. The fact that Qatar are not saying how many died during construction should really tell you all you know (they admit to three specific deaths).
By contrast nobody died in the construction of the London Olympic Park.
Unfortunately that statement is not correct.
"In contrast London 2012 is considered the safest Olympic build in history. It recorded 0 fatalities, with a reported injury rate of 0.17 per 100,000 person-hours – far below the 0.55 building industry average in the UK. The effort lasted four years and was completed on time and under budget."
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Most of the deaths were due to infrastructure built for the world cup than the actual stadiums which is a far larger project. I've worked in construction in the UK for 15 years and have only experienced one death during that time on one of my jobs, which was due to a non-work related suicide. I've worked with people who have worked in construction in the Middle East and their experience is vastly different.
This I agree with - and the article in The Guardian is a bit mis-leading, if I remember rightly it was across the Middle East on a number of projects over a 15 year period. Not just the World Cup.
As you can sense, I am getting a bit frustrated by only half the story being told or people actually knowing the full story.
The press will only tell you what you want to hear, and what ever sells the stories or to create an agenda.
This conversation is reminding me of the pandemic! There are official statistics with no bias, look at those free from any media BS.
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Most of the deaths were due to infrastructure built for the world cup than the actual stadiums which is a far larger project. I've worked in construction in the UK for 15 years and have only experienced one death during that time on one of my jobs, which was due to a non-work related suicide. I've worked with people who have worked in construction in the Middle East and their experience is vastly different.
This I agree with - and the article in The Guardian is a bit mis-leading, if I remember rightly it was across the Middle East on a number of projects over a 15 year period. Not just the World Cup.
As you can sense, I am getting a bit frustrated by only half the story being told or people actually knowing the full story.
The press will only tell you what you want to hear, and what ever sells the stories or to create an agenda.
wrong again.
"More than 6,500 migrant workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have died in Qatar since it won the right to host the World Cup 10 years ago, the Guardian can reveal.
The total death toll is significantly higher, as these figures do not include deaths from a number of countries which send large numbers of workers to Qatar, including the Philippines and Kenya. Deaths that occurred in the final months of 2020 are also not included."
And all killed directly as a result of construction? Please this article as it is a while since I would have read it.
I like how you've slipped that word directly in there to give yourself a bit of wiggle room.
If 6,500+ working age migrant workers all drop dead in a 10-year span, that is an outrage regardless of how or why it's happened.
Would you consider suicide or a heart attack at home directly as a result from their occupation? Because Qatar wouldn't.
No it would depend? The way the Covid deaths were being registered! So depends on what side of the fence you sit.
not sure we will ever know the full picture.. 650 a year out of 10,000s deaths that could consist of anything from heart attack, suicide, underlining medical conditions, hit by bus, murder on the camp sits or at work, what ever you want to call it..
Would be interested to know how many people in U.K. have died from work relented illness, suicide or on site over same period, would be interested to know.
how many road workers are killed a year? How many rail workers?
"According to the data, 12,412 immigrant men died in Qatar between 2011 and 2020, nearly half of whom (5,935) were between 20 and 50 years old, which is relatively young."
"In a study published in July 2019 in the medical journal Cardiology, an international team of researchers noted a strong correlation between temperatures and cardiovascular events recorded among Nepalese migrant workers in Qatar. "The pronounced mortality from cardiovascular events during hot seasons is most likely due to intense heat stress," said the researchers, who estimated that about 35% of fatal cardiac arrests could have been prevented by better protecting workers from heat."
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Nobody knows how many people died building the stadia. We do know that 15,000 foreign workers died in Qatar (from Quatar's own statistics) during the construction period but we don't know what projects or sectors they were working in. The fact that Qatar are not saying how many died during construction should really tell you all you know (they admit to three specific deaths).
By contrast nobody died in the construction of the London Olympic Park.
Unfortunately that statement is not correct.
"In contrast London 2012 is considered the safest Olympic build in history. It recorded 0 fatalities, with a reported injury rate of 0.17 per 100,000 person-hours – far below the 0.55 building industry average in the UK. The effort lasted four years and was completed on time and under budget."
What is unfair is that the Guardian article is widely quoted elsewhere as demonstrating that there were 6.500 deaths to workers on World Cup construction sites. The article makes no such claim. Without reliable official statistics we simply don't know what the figure is but it is very unlikely to be anywhere near as many as 6,500.
The way most of those Middle East countries have built their infrastructure etc and treat their cheap labour foreign workers is utter filth and a reason I won’t be going out there
Having supported charities that have helped migrant workers and their families come to terms with the shit they’ve been put through I’m gutted this tournament is taking place where it is .
Of course nowhere is perfect but some less so than others .
that’s my grown up piece for the year
So what is the difference between Eastern Europeans, working on the farms and factories in the UK that live in 30 year old caravans with no running water or heaters?
UK press seem to ignore that..
I am not defending the way the workers are treated here, but they are certainly looked after a lot better than you think, and they are creating a better live for their families, and have a better standard of living than they would in the countries they have been coming from. Not sure that can be said for the farm workers..
UK press seem to have away of not having all the facts in place, or printing both sides of the stories!
I thought that the workers in Qatar had no choice where they can live and have their passports taken off them, as well as a portion of their wages automatically deducted?
Unless that is all made up too?
No choice where to live: True (Most of the time its provided accommodation, as is my situation at the moment) Have passports taken: False....its actually against the law here to withold someones passport (aside from initial residency visa process). Portion of wages automatically deducted: Not normal at all....... Only reason would be if they owe a recruiter (which unfortunately would be a fellow national)
That should not happen either, the companies should be the entities paying the recruiters, not the employees.
Always well and good, unless it’s standard practice. I know several Dutch people who paid a % of their salary every month for a full year.
You are talking about jobs in China, right? I cannot imagine what sector of business in the Netherlands would allow that, except in the redlight districts of course. It was happening here maybe 15 years ago when the big car manufacturers needed immigrant labour, fast, but the government stamped it out fast by introducing a mandatory licencing system for “recruitment agencies”. Caused businesses like mine a few headaches when it came in.
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Nobody knows how many people died building the stadia. We do know that 15,000 foreign workers died in Qatar (from Quatar's own statistics) during the construction period but we don't know what projects or sectors they were working in. The fact that Qatar are not saying how many died during construction should really tell you all you know (they admit to three specific deaths).
By contrast nobody died in the construction of the London Olympic Park.
Unfortunately that statement is not correct.
"In contrast London 2012 is considered the safest Olympic build in history. It recorded 0 fatalities, with a reported injury rate of 0.17 per 100,000 person-hours – far below the 0.55 building industry average in the UK. The effort lasted four years and was completed on time and under budget."
What is unfair is that the Guardian article is widely quoted elsewhere as demonstrating that there were 6.500 deaths to workers on World Cup construction sites. The article makes no such claim. Without reliable official statistics we simply don't know what the figure is but it is very unlikely to be anywhere near as many as 6,500.
This we can certainly all agree with.. My point in all of this, is the media have an agenda, and want it to shed bad light on Qatar and the World Cup. Let the Arab world have it’s moment!
A lot of good stuff that the World Cup has brought to the region and the steps the Middle East has made over the last 10 years always seem to go missing.
good debate ladies and gents. Now let’s enjoy it, and hopefully England go well!!
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Dressed all in black surely not the famed Holmesdale Ultras?
It was Millwall in disguise
It was West Ham fans pretending to be Millwall fans who were pretending not to be Millwall fans. I was there. I saw it. There were Pompey fans there as well but they was only there because of the pretend Millwall fans in attendance.
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prey
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
I was thrown out of Barasti’s on a Thursday night once for “dancing provocatively” with my mates wife after a brunch. Trust me I’m no Patrick Swayze…
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
I have no respect for countries where homosexuality is illegal or may even carry a death sentence. I'm tired of the pathetic excuses.
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
I was thrown out of Barasti’s on a Thursday night once for “dancing provocatively” with my mates wife after a brunch. Trust me I’m no Patrick Swayze…
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
I was thrown out of Barasti’s on a Thursday night once for “dancing provocatively” with my mates wife after a brunch. Trust me I’m no Patrick Swayze…
Personally I’ve no real truck with any of it other than the clear standards inefficiencies that have led to so many needless deaths in stadium construction. That to me is the only thing people should be kicking off with Qatar.
All ire for everything else should be directed at FIFA for selecting them. The heat, homosexuality, alcohol and human rights issues were always going to be contentious and should have ruled them out from the get go.
Qatar are perfectly right to expect visitors to their country to abide with the rules of their land. We would expect the same here. Whether we agree with their rules or not is a separate argument but irrelevant in this case. If you are are against them, don’t go.
I would be interested to see the actual figure of people that died in the stadium build.
Shame the Qatar government will never release those numbers truthfully.
They probably don't know the number and don't care.
So you are just going to believe what’s in the British press? And publish article that they know will sell, and that people are against the World Cup being in Qatar.
Unfortunately people have lost there lives and it’s very sad. But people die in building sites, roads and construction all around the world. For whatever reason, people seem to think it’s 1000s that have lost their lives building stadiums, I would be extremely surprised.
Most of the deaths were due to infrastructure built for the world cup than the actual stadiums which is a far larger project. I've worked in construction in the UK for 15 years and have only experienced one death during that time on one of my jobs, which was due to a non-work related suicide. I've worked with people who have worked in construction in the Middle East and their experience is vastly different.
This I agree with - and the article in The Guardian is a bit mis-leading, if I remember rightly it was across the Middle East on a number of projects over a 15 year period. Not just the World Cup.
As you can sense, I am getting a bit frustrated by only half the story being told or people actually knowing the full story.
The press will only tell you what you want to hear, and what ever sells the stories or to create an agenda.
wrong again.
"More than 6,500 migrant workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have died in Qatar since it won the right to host the World Cup 10 years ago, the Guardian can reveal.
The total death toll is significantly higher, as these figures do not include deaths from a number of countries which send large numbers of workers to Qatar, including the Philippines and Kenya. Deaths that occurred in the final months of 2020 are also not included."
And all killed directly as a result of construction? Please this article as it is a while since I would have read it.
I like how you've slipped that word directly in there to give yourself a bit of wiggle room.
If 6,500+ working age migrant workers all drop dead in a 10-year span, that is an outrage regardless of how or why it's happened.
Would you consider suicide or a heart attack at home directly as a result from their occupation? Because Qatar wouldn't.
No it would depend? The way the Covid deaths were being registered! So depends on what side of the fence you sit.
not sure we will ever know the full picture.. 650 a year out of 10,000s deaths that could consist of anything from heart attack, suicide, underlining medical conditions, hit by bus, murder on the camp sits or at work, what ever you want to call it..
Would be interested to know how many people in U.K. have died from work relented illness, suicide or on site over same period, would be interested to know.
how many road workers are killed a year? How many rail workers?
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
Yes, you are right to pick me up on that, now piss off, you know what I meant and by highlighting my forgetfulness of fully half the worlds population you’re just making yourself as bad as me…
Pick up on your previous post - I have living in the region for 8 years, never once have I felt uneasy or uncomfortable here - neither has my wife. In fact, I would go as far as saying one of the safest cities in the world. in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
Dubai has changed a lot in the 8 years I have been. Here, it is becoming more and more liberal. Pubs and bars don’t have to be part of an hotel any more, open front rather than closed off in tourist areas.
All they ask is to respect the culture, religion and places of prayer
I was thrown out of Barasti’s on a Thursday night once for “dancing provocatively” with my mates wife after a brunch. Trust me I’m no Patrick Swayze…
Wow. Barasti apart from the dark side of town is the most provocative place in town.
The way most of those Middle East countries have built their infrastructure etc and treat their cheap labour foreign workers is utter filth and a reason I won’t be going out there
Having supported charities that have helped migrant workers and their families come to terms with the shit they’ve been put through I’m gutted this tournament is taking place where it is .
Of course nowhere is perfect but some less so than others .
that’s my grown up piece for the year
So what is the difference between Eastern Europeans, working on the farms and factories in the UK that live in 30 year old caravans with no running water or heaters?
UK press seem to ignore that..
I am not defending the way the workers are treated here, but they are certainly looked after a lot better than you think, and they are creating a better live for their families, and have a better standard of living than they would in the countries they have been coming from. Not sure that can be said for the farm workers..
UK press seem to have away of not having all the facts in place, or printing both sides of the stories!
I thought that the workers in Qatar had no choice where they can live and have their passports taken off them, as well as a portion of their wages automatically deducted?
Unless that is all made up too?
No choice where to live: True (Most of the time its provided accommodation, as is my situation at the moment) Have passports taken: False....its actually against the law here to withold someones passport (aside from initial residency visa process). Portion of wages automatically deducted: Not normal at all....... Only reason would be if they owe a recruiter (which unfortunately would be a fellow national)
That should not happen either, the companies should be the entities paying the recruiters, not the employees.
Always well and good, unless it’s standard practice. I know several Dutch people who paid a % of their salary every month for a full year.
You are talking about jobs in China, right? I cannot imagine what sector of business in the Netherlands would allow that, except in the redlight districts of course. It was happening here maybe 15 years ago when the big car manufacturers needed immigrant labour, fast, but the government stamped it out fast by introducing a mandatory licencing system for “recruitment agencies”. Caused businesses like mine a few headaches when it came in.
Jobs in China, for teachers recruited in Holland by Dutch recruiters.
A friend was sending this money back every single month and I asked him what would happen if he just didn’t bother, he had no real answer, it’s not like our employer was going to fire him over it, they’d lose nothing.
So for me, should the World Cup be there? No Should there be any football reason that their bid was ahead of USA/anyone else’s bid? No (and I’m nonplussed by the USA thinking it’s a footballing nation)
Is Qatar any worse than Dubai/Ab Dabs etc? No, not really Do I think more or less than 7,000 migrant labourers died during the construction of the stadiums? I think more, I think the gov’t won’t even know the real numbers. All the middle-eastern countries treat migrant labour (apologies, non-white migrant labour) appallingly whether that’s at the low end where you live in a nameless camp and are bussed to a different (and differently dangerous) building site every day and treated like shit before being bussed “home”, having random deductions from your salary by the people that keep your passport before allowing you to send some money home and keep enough for broth right up to the “executive end” immigrant who just has to be comfortable with being paid half as much in the same role as a white ex-pat (even though they’re likely better qualified)
Have I ever felt unsafe there? No, I’ve probably only really ever felt unsafe in Moscow, parts of NYC and um, Leicester.
Would I feel unsafe there if I was LGBTQ+?
Yes, not from a being beaten perspective, more from a worry about arrest/having my passport removed etc. But I’d feel the same anywhere in the UAE. I had the current Mrs Fumbluff with me in Ab Dabs years ago before we were married and she felt very uncomfortable, even bought a costume jewellery ring so we’d appear married or more importantly she’d appear married when out on her own.
There’s shitloads of problems across the whole region right and none of them are getting fixed by having the World Cup there but then none of them are getting fixed by me not watching it either.
It is what it is, hopefully it being there and all the conversations around it might start conversations and hopefully will embarrass Fifa and the Qatari rulers.
So I will watch it of course and I will look forward to every rainbow armband, every message written on a t-shirt shown direct to camera after a goal and anything else that will upset the hosts and the crooked organisers.
For me the icing on the cake would be England winning it and as soon as Harry’s passed the trophy he gives a big old tongue sandwich to Raheem (if he makes the cut) with the whole world watching on TV.
Peace and Love.
Great post. Agree with nearly all of it.
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
I guess it's because football seemingly comes fifth (or maybe fourth - not sure about ice hockey?) to other sports in popularity, that some people have this perception, Chizz? It may be the second sport in a few countries, where wife-carrying or camel racing is supposedly the national sport , but it isn't so far down the pecking order as it is in the USA?
Also the way the MLS is set up isn't how we think professional football should work.
Personally I do think the USA is now a football nation, unlike Qatar.
Think it is disingenuous to use the attendance figures from 1994 to evidence the USA as footballing nation a lot of that was due to them having more stadia with high capacities compared to other nations.
The sport with the highest average attendance in the UK is the NFL Does that make us an NFL nation?
we have won Olympic and world medals at hockey - does that make us a Hockey nation ?
that said, like Algarve, I do think they are a football nation now (but not then)
I think lots of people don’t want to admit that the US is a footballing nation as it suits their pre-conceived notions.
Not sure what you're implying but it depends on what you mean by footballing nation. It's far down their pecking list and if they were to take the sport very seriously they would be in the mix for winning the world cup most tournaments, which thankfully isn't the case! I don't view Japan as a footballing nation either for the season reason, it's far less popular than baseball. However, both countries have world class players and a fairly well attended domestic league. Both world cups were very well attended as well, probably more so than Euro 96.
What is unfair is that the Guardian article is widely quoted elsewhere as demonstrating that there were 6.500 deaths to workers on World Cup construction sites. The article makes no such claim. Without reliable official statistics we simply don't know what the figure is but it is very unlikely to be anywhere near as many as 6,500.
This we can certainly all agree with.. My point in all of this, is the media have an agenda, and want it to shed bad light on Qatar and the World Cup. Let the Arab world have it’s moment!
A lot of good stuff that the World Cup has brought to the region and the steps the Middle East has made over the last 10 years always seem to go missing.
good debate ladies and gents. Now let’s enjoy it, and hopefully England go well!!
This is a common generalisation. It has an element of truth to it, but is powered up by a general if understandable ignorance about journalism.
There are many kinds of journalists, just as there are many kinds of lawyers. (Many lawyers are fine upstanding individuals, and some are, well, Chris Farnell). Furthermore most journalists are employees of private companies. These companies need to try to make a profit from journalism. The exception is the BBC. Unfortunately a large number of people moan about paying for the BBC, the only UK medium required not to have an "agenda". In truth though an "agenda" is simply what that private company thinks its customers will be most engaged by. Obviously the customers of the Times and of the Sun are quite different, even though both titles are owned by Rupert Murdoch. In addition, when we are talking about international topics, a medium which serves the British market is inevitably influenced by the attitudes and mores of the national market it serves. So any UK medium looking at the World Cup will do so in a different way to a medium which serves, say, Ghana.
It's also true that the amount of "serious" journalism will be driven by the education level of the medium's customers. Then comes the politics. The fact is that newspapers have always decided that they will serve customers with a certain view of the world, and in most cases that tradition in the UK papers goes back 100 years or more (The Sun is an interesting exception). This is where the "agenda" accusation comes in. In many cases the 'agenda" means something that person may prefer not to hear about because it disturbs their world-view. This works on the left as well as the right of politics. It's perfectly reasonable if, say, The Times focuses on big trade union leaders. I'd simply ask that people judge each story on its merits, that is to say, does a given article, in a medium with a track-record of tackling serious issues, persuade you that it is well -researched? This is what @Jints has done in the case of the Guardian's reporting of the issues in Qatar 👏. That's quite different to "believing all the negative stories". And it's also good that we have Lifers on the ground who are in pole position to challenge the lazier reporting, because yes, there is plenty of that too. But there always was. If you watch the just concluded C4 series on Italia 90, you will see how the UK media's general attitude to England - both team and fans did a complete 360 degree pivot following Platty's 180 degree pivot for the winner against Belgium. Over time, the truth will out about Qatar,, and maybe it might be different and better than we suppose now, but only if everything is discussed and scrutinised will we be able to prevent future World Cups from being awarded in corrupt ways on flimsy self-serving criteria. And given that the FBI has already done more than anyone could reasonably expected, our best hopes for sorting this shit out rest with journalists.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/28/olympic-stadium-stratford-london-man-found-dead
Regardless of the country, its sad that anyone has to lose their life just for doing their job.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/11/15/world-cup-2022-the-difficulty-with-estimating-the-number-of-deaths-on-qatar-construction-sites_6004375_8.html
"According to the data, 12,412 immigrant men died in Qatar between 2011 and 2020, nearly half of whom (5,935) were between 20 and 50 years old, which is relatively young."
"In a study published in July 2019 in the medical journal Cardiology, an international team of researchers noted a strong correlation between temperatures and cardiovascular events recorded among Nepalese migrant workers in Qatar. "The pronounced mortality from cardiovascular events during hot seasons is most likely due to intense heat stress," said the researchers, who estimated that about 35% of fatal cardiac arrests could have been prevented by better protecting workers from heat."
good debate ladies and gents. Now let’s enjoy it, and hopefully England go well!!
But I would like to take exception to your querying whether the United States is a football nation.
There have been ten World Cups (men and women) this century. Brazil, Spain, France and Japan have each won a version of the World Cup once; Germany and the United States, twice.
The highest ever aggregate attendance in a World Cup was in the United States, when 3,587,538 turned up to the watch games in the 1994 World Cup, with an average of 68,991 at each match, another record.
If a country ends up as champions more frequently than almost every other team; if its Men's World Cup matches (in 1994) are attended by more than any other Men's World Cup; if its Women's World Cup matches (in 1999) had an average attendance of 37,944, which is more than any other Women's World Cup; and if it holds the record for the highest attendance at a Women's World Cup match, of 90,185; if a nation won its first two Olympic football medals eighty years before Brazil won its first; and, while there's currently only one Olympic Games in which the United States' Women's team hasn't won a medal; then it's probably, on reflection, time to admit that the United States is "a football nation".
in terms for sexuality can’t speak for other places in the region. LGBTQ is something that is growing here, I know a good number that live here comfortably and open about the sexuality..
Couples openly walk around holding hands, showing sign of affection, with out going over the top!
No offence intended
Also the way the MLS is set up isn't how we think professional football should work.
Personally I do think the USA is now a football nation, unlike Qatar.
a lot of that was due to them having more stadia with high capacities compared to other nations.
The sport with the highest average attendance in the UK is the NFL
Does that make us an NFL nation?
we have won Olympic and world medals at hockey - does that make us a Hockey nation ?
that said, like Algarve, I do think they are a football nation now (but not then)
There are many kinds of journalists, just as there are many kinds of lawyers. (Many lawyers are fine upstanding individuals, and some are, well, Chris Farnell). Furthermore most journalists are employees of private companies. These companies need to try to make a profit from journalism. The exception is the BBC. Unfortunately a large number of people moan about paying for the BBC, the only UK medium required not to have an "agenda". In truth though an "agenda" is simply what that private company thinks its customers will be most engaged by. Obviously the customers of the Times and of the Sun are quite different, even though both titles are owned by Rupert Murdoch. In addition, when we are talking about international topics, a medium which serves the British market is inevitably influenced by the attitudes and mores of the national market it serves. So any UK medium looking at the World Cup will do so in a different way to a medium which serves, say, Ghana.
It's also true that the amount of "serious" journalism will be driven by the education level of the medium's customers. Then comes the politics. The fact is that newspapers have always decided that they will serve customers with a certain view of the world, and in most cases that tradition in the UK papers goes back 100 years or more (The Sun is an interesting exception). This is where the "agenda" accusation comes in. In many cases the 'agenda" means something that person may prefer not to hear about because it disturbs their world-view. This works on the left as well as the right of politics. It's perfectly reasonable if, say, The Times focuses on big trade union leaders. I'd simply ask that people judge each story on its merits, that is to say, does a given article, in a medium with a track-record of tackling serious issues, persuade you that it is well -researched? This is what @Jints has done in the case of the Guardian's reporting of the issues in Qatar 👏. That's quite different to "believing all the negative stories". And it's also good that we have Lifers on the ground who are in pole position to challenge the lazier reporting, because yes, there is plenty of that too. But there always was. If you watch the just concluded C4 series on Italia 90, you will see how the UK media's general attitude to England - both team and fans did a complete 360 degree pivot following Platty's 180 degree pivot for the winner against Belgium. Over time, the truth will out about Qatar,, and maybe it might be different and better than we suppose now, but only if everything is discussed and scrutinised will we be able to prevent future World Cups from being awarded in corrupt ways on flimsy self-serving criteria. And given that the FBI has already done more than anyone could reasonably expected, our best hopes for sorting this shit out rest with journalists.