We're losing the 50/50 games under Southgate and that ultimately isn't all down to bad luck.
So you agree that some of it is down to bad luck.
I think so too. One moment of bad luck in the game and they score; five missed good chances down to poor execution from individuals and we lose a game 1-0 that we could have won 5-1. Nothing Southgate can do about one of the best strikers in the world missing a penalty.
That's football.
We've lost our last three 50/50 games and that isn't good enough however you measure it. We shouldn't have lost to Croatia, Italy and France.
We're losing the 50/50 games under Southgate and that ultimately isn't all down to bad luck.
So you agree that some of it is down to bad luck.
I think so too. One moment of bad luck in the game and they score; five missed good chances down to poor execution from individuals and we lose a game 1-0 that we could have won 5-1. Nothing Southgate can do about one of the best strikers in the world missing a penalty.
That's football.
We've lost our last three 50/50 games and that isn't good enough however you measure it. We shouldn't have lost to Croatia, Italy and France.
You could argue we drew with two of them...
Before this run we lost all our 50/50 games for 50 years and only had about 6 or 7 of them.
How many 50/50 games (I am using that losley for consistency because I don't think theyvall where 50/50) have France won and lost in that time? They lost to the first decent team they played in 14, 16 and 20(1).
Almost by definition at least 4 teams will go out against the first decent team they play against.
We're losing the 50/50 games under Southgate and that ultimately isn't all down to bad luck.
So you agree that some of it is down to bad luck.
I think so too. One moment of bad luck in the game and they score; five missed good chances down to poor execution from individuals and we lose a game 1-0 that we could have won 5-1. Nothing Southgate can do about one of the best strikers in the world missing a penalty.
That's football.
We've lost our last three 50/50 games and that isn't good enough however you measure it. We shouldn't have lost to Croatia, Italy and France.
You could argue we drew with two of them...
Before this run we lost all our 50/50 games for 50 years and only had about 6 or 7 of them.
How many 50/50 games (I am using that losley for consistency because I don't think theyvall where 50/50) have France won and lost in that time? They lost to the first decent team they played in 14, 16 and 20(1).
Almost by definition at least 4 teams will go out against the first decent team they play against.
To be fair I think we had a better team than either Croatia or Italy and we were on a par with France. We lost all three games - in 90 minutes, extra time or pens it amounts to the same.
No tournament wins since 1966 is pretty appalling and I can't see it happening under Southgate. He might have done better than some managers but ultimately we haven't won a tournament.
You need to take the opportunities when they present thenselves. Hopefully Southgate will lead us to victory in 2024.
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
We're losing the 50/50 games under Southgate and that ultimately isn't all down to bad luck.
So you agree that some of it is down to bad luck.
I think so too. One moment of bad luck in the game and they score; five missed good chances down to poor execution from individuals and we lose a game 1-0 that we could have won 5-1. Nothing Southgate can do about one of the best strikers in the world missing a penalty.
That's football.
We've lost our last three 50/50 games and that isn't good enough however you measure it. We shouldn't have lost to Croatia, Italy and France.
You could argue we drew with two of them...
Before this run we lost all our 50/50 games for 50 years and only had about 6 or 7 of them.
How many 50/50 games (I am using that losley for consistency because I don't think theyvall where 50/50) have France won and lost in that time? They lost to the first decent team they played in 14, 16 and 20(1).
Almost by definition at least 4 teams will go out against the first decent team they play against.
To be fair I think we had a better team than either Croatia or Italy and we were on a par with France. We lost all three games - in 90 minutes, extra time or pens it amounts to the same.
No tournament wins since 1966 is pretty appalling and I can't see it happening under Southgate. He might have done better than some managers but ultimately we haven't won a tournament.
You need to take the opportunities when they present thenselves. Hopefully Southgate will lead us to victory in 2024.
You think a Midfield three of Henderson | Alli | Lingard are better than Modric | Rakitic | Brozovic?
It was in the Midfield that we lost against Croatia - By god we had Ashley Young playing Left Wing-Back that tournament, Southgate deserves credit for getting that squad as far as we did, even if we did "only" beat Colombia and Sweden
France would have torn that squad apart even if we had of got past Croatia.
Then we'd be moaning that Southgate couldnt cope with a Final, given we "lost" last summer too
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
They are England professionals. They didn't want to lose either game. The 2nd of the two maybe more dead than the 1st. Either way, we lost three times. Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup.
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
They are England professionals. They didn't want to lose either game. The 2nd of the two maybe more dead than the 1st. Either way, we lost three times. Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup.
As I predicted earlier - "ah yes but that [2021] was the worst German team in XX years, so doesn't count".
It is interesting reading the twists and turns that are gone through to prove yourselves "right" - "we were fortunate" to make the semis in 2018 because we lost three games. One of them was that semi, and the other came after the semi. Who do you think you are fooling?
Hoof_it - you ignored CAFC43v3rs points about other teams and their losses. And you seemed to have backtracked on your admission that we had been unlucky at times too?
If you don't think we were unlucky on Saturday, you were watching a different game to me.
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
They are England professionals. They didn't want to lose either game. The 2nd of the two maybe more dead than the 1st. Either way, we lost three times. Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup.
As I predicted earlier - "ah yes but that [2021] was the worst German team in XX years, so doesn't count".
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
They are England professionals. They didn't want to lose either game. The 2nd of the two maybe more dead than the 1st. Either way, we lost three times. Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup.
As I predicted earlier - "ah yes but that [2021] was the worst German team in XX years, so doesn't count".
That was the Euros.... NOT The World Cup?.....
"Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup." is what you wrote in the post I responded too. I have since edited it to add a little more. Again - selctive. We beat a major nation at the second biggest tournament in the world, so we ignore it.
I wont change the mind of any of you, of course. But others hopefully will see a little balance.
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
They are England professionals. They didn't want to lose either game. The 2nd of the two maybe more dead than the 1st. Either way, we lost three times. Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup.
As I predicted earlier - "ah yes but that [2021] was the worst German team in XX years, so doesn't count".
That was the Euros.... NOT The World Cup?.....
"Doesn't change we haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match since 1966 in the World Cup." is what you wrote in the post I responded too. I have since edited it to add a little more. Again - selctive. We beat a major nation at the second biggest tournament in the world, so we ignore it.
I wont change the mind of any of you, of course. But others hopefully will see a little balance.
But I said :
Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
So I'm not sure what was wrong with what I've said either?
We lost THREE times in 2018..... so actually making the semi's we were fortunate. We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966 Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors Will we win a major tournament with him No In my opinion Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
Both Belgium games were practically dead rubbers. I mean, nobody takes a third place playoff seriously.
Possibly the most pointless game ever. Players don't want it, fans don't want it, no one is interested. I'm amazed it hasn't been scrapped by now.
We're losing the 50/50 games under Southgate and that ultimately isn't all down to bad luck.
does the weight of expectation from the English press and public lead to a lack of 'coolness; by some players, especially in front of goal as well as a reluctance to make 'risky' passes ?
There is no denying that England have under-achieved at major tournaments. However, I don’t think we have under-achieved with Southgate manager. We just haven’t done enough, or been lucky enough, to win it. I believe having him as manager at Euro 24 will give us the best opportunity.
Definitely believe Southgate should get another tournament. We could and probably should have beaten France the other night. Its not sour grapes but with a ref who wasn't a complete moron and a kinder bounce of the ball (even Giroud's header probably wouldn't have gone in without hitting Slabhead) we may have been looking forward to a semi-final tonight. Such fine margins and I feel we're improving with the experience of each tournament.
If another nation would have spotted Saka getting booted off the ball in the opening 30 minutes with the ref giving nothing, they would have turned their attentions to Mbappe + Griezmann and done exactly the same back to them.
We play too nice and always act so shocked when other teams step over the line in order to win.
If another nation would have spotted Saka getting booted off the ball in the opening 30 minutes with the ref giving nothing, they would have turned their attentions to Mbappe + Griezmann and done exactly the same back to them.
We play too nice and always act so shocked when other teams step over the line in order to win.
Given how the referee was, I wont be surprised had the reactions been different had we started making similar offences - Going by the BBC live text updates, Maguire committed just one foul all game, and got a booking for it
Tchouaméni | Griezmann committed seven fouls between them, only Griezmann got a booking
Really interesting to read the post match analysis of Rob Draper…
Yes England dominated the game, especially second half. Yes that’s partly a reflection of the fact France let you play that way because that’s their plan against big team (see Belgium semi 2018, Euro 2016 run) and Yes, that doesn’t mean France had everything their own way and there was a twenty minute spell where we had them on the ropes but couldn’t find the goal to kill them off.
I wholeheartedly agree with him that the only thing Southgate could’ve done better, in retrospect, is get the subs on while we were in the ascendancy. But I can also see why, in the moment, Southgate didn’t want to interrupt the flow of all the good stuff the team had been doing.
If another nation would have spotted Saka getting booted off the ball in the opening 30 minutes with the ref giving nothing, they would have turned their attentions to Mbappe + Griezmann and done exactly the same back to them.
We play too nice and always act so shocked when other teams step over the line in order to win.
Given how the referee was, I wont be surprised had the reactions been different had we started making similar offences - Going by the BBC live text updates, Maguire committed just one foul all game, and got a booking for it
Tchouaméni | Griezmann committed seven fouls between them, only Griezmann got a booking
Agree with this. Entirely possible the referee would have treated England differently to France.
Curbs would have cleared out all the cliques and we'd have had a team full of players from Leicester, Spurs, West Ham etc. And they couldn't have done much worse than the rubbish McLaren and Capello put out
I have had a few disagreements post match because I honestly don't believe the ref was a cheat. Refs are trying to address the issue of players going down too easily and I thik some are better at this than others. The Saka incident leading up to their opener was definitely a foul but the ref clearly saw the contact and decided Saka played for it. He may have but some players rightly feel they have to make it obvious they have been fouled and some refs don't get this. That is why it wouldn't have been reviewed as the ref saw contact so whilst IMO he got it wrong, he didn't miss it.
The penalty which wasn't given was exactly the same IMO. If you give an edict to refs that they have to give less fouls you are basically telling them to ignore some fouls which is what the ref did and indeed I am seeing it during our games too. It is a bit like the handball law which has been and still is to a certain extent a complete mess. It would probably have been better if the ref was even more useless and missed the contact. Then he would have had a chance to review on a screen. The ref for the Holland v Argentina match was poor but the ref for the France match was just demonstrating the mess football can get itself into. In a similar way to VAR which I feel couldn't have been implemented more poorly if you tried to.
I wish I could find that clip on Twitter of the ref watching Saka get fouled by two players right in front of him, not blowing his whistle, then watching the France player go down easily 10 seconds later and immediately blowing his whistle.
But the ref in the Stockport cup game for instance let some clear fouls go and blew up for some soft ones. He wasn't a cheat but lost in the system. With VAR available, the guidance should be, if you see a foul give a foul.
Changing the subject, I think England have a great chance of lifting a major trophy this decade. There were three standout teams in this tournament IMO and they were France, England and Brazil. It was bad luck also that we played France in the quarters.
Comments
Before this run we lost all our 50/50 games for 50 years and only had about 6 or 7 of them.
How many 50/50 games (I am using that losley for consistency because I don't think theyvall where 50/50) have France won and lost in that time? They lost to the first decent team they played in 14, 16 and 20(1).
Almost by definition at least 4 teams will go out against the first decent team they play against.
No tournament wins since 1966 is pretty appalling and I can't see it happening under Southgate. He might have done better than some managers but ultimately we haven't won a tournament.
You need to take the opportunities when they present thenselves. Hopefully Southgate will lead us to victory in 2024.
We haven't beaten a "major" nation in a knockout match in the World Cup since 1966
Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors
Will we win a major tournament with him
No
In my opinion
Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
It was in the Midfield that we lost against Croatia - By god we had Ashley Young playing Left Wing-Back that tournament, Southgate deserves credit for getting that squad as far as we did, even if we did "only" beat Colombia and Sweden
France would have torn that squad apart even if we had of got past Croatia.
Then we'd be moaning that Southgate couldnt cope with a Final, given we "lost" last summer too
It is interesting reading the twists and turns that are gone through to prove yourselves "right" - "we were fortunate" to make the semis in 2018 because we lost three games. One of them was that semi, and the other came after the semi. Who do you think you are fooling?
Hoof_it - you ignored CAFC43v3rs points about other teams and their losses. And you seemed to have backtracked on your admission that we had been unlucky at times too?
If you don't think we were unlucky on Saturday, you were watching a different game to me.
I wont change the mind of any of you, of course. But others hopefully will see a little balance.
Southgate is doing much better than his predecessors
Will we win a major tournament with him
No
In my opinion
Doesn't mean there are many better out there we could hire though
So I'm not sure what was wrong with what I've said either?
In the last world cup they beat no teams in the knockouts in 90 minutes and got to the final...
If another nation would have spotted Saka getting booted off the ball in the opening 30 minutes with the ref giving nothing, they would have turned their attentions to Mbappe + Griezmann and done exactly the same back to them.
We play too nice and always act so shocked when other teams step over the line in order to win.
Tchouaméni | Griezmann committed seven fouls between them, only Griezmann got a booking
Yes England dominated the game, especially second half.
Yes that’s partly a reflection of the fact France let you play that way because that’s their plan against big team (see Belgium semi 2018, Euro 2016 run) and
Yes, that doesn’t mean France had everything their own way and there was a twenty minute spell where we had them on the ropes but couldn’t find the goal to kill them off.
We wouldn't have won anything but it at least would have been memorable, interesting and quite funny to some an extent.
Curbs wasn't usually fond of an ego so I think the England dressing room may have been a tad overwhelming!
Keith peacock probably would have helped soften any of the inevitable squad misery or backlash
The penalty which wasn't given was exactly the same IMO. If you give an edict to refs that they have to give less fouls you are basically telling them to ignore some fouls which is what the ref did and indeed I am seeing it during our games too. It is a bit like the handball law which has been and still is to a certain extent a complete mess. It would probably have been better if the ref was even more useless and missed the contact. Then he would have had a chance to review on a screen. The ref for the Holland v Argentina match was poor but the ref for the France match was just demonstrating the mess football can get itself into. In a similar way to VAR which I feel couldn't have been implemented more poorly if you tried to.
Changing the subject, I think England have a great chance of lifting a major trophy this decade. There were three standout teams in this tournament IMO and they were France, England and Brazil. It was bad luck also that we played France in the quarters.