We have to be looking at West Ham's FA Youth Cup winning side for loans......strolled through it
They had a full back playing there that I like the look of and I spoke to Mark Robson about him as a potential loan target for us - he said you can't have him as he's been offered 4x his current salary by Newcastle so will be off in the summer.
That's how a big club identifies talent and secures them
Don’t see how it’s complicated. Watch a player you’ve identified as much as possible on tv and if you like what you see then watch him live until you can decide. To be honest I don’t think it really concerns clubs like Charlton that don’t often pay fees. For clubs like us it’s more a case of seeing who is out of contract when the time comes. I’d expect our recruitment team to have files on most professional players.
There's a couple of ways I scout. Not saying this is right or wrong but I was taught by a very good scout
1 - Look at the stats and see if anyone is shining brightly against his peers. Watch more footage and then watch them AT LEAST 3 times in the flesh. That's usually enough time to see the good and the bad in a player and this will give you a decent idea. Then, if possible, get someone else to watch them and give their analysis too. Look art more footage. Learn what you can about them (you'd be surpruised some of the conversations I have had on the sidelines) Make a decision if they fit and recommend them.
2 - Sometimes I just go to a game with a complete blank canvas and look at everyone. Within 10 or 15 minutes you can see anyone who is worth more attention - then follow them for the reminder of that game. Make notes. Then come and watchi them again at least 3 times. Then get a second opinion if you can and make a decision once you research them as best you can
Very very rarely you see a player who you get a Fanny Tingle about and you move quicker. I had this last season with a player in Dartford's U19s. I also watched him have a stinker for Margate but had seen enough previously. I was told by Charlton we "know about him and he doesn't offer anything we don't already have". Fair enough - we had done our homework in the past and decided he wasn't for us. He has since signed for Fulham and is a regular in their U19s so another one I'm monitoring. Players like this are the exception and not the rule but you do get a buzz when you see one.
There are many way to skin a cat - but it's essential to combine the stats with the reality and do your research. It's fascinating, it's fun but it's bloody hard sometimes. I sometimes come away from a game not really knowing anything about the ghame because I am so focused on one player. Similarly if I am doing "Opposition reporting" I come away from the game knackered because it's so intense to make notes on 11 players - every good and bad action they complete, keeping an eye on the clock, the subs. It''s surpsisingly draining but gets easier with a bit of practice. Unfortunately the hardest part of it is getting someone to listen to you. Existing scouts seem to be very much an old boys club and anyone new on the scene is immediately disregarded. But I won;t give up. I am a football pervert.
Modern sport is very stats based, and analysts seem to be used everywhere.
So much of this data is publicly available that there ought to be a fairly level playing field between comparable clubs, as all should be looking similar numbers surely?
The TV pundits have access to a lot of this data, so they can say that Player X makes the highest number of threatening passes or makes the most overlaps.
That’s where the likes of Brighton and Brentford have got their edge over the years.
Yes all the data is publicly available (for a fee) but the clubs who pour serious resources into coming up with new in-house ways of combining the runs, the passses, the tackles & shots etc. can create more informative stats that no-one else has access to.
By going deeper to the second, third and fourth level of the data, they’re uncovering trends that the publicly available data won’t tell you.
The interesting thing though is that these things are never continually successful and there's always an element of luck. Rasmus Ankersen, the same man who did so much great recruitment at Brentford went to Southampton and is being primarily blamed for taking them down. Too many young players with the wrong attitudes brought in and too much focus in January on potential rather than present-day returns. He used the same systems but this time it fell flat. Much like how Les Reed was a genius at Saints until it fell apart and Walsh was a god at Leicester but is seen as part of the group that started Everton's decline into what they are now. Constant reinvention and a huge amount of fortune are needed no matter how good your data and scouting set up is
And indeed Gallen after bringing in Cullen, Bielik and Gallagher on loan...
…and then backing that up with Rak-Sakyi
Well documented it was Ben Garner that wanted JRS. Tried getting him at Swindon
I know. But he was due to go to Oxford and “we” persuaded him and Palace that he should come to Charlton. I think it is unfair to blame all the shit on SG and credit others with the successful signings. SG is said to be the negotiator not the scout.
I would suggest that this makes him the person who got him over the line for us and is an example of how good he is at his job. I would be looking at who took over the decision making when they first changed his role.
If that's all true why did Gallen personally say he had watched Clare play and had personally seen Lavelle multiple times?
I find that and the fact "Steve and Martin are always out scouting", despite being at almost all our games very hard to believe.
As I said before it probably isn't Gallen's fault but the mixed messages that come out the club do no one, especially Gallen, any favours.
Is Gallen at almost all our games? I don’t know, but I am sure I have read noise on here in the last few months around whether he even still works for the club as he had not been seen in ages.
They wasn't scouts.. Would have a network (or in Charlton case one or two) that would report back into them. Also totally different these days, with every game being broadcasted, they don't have to go to games.
If your scouting is all done on TV and internet you are never going to get the true picture. Coverage does not show what is going on everywhere on the pitch, just where the ball is. If you are tracking a particular player you get a much better idea being there in person. Perhaps this is where we are going wrong? The little black box method clearly has severe limitations.
I imagine there are many issues with our recruitment setup. We seem to look at a fairly limited pool of players for one - signings such as Arter, Souare, Watson, Gunter, Aneke, Bonne, Hector, Kane etc either all well know older players or former players.
Then there are local players like JRS, Maatsen, Gallagher, Cullen etc - great they worked out but I don’t expect us to sign similar quality from clubs in other areas of the country.
Our signings in recent years don’t give the impression we have good coverage of the country.
Beyond that how much are we looking in non-league, Prem u21s, Scotland and Ireland for first team players?
This comes from the little black box producing lists of players that are laughably unrealistic, laughably bad or don't exist.
Then Gallen ends up phoning a friend to beg, borrow, give a nudge to or what ever it takes to get someone in.
You can normally tell a Gallen 11th hour rescue job a mile off. Bonne was probably one twice.
There was nothing wrong with signing Bonne on a short term deal. If he hadn't blown it with his social media activity, he would have played until the end of the season and left after doing an ok job.
He was a better short term signing that Josh Parker for example
'doing an ok job'? I'd debate that personally but even so is that the prerequisite now, 'an ok job'. That's what has got us where we are now.
2 goals in his last 4 games, so he was just starting to get a bit of confidence.
In the circumstances, an "ok job" was what we needed in January.
A tap in at the end of a 6-0 rout and him standing in the way of a Henry shot that then fell kindly to him, hardly awe inspiring stuff.
People defending our shit players to the hilt doesn't help matters
His all around play was ok in his last games for us.
Strikers thrive in confidence, you could see his overall game improving after he finally got his first goal.
I wasn't saying he was brilliant or that I wanted to keep him, but saying he did a job in his last games for us. His hold up play for example was better than Leaburn's.
Don’t see how it’s complicated. Watch a player you’ve identified as much as possible on tv and if you like what you see then watch him live until you can decide. To be honest I don’t think it really concerns clubs like Charlton that don’t often pay fees. For clubs like us it’s more a case of seeing who is out of contract when the time comes. I’d expect our recruitment team to have files on most professional players.
There's a couple of ways I scout. Not saying this is right or wrong but I was taught by a very good scout
1 - Look at the stats and see if anyone is shining brightly against his peers. Watch more footage and then watch them AT LEAST 3 times in the flesh. That's usually enough time to see the good and the bad in a player and this will give you a decent idea. Then, if possible, get someone else to watch them and give their analysis too. Look art more footage. Learn what you can about them (you'd be surpruised some of the conversations I have had on the sidelines) Make a decision if they fit and recommend them.
2 - Sometimes I just go to a game with a complete blank canvas and look at everyone. Within 10 or 15 minutes you can see anyone who is worth more attention - then follow them for the reminder of that game. Make notes. Then come and watchi them again at least 3 times. Then get a second opinion if you can and make a decision once you research them as best you can
Very very rarely you see a player who you get a Fanny Tingle about and you move quicker. I had this last season with a player in Dartford's U19s. I also watched him have a stinker for Margate but had seen enough previously. I was told by Charlton we "know about him and he doesn't offer anything we don't already have". Fair enough - we had done our homework in the past and decided he wasn't for us. He has since signed for Fulham and is a regular in their U19s so another one I'm monitoring. Players like this are the exception and not the rule but you do get a buzz when you see one.
There are many way to skin a cat - but it's essential to combine the stats with the reality and do your research. It's fascinating, it's fun but it's bloody hard sometimes. I sometimes come away from a game not really knowing anything about the ghame because I am so focused on one player. Similarly if I am doing "Opposition reporting" I come away from the game knackered because it's so intense to make notes on 11 players - every good and bad action they complete, keeping an eye on the clock, the subs. It''s surpsisingly draining but gets easier with a bit of practice. Unfortunately the hardest part of it is getting someone to listen to you. Existing scouts seem to be very much an old boys club and anyone new on the scene is immediately disregarded. But I won;t give up. I am a football pervert.
Talking of scouts does anyone know if @Tutt-Tutt still posts on here. Used to enjoy his post match remarks when I saw them and think he was a scout too?
Whilst we are actually discussing recruitment, I have been, for a while, making a list of young players we should be keeping close tabs on. As you’ll see I tend to look for attacking players as they’re the more exciting ones, naturally… but of course we have to be careful not to stunt the development of our own players.
Leeds United U21:
Sonny Perkins - 19 years old - (forward) - Londoner who Leeds took from West Ham as part of their development squad. And they’ve got a great group of youngsters. A player who could be called upon if Leeds are to go down, but could also be a great signing for anyone at our level.
Mateo Joseph - 19 years old (forward) - Spanish born yet England U20 international joined Leeds from Espanyol just over a year or so ago. His record for U21 at Leeds is very good, a talented player who can operate as a 10.
Manchester City U21:
Adedire Mebude - 18 years old (forward) - Scottish U21 international who was born in London but is from Nigerian descent. Man City signed him from Rangers and he has scored and assisted for fun in the U21 PL2 this season. Extremely creative and is an out and out right winger who is right footed too, which makes a change.
Carlos Borges - 19 years old (forward) - a left footed left winger from Portugal. Arguably one of the very best of this list. For a winger his record at youth level is phenomenal, he’s also scored a hat-trick against Derby in the EFL Trophy in the season just finishing. He’s absolutely rapid and quite likely out of our reach.
Oscar Bobb - 19 years old - (midfielder) - another one from the Man City production line and one hell of a talent. Winning Man City’s Elite Development Squad player of the season, Bobb is a Norwegian U21 international attacking midfielder who can really pick a pass. Was expected to go out on loan in January but as Man City often do, wanted him to finish the campaign with their development team. Would be a real coup if we got him, that’s even if we are interested.
Chelsea U21:
Harvey Vale - 19 years old - (midfielder) - next big thing a couple years ago but not kicked on like Gallagher did. Yet to go on loan though but part of England U20 set up. Technically gifted and would be a Morgan replacement.
West Ham United U21:
Divin Mubama - 18 years old - forward) - won FA Youth Cup, been part of the Europa Conference League squad at times, scored loads for U18 and U21. Left footed striker who runs in behind and offers something else. He also knows where the goal is which is always handy.
West Bromwich Albion U21:
Reyes Cleary - 19 years old - (forward) - left winger mainly yet can play in a number of positions and scored loads for the U21. An England youth international who played a couple of games in Championship last season but needs a full year playing. League One for a season could be what he needs.
Norwich City U21:
Abu Kamara - 19 years old - (forward) - Southeast London born left footed forward who started as a full back/winger and can play right across the front line. Out of contract in the summer and has scored goals at both U18 and U21 for a couple of years. At 19 he either needs to move on elsewhere for men’s football or sign a contract at Norwich and hope to break through.
Good shout for Abu Kamara sage. He came on as sub late in the Blackpool game, can't remember him making much of an impact although thinking he was quite 'gangly'. Norwich city obviously rate him because they have extended his contract to 2025.
Kamara certainly has a bright future. Missed that he signed a new deal, sure he’d go on loan this coming season.
Whilst we are actually discussing recruitment, I have been, for a while, making a list of young players we should be keeping close tabs on. As you’ll see I tend to look for attacking players as they’re the more exciting ones, naturally… but of course we have to be careful not to stunt the development of our own players.
Leeds United U21:
Sonny Perkins - 19 years old - (forward) - Londoner who Leeds took from West Ham as part of their development squad. And they’ve got a great group of youngsters. A player who could be called upon if Leeds are to go down, but could also be a great signing for anyone at our level.
Mateo Joseph - 19 years old (forward) - Spanish born yet England U20 international joined Leeds from Espanyol just over a year or so ago. His record for U21 at Leeds is very good, a talented player who can operate as a 10.
Manchester City U21:
Adedire Mebude - 18 years old (forward) - Scottish U21 international who was born in London but is from Nigerian descent. Man City signed him from Rangers and he has scored and assisted for fun in the U21 PL2 this season. Extremely creative and is an out and out right winger who is right footed too, which makes a change.
Carlos Borges - 19 years old (forward) - a left footed left winger from Portugal. Arguably one of the very best of this list. For a winger his record at youth level is phenomenal, he’s also scored a hat-trick against Derby in the EFL Trophy in the season just finishing. He’s absolutely rapid and quite likely out of our reach.
Oscar Bobb - 19 years old - (midfielder) - another one from the Man City production line and one hell of a talent. Winning Man City’s Elite Development Squad player of the season, Bobb is a Norwegian U21 international attacking midfielder who can really pick a pass. Was expected to go out on loan in January but as Man City often do, wanted him to finish the campaign with their development team. Would be a real coup if we got him, that’s even if we are interested.
Chelsea U21:
Harvey Vale - 19 years old - (midfielder) - next big thing a couple years ago but not kicked on like Gallagher did. Yet to go on loan though but part of England U20 set up. Technically gifted and would be a Morgan replacement.
West Ham United U21:
Divin Mubama - 18 years old - forward) - won FA Youth Cup, been part of the Europa Conference League squad at times, scored loads for U18 and U21. Left footed striker who runs in behind and offers something else. He also knows where the goal is which is always handy.
West Bromwich Albion U21:
Reyes Cleary - 19 years old - (forward) - left winger mainly yet can play in a number of positions and scored loads for the U21. An England youth international who played a couple of games in Championship last season but needs a full year playing. League One for a season could be what he needs.
Norwich City U21:
Abu Kamara - 19 years old - (forward) - Southeast London born left footed forward who started as a full back/winger and can play right across the front line. Out of contract in the summer and has scored goals at both U18 and U21 for a couple of years. At 19 he either needs to move on elsewhere for men’s football or sign a contract at Norwich and hope to break through.
Carlos Borges is an unreal talent, no chance City loan him to league one. I wouldn't be surprised to see him feature in their last 2 league games if City wrap the title up this weekend.
Of course senior football is a big step up, but 29 goals and 18 assists in 33 games this season is a crazy record for a winger.
Exactly and is why I said he’s arguably one of the best and quite likely out of our reach. I can dream though because a front 3 of Borges and CBT either side of the striker (Leaburn or Aneke or someone else) would be very exciting and rapid either side.
Blackpool's list is out. Our former keeper Chris Maxwell is available.
Of the other names Liam Bridcutt is there although I guess he falls into the category of injury prone veterans who would have been useful a few years ago.
Comments
That's how a big club identifies talent and secures them
1 - Look at the stats and see if anyone is shining brightly against his peers. Watch more footage and then watch them AT LEAST 3 times in the flesh. That's usually enough time to see the good and the bad in a player and this will give you a decent idea. Then, if possible, get someone else to watch them and give their analysis too. Look art more footage. Learn what you can about them (you'd be surpruised some of the conversations I have had on the sidelines) Make a decision if they fit and recommend them.
2 - Sometimes I just go to a game with a complete blank canvas and look at everyone. Within 10 or 15 minutes you can see anyone who is worth more attention - then follow them for the reminder of that game. Make notes. Then come and watchi them again at least 3 times. Then get a second opinion if you can and make a decision once you research them as best you can
Very very rarely you see a player who you get a Fanny Tingle about and you move quicker. I had this last season with a player in Dartford's U19s. I also watched him have a stinker for Margate but had seen enough previously. I was told by Charlton we "know about him and he doesn't offer anything we don't already have". Fair enough - we had done our homework in the past and decided he wasn't for us. He has since signed for Fulham and is a regular in their U19s so another one I'm monitoring. Players like this are the exception and not the rule but you do get a buzz when you see one.
There are many way to skin a cat - but it's essential to combine the stats with the reality and do your research. It's fascinating, it's fun but it's bloody hard sometimes. I sometimes come away from a game not really knowing anything about the ghame because I am so focused on one player. Similarly if I am doing "Opposition reporting" I come away from the game knackered because it's so intense to make notes on 11 players - every good and bad action they complete, keeping an eye on the clock, the subs. It''s surpsisingly draining but gets easier with a bit of practice. Unfortunately the hardest part of it is getting someone to listen to you. Existing scouts seem to be very much an old boys club and anyone new on the scene is immediately disregarded. But I won;t give up. I am a football pervert.
Then Gallen ends up phoning a friend to beg, borrow, give a nudge to or what ever it takes to get someone in.
You can normally tell a Gallen 11th hour rescue job a mile off. Bonne was probably one twice.
Strikers thrive in confidence, you could see his overall game improving after he finally got his first goal.
I wasn't saying he was brilliant or that I wanted to keep him, but saying he did a job in his last games for us. His hold up play for example was better than Leaburn's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Head_(footballer)
Talking of scouts does anyone know if @Tutt-Tutt still posts on here. Used to enjoy his post match remarks when I saw them and think he was a scout too?
Of the other names Liam Bridcutt is there although I guess he falls into the category of injury prone veterans who would have been useful a few years ago.
I was very impressed with him at Scunthorpe a few years ago but he seems to have lost his way over the years.