To give Hayes credit, one of the only games in recent seasons we can be proud of was when he took charge against De Zerbi's Brighton. Hayes had Richard Chin marking Mitoma out the game, genius
If that game had been played 2 weeks later once the Brighton boys had got "match fit" after having 4 weeks off we would have been annihilated. As it was we were battered & dragged around the pitch. Only poor finishing / rustiness stopped us losing 5-0.
- Dean Holden was apparently recommended to TS by the current SMT. Effectively their choice, 8 months ago.
- He inherited a crap squad that was in chaos. Remember the Stockport cup humiliation?
- Admittedly the delay to the takeover completion didn't help to make a smooth well-planned pre-season.
- He has ONE fit senior striker. ONE!
- As of a week ago he had 10 -TEN - injured players.
- He has had to play two debutant 18 year olds in every game, for the simple reason that there were no better choices.
- He was told that he cannot bring more players in if he keeps picking the trash (Kirk, DJ , McG). Yes, I have a source for that. None of the trash was on the bench on Saturday.
So yeah, the "solution" to a poor start is to sack a manager you gave a three year contract to in March with a week to go of the window and irons supposedly in the fire, especially a striker.
As I've been saying for nigh on 30 years since I got involved in management recruitment: any idiot can sack someone. The difficult bit is getting in someone "better", especially if you keep being the same idiot each year or less.
Holden lost the plot on Saturday. Picking Deji and Ness to start, playing Edun as a quasi central midfielder, having our only fit striker taking long throw ins with only one player back in defense. With that being said, you don’t sack any manager no matter how poor with a week to go in the transfer window. You are almost guaranteeing that you will only get mediocre loans in. If you have concerns about Holden, you give him another 4 weeks or so after the window closes, with any new players, potentially Leaburn and Kamara back and if he continues to fail, then sack him with a potential replacement close to being lined up.
My main concern with Nathan Jones, (not that I think he would go down to league 1 anyway) is that the moment a better club comes along, no matter how well we are doing or where we are in the season l, he will be off. He did it to Luton, twice.
I would like to know which exact individual texted Dean Holden to sack him. It would be an indication as to where the real power in the club lies, and also an indication as to who is a complete **** for choosing to or agreeing to do it that way.
My main concern with Nathan Jones, (not that I think he would go down to league 1 anyway) is that the moment a better club comes along, no matter how well we are doing or where we are in the season l, he will be off. He did it to Luton, twice.
He’d have to have been doing a good job to warrant getting another offer though…
Holden lost the plot on Saturday. Picking Deji and Ness to start, playing Edun as a quasi central midfielder, having our only fit striker taking long throw ins with only one player back in defense. With that being said, you don’t sack any manager no matter how poor with a week to go in the transfer window. You are almost guaranteeing that you will only get mediocre loans in. If you have concerns about Holden, you give him another 4 weeks or so after the window closes, with any new players, potentially Leaburn and Kamara back and if he continues to fail, then sack him with a potential replacement close to being lined up.
This.
At least give him the right tools & for players to get back from injury fgs.
I wasn't a fan of Holden but I feel he had been dealt a bad hand & treated very poorly.
I would like to know which exact individual texted Dean Holden to sack him. It would be an indication as to where the real power in the club lies, and also an indication as to who is a complete **** for choosing to or agreeing to do it that way.
Not sure the person who texted would necessarily have the real power - but would agree with your second part of the sentence.
He was dealt a bad hand but he also played it badly. Think there is fault on both sides. Can't defend the squad he had to pick from, but also can't defend some of his lineups and the choices being made on the pitch.
What worried me most with Holden was the game management. Change the shape to gain an advantage or exploit a weakness yes... But there were a few times where he'd change it and we'd suddenly be weaker and lose our momentum. We'd be chasing the match, in the ascendancy, then he'd change formation and we'd be chasing shadows.
Best example of that was Bristol Rovers when he went to 442 and we nearly conceded three goals in ten minutes, and then he changed had to change it up again.
Welcome to the world of hedge managers and private equity. As soon as results do not conform with the plan then decisive action in the form of identification of scapegoats and their removal is required, with orders being implemented by their appointee.
Anyone who has worked for them knows how it works - these people cannot see beyond next week and their wallets despite what they might say about strategy etc etc.
- Dean Holden was apparently recommended to TS by the current SMT. Effectively their choice, 8 months ago.
- He inherited a crap squad that was in chaos. Remember the Stockport cup humiliation?
- Admittedly the delay to the takeover completion didn't help to make a smooth well-planned pre-season.
- He has ONE fit senior striker. ONE!
- As of a week ago he had 10 -TEN - injured players.
- He has had to play two debutant 18 year olds in every game, for the simple reason that there were no better choices.
- He was told that he cannot bring more players in if he keeps picking the trash (Kirk, DJ , McG). Yes, I have a source for that. None of the trash was on the bench on Saturday.
So yeah, the "solution" to a poor start is to sack a manager you gave a three year contract to in March with a week to go of the window and irons supposedly in the fire, especially a striker.
As I've been saying for nigh on 30 years since I got involved in management recruitment: any idiot can sack someone. The difficult bit is getting in someone "better", especially if you keep being the same idiot each year or less.
I don't dispute he improved our performances after Garner-ball (it was a relatively obvious idea to "get the ball forward quicker", as DH described it) but, as I've said earlier, tactical naivety alone in the last 3 games (including first-rate impression of a stuffed dummy on the touchline at crucial moments and leaving clearly-knackered youngsters on for too long) and shockingly poor set-piece coaching in both boxes, is enough for me to be in no doubt it's right to replace DH now. He could have a fully-fit £30m squad and still potentially (probably IMO) not have the ability as a manager to get us promotion. You're right he was SMT's choice but it's not unreasonable to assume they had to work within TS's budget and have his sign off. TS would have had to (and for a while did) live with the choice if the deal fell through. So we shouldn't assume DH was ever their #1 choice or defines their budget for a new appointment. We'll find out soon.
I would like to know which exact individual texted Dean Holden to sack him. It would be an indication as to where the real power in the club lies, and also an indication as to who is a complete **** for choosing to or agreeing to do it that way.
Not sure the person who texted would necessarily have the real power - but would agree with your second part of the sentence.
I think that's kind of the point. If we know who gets given that kind of job to do, it might be clearer as to who are the organ grinders and who are the monkeys - because the real operators will be giving that job to the scapegoats.
To give Hayes credit, one of the only games in recent seasons we can be proud of was when he took charge against De Zerbi's Brighton. Hayes had Richard Chin marking Mitoma out the game, genius
We can all fantasise about experienced, successful managers being appointed but my money is on it being a cheap option, like Holden and then sacked in 20 odd games time.
Sadly the thoughts that the majority of this forum had on Holden when he was appointed have come to pass. I think he quickly won over the fans with him being such a decent individual but was it ever really going to work ? I didn’t think so but was won over like everyone else. I wish the bloke every success going forward but for me what has happened was just a matter of time.
Well this the chance to find out what our new owners intention are by who we get in Going to be interesting to see how much they want to take us up they need to put some real money into getting the right man if they don't & go for another one on the cheap we will know where we stand with this lot
- Dean Holden was apparently recommended to TS by the current SMT. Effectively their choice, 8 months ago.
- He inherited a crap squad that was in chaos. Remember the Stockport cup humiliation?
- Admittedly the delay to the takeover completion didn't help to make a smooth well-planned pre-season.
- He has ONE fit senior striker. ONE!
- As of a week ago he had 10 -TEN - injured players.
- He has had to play two debutant 18 year olds in every game, for the simple reason that there were no better choices.
- He was told that he cannot bring more players in if he keeps picking the trash (Kirk, DJ , McG). Yes, I have a source for that. None of the trash was on the bench on Saturday.
So yeah, the "solution" to a poor start is to sack a manager you gave a three year contract to in March with a week to go of the window and irons supposedly in the fire, especially a striker.
As I've been saying for nigh on 30 years since I got involved in management recruitment: any idiot can sack someone. The difficult bit is getting in someone "better", especially if you keep being the same idiot each year or less.
I don't dispute he improved our performances after Garner-ball (it was a relatively obvious idea to "get the ball forward quicker", as DH described it) but, as I've said earlier, tactical naivety alone in the last 3 games (including first-rate impression of a stuffed dummy on the touchline at crucial moments and leaving clearly-knackered youngsters on for too long) and shockingly poor set-piece coaching in both boxes, is enough for me to be in no doubt it's right to replace DH now. He could have a fully-fit £30m squad and still potentially (probably IMO) not have the ability as a manager to get us promotion. You're right he was SMT's choice but it's not unreasonable to assume they had to work within TS's budget and have his sign off. TS would have had to (and for a while did) live with the choice if the deal fell through. So we shouldn't assume DH was ever their #1 choice or defines their budget for a new appointment. We'll find out soon.
With great respect, Mr Peanuts, your first para. reads as if Methven and co. appointed him only in the close season and had no idea how -apparently - "tactically naive" he is. But that's not the case. Methven was in and around the club from December- when Holden and the others came in- through to February, and had a half-season to monitor results and take soundings. If he's really as bad as you paint him, you'd think Charlie- "I know football" - Methven would have spotted it, and have had a replacement lined up to take over as soon as the deal was done; so that at least said replacement could get some of his own choices in, and certainly influence the pre-season.
Given that, you haven't persuaded me at all that the timing of this isn't symptomatic of panic and breathtaking incompetence. Or possibly, as @sm above says, symptomatic of hedge-fund management mentality.
We can all fantasise about experienced, successful managers being appointed but my money is on it being a cheap option, like Holden and then sacked in 20 odd games time.
Nobody is fantasising, just keeping an open mind. The pessimists may be proven correct but we know diddly squat about the conversations going on right now among the owners (or at least those given the power to make the decision) or the budget they have at their disposal. As I said above, Holden's original appointment may have been at their instigation but (given TS still owned the club and the takeover was far from done) it doesn't mean he was there #1 choice or that his CV or contract establishes a benchmark for their first appointment as outright owners. Obviously it also depends upon whom they can attract. We'll find out soon enough.
Comments
(No need to comment on the chance).
At least give him the right tools & for players to get back from injury fgs.
I wasn't a fan of Holden but I feel he had been dealt a bad hand & treated very poorly.
What worried me most with Holden was the game management. Change the shape to gain an advantage or exploit a weakness yes... But there were a few times where he'd change it and we'd suddenly be weaker and lose our momentum. We'd be chasing the match, in the ascendancy, then he'd change formation and we'd be chasing shadows.
Best example of that was Bristol Rovers when he went to 442 and we nearly conceded three goals in ten minutes, and then he changed had to change it up again.
He didn't have the ability to read the game.
Maybe he would come for the challenge !
Worth a shout.
Anyone who has worked for them knows how it works - these people cannot see beyond next week and their wallets despite what they might say about strategy etc etc.
He could have a fully-fit £30m squad and still potentially (probably IMO) not have the ability as a manager to get us promotion.
You're right he was SMT's choice but it's not unreasonable to assume they had to work within TS's budget and have his sign off. TS would have had to (and for a while did) live with the choice if the deal fell through.
So we shouldn't assume DH was ever their #1 choice or defines their budget for a new appointment.
We'll find out soon.
Going to be interesting to see how much they want to take us up
they need to put some real money into getting the right man if they don't & go for another one on the cheap we will know where we stand with this lot
Given that, you haven't persuaded me at all that the timing of this isn't symptomatic of panic and breathtaking incompetence. Or possibly, as @sm above says, symptomatic of hedge-fund management mentality.
The pessimists may be proven correct but we know diddly squat about the conversations going on right now among the owners (or at least those given the power to make the decision) or the budget they have at their disposal.
As I said above, Holden's original appointment may have been at their instigation but (given TS still owned the club and the takeover was far from done) it doesn't mean he was there #1 choice or that his CV or contract establishes a benchmark for their first appointment as outright owners.
Obviously it also depends upon whom they can attract.
We'll find out soon enough.