Lloyd Jones meanwhile doesn't challenge properly for a header or attempt to block a shot, both leading to goals, and nothing like the ongoing witch-hunt for Hector, who's one of the few actual footballers in our side. I mean, I'm a fan of Jones' but this is getting stupid
As I said yesterday, we didn't let in the third goal because we switched off at the end, which was the case against Cambridge for example.
We had been battered all the second half, wave after wave of shots and crosses, and if you are having to do last ditch defending for such a long time, eventually your luck will run out.
If you concede 29 shots, TWELVE on target, you will win a tiny number of games. No excuse for the defensive frailties, but when you lose control of the midfield and the ball doesn't stick up front due to the lack of a physical No 9, the defence will be in for a hard game.
And no disrespect to Port Vale, but to be dominated by such a mid table team, is grim.
This is the truth of our 'terrible defence' though. It requires a minimum allowable understanding of football to grasp
What I have seen with Hector is that he started the season dreadfully but has improved. I don't see him as a problem compared to the glaring problems. It is probably sensible to look at he glaring problems first surely.
Agreed. The one where he allowed the ball to bounce, and it went over his head, was a shocker, particularly for a player of his pedigree.
Btw, did you see the pics of their third that I posted? Jones was transfixed, and didn’t move a muscle, let alone close the player down, or attempt to block.
Leadership required - they should all have been making more of an effort to stop the goal.
I can say 100% that I would have closed that player down in my playing days and I'm sure a lot would have done too, which is worrying. It is basic defence to see where the threat is. That was the only threat in that move and we had enough players to stop it. Maybe Jones hasn't recovered fully from his injury which shows up at the end of the game. But he has done ok recently too.
Can anyone explain to me PLEASE why Hector marks are so erratic ?
I will disregard Ronnie Moore's 9 ! But he also got 7's and 8' yet some gave 3's and 4's 🤔
You would think CL members aren't watching the same match. How can some say he was solid yet others say he was a liability after watching the same game?
I only watched the goals on Sky highlights but AMB needed a stronger hand for the 2nd( we all agreed on that) which was similar to the Port Vale keeper for our 3rd.
It’s called confirmation bias. A lot of people wrote him off when he made some bad errors early on.
And some stubbornly defend him despite his short givings
Misgiving or shortcomings?
My views on him are fairly realistic, and yes, he does have shortcomings, particularly for a player who played a big part in Fulham winning the Championship title a couple of years ago.
I’ve said I’d prefer two Joneses to two Hectors, but I’ve changed my mind now. Jones has been very disappointing over the last few games. I’ve also said I would be happy if we bought better.
But I judge each game and performance on its merits, which some don’t do. A poster gave Jones 8 and Hector 3 yesterday, which just shows some people aren’t watching closely, if they’re watching at all.
I’m a fan of LL’s Players Stats because the majority of people on CL are good judges. Hector’s improved performances have resulted in him being highly ranked in the stats, just as it should be. It’s bizarre that some won’t accept that, like old Chunsey. It’s good to get behind our own players if they’re improving, surely?
I could reply but why repeat what I've written before. I mean, didn't you also say recently that we missed Ryan Innis this season?
I can't see the value in sharing views about CBs with someone who sees the game in that way.
Still, you are entitled to share your views on here, that's what we're here to do after all, and I wouldn't spit at you in the way Leuth does when he hears something he doesn't like! We have different standards, that's all.
It’s not about standards, it’s about realism. I acknowledge when he players badly, and have said I don’t mind if he’s replaced by better.
As for Innis, I said we’ll miss his aerial dominance, and we have.
And my opinions about Hector are pretty well reflected by the majority on here, as evidenced by the Players Stats thread. He’s improved a lot over the last eight games or so, that’s all. 👍 Btw, although I have some players that I don’t rate very highly I’m always happy when they play well.
When we lost to Vale at home under Holden, I recall thinking that they were relegation fodder and we should never have lost that game. Since then we have regressed. Yesterday they were much better than us. Just much better. Don't think Holden had Miles or Chuks for the home game either? Worst thing for me is for the first time in over 50 years, I feel ambivalent and not disappointed in losing. I have never celebrated a goal less even in pre season games. Really depressing times. Find it hard to watch Appleton interviewed pre and post match. Need a meaningful change at our club.
I’m not sure they were much better than us. I think it was about even, and both of us are mid-table mediocrity. The problem is that’s fine for Vale’s budget and ambition, it’s unacceptable for ours.
Can anyone explain to me PLEASE why Hector marks are so erratic ?
I will disregard Ronnie Moore's 9 ! But he also got 7's and 8' yet some gave 3's and 4's 🤔
You would think CL members aren't watching the same match. How can some say he was solid yet others say he was a liability after watching the same game?
I only watched the goals on Sky highlights but AMB needed a stronger hand for the 2nd( we all agreed on that) which was similar to the Port Vale keeper for our 3rd.
It’s called confirmation bias. A lot of people wrote him off when he made some bad errors early on.
And some stubbornly defend him despite his short givings
Misgiving or shortcomings?
My views on him are fairly realistic, and yes, he does have shortcomings, particularly for a player who played a big part in Fulham winning the Championship title a couple of years ago.
I’ve said I’d prefer two Joneses to two Hectors, but I’ve changed my mind now. Jones has been very disappointing over the last few games. I’ve also said I would be happy if we bought better.
But I judge each game and performance on its merits, which some don’t do. A poster gave Jones 8 and Hector 3 yesterday, which just shows some people aren’t watching closely, if they’re watching at all.
I’m a fan of LL’s Players Stats because the majority of people on CL are good judges. Hector’s improved performances have resulted in him being highly ranked in the stats, just as it should be. It’s bizarre that some won’t accept that, like old Chunsey. It’s good to get behind our own players if they’re improving, surely?
I could reply but why repeat what I've written before. I mean, didn't you also say recently that we missed Ryan Innis this season?
I can't see the value in sharing views about CBs with someone who sees the game in that way.
Still, you are entitled to share your views on here, that's what we're here to do after all, and I wouldn't spit at you in the way Leuth does when he hears something he doesn't like! We have different standards, that's all.
It’s not about standards, it’s about realism. I acknowledge when he players badly, and have said I don’t mind if he’s replaced by better.
As for Innis, I said we’ll miss his aerial dominance, and we have.
And my opinions about Hector are pretty well reflected by the majority on here, as evidenced by the Players Stats thread. He’s improved a lot over the last eight games or so, that’s all. 👍 Btw, although I have some players that I don’t rate very highly I’m always happy when they play well.
It is standards, for me. When Hector has played well and been switched on for 90 mins I've marked him MOM by the way. But look, I spent too much time last season arguing about Innis and to what end? I'm determined not to do the same this season. We see a different game. Last post from me. But glad we can disagree (somewhat) agreeably.
When we lost to Vale at home under Holden, I recall thinking that they were relegation fodder and we should never have lost that game. Since then we have regressed. Yesterday they were much better than us. Just much better. Don't think Holden had Miles or Chuks for the home game either? Worst thing for me is for the first time in over 50 years, I feel ambivalent and not disappointed in losing. I have never celebrated a goal less even in pre season games. Really depressing times. Find it hard to watch Appleton interviewed pre and post match. Need a meaningful change at our club.
I’m not sure they were much better than us. I think it was about even, and both of us are mid-table mediocrity. The problem is that’s fine for Vale’s budget and ambition, it’s unacceptable for ours.
I agree with many comments on here, but just keep reminding myself that we are in League 1, with League 1 players and try not to expect much better
That’s the sad truth. But we need to keep improving each transfer window, and if we haven’t by the end of the season, or early next season, even the optimists will be giving up hope. Grim.
I actually think there were improvements in our play compared to recent weeks, but Appleton has to change things when players are getting tired. Watson and CBT were done on about 70 mins, and we’re being carried which is partly the reason as to why we were getting peppered as soon as their second goal went in.
I thought the entire game was a masterclass in defensive ineptitude, with Port Vale's even worse than ours. Where they were significantly better than us was in their attacking play and in their domination of midfield in the second half. It's just as well that their top scorer, Ben Garrity, was out.
There is a serious problem with our lack of resilience and, contrary to Appleton's usual assertion/excuse, it goes well beyond having to play too many youngsters. Yes we lack physicality and experience in the side but defects in the coaching and basic organisation of the team are just as important and that is down to him and his staff.
Whilst Maynard-Brewer was at fault for the second goal, he kept us in the game with a couple of excellent saves. Jones (inhibited by his early booking) had a poor game and, whilst Edun is good on the ball, he is a mediocre defender, who rarely stops crosses coming in and compounds it with his poor positional sense. We need a replacement.
The fact that we were overpowered in midfield in the second half is not a great surprise, given that Watson and Anderson are relatively lightweight and our two wingers - for all their attacking quality - offer little when we're out of possession. In fairness to Appleton, he has had three midfielders out injured practically all season and his only option on the bench was the ambling Scott Fraser, who is the last man you'd want to introduce into this sort of game when your backs are up against the wall. The fact that we've signed two midfield loanees suggests that we won't be seeing much (if anything) of Camara, Taylor and McGrandles this season.
Daniel Kanu took his goal expertly but was generally isolated and had very little support from midfield runners. We were always going to struggle with the long term injuries to Leaburn and Aneke, whilst May's back problem has only compounded matters.
There are some very tough fixtures coming up in the next 10 games and we have to hope that the players who come in this month hit the ground running and that we can retain Dobson and Blackett-Taylor. If not, we could be in a very worrying position going into March and the last 11 games of the season.
I actually think there were improvements in our play compared to recent weeks, but Appleton has to change things when players are getting tired. Watson and CBT were done on about 70 mins, and we’re being carried which is partly the reason as to why we were getting peppered as soon as their second goal went in.
You're probably right but I have a bit of sympathy here. Had he taken off CBT that early and things still went wrong he'd be lambasted for taking off our only threat. Perhaps Fraser could've come on for Watson but we've seen how poor he's been recently. The bench was so weak, I wasn't surprised he didn't change much to be honest.
In his career to date, over nearly 300 games, Dobbo has never managed more than 1 goal per season.
This season he has 3 goals from 30 games. He’s not the person you really want turning up on the end of a cross in the last minute of injury time as, shown by his stats, he has never scored many.
For me Dobbo is a Browny type player. Not class but a trier and has personal pride in his game. He isn't the best technical player, or the quickest or even a great leader, but he shows the rest how much effort should be put in. I firmly believe that if they all put in his shift we'd be much higher up the table. If he goes we're in a whole heap of trouble.
Disagree Steve Brown was class and technically much better than Dobson. Was a good player at Prem level. The only thing that held him back was lack of pace.
Just have to say that I really enjoyed the away day yesterday. Good pubs, great atmosphere in the Charlton end and three goals to celebrate with fellow addicks. Had I stayed at home watching the match online, I’m sure I would have been thoroughly depressed. Yep there’s lots which needs sorting out but the players did put in a big shift and despite everything there’s still a strong connection between the away support and the players. Supporting Charlton has always been about sticking together and supporting far from perfect teams through some pretty crappy times, whatever league we are in. So I’m now back in Shropshire and looking forward to Burton away hopefully with a stronger squad.
I agree with many comments on here, but just keep reminding myself that we are in League 1, with League 1 players and try not to expect much better
Competing against other league one players in league one.
I agree, but not to expect a lot of skill and energy from either team or they would be playing in a higher league or at the top ready for promotion, which we are clearly not
I thought the entire game was a masterclass in defensive ineptitude, with Port Vale's even worse than ours. Where they were significantly better than us was in their attacking play and in their domination of midfield in the second half. It's just as well that their top scorer, Ben Garrity, was out.
There is a serious problem with our lack of resilience and, contrary to Appleton's usual assertion/excuse, it goes well beyond having to play too many youngsters. Yes we lack physicality and experience in the side but defects in the coaching and basic organisation of the team are just as important and that is down to him and his staff.
Whilst Maynard-Brewer was at fault for the second goal, he kept us in the game with a couple of excellent saves. Jones (inhibited by his early booking) had a poor game and, whilst Edun is good on the ball, he is a mediocre defender, who rarely stops crosses coming in and compounds it with his poor positional sense. We need a replacement.
The fact that we were overpowered in midfield in the second half is not a great surprise, given that Watson and Anderson are relatively lightweight and our two wingers - for all their attacking quality - offer little when we're out of possession. In fairness to Appleton, he has had three midfielders out injured practically all season and his only option on the bench was the ambling Scott Fraser, who is the last man you'd want to introduce into this sort of game when your backs are up against the wall. The fact that we've signed two midfield loanees suggests that we won't be seeing much (if anything) of Camara, Taylor and McGrandles this season.
Daniel Kanu took his goal expertly but was generally isolated and had very little support from midfield runners. We were always going to struggle with the long term injuries to Leaburn and Aneke, whilst May's back problem has only compounded matters.
There are some very tough fixtures coming up in the next 10 games and we have to hope that the players who come in this month hit the ground running and that we can retain Dobson and Blackett-Taylor. If not, we could be in a very worrying position going into March and the last 11 games of the season.
This is my concern with the forthcoming fixtures. Should we hit the relegation zone I fear we'd struggle to get out of it.
The Kanu goal was very much like the type of goal he would often get progressing through the ranks, and it was also very much like a Patrick Casey type of goal.
The Kanu goal was very much like the type of goal he would often get progressing through the ranks, and it was also very much like a Patrick Casey type of goal.
Poachers goal. Right place, right time, quick feet to get the shot off.
I was never a ‘believer’ of MA and would have kept Holden. However given we have our three strikers out injured plus at least two midfielders with Fraser going backwards. I do feel Appleton should have a window where he has input and responsibility in the squad, to show what he can do, or not.
It looks like MA will survive for now, that makes sense to me. Sacking the manager every six months - rinse & repeat; a recipe for chaos. I'm not concerned with his apparent ‘grey’ persona, Bowyer was the same.
???
Really don’t know why I posted that regarding Bowyer, past my bedtime I guess! Point I was (unsuccessfully ) trying to make was that when managers are on a run of poor performances/results they generally tend not to blame the players, wanting to protect them, and often come across poorly, putting an over optimistic gloss on the game.
Just have to say that I really enjoyed the away day yesterday. Good pubs, great atmosphere in the Charlton end and three goals to celebrate with fellow addicks. Had I stayed at home watching the match online, I’m sure I would have been thoroughly depressed. Yep there’s lots which needs sorting out but the players did put in a big shift and despite everything there’s still a strong connection between the away support and the players. Supporting Charlton has always been about sticking together and supporting far from perfect teams through some pretty crappy times, whatever league we are in. So I’m now back in Shropshire and looking forward to Burton away hopefully with a stronger squad.
Totally agree - I really enjoyed it - I’m sure I would have been annoyed if I had watched it on Charlton TV or followed the game on Live Score. Being there it was thoroughly entertaining and the away support despite the size was very vocal and properly supportive . We could easily have won but a draw was fair
I agree with many comments on here, but just keep reminding myself that we are in League 1, with League 1 players and try not to expect much better
What was the sign we used to have in the players tunnel ( & I might be going back to the premier days) something along the lines of "Excellence is expected, Effort is demanded". That should be the case whatever division we are in. Dobbo & Alfie are about the only 2 who can say they give 100% every game.
I agree with many comments on here, but just keep reminding myself that we are in League 1, with League 1 players and try not to expect much better
It's not unreasonable to expect OUR L1 players to be better than those of most of the other teams though. When you look at budgets and the relative sizes of the clubs.
And successful sides will have players capable of immediately stepping up to a higher division. Most of the Powell side for example were decent Championship players the next season.
I thought the entire game was a masterclass in defensive ineptitude, with Port Vale's even worse than ours. Where they were significantly better than us was in their attacking play and in their domination of midfield in the second half. It's just as well that their top scorer, Ben Garrity, was out.
There is a serious problem with our lack of resilience and, contrary to Appleton's usual assertion/excuse, it goes well beyond having to play too many youngsters. Yes we lack physicality and experience in the side but defects in the coaching and basic organisation of the team are just as important and that is down to him and his staff.
Whilst Maynard-Brewer was at fault for the second goal, he kept us in the game with a couple of excellent saves. Jones (inhibited by his early booking) had a poor game and, whilst Edun is good on the ball, he is a mediocre defender, who rarely stops crosses coming in and compounds it with his poor positional sense. We need a replacement.
The fact that we were overpowered in midfield in the second half is not a great surprise, given that Watson and Anderson are relatively lightweight and our two wingers - for all their attacking quality - offer little when we're out of possession. In fairness to Appleton, he has had three midfielders out injured practically all season and his only option on the bench was the ambling Scott Fraser, who is the last man you'd want to introduce into this sort of game when your backs are up against the wall. The fact that we've signed two midfield loanees suggests that we won't be seeing much (if anything) of Camara, Taylor and McGrandles this season.
Daniel Kanu took his goal expertly but was generally isolated and had very little support from midfield runners. We were always going to struggle with the long term injuries to Leaburn and Aneke, whilst May's back problem has only compounded matters.
There are some very tough fixtures coming up in the next 10 games and we have to hope that the players who come in this month hit the ground running and that we can retain Dobson and Blackett-Taylor. If not, we could be in a very worrying position going into March and the last 11 games of the season.
This is a great summary. To reiterate some of your points, Edun allowing players, offering little more than a turn of pace, to get past him is a concern and he has been in the team long enough now for judgements to be formed. With Thomas being the only possible replacement, his position is probably one of the safest in the team and the lack of competition could also explain his poor defensive performances.
Tyreece Campbell left their full back unmarked time after time yesterday, as CBT does every week (which isn’t helping Edun). Are they under instructions to allow this to happen or just being plain lazy? It’s a reason I am not a fan of 4-3-3 because there could be an expectation that the defensive midfielders should mop this up but, in my opinion, we should revert to 4-5-1 when defending so the instructions for our wingers is clearer. Still not convinced CBT and TC would bother though which is also an indictment of Appleton and whether he can get the best out of the team.
Still not calling for his head though as think it’s too soon but our defensive shape, particularly from set pieces, should be showing signed of improvement by now surely? Why are we still using the zonal / man to man mix at corners? I hate it because it means all 11 players drop in so there are less players unmarked and, as was proven by the penalty yesterday, it causes problems for the second and third defensive phases because the three zonal defenders then don’t know who to mark. This caused Anderson to be 1 v 2 after the corner and make that last ditch slide to block the cross.
I’m pretty sure Holden used the same system and even a manager or two before that? Please change it!
Blimey there was only 393 of us yesterday, I was under the impression it was just under 600 😂
Back to reality for us then, already seen some Port Vale fans say they were surprised at our low turnout for a so called 'big club'.
Pain.
Our dismal away record this season is clearly impacting numbers now.
ONE league away win all season. TWO away wins in all competitions, the other being at an 8th tier opponent in the FA Cup. Losing to L2 opponents in ALL THREE cup competitions.
Blimey there was only 393 of us yesterday, I was under the impression it was just under 600 😂
Back to reality for us then, already seen some Port Vale fans say they were surprised at our low turnout for a so called 'big club'.
Pain.
Our dismal away record this season is clearly impacting numbers now.
ONE league away win all season. TWO away wins in all competitions, the other being at an 8th tier opponent in the FA Cup. Losing to L2 opponents in ALL THREE cup competitions.
Blimey there was only 393 of us yesterday, I was under the impression it was just under 600 😂
Back to reality for us then, already seen some Port Vale fans say they were surprised at our low turnout for a so called 'big club'.
Pain.
Our dismal away record this season is clearly impacting numbers now.
ONE league away win all season. TWO away wins in all competitions, the other being at an 8th tier opponent in the FA Cup. Losing to L2 opponents in ALL THREE cup competitions.
Blimey there was only 393 of us yesterday, I was under the impression it was just under 600 😂
Back to reality for us then, already seen some Port Vale fans say they were surprised at our low turnout for a so called 'big club'.
Pain.
Our dismal away record this season is clearly impacting numbers now.
ONE league away win all season. TWO away wins in all competitions, the other being at an 8th tier opponent in the FA Cup. Losing to L2 opponents in ALL THREE cup competitions.
We haven't got any away league wins have we?
Wigan.
And nearly blew that after being 3-0 up at HT 😩. However only 415 away fans that day.
Comments
Btw, although I have some players that I don’t rate very highly I’m always happy when they play well.
I think we were lucky to get a point
There is a serious problem with our lack of resilience and, contrary to Appleton's usual assertion/excuse, it goes well beyond having to play too many youngsters. Yes we lack physicality and experience in the side but defects in the coaching and basic organisation of the team are just as important and that is down to him and his staff.
Whilst Maynard-Brewer was at fault for the second goal, he kept us in the game with a couple of excellent saves. Jones (inhibited by his early booking) had a poor game and, whilst Edun is good on the ball, he is a mediocre defender, who rarely stops crosses coming in and compounds it with his poor positional sense. We need a replacement.
The fact that we were overpowered in midfield in the second half is not a great surprise, given that Watson and Anderson are relatively lightweight and our two wingers - for all their attacking quality - offer little when we're out of possession. In fairness to Appleton, he has had three midfielders out injured practically all season and his only option on the bench was the ambling Scott Fraser, who is the last man you'd want to introduce into this sort of game when your backs are up against the wall. The fact that we've signed two midfield loanees suggests that we won't be seeing much (if anything) of Camara, Taylor and McGrandles this season.
Daniel Kanu took his goal expertly but was generally isolated and had very little support from midfield runners. We were always going to struggle with the long term injuries to Leaburn and Aneke, whilst May's back problem has only compounded matters.
There are some very tough fixtures coming up in the next 10 games and we have to hope that the players who come in this month hit the ground running and that we can retain Dobson and Blackett-Taylor. If not, we could be in a very worrying position going into March and the last 11 games of the season.
Although agree that Dobson does put in a shift
Should we hit the relegation zone I fear we'd struggle to get out of it.
Point I was (unsuccessfully ) trying to make was that when managers are on a run of poor performances/results they generally tend not to blame the players, wanting to protect them, and often come across poorly, putting an over optimistic gloss on the game.
And successful sides will have players capable of immediately stepping up to a higher division. Most of the Powell side for example were decent Championship players the next season.
Back to reality for us then, already seen some Port Vale fans say they were surprised at our low turnout for a so called 'big club'.
Pain.
Tyreece Campbell left their full back unmarked time after time yesterday, as CBT does every week (which isn’t helping Edun). Are they under instructions to allow this to happen or just being plain lazy? It’s a reason I am not a fan of 4-3-3 because there could be an expectation that the defensive midfielders should mop this up but, in my opinion, we should revert to 4-5-1 when defending so the instructions for our wingers is clearer. Still not convinced CBT and TC would bother though which is also an indictment of Appleton and whether he can get the best out of the team.
ONE league away win all season.
TWO away wins in all competitions, the other being at an 8th tier opponent in the FA Cup.
Losing to L2 opponents in ALL THREE cup competitions.