I think sacking him already is very knee jerky - we need stability, another manager comes in, then he will want his own players, own tactics - it all takes time to build again.
If in a months time we haven’t improved then you can start looking at replacements before the January window.
A new Manager wouldn't have to change the playing squad too much. I don't think the players are the problem this time. The tactics need changing quickly or it's bye bye NJ IMHO
I don’t tweet any more but this was one of my last…
I can’t tell you how disappointed I’ve been. None of that fire seems to have arrived, or quickly blew out. I’m staggered such an experienced manager 8 months into the job and with a full summer has assembled such an ineffective squad at this level and such limited style of play.
Out a cup in the first week of the season and bottom half of L1 come October. One first half goal in 10 games. One!!! And that was from a defensive mistake. Every single game the commentator will say ‘no shots on target yet from Charlton’ the only difference is they seem to be saying it further and further into the game.
I really don’t want to change managers again, we’ve allowed this guy to bring in his players but who the hell was overseeing this? A huge collection of averageness and not quite up to the pace to play 90 mins. Why was it not challenged we have no creativity?
This collectively really needs to be addressed quickly or we are facing yet another miserable, toxic season. Every one of them becomes more impacting than the last.
Can't sack him, it's too early and we won't attract a better manager.
The form isn't ideal, but it happens, Bolton lost 5 in a row or something and now they're above us, just have to hope we can achieve similar.
I think at the very least he deserves half a season, chopping and changing just isn't working for us. Less than 10 games in, you'd like to think we could back the team a bit more.
One thing for sure though, 532 doesn't work. We don't have the wing backs for it, and it's not worth us struggling in the middle for it. I'd like to see a back 4 of Edwards, Jones, Mitchell, Ramsay, and be more ambitious with the ball in the middle. This long ball shit won't cut it, fans are getting impatient.
He needs to work on that in these 2 weeks after the Brum game, or it's gonna get very toxic, and quickly.
A new Manager wouldn't have to change the playing squad too much. I don't think the players are the problem this time. The tactics need changing quickly or it's bye bye NJ IMHO
This. Give the players tactics that let them try to play a bit more football.
Assess the squad ahead of January and bring in a few signings to address the weak areas (attacking quality so far).
If he digs his heels in and doesn’t tweak the style we won’t improve and I can’t see the players sticking by him.
I was a big advocate for Jones from before he joined.
He turned it around last season and then had a full pre-season and control of transfers.
We also started well. The football was effective. Dull but effective and we did the most important thing which is "just win games".
Early games we had a system- work hard, press high, defend well. It wasn't pretty but it mostly worked.
Then NJ started tinkering. Dropping Mitchell was weird and since then few of the changes have made sense from the outside. Dropping Docherty, his captain, and Berry, one of our few scorers, was strange but not an isolated incident.
The late introduction of three Luton players (Potts, Hylton and A Campbell) has had no positive impact and perhaps behind the scenes has caused upset within the squad.
The lateness of the Luton signings also hints at some internal battles to get them signed. Was that budget or a fight for control with Scott.
We now seemed to be drifting, rigid style, constant changes of line up but not in formation, no creativity in midfield and six defensive outfield players including two wing backs who can't/won't/don't give us effective width and no midfielders to find them or to play an incisive through ball to forward runners.
And our set pieces are poor time and time again.
Jones manages in such a way that players have to buy into what he is doing and doing what he wants. He is fixated on a particular style of play. All great when he gets that buy in and the team is getting results, but terrible when it's not.
His "passion" on the sidelines has also started to grate with those that originally praised it when we were winning.
I don't know what the answer is. Four defeats was enough to get Holden sacked but constantly sacking managers isn't the answer either. We need stability but we also need points.
The owners must be absolutely distraught. They brought in a very well thought of and experienced manager which most people thought was a bit of a coup, backed him in the market to bring in his own players. Sell the golden boot. Give him what seems like enormous autonomy and 10 games in we’re in disarray. Scott has been the butt of a lot of criticism but I suspect he’s had very little or no influence and where he has then Jones has won the battle. We can’t continue to sack managers but where do we go from here ? Jones needs to change the tactics but do we have the players and is he too stubborn to do that. ? I don’t see Jones as a pragmatist. I wonder if some of this is a window into why Hart decided to call it a day.
I hate the manager churn but you have to accept when the problems are very apparent and are not resolvable by the manager; I actually think Holden could have done okay without awful resources.
In this instance, Jones has created a side and system that will quite simply not work and there is zero chance based on evidence of his entire career of him attempting to alter this.
No team gets promoted without ever being able to control a game and he is making zero attempt whatsoever to do this.
Luton was a fluke, for whatever reason their crest of a wave, side that grew together, tiny nasty little ground suited his style and enabled him to take them far, but by all accounts they improved after he left when Rob edwards replaced him.
I would not put it past Jones to pull out the odd additional win against one of the better teams, highly unlike but even this weekend against Birmingham it’s conceivable we could keep it tight and wrestle something from them in gritty unpleasant fashion. But there is simply 0% chance of us getting promoted or even being close to it playing the way we are playing every single game. We’re setting up how I’d expect Cambridge under Neil Harris to try and fight relegation.
Think he's running out of road. Heaped even more pressure on himself after last night's games saying it was his responsibility and it won't happen again. I wouldn't be so sure Nath!
He makes it sound like the first couple of games were rosy and we need to get back to that level! In honesty, we were atrocious for large parts of those games. We could easily have lost them.
One other thing of note from his post match was that he never once mentioned the attacking frailties. It's always about the defensive ones and an inability to keep clean sheets. So it's all on the defence. And attackers like Ahadme can swan about doing f**k all. Should think that kind of attitude will lead to a bit of tension within the squad. He really is making life difficult for himself.
I'm usually one to offer reserve and loyalty when it comes to managers, but I think Jones will be gone within 2 months, with us in or near the relegation zone
I'm usually one to offer reserve and loyalty when it comes to managers, but I think Jones will be gone within 2 months, with us in or near the relegation zone
I don’t. I suspect we’ll stumble along just enough for the “give him time” ethos to carry enough weight.
The real worry for me is Nathan Jones himself. He’s barking mad and that’s fine when things are going well. When it’s not he has form of losing the plot completely. I wonder where we sit with that currently.
Can't sack him, it's too early and we won't attract a better manager.
The form isn't ideal, but it happens, Bolton lost 5 in a row or something and now they're above us, just have to hope we can achieve similar.
I think at the very least he deserves half a season, chopping and changing just isn't working for us. Less than 10 games in, you'd like to think we could back the team a bit more.
One thing for sure though, 532 doesn't work. We don't have the wing backs for it, and it's not worth us struggling in the middle for it. I'd like to see a back 4 of Edwards, Jones, Mitchell, Ramsay, and be more ambitious with the ball in the middle. This long ball shit won't cut it, fans are getting impatient.
He needs to work on that in these 2 weeks after the Brum game, or it's gonna get very toxic, and quickly.
Totally agree with this. Those are 4 very solid defenders and I think it would be worth the risk to drop a CB and get someone else in the midfield or up front. Maybe it would allow TC to play out wide and get the ball to feet in order to give us a bit more attacking impetus. Not sure I'd do it against Birmingham as that game will be about clinging on for a point, but certainly in future.
My biggest worry re Jones is that he's gone from looking like the energiser bunny to a broken man in about 5 games. Something weird has happened beyond a poor run of form I think.
A football club appoints a manager thinking they can do the job required and bring success.
IMO at this level Jones was a fantastic appointment, he then kept us up by changing results immediately from a very dangerous position.
It seems that we need to change our pattern of play as we are not creating many chances, coupled with the football is not very attractive.
I would suggest that we sold May to bring in some money and fund the players that have been brought in, I still think the recruitment has been on the cheap and to a degree Jones' hands are tied.
Jones seems to be the type of person that will say what he thinks so I'd not be surprised if things may well get a bit frosty behind the scenes should results not pick up.
Quality posts from Henry and AFKA and it does feel that the dropping of Mitchell against Blackpool was the Catalyst which started the house of cards to tumble which may be impossible to stop. Throw in the dropping of Docherty the captain and Small being unhappy on being subbed in the 1st half at the valley and the mood can change very quickly in the results business of football.
Winning ugly is acceptable but not ideal but losing ugly against bog standard 3rd tier teams can only lead to Opprobrium and derision.
Just a thought, three clubs who are enjoying some success at present have appointed managers with very little playing experience at the professional level; Ipswich, Birmingham and Lincoln, clubs of a similar size to us who have had little success until quite recently. (Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager) Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management. I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
Just a thought, three clubs who are enjoying some success at present have appointed managers with very little playing experience at the professional level; Ipswich, Birmingham and Lincoln, clubs of a similar size to us who have had little success until quite recently. (Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager) Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management. I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
Although I never rated him anyway, you could say we have already tried that with Garner and that never worked out.
A football club appoints a manager thinking they can do the job required and bring success.
IMO at this level Jones was a fantastic appointment, he then kept us up by changing results immediately from a very dangerous position.
It seems that we need to change our pattern of play as we are not creating many chances, coupled with the football is not very attractive.
I would suggest that we sold May to bring in some money and fund the players that have been brought in, I still think the recruitment has been on the cheap and to a degree Jones' hands are tied.
Jones seems to be the type of person that will say what he thinks so I'd not be surprised if things may well get a bit frosty behind the scenes should results not pick up.
Agree and i beleive this has been the problem for years. Regardless of who the manager is they will struggle with this level of investment. I think managers roles are overstated anyway, get the players right and everything else falls into place.
I'm usually one to offer reserve and loyalty when it comes to managers, but I think Jones will be gone within 2 months, with us in or near the relegation zone
I don't know about that, things can change fairly quickly. If he does manage to arrest the slide and scrape a couple of wins and draws over October he'll stay in place.
It will take a really catastrophic run of form to get him sacked before Christmas and as bad as last night was I'm hoping that was the absolute depths and we'll be if nothing else "less bad."
Just a thought, three clubs who are enjoying some success at present have appointed managers with very little playing experience at the professional level; Ipswich, Birmingham and Lincoln, clubs of a similar size to us who have had little success until quite recently. (Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager) Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management. I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
Although I never rated him anyway, you could say we have already tried that with Garner and that never worked out.
not a proper comparison, Garner had spent a few years managing EFL clubs before joining us, and then had to manage under a very dodgy owner, not to excuse his bad management though
I really can’t get behind any calls to sack another manager when he stopped the bleeding post Holden & Appleton.
If this losing run continues much longer maybe there’s a conversation to have approaching Christmas.
We were 3-0 down to the team with the worst Xg/Xa.
Callum has been hoisted by his own petard
I mean they only had 0.56 xG so about in keeping with what they manage every other game but yeah, you got me!
Why did they score 3 times from 0.56 xG against us and not anybody else??? Because we’re Charlton and we’re cursed.
That proves one thing . This xG fad is a total load of nonsense and always has been.
It's not a fad, it's useful data people just often use it wrongly. xG is a good indicator of the likelihood of form continuing or changing in the future. A player might have a run of goals or a team might have a run of wins but their xG being low likely indicates that they're finishing chances that are extremely difficult and not creating very certain ones. People get very upset when xG is quoted for one game because they think the data is telling them the team should have won when they were rubbish when it isn't that at all, it's just an assessment of the quality of chances created. Rovers' xG being low against us yesterday is an indicator that they didn't play substantially better than they usually do, we were just pretty poor and allowed them too much space to bang shots in. Conversely, bad as we were we did create pretty good chances across the game; Mitchell couldn't miss, Jones shouldn't have and Godden's was exactly where you'd want it to be as a striker. Our three big chances were much easier to put away than theirs they just actually put theirs away. xG not being reflective of an outcome doesn't mean it's useless, its just means it's answering a different question to the one being asked.
I hate the manager churn but you have to accept when the problems are very apparent and are not resolvable by the manager; I actually think Holden could have done okay without awful resources.
In this instance, Jones has created a side and system that will quite simply not work and there is zero chance based on evidence of his entire career of him attempting to alter this.
No team gets promoted without ever being able to control a game and he is making zero attempt whatsoever to do this.
Luton was a fluke, for whatever reason their crest of a wave, side that grew together, tiny nasty little ground suited his style and enabled him to take them far, but by all accounts they improved after he left when Rob edwards replaced him.
I would not put it past Jones to pull out the odd additional win against one of the better teams, highly unlike but even this weekend against Birmingham it’s conceivable we could keep it tight and wrestle something from them in gritty unpleasant fashion. But there is simply 0% chance of us getting promoted or even being close to it playing the way we are playing every single game. We’re setting up how I’d expect Cambridge under Neil Harris to try and fight relegation.
This with knobs on. I’ve kept my tinder dry as I recognise that I’ve been massively in the minority as I didn’t want Jones in the first place. I’ve never met the bloke but from what I’ve seen he is a one hit wonder and someone who is one dodgy press conference away from being a laughing stock. Despite my reticence, I have supported him so far and thankful that he managed to keep us afloat last year. But this season has been an unmitigated disaster. Signing his old past it chums and playing the dullest form of hoofball imaginable is not the stuff that fills the Valley and he is being found out bigstyle. It gives no pleasure to write that, but I’m not surprised in the slightest. I hope he turns it round and I look forward to the big slice of humble pie but I’m not taking it out of the freezer anytime soon.
Comments
If in a months time we haven’t improved then you can start looking at replacements before the January window.
The tactics need changing quickly or it's bye bye NJ IMHO
I really don’t want to change managers again, we’ve allowed this guy to bring in his players but who the hell was overseeing this? A huge collection of averageness and not quite up to the pace to play 90 mins. Why was it not challenged we have no creativity?
The form isn't ideal, but it happens, Bolton lost 5 in a row or something and now they're above us, just have to hope we can achieve similar.
I think at the very least he deserves half a season, chopping and changing just isn't working for us. Less than 10 games in, you'd like to think we could back the team a bit more.
One thing for sure though, 532 doesn't work. We don't have the wing backs for it, and it's not worth us struggling in the middle for it. I'd like to see a back 4 of Edwards, Jones, Mitchell, Ramsay, and be more ambitious with the ball in the middle. This long ball shit won't cut it, fans are getting impatient.
He needs to work on that in these 2 weeks after the Brum game, or it's gonna get very toxic, and quickly.
If he digs his heels in and doesn’t tweak the style we won’t improve and I can’t see the players sticking by him.
He turned it around last season and then had a full pre-season and control of transfers.
We also started well. The football was effective. Dull but effective and we did the most important thing which is "just win games".
Early games we had a system- work hard, press high, defend well. It wasn't pretty but it mostly worked.
Then NJ started tinkering. Dropping Mitchell was weird and since then few of the changes have made sense from the outside. Dropping Docherty, his captain, and Berry, one of our few scorers, was strange but not an isolated incident.
The late introduction of three Luton players (Potts, Hylton and A Campbell) has had no positive impact and perhaps behind the scenes has caused upset within the squad.
The lateness of the Luton signings also hints at some internal battles to get them signed. Was that budget or a fight for control with Scott.
We now seemed to be drifting, rigid style, constant changes of line up but not in formation, no creativity in midfield and six defensive outfield players including two wing backs who can't/won't/don't give us effective width and no midfielders to find them or to play an incisive through ball to forward runners.
And our set pieces are poor time and time again.
Jones manages in such a way that players have to buy into what he is doing and doing what he wants. He is fixated on a particular style of play. All great when he gets that buy in and the team is getting results, but terrible when it's not.
His "passion" on the sidelines has also started to grate with those that originally praised it when we were winning.
I don't know what the answer is. Four defeats was enough to get Holden sacked but constantly sacking managers isn't the answer either. We need stability but we also need points.
Luton was a fluke, for whatever reason their crest of a wave, side that grew together, tiny nasty little ground suited his style and enabled him to take them far, but by all accounts they improved after he left when Rob edwards replaced him.
Heaped even more pressure on himself after last night's games saying it was his responsibility and it won't happen again. I wouldn't be so sure Nath!
He makes it sound like the first couple of games were rosy and we need to get back to that level!
In honesty, we were atrocious for large parts of those games. We could easily have lost them.
One other thing of note from his post match was that he never once mentioned the attacking frailties. It's always about the defensive ones and an inability to keep clean sheets.
So it's all on the defence. And attackers like Ahadme can swan about doing f**k all. Should think that kind of attitude will lead to a bit of tension within the squad.
He really is making life difficult for himself.
The real worry for me is Nathan Jones himself. He’s barking mad and that’s fine when things are going well. When it’s not he has form of losing the plot completely. I wonder where we sit with that currently.
My biggest worry re Jones is that he's gone from looking like the energiser bunny to a broken man in about 5 games. Something weird has happened beyond a poor run of form I think.
Winning ugly is acceptable but not ideal but losing ugly against bog standard 3rd tier teams can only lead to Opprobrium and derision.
(Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager)
Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management.
I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
I think managers roles are overstated anyway, get the players right and everything else falls into place.
It will take a really catastrophic run of form to get him sacked before Christmas and as bad as last night was I'm hoping that was the absolute depths and we'll be if nothing else "less bad."
We need stability, but how long do we try for stability before it is too late.
All the players Jones signed AND started played poorly yesterday.
Godden the only Jones signing to show any real drive and effort.
If we continue down this path November will have to be his end.