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UKIP win a seat

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  • edited October 2014

    smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
  • smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
  • smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
    Common MrFortune 82nd Minute. You know why your son would agree with Smiffyboy don't you? You said he would back up his every word. Wages being driven down by immigration was Smiffyboy's suggestion. Who do you think pays those wages? i.e sets the rate, offers them to your son and others, and physically makes the payment for work completed? Who do you reckon does that? That's where your son should aim his fire i suggest and not against others in basically the same boat as himself.
  • smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
    Common MrFortune 82nd Minute. You know why your son would agree with Smiffyboy don't you? You said he would back up his every word. Wages being driven down by immigration was Smiffyboy's suggestion. Who do you think pays those wages? i.e sets the rate, offers them to your son and others, and physically makes the payment for work completed? Who do you reckon does that? That's where your son should aim his fire i suggest and not against others in basically the same boat as himself.
    You really don't get it do you
  • Divide and conquer.
  • smiffyboy said:

    smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.

    The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
    Sorry mate but you really have no idea of the real world.

    Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.

    My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.

    As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
  • smiffyboy said:

    smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.

    The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
    Sorry mate but you really have no idea of the real world.

    Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.

    My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.

    As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
    Yeah - you say it like the Eastern Europeans are masterminding the whole process!
  • Thought experiment: all Eastern Europeans are mysteriously deported tonight; suddenly there are lots of jobs that need doing; English labourers get to 'call the shots'. Or do they? Who sets the wages? Who will always look to find cheaper? Who will play the English labourers off against each other? Who else will raise house and rental prices due to sudden UK exclusivity? And who has just violated along racial lines the rights of hundreds of thousands of workers?
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  • What about straight bananas ?
  • Hmmm... I'm a patent attorney and we directly compete for business with every member of the European patent convention. Not EU, but an autonomous legal system. A pole, a German or someone from Switzerland not even in the EU could nick my business. Its not just the working man... Everyone is affected by a global society and ukip can do fuck all about it. Either you bitch and blame everyone else or you deal with it and make people want to work with you.
  • It matters to me very much when beautiful countryside is built on, to house an ever increasing population.

    Not far from where I live, there is an application to build 450 houses on land which currently produces arable crops and a beautiful part of the countryside will be lost forever. There is another application to build 5000 houses on a Site of Special Scientific Interest.

    The roads near these areas are already at saturation point at peak times and the congestion these new developments will cause, will be massive.

    When we get high pressure and no wind is blowing, where will the electricity be generated?

    I'm not very good at posting links but the website produced by the Optimum Population Trust has some very good statistics.
  • Leuth, why are you trying to find racist comments that aren't there?

    Me14 never once mentioned anything about Eastern European labourers. She simply mentioned that the current governments rules on immigration are too loose and need tightening so to speak.

    Everything smithy, FIT82M and robbo on the wing are saying about construction is 100% correct. They're not saying it's the Eastern Europeans fault. If we had the option to go somewhere and earn more money then we would, right? They're saying it's the governments fault.

    All you have to do is look at the dry lining trade. Been on the same site for over a year and I've met 4 English dry liners. All the rest are foreign. The English blokes have all said the same thing, the Europeans have priced them out of it. Some are being paid a mere 200 pound a week! So the English guys are then priced out of work, can't you understand why English tradesmen are going to be a bit disgruntled?
  • edited October 2014
    .
  • Thanks Greenie Junior, I certainly didn't mention Eastern Europeans and I am no racist.

    It seems to me that those who are worried by the rise of UKIP love to pay the racist card.
  • edited October 2014

    Thanks Greenie Junior, I certainly didn't mention Eastern Europeans and I am no racist.

    It seems to me that those who are worried by the rise of UKIP love to pay the racist card.

    It's because that's the only card they think they have, what else can they say about Ukip? Farage and co seem to be having people running scared.

    I don't know much about politics. I don't vote.

    I know a few of Ukips policies, and I like what I see but I don't know enough about them, so it would be ignorant of me to vote for them.
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  • I played no racist card! You can't move the goalposts - you were talking about immigration and so was I. Eastern European thrown in as an example, because it's the one UKIP themselves love to focus on. I'm not saying you're remotely a racist, just that there are other villains in this piece who might better deserve your ire.
  • This whole situation is testament to the damning failure of the political elite!
    That's it.
    Camerons conservatives are on fire...(Boris will fix it later)
    The Labour leadership are failing to connect with those very voters whom they were set up to represent. FFS a Dulwich college city guy is more in touch than the whole labour movement.
  • Croydon said:

    aliwibble said:

    But apart from stopping immigration and leaving the EU, what are UKIP's policies?

    I don't really know, and tbh I don't really care. But if the other parties start to face these two issues head on because of UKIP's popularity then that's a good thing in my opinion.
    So if UKIP's policies were to privatise the NHS, move to a flat rate income tax (which would mean lower earners would have to pay a higher percentage to make up for the shortfall in revenue from higher earners - I think 31% was suggested) abolish the minimum wage, maternity leave entitlement and other employment protections, you'd still be happy to vote for them as long as they took us out of the EU?

  • aliwibble said:

    But apart from stopping immigration and leaving the EU, what are UKIP's policies?

    Back in May I had to do a bit of research into UKIP's policies because one of my union members had complained that our union had at national conference denounced UKIP. There was no manifesto or any policies on anything other than those two issues. They had produced a manifesto for the last election but even Farage has since described it as gobbledygook. That manifesto was anti trade union and also pro-privatisation of public services, which I pointed out to him. He never responded. UKIP won't have a long term future unless they get some proper policies.
  • edited October 2014

    smiffyboy said:

    What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.

    Absolutely spot on.

    My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.

    Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".

    Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
    Sponsors of the politicians so that their cushy businesses continues to exploit... And the rest of us keeping them going by buying their services as they're cheaper than the local tradespeople, I suppose... :(
  • UKIP aren't trying to create division or "pit nation against nation" - All they want is proper border controls. It is responses like yours above which stifles the debate.

    I actually think UKIP bring forward policies which seek to address the root cause of a lot of problems we currently face in the UK, instead of offering hazy, unclear liberal wishy-washy policies which everyone knows won't work.
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