What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
Common MrFortune 82nd Minute. You know why your son would agree with Smiffyboy don't you? You said he would back up his every word. Wages being driven down by immigration was Smiffyboy's suggestion. Who do you think pays those wages? i.e sets the rate, offers them to your son and others, and physically makes the payment for work completed? Who do you reckon does that? That's where your son should aim his fire i suggest and not against others in basically the same boat as himself.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Sorry - genuinely don't understand what you are on about.
Common MrFortune 82nd Minute. You know why your son would agree with Smiffyboy don't you? You said he would back up his every word. Wages being driven down by immigration was Smiffyboy's suggestion. Who do you think pays those wages? i.e sets the rate, offers them to your son and others, and physically makes the payment for work completed? Who do you reckon does that? That's where your son should aim his fire i suggest and not against others in basically the same boat as himself.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
Sorry mate but you really have no idea of the real world.
Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.
My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.
As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
Sorry mate but you really have no idea of the real world.
Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.
My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.
As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
The real world is a place where rich, mostly white people allow cheap labour into the country so that they can exploit them. It's the disease that needs dealing with, not just the symptoms.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Supply and demand, it's a dog eat dog world employers ain't gonna pay more than they need to maximising profit, if Eastern European Dimitrov will do it for £80 a day he ain't gonna pay Dave £150, but you sit behind your desk in your office where they ain't driving your wages down so you wouldn't understand, take a step out and onto a building site and you will see the true problem immigration has caused.
The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
Sorry mate but you really have no idea of the real world.
Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.
My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.
As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
Yeah - you say it like the Eastern Europeans are masterminding the whole process!
Thought experiment: all Eastern Europeans are mysteriously deported tonight; suddenly there are lots of jobs that need doing; English labourers get to 'call the shots'. Or do they? Who sets the wages? Who will always look to find cheaper? Who will play the English labourers off against each other? Who else will raise house and rental prices due to sudden UK exclusivity? And who has just violated along racial lines the rights of hundreds of thousands of workers?
It annoys me that some people try to make it appear that anyone who votes for UKIP is a racist.
I voted for UKIP in the European elections after voting conservative all my life. I am very worried about population growth in this country. Some immigration is good for the country, but we are now seeing the problems caused by too many people coming to this country.
Classes in school are becoming overcrowded and there aren't enough houses so the countryside is being spoiled by building on greenfield sites. The health service is suffering because demands on its services are increasing at an alarming rate. Our roads are at saturation point at peak times. You only have to have an accident on one of the major roads in Kent, for all other roads to be affected for miles around.
I want England to remain a green and pleasant land not covered in houses and useless wind turbines.
The Common Market that I voted to join many years ago has changed out of all recognition and is no longer just a trading group. Now we have bureaucrats in Brussels making stupid rules like limiting the power of vacuum cleaners and hair dryers.
There are plenty of people like me who fear for the future of our country
They have been for ages. The education system in this country is broken & in need of urgent reform. It's built along Victorian factory principles at present.
"and there aren't enough houses so the countryside is being spoiled by building on greenfield sites"
The Eastern European labourers are choosing greenfield sites, right? Glamorous leafy surrounds with glamorous luxury flats that have glamorous commanding views of our green and pleasant land - the Eastern European labourers are the ones moving into those flats? You say it like there isn't a litany of brownfield housing. The Morris Walk Estate, which I live beside, is mostly empty, because it's quite close to being bulldozed...for 'affordable, mixed' housing. Luxury flats, in other words. The developers are the ones you ought to bear the grudge against.
"The health service is suffering because demands on its services are increasing at an alarming rate."
Doing pretty well considering how much funding it's had slashed.
"Our roads are at saturation point at peak times."
Yeah uh do you know what government policy has been regarding public transport over the last 50 years? Also, more people commute long distances now because of raised house prices in urban areas. They've been pushed out faster than the road network can be expanded.
"I want England to remain a green and pleasant land not covered in houses and useless wind turbines."
It is - unless the developers have their way. As for 'useless wind turbines', they're mostly offshore now, and they're far from useless. I get my energy from Ecotricity, and it's cheaper than the alternative.
"Now we have bureaucrats in Brussels making stupid rules like limiting the power of vacuum cleaners and hair dryers."
This is a 'hilarious'/'ludicrous' & of course utterly meaningless strawman, trumpeted as if to make some point. Cite your sources & explain why any of it matters, or how it affects your life.
Hmmm... I'm a patent attorney and we directly compete for business with every member of the European patent convention. Not EU, but an autonomous legal system. A pole, a German or someone from Switzerland not even in the EU could nick my business. Its not just the working man... Everyone is affected by a global society and ukip can do fuck all about it. Either you bitch and blame everyone else or you deal with it and make people want to work with you.
It matters to me very much when beautiful countryside is built on, to house an ever increasing population.
Not far from where I live, there is an application to build 450 houses on land which currently produces arable crops and a beautiful part of the countryside will be lost forever. There is another application to build 5000 houses on a Site of Special Scientific Interest.
The roads near these areas are already at saturation point at peak times and the congestion these new developments will cause, will be massive.
When we get high pressure and no wind is blowing, where will the electricity be generated?
I'm not very good at posting links but the website produced by the Optimum Population Trust has some very good statistics.
Leuth, why are you trying to find racist comments that aren't there?
Me14 never once mentioned anything about Eastern European labourers. She simply mentioned that the current governments rules on immigration are too loose and need tightening so to speak.
Everything smithy, FIT82M and robbo on the wing are saying about construction is 100% correct. They're not saying it's the Eastern Europeans fault. If we had the option to go somewhere and earn more money then we would, right? They're saying it's the governments fault.
All you have to do is look at the dry lining trade. Been on the same site for over a year and I've met 4 English dry liners. All the rest are foreign. The English blokes have all said the same thing, the Europeans have priced them out of it. Some are being paid a mere 200 pound a week! So the English guys are then priced out of work, can't you understand why English tradesmen are going to be a bit disgruntled?
It looks as if what is motivating the political agenda is pissed offness. UKIP have simply hung around long enough to tap into the disaffection, and they really don't need any practical policies to trawl up the votes of the pissed off. It looks like the next election will be about voting against stuff rather than voting for stuff.
On a slight aside regarding the NHS. With private health in America would an Ebola victim in the United states be refused treatment if they didn't have health insurance, or if somehow they were treated who would pick up the bill? This is 'no man is an island' territory, and of course UKIP in their philosophy would like to foster an island mentality.
One potential benefit of living in wider communities is that global problems like the environment, disease, terrorism, economic disasters, natural disasters and so on can be tackled collaboratively. Pulling up drawbridges is at best only a temporary solution, but it is a solution being sold by UKIP and others with nationalistic tendencies.
I played no racist card! You can't move the goalposts - you were talking about immigration and so was I. Eastern European thrown in as an example, because it's the one UKIP themselves love to focus on. I'm not saying you're remotely a racist, just that there are other villains in this piece who might better deserve your ire.
This whole situation is testament to the damning failure of the political elite! That's it. Camerons conservatives are on fire...(Boris will fix it later) The Labour leadership are failing to connect with those very voters whom they were set up to represent. FFS a Dulwich college city guy is more in touch than the whole labour movement.
But apart from stopping immigration and leaving the EU, what are UKIP's policies?
I don't really know, and tbh I don't really care. But if the other parties start to face these two issues head on because of UKIP's popularity then that's a good thing in my opinion.
So if UKIP's policies were to privatise the NHS, move to a flat rate income tax (which would mean lower earners would have to pay a higher percentage to make up for the shortfall in revenue from higher earners - I think 31% was suggested) abolish the minimum wage, maternity leave entitlement and other employment protections, you'd still be happy to vote for them as long as they took us out of the EU?
But apart from stopping immigration and leaving the EU, what are UKIP's policies?
Back in May I had to do a bit of research into UKIP's policies because one of my union members had complained that our union had at national conference denounced UKIP. There was no manifesto or any policies on anything other than those two issues. They had produced a manifesto for the last election but even Farage has since described it as gobbledygook. That manifesto was anti trade union and also pro-privatisation of public services, which I pointed out to him. He never responded. UKIP won't have a long term future unless they get some proper policies.
What people don't understand is the wages in the construction industry are being driven down by immigration. The average home owner in this country needs to earn a decent wage a day to cover the cost of their mortgage, council tax, energy bills etc whilst supporting their family. When you get a group of 10 Eastern Europeans living in a house together sharing the bills amongst them they may only need £140 a week to cover the cost, this results in them agreeing to work for £80 a day as they don't need to earn as much as me and you. This then means employers know they can get labour for a lower price and so when we walk on a job that is all they are willing to pay hence keeping wages down and to a minimum, I've been quite fortunate I've landed an excellent job but go back two years and I was earning the same as when I finished my apprentaship 14 years ago, when really with growth and inflation I should of been getting a lot more but you can't and that's because immigration drives the cost down, fellow tradesmen are struggling and agencies are as bad.
Absolutely spot on.
My son is a self-employed carpenter and would back up absolutely every word you say.
Problem is all these public school idiots like Cameron, Clegg and Milliband live in a world far removed from the realities of the working man. And they are all now surprised to find that people are saying "we've had enough of this".
Who do you two reckon pays the wages?
Sponsors of the politicians so that their cushy businesses continues to exploit... And the rest of us keeping them going by buying their services as they're cheaper than the local tradespeople, I suppose...
Anyone who tries to make out that the huge rate of immigration into the UK in the last ten years is simply a minor issue is deluded. The face of the country has been changed forever and its all down to the labour party.
I am a liberal and as long as I have a hole in my a*se I will always be one, small "l" and large "L".
I have spent my adult life opposing nationalism and xenophobia.
I am passionately pro - European - not because the EU is faultless, it plainly is far from that, but because I believe that the EU is the best way the peoples of Europe can put behind them the ancient emnities that resulted in two catastrophic world wars during the 20th Century.
Of course NATO was formed to put a structure to the armed forces but it is economic strength and a spreading of economic benefit which will stop people from huddling around their nationalist narrow horizons.
I am angry that the party I have supported all my life has got themselves into a disastrous state. They did the right thing going into coalition - it showed huge courage given they were bound to take a kicking. Unfortunately even I didn't expect them to have made such a horlicks of things. The student loans fiasco was so poorly handled and Clegg looked far too much like his head was up Cameron's jacksie for far too long. They should have dumped him at least a year ago in my view.
It troubles me even more than when nationalism is on the rise in our country, when civil liberties are being threatened every day, when a reemergence of the nasty party has jettisoned the "green crap", and wants to withdraw from the Human Rights legislation written by British Lawyers and given life by one W S Churchill, when Labour is weak and it's policies are ill - defined, and when the positive case for the EU is never more than a whisper; the country needs a strong progressive party as a counter - weight to all of this yet it is unable to get its message across due to the toxicity of its leader.
The Lib Dems will take a huge kicking at the next General Election - they will lose many seats. UKIP may well gain a larger share of the vote, and some MPs but I don't see them getting anything more than a dozen or so.
This may lead to a realignment of politics in this country with UKIP maybe even replacing the Tories as the right of centre party over the next few years. What I do know is there will always be progressive centre left leaning Liberal (Lib Dem) Party that is not classed based, it may never break the mold, I am pretty certain it won't win a majority in my lifetime but there are millions of people like me who will never turn to parties who pit nation against nation, that seek to create division, by class or otherwise and find scapegoats to blame for all the ills of citizens lives.
As regard the EU, We are at a crossroads. The EU is in crisis - the Euro-zone is a car crash.
Don't let it's problems though blind us from the fact that if it all falls apart - all of the countries, including us will be massively and negatively affected. We are are seeing an economic downturn in our economy as a direct result of recession in the Euro-zone already. Imagine the fall out if the market collapsed?
It's all very well Farage and UKIP wanting us out but they ignore the huge economic disaster that will bring. He can claim that in the long run we will trade successfully from outside - it ain't going to happen in any time scale that won't result in economic disaster followed by huge levels of unemployment . Those who support smiley Nige now will be burning him in effergy should he get his way as the UK economy falls off the cliff.
What really f*cks me off is that there is no proper debate. Clegg screwed it up by playing the man, not the ball whilst the biggest beasts in UK politics looked the other way, or buried their heads in the sand.
Call me Dave is offering a referendum but in truth he doesn't want one and will find any excuse to want to stay in. Silibland has a policy on Europe which is completely incoherent. Why he doesn't offer a referendum god only knows?
I believe the time is overdue for a referendum and we can't duck it any longer. I will be out there fighting for our country to remain part of a market and a group of countries which does allow free movement of labour - which will, despite its many faults, remain a huge trading area for the benefit of jobs and prosperity - especially once the Euro-zone has resolved it's structural weaknesses.
UKIP aren't trying to create division or "pit nation against nation" - All they want is proper border controls. It is responses like yours above which stifles the debate.
I actually think UKIP bring forward policies which seek to address the root cause of a lot of problems we currently face in the UK, instead of offering hazy, unclear liberal wishy-washy policies which everyone knows won't work.
immigration is not the root problem of alot of the problems we face in the UK. Proper border controls won't stop corporations, banks and governments raping us. As SHG put it, divide and conquer is at play here, too many people are falling for it
Comments
The employers love you to think they are at the mercy of market forces, and they love it if you blame someone else other than them. Maybe you are an employer, or maybe you believe in market forces and want to go along with it and hope you can outcompete your fellow workers. Or you could unionise and take on the employers. Real world enough for you?
Let me just re-iterate what smiffyboy has said. When my son was training as an apprentice about 8 years ago, the guys who were training him were earning between £150 - £200 a day. But up until recently - rates have increased just recently owing to a shortage of skilled labour - if he earned £100 a day through an agency he was doing blooming well. That's the facts of what has happened in this country. And it happened because we let a whole load of people in who were prepared to work for peanuts.
My son was building up a good little business until the Eastern Europeans were let in. Now he quotes for jobs and constantly finds he's been undercut by Eastern Europeans charging prices that can only mean either a) they are not paying taxes or b) they must be living in crowded accommodation, meaning their outlay on rent is minimal so they can work for less. My son simply cannot compete with the prices they are quoting and still pay his bills and as a result he is struggling to make a living despite working his balls off.
As I say, there's more and more people who are beginning to say enough.
I voted for UKIP in the European elections after voting conservative all my life. I am very worried about population growth in this country. Some immigration is good for the country, but we are now seeing the problems caused by too many people coming to this country.
Classes in school are becoming overcrowded and there aren't enough houses so the countryside is being spoiled by building on greenfield sites. The health service is suffering because demands on its services are increasing at an alarming rate. Our roads are at saturation point at peak times. You only have to have an accident on one of the major roads in Kent, for all other roads to be affected for miles around.
I want England to remain a green and pleasant land not covered in houses and useless wind turbines.
The Common Market that I voted to join many years ago has changed out of all recognition and is no longer just a trading group. Now we have bureaucrats in Brussels making stupid rules like limiting the power of vacuum cleaners and hair dryers.
There are plenty of people like me who fear for the future of our country
They have been for ages. The education system in this country is broken & in need of urgent reform. It's built along Victorian factory principles at present.
"and there aren't enough houses so the countryside is being spoiled by building on greenfield sites"
The Eastern European labourers are choosing greenfield sites, right? Glamorous leafy surrounds with glamorous luxury flats that have glamorous commanding views of our green and pleasant land - the Eastern European labourers are the ones moving into those flats? You say it like there isn't a litany of brownfield housing. The Morris Walk Estate, which I live beside, is mostly empty, because it's quite close to being bulldozed...for 'affordable, mixed' housing. Luxury flats, in other words. The developers are the ones you ought to bear the grudge against.
"The health service is suffering because demands on its services are increasing at an alarming rate."
Doing pretty well considering how much funding it's had slashed.
"Our roads are at saturation point at peak times."
Yeah uh do you know what government policy has been regarding public transport over the last 50 years? Also, more people commute long distances now because of raised house prices in urban areas. They've been pushed out faster than the road network can be expanded.
"I want England to remain a green and pleasant land not covered in houses and useless wind turbines."
It is - unless the developers have their way. As for 'useless wind turbines', they're mostly offshore now, and they're far from useless. I get my energy from Ecotricity, and it's cheaper than the alternative.
"Now we have bureaucrats in Brussels making stupid rules like limiting the power of vacuum cleaners and hair dryers."
This is a 'hilarious'/'ludicrous' & of course utterly meaningless strawman, trumpeted as if to make some point. Cite your sources & explain why any of it matters, or how it affects your life.
Not far from where I live, there is an application to build 450 houses on land which currently produces arable crops and a beautiful part of the countryside will be lost forever. There is another application to build 5000 houses on a Site of Special Scientific Interest.
The roads near these areas are already at saturation point at peak times and the congestion these new developments will cause, will be massive.
When we get high pressure and no wind is blowing, where will the electricity be generated?
I'm not very good at posting links but the website produced by the Optimum Population Trust has some very good statistics.
Me14 never once mentioned anything about Eastern European labourers. She simply mentioned that the current governments rules on immigration are too loose and need tightening so to speak.
Everything smithy, FIT82M and robbo on the wing are saying about construction is 100% correct. They're not saying it's the Eastern Europeans fault. If we had the option to go somewhere and earn more money then we would, right? They're saying it's the governments fault.
All you have to do is look at the dry lining trade. Been on the same site for over a year and I've met 4 English dry liners. All the rest are foreign. The English blokes have all said the same thing, the Europeans have priced them out of it. Some are being paid a mere 200 pound a week! So the English guys are then priced out of work, can't you understand why English tradesmen are going to be a bit disgruntled?
On a slight aside regarding the NHS. With private health in America would an Ebola victim in the United states be refused treatment if they didn't have health insurance, or if somehow they were treated who would pick up the bill? This is 'no man is an island' territory, and of course UKIP in their philosophy would like to foster an island mentality.
One potential benefit of living in wider communities is that global problems like the environment, disease, terrorism, economic disasters, natural disasters and so on can be tackled collaboratively. Pulling up drawbridges is at best only a temporary solution, but it is a solution being sold by UKIP and others with nationalistic tendencies.
It seems to me that those who are worried by the rise of UKIP love to pay the racist card.
I don't know much about politics. I don't vote.
I know a few of Ukips policies, and I like what I see but I don't know enough about them, so it would be ignorant of me to vote for them.
That's it.
Camerons conservatives are on fire...(Boris will fix it later)
The Labour leadership are failing to connect with those very voters whom they were set up to represent. FFS a Dulwich college city guy is more in touch than the whole labour movement.
I have spent my adult life opposing nationalism and xenophobia.
I am passionately pro - European - not because the EU is faultless, it plainly is far from that, but because I believe that the EU is the best way the peoples of Europe can put behind them the ancient emnities that resulted in two catastrophic world wars during the 20th Century.
Of course NATO was formed to put a structure to the armed forces but it is economic strength and a spreading of economic benefit which will stop people from huddling around their nationalist narrow horizons.
I am angry that the party I have supported all my life has got themselves into a disastrous state. They did the right thing going into coalition - it showed huge courage given they were bound to take a kicking. Unfortunately even I didn't expect them to have made such a horlicks of things. The student loans fiasco was so poorly handled and Clegg looked far too much like his head was up Cameron's jacksie for far too long. They should have dumped him at least a year ago in my view.
It troubles me even more than when nationalism is on the rise in our country, when civil liberties are being threatened every day, when a reemergence of the nasty party has jettisoned the "green crap", and wants to withdraw from the Human Rights legislation written by British Lawyers and given life by one W S Churchill, when Labour is weak and it's policies are ill - defined, and when the positive case for the EU is never more than a whisper; the country needs a strong progressive party as a counter - weight to all of this yet it is unable to get its message across due to the toxicity of its leader.
The Lib Dems will take a huge kicking at the next General Election - they will lose many seats. UKIP may well gain a larger share of the vote, and some MPs but I don't see them getting anything more than a dozen or so.
This may lead to a realignment of politics in this country with UKIP maybe even replacing the Tories as the right of centre party over the next few years. What I do know is there will always be progressive centre left leaning Liberal (Lib Dem) Party that is not classed based, it may never break the mold, I am pretty certain it won't win a majority in my lifetime but there are millions of people like me who will never turn to parties who pit nation against nation, that seek to create division, by class or otherwise and find scapegoats to blame for all the ills of citizens lives.
As regard the EU, We are at a crossroads. The EU is in crisis - the Euro-zone is a car crash.
Don't let it's problems though blind us from the fact that if it all falls apart - all of the countries, including us will be massively and negatively affected. We are are seeing an economic downturn in our economy as a direct result of recession in the Euro-zone already. Imagine the fall out if the market collapsed?
It's all very well Farage and UKIP wanting us out but they ignore the huge economic disaster that will bring. He can claim that in the long run we will trade successfully from outside - it ain't going to happen in any time scale that won't result in economic disaster followed by huge levels of unemployment . Those who support smiley Nige now will be burning him in effergy should he get his way as the UK economy falls off the cliff.
What really f*cks me off is that there is no proper debate. Clegg screwed it up by playing the man, not the ball whilst the biggest beasts in UK politics looked the other way, or buried their heads in the sand.
Call me Dave is offering a referendum but in truth he doesn't want one and will find any excuse to want to stay in. Silibland has a policy on Europe which is completely incoherent. Why he doesn't offer a referendum god only knows?
I believe the time is overdue for a referendum and we can't duck it any longer. I will be out there fighting for our country to remain part of a market and a group of countries which does allow free movement of labour - which will, despite its many faults, remain a huge trading area for the benefit of jobs and prosperity - especially once the Euro-zone has resolved it's structural weaknesses.
I actually think UKIP bring forward policies which seek to address the root cause of a lot of problems we currently face in the UK, instead of offering hazy, unclear liberal wishy-washy policies which everyone knows won't work.