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Catalan Independence vote

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  • Until relatively recently the Spanish suffered terrorism from Basque separatists which was, in many ways, even nastier then we have become used to in the rest of Europe. I'm sure this must have an influence on the way the Spanish police and the general population react to similar movements.

    I think the Spanish Civil War and the attitude of Franco are still too recent to be forgotten. Franco only died in 1975 and there were huge divisions within the country which have not yet been put to rest.
  • Just went home for lunch to find the Catalan PM, Puigdemont has demanded the withdrawal of all Spanish pólice (Guardia Civil and Policia nacional). This guy knows exactly which buttons to press.

    As do some of the teachers at my childrens' school. They both came out at lunchtime and expained they had been talking about what happened yesterday in class. Both had been told it is 'wrong to hit people' so the pólice were very bad, which seemed fair enough. The younger one was also told that Spain was very bad because Catalunya just wants to be a coutry and it was wrong to stop them. I guess I feek that crosses all sorts of lines, and rather backs up claims 'over the border' in Spain that kids here are being brainwashed.
    I also recieved an sms on my mobile telling me where to register in order to strike tomorrow to bring the country to a standstill. Can anyone get that 'it's happening' gif ready.
  • Just went home for lunch to find the Catalan PM, Puigdemont has demanded the withdrawal of all Spanish pólice (Guardia Civil and Policia nacional). This guy knows exactly which buttons to press.

    As do some of the teachers at my childrens' school. They both came out at lunchtime and expained they had been talking about what happened yesterday in class. Both had been told it is 'wrong to hit people' so the pólice were very bad, which seemed fair enough. The younger one was also told that Spain was very bad because Catalunya just wants to be a coutry and it was wrong to stop them. I guess I feek that crosses all sorts of lines, and rather backs up claims 'over the border' in Spain that kids here are being brainwashed.
    I also recieved an sms on my mobile telling me where to register in order to strike tomorrow to bring the country to a standstill. Can anyone get that 'it's happening' gif ready.

    Presumably once Catalunya declares independence everyone will live happily ever after and there will be a seamless transition. What could possibly go wrong?

    Has ETA commented on this?
  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

    It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

    It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
    What a ridiculous comment.. she'll be First Lady, Kanye 2020
  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

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  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

    It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
    What a ridiculous comment.. she'll be First Lady, Kanye 2020
    Apologies I feel so foolish!
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  • You can mock all you want. I've been pretty comfortable with the fact that there's precisely fuck all I can do about things in the world for donkeys' years. I don't need to call the Samaritans to tell me not to worry that everything's fucked - because I'm NOT worried. If anything, I'm firmly in the Bill Hicks camp. Humanity is a virus in sneakers.
  • You can mock all you want. I've been pretty comfortable with the fact that there's precisely fuck all I can do about things in the world for donkeys' years. I don't need to call the Samaritans to tell me not to worry that everything's fucked - because I'm NOT worried. If anything, I'm firmly in the Bill Hicks camp. Humanity is a virus in sneakers.

    Don't think anyone is mocking to be fair - you just have to watch it all unfold and hope for the best. All part of the human condition...
  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

    couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
    Stephen Hawking and the BBC have the right idea .. we're all gonna move to Mars .. all 7+ Billion of us .. Mars will be one crowded planet with all that lot in one tent
  • This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).

    Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.

    I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.

    couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
    Bloody hell you've been saying that since you were eight? ;)
  • Just got home from work and catching up with this. I would say that, despite the awful scenes yesterday, I still think this could backfire on the separatists. The very low turnout showed how the majority of people feel about the unconstitutional vote and most ordinary Catalans just want to get on with their lives and not be dictated to or manipulated by the Catalan politicians any more than they do by the national government.

    I do think the socialist party are going to step up now and insist on dialogue, and could be the major beneficiary of this after the PP's predictably poor response. A coalition with Podemos with more autonomy to the regions is probably a good bet for the country soon, and probably what the Catalan separatists would realistically accept: they surely know that an actual independent state is not on the cards or remotely viable. As always, it's political brinkmanship in order to get a deal and Puigdemont as a former journalist has played this very cleverly to get the headlines he wanted.
  • I don't think most international observers agree with the assumptions and conclusions of the separatists.

    But the actions of the Spanish authorities have been disgraceful, I'm sure Putin would approve of the tactics...
  • As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.
  • As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.

    Police breaking into polling stations, dragging out ballot boxes and innocent, and often elderly voters...that sounds pretty grim to me, and not fitting of a Western democracy
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  • As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.

    Over the top ? What other western democracy has behaved similarly in recent history ?
  • se9addick said:

    As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.

    Over the top ? What other western democracy has behaved similarly in recent history ?
    The SNP in Scotland would have if they thought they coulda got away with it

    ; )
  • I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.

    It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
  • I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.

    It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.

    The governments orders/ the orders carried out by the civil guard were that of a fascist state, there's no sugar coating it, that was real life fascism.
  • The Spanish government should have let the (illegal non-binding) vote go ahead, and when the Cats announced the result (the majority of us want independence from Spain) - the Government could have just replied " yes we know".

    Drama over.
  • I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.

    It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.

    Spain had a civil war in the 1930s and only became a democracy in 1975 - I think it's too easy to ignore recent history. If you look at how the country was divided during the Civil War then I would say events of the last few days can't be easily ignored.

    I think the actions of central government in Spain have been heavy handed and foolish - it almost appears they're trying to promote the desire for independence in the Catalan region.

    It's far easier to divide countries than it is to unite them.
  • An impressively thorough and balanced article, critical of both sides, from a Spanish journalist for anyone wanting to know more about this beyond what happened yesterday:

    The crisis in Catalonia is being fed by pernicious myths on both sides

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/02/catalonia-crisis-spain-referendum-independence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
  • Anything from the leaders of the eu condemning Spainish government ?
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