Until relatively recently the Spanish suffered terrorism from Basque separatists which was, in many ways, even nastier then we have become used to in the rest of Europe. I'm sure this must have an influence on the way the Spanish police and the general population react to similar movements.
I think the Spanish Civil War and the attitude of Franco are still too recent to be forgotten. Franco only died in 1975 and there were huge divisions within the country which have not yet been put to rest.
Worrying isn't it? A European democracy deploying a paramilitary force to suppress protest and dissent through violence against its own citizens. Thing is, it's operating exactly as intended.
The Gardia Civil is part of the Euro Gendarme Force, a multinational paramilitary police force which is able to enter any EU member state, including the UK, at the request of the host government. Although that government has no powers to actually get them to leave once deployed. Its another reason I think we are better off outside the EU. The equipment of a police state is in place, we saw it being used today.
In case anyone reads this and thinks this is true, it isn't. The EGF was formed outside the EU and has only a handful of members. They certainly do not have the power to enter any EU state and stay indefinitely.
But they do have the power to enter any EU state, right? Despite only being formed by 6 member states.
In fact, they can be deployed worldwide. As was seen in 2010 when they were deployed to Haiti (albeit for post relief security efforts).
Could you please point me to the relevant UK legislation that would allow a foreign paramilitary force to assume law and order duties with indefinite stay?
I didn't ask about indefinite stay. I deliberately worded my question so as to remove that aspect.
So, can the EGF be deployed in any EU member state? I believe they can. Furthermore, they can be deployed worldwide, as was see in 2010 in Haiti and, more recently, in Afghanistan.
Or how your statement is reconciled against the German constitution that forbids the use of paramilitaries as police forces?
See above
As I said, unless there is evidence to the contrary I have named two EU states that would be forbidden by their own laws to permit a foreign paramilitary to operate within their borders.
You say you believe they can. I'd suggest you look up some facts before holding a belief that appears to be wrong.
In other words, you're unable to give an answer either way. That's fine. There's no issue with that. We can't all be right all of the time.
I'd suggest you look in to The Clingendael Report, which is a bit of an eye opener.
Re the 'look up some facts', how about you state some facts that show that this paramilitary group can't be deployed in an member state seeing as they are not an EU tool:
"The Solidarity Clause of the Lisbon Treaty makes it clear that the force will not only be able to control a population as a police, military and intelligence unit, but it will also be able to be deployed within the EU or outside. Following the Lisbon Treaty, its operations will be subject to very little democratic control by parliaments, and the EU parliament has no say at all since, as Alfredo Vacca the EUROGENDFOR’s Legal Advisor says, it is not an EU asset."
Inspecting this more closely:
1) The Solidarity Clause allows the EU to call upon its members to contribute military and rescue resources to a joint task force which the Union coordinates in the event of an attack or disaster befalling a member state.
2) Such a task force must be invited by a member state.
3) The EGF is not named in the Clause and as the treaty founding it did not come from the EU the EU has no authority to command it, just like it cannot command any NATO forces.
4) The clause includes no mechanism for a member state to request the force to leave its borders simply because each nation already has its own power to eject any foreigners from its soil.
5) The force must be invited through the legal political authority of the member state in question. This means that until the law changes in each respective nation Germany or the UK cannot receive military forces to assume civil duties as neither government currently has the legal authority to do so.
6) The EGF is no different to NATO in that a group of countries have signed a treaty allowing them to better coordinate their own paramilitaries in joint operations. There is no EU aspect to them.
7) Any EGF involvement in the invocation of this solidarity clause would be subject to scrutiny from the EU who would be coordinating any joint action invoked under this clause (which would need to be legally enacted by the member state requesting assistance).
Just went home for lunch to find the Catalan PM, Puigdemont has demanded the withdrawal of all Spanish pólice (Guardia Civil and Policia nacional). This guy knows exactly which buttons to press.
As do some of the teachers at my childrens' school. They both came out at lunchtime and expained they had been talking about what happened yesterday in class. Both had been told it is 'wrong to hit people' so the pólice were very bad, which seemed fair enough. The younger one was also told that Spain was very bad because Catalunya just wants to be a coutry and it was wrong to stop them. I guess I feek that crosses all sorts of lines, and rather backs up claims 'over the border' in Spain that kids here are being brainwashed. I also recieved an sms on my mobile telling me where to register in order to strike tomorrow to bring the country to a standstill. Can anyone get that 'it's happening' gif ready.
Just went home for lunch to find the Catalan PM, Puigdemont has demanded the withdrawal of all Spanish pólice (Guardia Civil and Policia nacional). This guy knows exactly which buttons to press.
As do some of the teachers at my childrens' school. They both came out at lunchtime and expained they had been talking about what happened yesterday in class. Both had been told it is 'wrong to hit people' so the pólice were very bad, which seemed fair enough. The younger one was also told that Spain was very bad because Catalunya just wants to be a coutry and it was wrong to stop them. I guess I feek that crosses all sorts of lines, and rather backs up claims 'over the border' in Spain that kids here are being brainwashed. I also recieved an sms on my mobile telling me where to register in order to strike tomorrow to bring the country to a standstill. Can anyone get that 'it's happening' gif ready.
Presumably once Catalunya declares independence everyone will live happily ever after and there will be a seamless transition. What could possibly go wrong?
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
What a ridiculous comment.. she'll be First Lady, Kanye 2020
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
It's just a blip. Once Kim Kardashian becomes President all will be okay....
What a ridiculous comment.. she'll be First Lady, Kanye 2020
You can mock all you want. I've been pretty comfortable with the fact that there's precisely fuck all I can do about things in the world for donkeys' years. I don't need to call the Samaritans to tell me not to worry that everything's fucked - because I'm NOT worried. If anything, I'm firmly in the Bill Hicks camp. Humanity is a virus in sneakers.
You can mock all you want. I've been pretty comfortable with the fact that there's precisely fuck all I can do about things in the world for donkeys' years. I don't need to call the Samaritans to tell me not to worry that everything's fucked - because I'm NOT worried. If anything, I'm firmly in the Bill Hicks camp. Humanity is a virus in sneakers.
Don't think anyone is mocking to be fair - you just have to watch it all unfold and hope for the best. All part of the human condition...
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
Stephen Hawking and the BBC have the right idea .. we're all gonna move to Mars .. all 7+ Billion of us .. Mars will be one crowded planet with all that lot in one tent
This will not end well. At all. It plays into the hands of all the petty nationalists across Europe and could very well be indicative of the seemingly inexorable drive towards a sustained period of conflict and instability where a global conflict is the result. Time to start stockpiling canned goods folks (although if the straw-headed imbecile and MC Hammer-trousered loon currently engaged in a slanging match from opposite ends of the globe get silly it won't matter a jot, since we'll all end up being blown into our own shadows).
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
couldn't agree more mate, I've been saying it for the last 25 years!
Bloody hell you've been saying that since you were eight?
Just got home from work and catching up with this. I would say that, despite the awful scenes yesterday, I still think this could backfire on the separatists. The very low turnout showed how the majority of people feel about the unconstitutional vote and most ordinary Catalans just want to get on with their lives and not be dictated to or manipulated by the Catalan politicians any more than they do by the national government.
I do think the socialist party are going to step up now and insist on dialogue, and could be the major beneficiary of this after the PP's predictably poor response. A coalition with Podemos with more autonomy to the regions is probably a good bet for the country soon, and probably what the Catalan separatists would realistically accept: they surely know that an actual independent state is not on the cards or remotely viable. As always, it's political brinkmanship in order to get a deal and Puigdemont as a former journalist has played this very cleverly to get the headlines he wanted.
As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.
As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.
Police breaking into polling stations, dragging out ballot boxes and innocent, and often elderly voters...that sounds pretty grim to me, and not fitting of a Western democracy
As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.
Over the top ? What other western democracy has behaved similarly in recent history ?
As awful as it looks, some of the reactions have been completely over the top. There is lots to be done and lots of questions to be asked but comparing Spain to Russia or Yugoslavia is hyperbole which would even make the separatists blush.
Over the top ? What other western democracy has behaved similarly in recent history ?
The SNP in Scotland would have if they thought they coulda got away with it
I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.
It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.
It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
The governments orders/ the orders carried out by the civil guard were that of a fascist state, there's no sugar coating it, that was real life fascism.
The Spanish government should have let the (illegal non-binding) vote go ahead, and when the Cats announced the result (the majority of us want independence from Spain) - the Government could have just replied " yes we know".
I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.
It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
Spain had a civil war in the 1930s and only became a democracy in 1975 - I think it's too easy to ignore recent history. If you look at how the country was divided during the Civil War then I would say events of the last few days can't be easily ignored.
I think the actions of central government in Spain have been heavy handed and foolish - it almost appears they're trying to promote the desire for independence in the Catalan region.
It's far easier to divide countries than it is to unite them.
An impressively thorough and balanced article, critical of both sides, from a Spanish journalist for anyone wanting to know more about this beyond what happened yesterday:
The crisis in Catalonia is being fed by pernicious myths on both sides
Interesting doublethink at play if attempting to shoehorn the EU into this. Surely the EU aren't supposed to interfere and countries should be in charge of their own sovereignty?
Comments
1) The Solidarity Clause allows the EU to call upon its members to contribute military and rescue resources to a joint task force which the Union coordinates in the event of an attack or disaster befalling a member state.
2) Such a task force must be invited by a member state.
3) The EGF is not named in the Clause and as the treaty founding it did not come from the EU the EU has no authority to command it, just like it cannot command any NATO forces.
4) The clause includes no mechanism for a member state to request the force to leave its borders simply because each nation already has its own power to eject any foreigners from its soil.
5) The force must be invited through the legal political authority of the member state in question. This means that until the law changes in each respective nation Germany or the UK cannot receive military forces to assume civil duties as neither government currently has the legal authority to do so.
6) The EGF is no different to NATO in that a group of countries have signed a treaty allowing them to better coordinate their own paramilitaries in joint operations. There is no EU aspect to them.
7) Any EGF involvement in the invocation of this solidarity clause would be subject to scrutiny from the EU who would be coordinating any joint action invoked under this clause (which would need to be legally enacted by the member state requesting assistance).
As do some of the teachers at my childrens' school. They both came out at lunchtime and expained they had been talking about what happened yesterday in class. Both had been told it is 'wrong to hit people' so the pólice were very bad, which seemed fair enough. The younger one was also told that Spain was very bad because Catalunya just wants to be a coutry and it was wrong to stop them. I guess I feek that crosses all sorts of lines, and rather backs up claims 'over the border' in Spain that kids here are being brainwashed.
I also recieved an sms on my mobile telling me where to register in order to strike tomorrow to bring the country to a standstill. Can anyone get that 'it's happening' gif ready.
Has ETA commented on this?
Like I've said previously - every 'great' civilisation has reached a peak, then fallen into ruin. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Inca etc. They reach the point where there are 'no more worlds left to conquer', then fall into decadence. Who can honestly say, having looked at the state of the world (writ large for all to see on The Internet) that we haven't reached that point of decadence? Where literally hundreds of millions of people are more interested in what someone's arse looks like in a dress than the fact their very futures are being stolen away from them.
I don't expect the world to continue in it's current form for more than the next ten years.
I do think the socialist party are going to step up now and insist on dialogue, and could be the major beneficiary of this after the PP's predictably poor response. A coalition with Podemos with more autonomy to the regions is probably a good bet for the country soon, and probably what the Catalan separatists would realistically accept: they surely know that an actual independent state is not on the cards or remotely viable. As always, it's political brinkmanship in order to get a deal and Puigdemont as a former journalist has played this very cleverly to get the headlines he wanted.
But the actions of the Spanish authorities have been disgraceful, I'm sure Putin would approve of the tactics...
; )
It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
Drama over.
I think the actions of central government in Spain have been heavy handed and foolish - it almost appears they're trying to promote the desire for independence in the Catalan region.
It's far easier to divide countries than it is to unite them.
The crisis in Catalonia is being fed by pernicious myths on both sides
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/02/catalonia-crisis-spain-referendum-independence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard