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Post-match Thread: Swindon v Charlton | Sat 19 Dec 2020
Comments
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Can’t imagine Bowyer taking advice from anyone. That’s a big part of the problem. Stubbornness, lack of intelligence and a total lack of tactical nous.Garrymanilow said:We do have a serious problem with conceding late goals. I just hope that Bowyer realises why that is, as it's happened across two very different teams now so it's not just the personnel. Hopefully Bowyer will have a chat with Curbs, he understood the balance between closing a game down and handing over the impetus to the opposition3 -
Probably one of the few times other than when we win people are echoing the same comments. Negativity & naivety from Bowyer unfortunately. I am starting to question him when I haven't before. I don't want him gone cause I don't want us to be that club/fanbase, but every player he has sold or lost has played fine without Bowyer, in a lot of cases even better. I feel like we had a lot of ready made players but we just didn't realise it at the time. Once again the main concern is that on a human level he is starting to annoy me, severely an all.
I am fond of Lee cause we have had some results under him and he was one of the few bright lights in the Roland era, but every post match interview his comments are annoying me. I can accept something along the lines of ''I set us up wrong, I am still learning. Before Thomas I was always hand tied and have adopted a siege like mentality because of it, my subs need to be more positive because we are conceding late on a lot, the stats don't lie''. Instead we get x player did this wrong, it's X players fault, bad refs etc. Takes no accountibility for what is his fault.
I'll try and take the positives, if we win our game in hand we are back in the top6 but I'll be honest I feel negative, watched us play scared against MK Dons, Shrewsbury, Burton and now Swindon. 3 of which are in the relegation zone, the other bottom half. I see this ending in tears I can't lie7 -
Quite right. The start of last season we were going to WBA trying to win.killerandflash said:I've said it before, but the events of last winter knocked the mojo out of Bowyer. In the final 9 games last season you could see the difference between us and the likes of Luton and Barnsley, where we were defaulting to an ultra cautious approach, and that has continued. So many times we've tried to cling on to a one goal lead, going deeper and deeper, and failed. It's happened too often for it to be bad luck that we concede late goals.
Now we go to Swindon & Shrewsbury trying not to lose.
I have a lot of sympathy for Bowyer but if we get in a forward and a couple of attacking midfielders in January and he persists with the negative tactics, then I'll have to reconsider.10 -
I agree with the last statement, I don't think he's going to last the season. I actually think he'd have done well if he got the West Brom job this week, firing them up and getting them playing. But I'm not convinced he has the ability to get a team dominating the game when they are good enough to.Braziliance said:Probably one of the few times other than when we win people are echoing the same comments. Negativity & naivety from Bowyer unfortunately. I am starting to question him when I haven't before. I don't want him gone cause I don't want us to be that club/fanbase, but every player he has sold or lost has played fine without Bowyer, in a lot of cases even better. I feel like we had a lot of ready made players but we just didn't realise it at the time. Once again the main concern is that on a human level he is starting to annoy me, severely an all.
I am fond of Lee cause we have had some results under him and he was one of the few bright lights in the Roland era, but every post match interview his comments are annoying me. I can accept something along the lines of ''I set us up wrong, I am still learning. Before Thomas I was always hand tied and have adopted a siege like mentality because of it, my subs need to be more positive because we are conceding late on a lot, the stats don't lie''. Instead we get x player did this wrong, it's X players fault, bad refs etc. Takes no accountibility for what is his fault.
I'll try and take the positives, if we win our game in hand we are back in the top6 but I'll be honest I feel negative, watched us play scared against MK Dons, Shrewsbury, Burton and now Swindon. 3 of which are in the relegation zone, the other bottom half. I see this ending in tears I can't lie1 -
For those doubting whether this was in Bowyer's DNA all along, remember the playoff semi-final when we went two up in the tie and then sat back? Yeah, by the end of that we were going out but for a goalkeeping error6
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Very much starting to believe Bowyer is a backs against the wall manager and that's as far as it goes. It was probably the quality of Cullen, Aribo, Gallagher, Bielik etc that made it look like we could play ball that's my concern. They're all doing well away from us, not sure on Cullencafcfan1990 said:
I agree with the last statement, I don't think he's going to last the season. I actually think he'd have done well if he got the West Brom job this week, firing them up and getting them playing. But I'm not convinced he has the ability to get a team dominating the game when they are good enough to.Braziliance said:Probably one of the few times other than when we win people are echoing the same comments. Negativity & naivety from Bowyer unfortunately. I am starting to question him when I haven't before. I don't want him gone cause I don't want us to be that club/fanbase, but every player he has sold or lost has played fine without Bowyer, in a lot of cases even better. I feel like we had a lot of ready made players but we just didn't realise it at the time. Once again the main concern is that on a human level he is starting to annoy me, severely an all.
I am fond of Lee cause we have had some results under him and he was one of the few bright lights in the Roland era, but every post match interview his comments are annoying me. I can accept something along the lines of ''I set us up wrong, I am still learning. Before Thomas I was always hand tied and have adopted a siege like mentality because of it, my subs need to be more positive because we are conceding late on a lot, the stats don't lie''. Instead we get x player did this wrong, it's X players fault, bad refs etc. Takes no accountibility for what is his fault.
I'll try and take the positives, if we win our game in hand we are back in the top6 but I'll be honest I feel negative, watched us play scared against MK Dons, Shrewsbury, Burton and now Swindon. 3 of which are in the relegation zone, the other bottom half. I see this ending in tears I can't lie0 -
Fair point. At the time I gave massive credit to Doncaster, in hindsight we might have allowed them back in the tie.Leuth said:For those doubting whether this was in Bowyer's DNA all along, remember the playoff semi-final when we went two up in the tie and then sat back? Yeah, by the end of that we were going out but for a goalkeeping error0 -
We've got players of real quality now. Maybe not quite as good as those, but players like Maddison, Gilbey and JFC have the ability to control the game against the likes of Swindon (genuinely no disrespect intended).Braziliance said:
Very much starting to believe Bowyer is a backs against the wall manager and that's as far as it goes. It was probably the quality of Cullen, Aribo, Gallagher, Bielik etc that made it look like we could play ball that's my concern. They're all doing well away from us, not sure on Cullencafcfan1990 said:
I agree with the last statement, I don't think he's going to last the season. I actually think he'd have done well if he got the West Brom job this week, firing them up and getting them playing. But I'm not convinced he has the ability to get a team dominating the game when they are good enough to.Braziliance said:Probably one of the few times other than when we win people are echoing the same comments. Negativity & naivety from Bowyer unfortunately. I am starting to question him when I haven't before. I don't want him gone cause I don't want us to be that club/fanbase, but every player he has sold or lost has played fine without Bowyer, in a lot of cases even better. I feel like we had a lot of ready made players but we just didn't realise it at the time. Once again the main concern is that on a human level he is starting to annoy me, severely an all.
I am fond of Lee cause we have had some results under him and he was one of the few bright lights in the Roland era, but every post match interview his comments are annoying me. I can accept something along the lines of ''I set us up wrong, I am still learning. Before Thomas I was always hand tied and have adopted a siege like mentality because of it, my subs need to be more positive because we are conceding late on a lot, the stats don't lie''. Instead we get x player did this wrong, it's X players fault, bad refs etc. Takes no accountibility for what is his fault.
I'll try and take the positives, if we win our game in hand we are back in the top6 but I'll be honest I feel negative, watched us play scared against MK Dons, Shrewsbury, Burton and now Swindon. 3 of which are in the relegation zone, the other bottom half. I see this ending in tears I can't lie1 -
Remember the games that got us to to the playoffs.Leuth said:For those doubting whether this was in Bowyer's DNA all along, remember the playoff semi-final when we went two up in the tie and then sat back? Yeah, by the end of that we were going out but for a goalkeeping error5 -
Yeah, we were dispatching trash teams with confidence, like we should have been doing these last few games.
Thinking as well about the Bogle substitution. Yes, Chuks is a better player. But at half time? And Bogle the man to make way, rather than Washington (or, if Bowyer had any imagination, Gilbey, moving Maddison back and playing Chuks as a 10)? A natural change, but taking off your scorer at half time absolutely smacked of Bowyer doing his 'you don't miss chances like that for my team' hardman act on Bogle. Yes, he missed a glaring chance, but he scored! Just seems like terrible man-management again. Just really vindictive.2 - Sponsored links:
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So the teams we dispatch are trash when LB gets it right but when he gets it wrong it's in his DNA that he's negative?
Brilliant5 -
Doncaster were not trash. Our run at the end of the playoff-winning season was generally against either poor teams with little to play for or relegation fodder. But something seems to have changed in Bowyer, and that playoff semi gave a clue as to how he'd end up choosing to handle pressure.
Wimbledon last week were dispatched purely because we were losing at half-time and brought on two attacking players, changing our shape to something more aggressive. And then they handed us the fourth goal to kill the game before we could get too many defenders on.
Our winning run was built on Inniss and Famewo, yes, but also a lot of luck. (We also scored a lot of second-half goals after extremely unimpressive first-halves drew us out of our shell a little.) Some people said xG would even itself out eventually. It is doing so.
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We allowed them to score late on in both legs.Leuth said:For those doubting whether this was in Bowyer's DNA all along, remember the playoff semi-final when we went two up in the tie and then sat back? Yeah, by the end of that we were going out but for a goalkeeping error
First leg (slightly) ruined the performance as obviously 1-2 is miles better for them than 0-2.
And then in the second leg, we hung on for the 1-1 that'd take us through and allowed them to score and take it to extra time.0 -
It’s interesting to me that last week Lee Bowyer’s approach in the 2nd half is exactly what we would have expected from him. Positive and playing on the front foot. Gunter, Williams, Maddison easily had their best games for us. We were sparkling. I wonder if that had anything to do with Thomas Sandgaard being in attendance.
This week it was back to the same old negative dross that has started to be dished up. I wonder if there’s a link.Either way I think Lee has to be careful because our new owner will not mess around. He understands football and how he wants it played.1 -
At least with all these games being called off we will have the excuse later on in the season that the oppo had more days rest than us in between games because it’s clearly helping us now 🙄3
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Unlike palace and millwall , this is the first time Charlton have been in the 4th tier8
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Some people on here are becoming traditional London football fans : fickle as anything when we don’t win and overly excitable when we win. Yes, Bow made some errors yesterday, although watching Everton against Arsenal yesterday, a well respected coach in Ancelotti made very similar substitutions. We have cobbled together a group of either highly experienced , but considerably past their peak players, some that are journeymen with little track record, some with poor injury records that can’t play more than an hour a week.. is it any wonder that we aren’t winning consistently ? This team is NOWHERE near as good as the one that went up two years ago, and even that one went through average spells and relied on a very difficult playoff campaign. I don’t say follow blindly without expressing an opinion, but let’s regain a little bit of perspective.
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My wife asked me why we were putting on more and more defenders when Swindon were rubbish. She happily admits to knowing nothing about football. She completely stumped me with that question though!6
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"...a well respected coach in Ancelotti made very similar substitutions." Indeed - in the 83rd, 92nd and 93rd minute. Not with 25 minutes to go, in a game that Everton were in total control of and only looked like scoring more. Unbelievably negative. As a player, if Bow was the kind of manager you can say it to (I have no idea whether he is or not), I would be asking him "Don't you think we are capable of holding a lead against a team like Swindon, or increasing it, with this starting eleven?".wmcf123 said:Some people on here are becoming traditional London football fans : fickle as anything when we don’t win and overly excitable when we win. Yes, Bow made some errors yesterday, although watching Everton against Arsenal yesterday, a well respected coach in Ancelotti made very similar substitutions. We have cobbled together a group of either highly experienced , but considerably past their peak players, some that are journeymen with little track record, some with poor injury records that can’t play more than an hour a week.. is it any wonder that we aren’t winning consistently ? This team is NOWHERE near as good as the one that went up two years ago, and even that one went through average spells and relied on a very difficult playoff campaign. I don’t say follow blindly without expressing an opinion, but let’s regain a little bit of perspective.
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I haven’t read all the thread; it’s too depressing, but I agree that we went too defensive.
I think one of LB’s problems is that he doesn’t really believe in our strikers. If we still had Lyle (or KG) we would be pissing this league.
There’s a lot riding on Ronnie Schwartz, including, possibly, LB’s job.1 - Sponsored links:
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when curbs was at the helm, he had merv or les reed as his assistant and keith peacock as the older head up - bowyer just has jackson - it would be totally sensible for curbs to be bowyer's peacock - he talks so much sense and basically just says what we can all see -the club has an owner who is improving the support around the first team - this would be a crucial and much needed appointment, even if LB would have to swollow a bit of pride possibly - he needs to though coz he is failing badly atmFanny Fanackapan said:
Maybe someone should introduce Curbs to Thomas .....not to replace Bow but as Director of Football maybe ?dajavouslagan said:When Curbs comes out & says the substitutions cost us then it just confirms what we’ve all been saying for ages now! Lee just doesn’t seem to be able to learn & improve! We go again....ffs!
I'm sure plenty of us have mentioned this before now but something has to change, I believe.
This is, in effect, "new territory" for the gaffer and some assistance from one who's been there & has the T shirt must surely be a positive step.
Or is this role in the remit of Ged Roddy ?3 -
What I fail to understand is people's attitude that they think we should be winning every game and think its unacceptable to drop any points this season
Yes its frustrating we keep conceding late on but a draw is a draw, regardless of the minute that we concede, its going to happen from time to time, else if we win every game then we're finishing on 118-points!!
If ANYONE thinks any team will get close to that number then they need to rejoin the real world
To get to 88-pts alone and equal two years ago (we're currently ahead of that target) we can afford to lose another six games, and draw another six games
Those 12-games where we drop points wont solely happen against teams we're fighting for promotion with, and if we do we're creating even bigger problems for ourselves as the gap will only widen.
Putting it into simple terms, we probably wont do the double over HALF the teams in this Division
So instead of moaning about the fact that we're dropping points against Burton | Gillingham | Shrewsbury | MK Dons | Swindon, people need to look at the table and remember that is the standard of the League that we're in... Once again drop the goddamn arrogance, as trust me, regardless of the Manager, we WILL drop points between now and the end of the season and there is a big chance it'll be against an unfashionable team that the majority will look down their noses at on here!!
If people cant accept that dropped points will happen (in any number of ways (silly mistakes, penalties, switching off, in the last minute), then I seriously question if your following the right sport
Of course its fine to question Bowyer's tactics, but at the moment this forum is as bad as my wife when she on her monthly, win and everything is great, lose and its the end of the bloody world!! - All sense of reason / perspective gets lost8 -
I wouldn’t have made those substitutions either - I loathe bringing on extra defenders and I don’t class Purrington as one of those anyway. I just think the hysteria is extreme.Algarveaddick said:
"...a well respected coach in Ancelotti made very similar substitutions." Indeed - in the 83rd, 92nd and 93rd minute. Not with 25 minutes to go, in a game that Everton were in total control of and only looked like scoring more. Unbelievably negative. As a player, if Bow was the kind of manager you can say it to (I have no idea whether he is or not), I would be asking him "Don't you think we are capable of holding a lead against a team like Swindon, or increasing it, with this starting eleven?".wmcf123 said:Some people on here are becoming traditional London football fans : fickle as anything when we don’t win and overly excitable when we win. Yes, Bow made some errors yesterday, although watching Everton against Arsenal yesterday, a well respected coach in Ancelotti made very similar substitutions. We have cobbled together a group of either highly experienced , but considerably past their peak players, some that are journeymen with little track record, some with poor injury records that can’t play more than an hour a week.. is it any wonder that we aren’t winning consistently ? This team is NOWHERE near as good as the one that went up two years ago, and even that one went through average spells and relied on a very difficult playoff campaign. I don’t say follow blindly without expressing an opinion, but let’s regain a little bit of perspective.1 -
I'm sorry but for me this a really wierd post/rant.ForeverAddickted said:What I fail to understand is people's attitude that they think we should be winning every game and think its unacceptable to drop any points this season
Yes its frustrating we keep conceding late on but a draw is a draw, regardless of the minute that we concede, its going to happen from time to time, else if we win every game then we're finishing on 118-points!!
If ANYONE thinks any team will get close to that number then they need to rejoin the real world
To get to 88-pts alone and equal two years ago (we're currently ahead of that target) we can afford to lose another six games, and draw another six games
Those 12-games where we drop points wont solely happen against teams we're fighting for promotion with, and if we do we're creating even bigger problems for ourselves as the gap will only widen.
Putting it into simple terms, we probably wont do the double over HALF the teams in this Division
So instead of moaning about the fact that we're dropping points against Burton | Gillingham | Shrewsbury | MK Dons | Swindon, people need to look at the table and remember that is the standard of the League that we're in... Once again drop the goddamn arrogance, as trust me, regardless of the Manager, we WILL drop points between now and the end of the season and there is a big chance it'll be against an unfashionable team that the majority will look down their noses at on here!!
If people cant accept that dropped points will happen (in any number of ways (silly mistakes, penalties, switching off, in the last minute), then I seriously question if your following the right sport
Of course its fine to question Bowyer's tactics, but at the moment this forum is as bad as my wife when she on her monthly, win and everything is great, lose and its the end of the bloody world!! - All sense of reason / perspective gets lost
People are not upset by dropped points, but by the manner of the dropped points, and the fact that our manager is clearly not learning form what many of us believe are glaring tactical mistakes.
Not one person on this forum expects us to win every match. But they also don't expect us to go defensive, with 25 minutes left, in a game where we are only one goal up, but clearly in control.
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I don't think we are saying we shouldn't drop any points. We are saying that Bowyer is making the choice to play too defensively when we are in a potentially winning position and we are consistently dropping points as a result, and that this has been going on for a while. As a result some of us are questioning whether he is able to change.ForeverAddickted said:What I fail to understand is people's attitude that they think we should be winning every game and think its unacceptable to drop any points this season
Yes its frustrating we keep conceding late on but a draw is a draw, regardless of the minute that we concede, its going to happen from time to time, else if we win every game then we're finishing on 118-points!!
If ANYONE thinks any team will get close to that number then they need to rejoin the real world
To get to 88-pts alone and equal two years ago (we're currently ahead of that target) we can afford to lose another six games, and draw another six games
Those 12-games where we drop points wont solely happen against teams we're fighting for promotion with, and if we do we're creating even bigger problems for ourselves as the gap will only widen.
Putting it into simple terms, we probably wont do the double over HALF the teams in this Division
So instead of moaning about the fact that we're dropping points against Burton | Gillingham | Shrewsbury | MK Dons | Swindon, people need to look at the table and remember that is the standard of the League that we're in... Once again drop the goddamn arrogance, as trust me, regardless of the Manager, we WILL drop points between now and the end of the season and there is a big chance it'll be against an unfashionable team that the majority will look down their noses at on here!!
If people cant accept that dropped points will happen (in any number of ways (silly mistakes, penalties, switching off, in the last minute), then I seriously question if your following the right sport
Of course its fine to question Bowyer's tactics, but at the moment this forum is as bad as my wife when she on her monthly, win and everything is great, lose and its the end of the bloody world!! - All sense of reason / perspective gets lost26 -
I'm a Bowyer fan but that does not mean I can't criticise him. Why, oh why, does he persist with these defensive substitutions? The team has shown time and again they cannot defend a one-goal lead with 20-odd minutes to go.
Because of circumstances, this was the first match I have missed streaming this season and I was relying on phone notifications for news of the game. When we went 2-1 up, I just knew we were going to try and sit back and then concede an equaliser. Reading all the posts, I was not the only one.
Why is Bowyer unable to see the same thing?8 -
But this is the overall problem of Football,.. We're going to drop points in a number of ways, thats just the Sport, its impossible to go from now until the end of the season, winning every gameWheresmeticket? said:
I don't think we are saying we shouldn't drop any points. We are saying that Bowyer is making the choice to play too defensively and we are consistently dropping points as a result, and that this has been going on for a while. As a result some of us are questioning whether he is able to change.ForeverAddickted said:What I fail to understand is people's attitude that they think we should be winning every game and think its unacceptable to drop any points this season
Yes its frustrating we keep conceding late on but a draw is a draw, regardless of the minute that we concede, its going to happen from time to time, else if we win every game then we're finishing on 118-points!!
If ANYONE thinks any team will get close to that number then they need to rejoin the real world
To get to 88-pts alone and equal two years ago (we're currently ahead of that target) we can afford to lose another six games, and draw another six games
Those 12-games where we drop points wont solely happen against teams we're fighting for promotion with, and if we do we're creating even bigger problems for ourselves as the gap will only widen.
Putting it into simple terms, we probably wont do the double over HALF the teams in this Division
So instead of moaning about the fact that we're dropping points against Burton | Gillingham | Shrewsbury | MK Dons | Swindon, people need to look at the table and remember that is the standard of the League that we're in... Once again drop the goddamn arrogance, as trust me, regardless of the Manager, we WILL drop points between now and the end of the season and there is a big chance it'll be against an unfashionable team that the majority will look down their noses at on here!!
If people cant accept that dropped points will happen (in any number of ways (silly mistakes, penalties, switching off, in the last minute), then I seriously question if your following the right sport
Of course its fine to question Bowyer's tactics, but at the moment this forum is as bad as my wife when she on her monthly, win and everything is great, lose and its the end of the bloody world!! - All sense of reason / perspective gets lost
The question rightly will be whether Bowyer can do enough to win the required amount of games to go up
Dropping points like today wont answer that question, nor will wins like last week over AFC Wimbledon as there are definitely going to more occasions where we drop points
Just think people need to realise that as like I said at the end, too many opinions change like the wind when we win and dont0 -
our squad is not as good as people think it is, with the forward line, bar chucks, being piss poor - however, there is nothing arrogant about expecting the manager to play your best players - bowyer is either not very good or is trying to engineer williams out of the club - as curbs said, williams at the start of last season,playing in his favoured position in central midfield, was brilliant, unplayable at times - i think he was almost in the 'under the bus' gang with taylor, solly and the other bloke -possibly morgan as well - but he needs to come out and state this publicly before he loses the fans confidence completely because tbh, his management at the moment, makes no sense - i said a few weeks back that there must be some agenda's going on that we don't know about because his actions are idiotic on the face of it11
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williams hardly played in the post lockdown relegation run - that was also baffling0
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So whats going to be an acceptable way to drop points?FishCostaFortune said:
I'm sorry but for me this a really wierd post/rant.ForeverAddickted said:What I fail to understand is people's attitude that they think we should be winning every game and think its unacceptable to drop any points this season
Yes its frustrating we keep conceding late on but a draw is a draw, regardless of the minute that we concede, its going to happen from time to time, else if we win every game then we're finishing on 118-points!!
If ANYONE thinks any team will get close to that number then they need to rejoin the real world
To get to 88-pts alone and equal two years ago (we're currently ahead of that target) we can afford to lose another six games, and draw another six games
Those 12-games where we drop points wont solely happen against teams we're fighting for promotion with, and if we do we're creating even bigger problems for ourselves as the gap will only widen.
Putting it into simple terms, we probably wont do the double over HALF the teams in this Division
So instead of moaning about the fact that we're dropping points against Burton | Gillingham | Shrewsbury | MK Dons | Swindon, people need to look at the table and remember that is the standard of the League that we're in... Once again drop the goddamn arrogance, as trust me, regardless of the Manager, we WILL drop points between now and the end of the season and there is a big chance it'll be against an unfashionable team that the majority will look down their noses at on here!!
If people cant accept that dropped points will happen (in any number of ways (silly mistakes, penalties, switching off, in the last minute), then I seriously question if your following the right sport
Of course its fine to question Bowyer's tactics, but at the moment this forum is as bad as my wife when she on her monthly, win and everything is great, lose and its the end of the bloody world!! - All sense of reason / perspective gets lost
People are not upset by dropped points, but by the manner of the dropped points, and the fact that our manager is clearly not learning form what many of us believe are glaring tactical mistakes.
Not one person on this forum expects us to win every match. But they also don't expect us to go defensive, with 25 minutes left, in a game where we are only one goal up, but clearly in control.
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