Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Has Bowyer lost it?
Comments
-
I'll simplify it for you @agimagim said:Dazzler21 said:There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We need a sustained period of playing a single formation and first 11. Only changing when better players become available (Inniss & Famewo) OR players are showing fatigue OR get injured. Rotating for the sake of it just messes with the playing chemistry or 'gelling'.
I think we can still make the playoffs, even under Bowyer, but he needs to have a settled side to do so.
Out of those signings who has performed ?There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
How do you expect players to gel and perform under the above conditions?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We've got the squad that should be making the playoffs, but they're not a team on the pitch they simply can't gel with all the unforced changes. Hence why I am asking for an almost unchanged side again even though it lost to Gillingham, until better players become available I want to see us keep with the same squad.
We have to replace JFC & Aneke with Smith & Washington/Schwartz, but as I say those are enforced.
4 -
I have never been the biggest fan of Pearce as a player. My biggest criticism of him is as a senior pro and club captain (for most of his career BTW) he should be able to marshal a back 4 and talk less experienced players through games. He quite clearly can't. I think I posted the same thing after the Scunthorpe fiasco over 2 years ago. But to say he isn't, categorically good enough, for a top 6 league one side is piffle.
Let's look at the last 5 seasons
19/20 39 games in the championship for a team that got relegated in injury time on the final day.
18/19 26 league 1 games for the team that won the play offs.
17/18 25 league games for a team that got in the play offs.
16/17 23 league 1 games for a basket case club
15/16 31 league 1 games for the champions.
If course he isn't a championship quality center half, but he is a top 6 league 1 team center half. The fault, in conceding as many goals, is much bigger than the center halves.1 -
It's very easy to blame the manager. Are we supposed to believe that Bowyer and the team have made these guys bad players over the course of the season? You're talking about 10/11 pros here. I agree he has tinkered loads, almost excessively BUT I do think part of it is the fact we can't find a consistent performing 11. Prime example is last week against Gillingham when he kept the same 11 as Rochdale and they produce that shit show. What's he meant to do this week, keep the same 11 after such a poor showing?Dazzler21 said:
I'll simplify it for you @agimagim said:Dazzler21 said:There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We need a sustained period of playing a single formation and first 11. Only changing when better players become available (Inniss & Famewo) OR players are showing fatigue OR get injured. Rotating for the sake of it just messes with the playing chemistry or 'gelling'.
Even in our 8 game unbeaten run, we tinkered each game, and unsurprisingly the defence had the fewest changes.
I think we can still make the playoffs, even under Bowyer, but he needs to have a settled side to do so.
Out of those signings who has performed ?There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
How do you expect players to gel and perform under the above conditions? We've got the squad that should be making the playoffs, but not they're not a team as they can't gel.
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
Rotation at time is needed as is changes after a poor performance. Its a catch 22 scenario in a sense of which Bowyer and the players are too blame for our poor season.
My argument is he has history of improving players and I'd like to see the likes of DJ, Schwartz and Innis a year from now1 -
You can list Pearce's past CV, that's fine, but we've all seen him on the pitch this season. And if you believe he is a top 6 centre half... Well, I can't help there.15
-
You won't find a consistent performing 11 without playing a consistent 11.agim said:
It's very easy to blame the manager. Are we supposed to believe that Bowyer and the team have made these guys bad players over the course of the season? You're talking about 10/11 pros here. I agree he has tinkered loads, almost excessively BUT I do think part of it is the fact we can't find a consistent performing 11. Prime example is last week against Gillingham when he kept the same 11 as Rochdale and they produce that shit show. What's he meant to do this week, keep the same 11 after such a poor showing?Dazzler21 said:
I'll simplify it for you @agimagim said:Dazzler21 said:There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We need a sustained period of playing a single formation and first 11. Only changing when better players become available (Inniss & Famewo) OR players are showing fatigue OR get injured. Rotating for the sake of it just messes with the playing chemistry or 'gelling'.
Even in our 8 game unbeaten run, we tinkered each game, and unsurprisingly the defence had the fewest changes.
I think we can still make the playoffs, even under Bowyer, but he needs to have a settled side to do so.
Out of those signings who has performed ?There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
How do you expect players to gel and perform under the above conditions? We've got the squad that should be making the playoffs, but not they're not a team as they can't gel.
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
Rotation at time is needed as is changes after a poor performance. Its a catch 22 scenario in a sense of which Bowyer and the players are too blame for our poor season.
My argument is he has history of improving players and I'd like to see the likes of DJ, Schwartz and Innis a year from now
I'm not against making changes to freshen up under performing areas or fatigued/injured players, but we won't ever gel unless we try to have a consistent 11.
I agree Bowyer and his team have improved some players, but we've also seen some quality players underperform regularly under that same set up then excel elsewhere.
I'm all for Bowyer kicking on and trying to go for promotion if he can just try to keep at least one thing consistent. Maybe he can stick to one formation so players at least know their role each game. (Once again this may change as a result of enforced changes)1 -
This. The past means very little when you are 33. His age is catching up on him and he's a 4th choice CB at best now. Deji is the same, I'm a fan, he has mistakes in him but as he's proven over the last 6 weeks or so on his day he can be very good. Neither are good enough to be regularly starting games for a team hoping for promotion though.Chunes said:You can list Pearce's past CV, that's fine, but we've all seen him on the pitch this season. And if you believe he is a top 6 centre half... Well, I can't help there.1 -
Football at the moment is strange/different for obvious reasons, I really want bowyer to take us on a good journey ,
with the whole ownership issues, potentially folding, embargo, some rushed signings, no real pre season, have all taken its toll.
this squad should be good enough for top 6, but underperforming players & poor tactics & decisions by bowyer will probably stop us.
the above has affected bowyer in my opinion & whatever division we are in come may, bowyer deserves a good break & a last chance to build a squad that he actually wants & prepare under a good steady ownership.0 -
I still think we can make top six. Obviously we have some major issues in defending (not just the defenders as defending well depends on the whole team). Although the root of the problem is still the central defence (Deji and Pearce are not top-six material) the coaching must have something to do with it. I think we need to strengthen the coaching set-up and that doesn't mean we have to get rid of LB.
0 -
Lincoln built a new squad in the summer. Yes they had more time to do it than Bowyer, but you'd have thought that we would have improved as a side as the players worked together. Indeed part of the problem is self inflicted, the constant changing of players in both windows, removing players in October and January.
This is our squad at the end of August, i.e. at the time when teams have time to "bond". This was under the embargo when we were at the limit and were operating on an "one in and one out" basis
GK - Amos, AMB, (Phillips)
Defence - Purrington, Deji, Pearce, (Lockyer)
Midfield - JFC, Pratley, Morgan, Lapslie, Gilbey + U23s
Attacking midfielders - Williams, Oztumer, Doughty
Forwards - Aneke, Bonne, Washington, Davison
Thin in defence, but elsewhere that looks a pretty decent starting point to me. The first oddity was Lockyer leaving and his space in the squad being used to bring in Levitt, another midfielder. This is how we kicked off the season, with a 2-0 win at Crewe
Amos
Barker Pratley Deji Purrington
JFC Lapslie Gilbey
Doughty Bonne Washington
Subs
Williams, Aneke, Morgan, Oztumer, Levitt, AMB, Vennings
A perfectly respectable looking side that. Not a promotion winning one, but most managers would look at that 18 and see a lot of quality.0 -
I think that Pearce has lost a yard of pace since his injury which really exposes him.1
- Sponsored links:
-
You can't say he has lost his pace, he never had any!cafcfan1990 said:
This. The past means very little when you are 33. His age is catching up on him and he's a 4th choice CB at best now. Deji is the same, I'm a fan, he has mistakes in him but as he's proven over the last 6 weeks or so on his day he can be very good. Neither are good enough to be regularly starting games for a team hoping for promotion though.Chunes said:You can list Pearce's past CV, that's fine, but we've all seen him on the pitch this season. And if you believe he is a top 6 centre half... Well, I can't help there.
How many goals have we concded this season that have been a direct result of Pearce or Oshilaja making an obvious error? 3 or 4?
How many goals have we concded through teams walking through our midfield or having the time for a cup of tea and fag before banging one in the top corner?
The center halves are far from perfect, and look exactly what they are, second choice. However until the second problem is fixed the first one, is mainly, irrelevant as the real Maldini and Baresi wouldn't be able to cope with that.0 -
I didn't. Although he looks even slower than before. I don't disagree with much of the above, although I think it's more like 6/7 errors, which isn't great given the amount of games they have played. Just disagreed that Pearce is good enough to be a top 6 CB, I haven't seen anything to suggest that this season.Cafc43v3r said:
You can't say he has lost his pace, he never had any!cafcfan1990 said:
This. The past means very little when you are 33. His age is catching up on him and he's a 4th choice CB at best now. Deji is the same, I'm a fan, he has mistakes in him but as he's proven over the last 6 weeks or so on his day he can be very good. Neither are good enough to be regularly starting games for a team hoping for promotion though.Chunes said:You can list Pearce's past CV, that's fine, but we've all seen him on the pitch this season. And if you believe he is a top 6 centre half... Well, I can't help there.
How many goals have we concded this season that have been a direct result of Pearce or Oshilaja making an obvious error? 3 or 4?
How many goals have we concded through teams walking through our midfield or having the time for a cup of tea and fag before banging one in the top corner?
The center halves are far from perfect, and look exactly what they are, second choice. However until the second problem is fixed the first one, is mainly, irrelevant as the real Maldini and Baresi wouldn't be able to cope with that.1 -
What’s the stat recently of conceding goals before HT at home? Something ridiculous. That’s not just a poor centre back pairing, that’s irresponsible tactics. How many times prior to that did we have to reshuffle and change shape at HT. It’s always been a problem, we are just now seeing some real punishment from it. If it’s not tactics then what is it? Player mentality? There’s no way this team should be conceding 2 goals per game in the first half at home.13
-
Yes I'm with you. I've said for a while the team needs a identity which I feel like it hasn't got at the moment. Does Bowyer have a history of chopping and changing so drastically I'm not sure he does? Hence why I think he doesn't rate the squad. He has always rotatedDazzler21 said:
You won't find a consistent performing 11 without playing a consistent 11.agim said:
It's very easy to blame the manager. Are we supposed to believe that Bowyer and the team have made these guys bad players over the course of the season? You're talking about 10/11 pros here. I agree he has tinkered loads, almost excessively BUT I do think part of it is the fact we can't find a consistent performing 11. Prime example is last week against Gillingham when he kept the same 11 as Rochdale and they produce that shit show. What's he meant to do this week, keep the same 11 after such a poor showing?Dazzler21 said:
I'll simplify it for you @agimagim said:Dazzler21 said:There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We need a sustained period of playing a single formation and first 11. Only changing when better players become available (Inniss & Famewo) OR players are showing fatigue OR get injured. Rotating for the sake of it just messes with the playing chemistry or 'gelling'.
Even in our 8 game unbeaten run, we tinkered each game, and unsurprisingly the defence had the fewest changes.
I think we can still make the playoffs, even under Bowyer, but he needs to have a settled side to do so.
Out of those signings who has performed ?There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
How do you expect players to gel and perform under the above conditions? We've got the squad that should be making the playoffs, but not they're not a team as they can't gel.
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
Rotation at time is needed as is changes after a poor performance. Its a catch 22 scenario in a sense of which Bowyer and the players are too blame for our poor season.
My argument is he has history of improving players and I'd like to see the likes of DJ, Schwartz and Innis a year from now
I'm not against making changes to freshen up under performing areas or fatigued/injured players, but we won't ever gel unless we try to have a consistent 11.
I agree Bowyer and his team have improved some players, but we've also seen some quality players underperform regularly under that same set up then excel elsewhere.
I'm all for Bowyer kicking on and trying to go for promotion if he can just try to keep at least one thing consistent. Maybe he can stick to one formation so players at least know their role each game. (Once again this may change as a result of enforced changes)
1 -
I do find it strange as I read all the pre-match threads, just how many people want to chop and change our formation, the same players come up in the squads though.
Personally I think the formation is probably the more important bit to keep the same. I mean don't stick to it if it isn't working like Gobinson, but you don't see decent sides change their formation all the time, usually weaker sides try to match them up, like we have several times this season.
0 -
It isn't so much chopping and changing - we have to change as Aneke isn't playing. The question we have to ask is whether Schwartz or Washington are earning their place in the team at the moment.0
-
Schwartz looks miles away from what we need at the momentMuttleyCAFC said:It isn't so much chopping and changing - we have to change as Aneke isn't playing. The question we have to ask is whether Schwartz or Washington are earning their place in the team at the moment.1 -
For the record can I point out Dazzler pinky promised us all he wouldn’t criticise Bowyer for a few weeks .
I’m now calling a stewards enquiry in to his input today
and under section 2.0 , subsection iii paragraph iv of the forum protocol act “do not go back on anything you say” he has clearly not adhered to this .10 -
Well seeing as one has been injured for the past 2-3 games, has scored 7 and assisted 2 this season... I'd say he's earned his place. He's got just under a 1 in 3 goals per game scoring record. People seem to forget the days of a Deon Burton or Josh Magennis as top scorer with maybe 10-12 goals and a couple of assists at best per season and they were lauded for it.MuttleyCAFC said:It isn't so much chopping and changing - we have to change as Aneke isn't playing. The question we have to ask is whether Schwartz or Washington are earning their place in the team at the moment.
(Talking of Magennis he only has 1 goal and 1 assist more than Washington, having played a game more in a far better team)
Schwartz should be coming off the bench for me, but given Wash has been injured, maybe he should be off the bench in this one.
You don't have to change our formation because you're worried about being overrun. You play your game first and worry about theirs second. By changing formation for every opponent you disrupt your play.
1 -
Dependant on the opposition I think Washington gives more to the team... Might be because Schwartz is still lacking that cutting edge fitness after being out for six months but Milton Keynes and Peterborough especially, we've seen that Washington will chase down everything and push the opposition into making a mistake
Id say he's potentially quicker than Schwartz as well who isnt able to rise to the same levels of putting the defence under the necessary pressure to make a mistake which in turns gets us the ball back quicker1 - Sponsored links:
-
Not saying your right or wrong, but who doesn't he rate?agim said:
Yes I'm with you. I've said for a while the team needs a identity which I feel like it hasn't got at the moment. Does Bowyer have a history of chopping and changing so drastically I'm not sure he does? Hence why I think he doesn't rate the squad. He has always rotatedDazzler21 said:
You won't find a consistent performing 11 without playing a consistent 11.agim said:
It's very easy to blame the manager. Are we supposed to believe that Bowyer and the team have made these guys bad players over the course of the season? You're talking about 10/11 pros here. I agree he has tinkered loads, almost excessively BUT I do think part of it is the fact we can't find a consistent performing 11. Prime example is last week against Gillingham when he kept the same 11 as Rochdale and they produce that shit show. What's he meant to do this week, keep the same 11 after such a poor showing?Dazzler21 said:
I'll simplify it for you @agimagim said:Dazzler21 said:There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
We need a sustained period of playing a single formation and first 11. Only changing when better players become available (Inniss & Famewo) OR players are showing fatigue OR get injured. Rotating for the sake of it just messes with the playing chemistry or 'gelling'.
Even in our 8 game unbeaten run, we tinkered each game, and unsurprisingly the defence had the fewest changes.
I think we can still make the playoffs, even under Bowyer, but he needs to have a settled side to do so.
Out of those signings who has performed ?There's a lot of class in there, do you think they suddenly all became average league one players overnight? Or do you think the Manager and his training and tactics may play a part?
How do you expect players to gel and perform under the above conditions? We've got the squad that should be making the playoffs, but not they're not a team as they can't gel.
A reminder we have played with:
18 different defence set ups,
25 different midfield set ups,
22 different forward lines
across 6 different formations.
Rotation at time is needed as is changes after a poor performance. Its a catch 22 scenario in a sense of which Bowyer and the players are too blame for our poor season.
My argument is he has history of improving players and I'd like to see the likes of DJ, Schwartz and Innis a year from now
I'm not against making changes to freshen up under performing areas or fatigued/injured players, but we won't ever gel unless we try to have a consistent 11.
I agree Bowyer and his team have improved some players, but we've also seen some quality players underperform regularly under that same set up then excel elsewhere.
I'm all for Bowyer kicking on and trying to go for promotion if he can just try to keep at least one thing consistent. Maybe he can stick to one formation so players at least know their role each game. (Once again this may change as a result of enforced changes)
If the answer is "the center halves" it raises a number of questions, the answers to which lay firmly at Bowyer's door.1 -
You've drunk the cool-aidForeverAddickted said:What we're seeing is the best players dont instantly make the best squads
Why havent Belgium, apparently the best team in International Football won a Major Tournament yet?
Hence why when Leeds and West Ham each got relegated from the Premier League the opinion always was: "They're too good to go down"
As I've questioned a few times this season, Bowyer effectively had two / three weeks to put a whole new squad together, all the while under a Salary Cap. Yes it was his choice to sign the likes of Gunter and Watson on high wages but the risk of utilising experience with youth doesnt appear to be working on this occasion.
People may not like it but on that basis, yes we are over achieving, a squad put together in such short notice against squads that have been together a lot longer and we probably are punching above our weight because they've got the benefit of having familiarity of playing together. I find the notion of the best team with the best budget, especially at this level extremely prehistoric - Even the likes of Darren Pratley have said in the last week how its been difficult for new signings to gel because the squad havent been able to go for a meal and get to know each other properly, what happens off the pitch appears to be so massively ignored by fans to an extent.
Wasnt it David Wagner and Huddersfield who went to some extremely remote part of Norway or Sweden where they basically fended for themselves the whole time, it created a squad of players that were close, could trust each other and won promotion to the Premier League
Its why I'm sticking to my guns that Bowyer should be given one last build with a proper pre-season where there is time for the players to work on things without the consequences of competitive fixtures, combined with being to head off somewhere, even if its the Belfrey again so whatever new team has the opportunity to get to know each other4 -
Yes, Washington is the better all round player, whereas Schwartz is the better finisherForeverAddickted said:Dependant on the opposition I think Washington gives more to the team... Might be because Schwartz is still lacking that cutting edge fitness after being out for six months but Milton Keynes and Peterborough especially, we've seen that Washington will chase down everything and push the opposition into making a mistake
Id say he's potentially quicker than Schwartz as well who isnt able to rise to the same levels of putting the defence under the necessary pressure to make a mistake which in turns gets us the ball back quicker3 -
I'm not criticising, just providing an opinion that we need to stick to a formation given my findings that we make too many changes.oohaahmortimer said:For the record can I point out Dazzler pinky promised us all he wouldn’t criticise Bowyer for a few weeks .
I’m now calling a stewards enquiry in to his input today
and under section 2.0 , subsection iii paragraph iv of the forum protocol act “do not go back on anything you say” he has clearly not adhered to this .
*Okay I also criticised people for saying Bowyer only had two weeks and I criticised them for saying the players under performing isn't down to the constant unforced formation and squad changes.
I have also criticised those criticising Bowyer though saying he makes too many changes etc then suggesting we make more changes and play even more formations!
I even added in a comment to FA that I actually had no issue with how Bowyer set up against Gillingham, obviously that went to shit but I want as near to that side again.
I'll get back in line. BOWYER FOR PM!3 -
Schwartz is a player that we are waiting to take off and there is a decent chance he will - but I think he needs to be eased in as a sub. Washington has scored a few goals (adequate rather than good) but he can have games where he is anonymous and I don't think we can afford one of those on Saturday. We have to get this run started a.s.a.p.2
-
I may have missed it but once all the new players arrived not one person was questioning the squad strength or showing any concern that play offs may be a struggle .
Then with the miracle run no one said I’m not sure about this , it was all it’s only gonna get better once they get to know each other .
Now oh they’re not good enough he can’t walk , he’s got 3 left feet and we should be grateful we’re above Wigan .7 -
Keep on going Dazzzler , loving the graft and numbers and tables etc x5
-
I think a fair few mentioned the most important factor would be the return of Famewo.oohaahmortimer said:I may have missed it but once all the new players arrived not one person was questioning the squad strength or showing any concern that play offs may be a struggle .
Then with the miracle run no one said I’m not sure about this , it was all it’s only gonna get better once they get to know each other .
Now oh they’re not good enough he can’t walk , he’s got 3 left feet and we should be grateful we’re above Wigan .0 -
Important it is a 100% fit Famewo though.1
-
I am tempted to say Inniss won't play more than 5 games more this season.
Famewo will finish the last 15 I think. (Risk of new injuries aside)2
This discussion has been closed.
