Post Match Thread: Charlton v Burton Albion | Tues 23rd Feb 2021

MuttleyCAFC said:

At least that disloyal act of replacing Lampard is backfiring for Chelsea!

paulfox said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

paulfox said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

That is a bit simplistic. This isn't American football. My caveat in giving JJ a chance is that the players like him. That would be important in the coming weeks if we were to turn things round. Also, that he has different ideas to Bowyer, which he could very well do. 

Bowyer was coaching the players under Robinson, but changed the tactics when he took over.

Football should be simple, there is no guarantee jj does have different ideas and that they would be successful. I’m sure all the players liked les Reed when he took charge, how did that go?. For the record I do know the difference between American football and our football. You can disagree without being patronising.I have no problem with people having a differing opinion. in my opinion it’s a risk promoting a number two, particularly in a struggling side.

You may be right. I have caveated that the players would be on board with JJ. It seems pointless giving him a caretaker role if that wasn't the case. I think it is wrong to blame JJ for what looks on the outside to be issues with the manager whilst accepting the possibility. That would be for Roddy and Sandgaard to assess.

Happy to be corrected, but I think Dowie was quite popular with the players and Reed stabbing him in the back was a perception of some of them.

I wasn’t meaning to seem like I was putting the defence all on jj’s shoulders, absolutely with sadness I’m saying the big issue and poor decisions are on bowyer. I’m just not convinced the timing would be right for jj. I don’t know for sure, none of us do but I feel like we need a bit of freshness from outside,experience,and someone that can balance keeping the players on side and having real belief in what they are doing. Paul cook??? 

paulfox said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

paulfox said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

That is a bit simplistic. This isn't American football. My caveat in giving JJ a chance is that the players like him. That would be important in the coming weeks if we were to turn things round. Also, that he has different ideas to Bowyer, which he could very well do. 

Bowyer was coaching the players under Robinson, but changed the tactics when he took over.

Football should be simple, there is no guarantee jj does have different ideas and that they would be successful. I’m sure all the players liked les Reed when he took charge, how did that go?. For the record I do know the difference between American football and our football. You can disagree without being patronising.I have no problem with people having a differing opinion. in my opinion it’s a risk promoting a number two, particularly in a struggling side.

You may be right. I have caveated that the players would be on board with JJ. It seems pointless giving him a caretaker role if that wasn't the case. I think it is wrong to blame JJ for what looks on the outside to be issues with the manager whilst accepting the possibility. That would be for Roddy and Sandgaard to assess.

Happy to be corrected, but I think Dowie was quite popular with the players and Reed stabbing him in the back was a perception of some of them.

Was Dowie not the architect of his own downfall by not telling the truth of his departure from palace? And spunking 11m on shit players(largely).

LoOkOuT said:

FishCostaFortune said:

LoOkOuT said:

Cafc43v3r said:

LoOkOuT said:

I’m finding it really hard to relate to the modern game. The way that money has corrupted the game is awful, but the effect it has had on the way supporters’ think (talk and act) is truly tragic. 

Managers have always been sacked.  Alf Ramsey was sacked.  Any Charlton manager who finishes in the bottom half of the 3rd division is likely to be sacked. 

I don't think it's a modern problem.  20 years ago we would all be saying this in the pub, that's the only difference. 

Saying that managers have always been sacked is ridiculous. I don’t mean to single you out, but it’s too great an example of exactly the point I’m making. That sentence means nothing. It’s a truism masquerading as insight.  Of course manager’s have always been sacked. No one thinks that managers should die in the job. It’s the kind of thing we hear all the time and it’s because we talk Premier League speak more often than not.

Should Bowyer be fired? Should he resign? Maybe, maybe not. It’s something worthy of debate.

Sure, but my point is much more about how it’s discussed. Maybe thirty years ago we’d all be discussing it in the pub. But I guarantee, it’d be a level above the rubbish spouted these day. We can’t help ourselves to debate the subject with respect for everyone involved. That’s a modern problem.

It’s not looking back with rose-colored glasses. I know things weren’t better then. But the money in the game has put players, managers, and pundits on a pedestal. There’s such a gulf between us all, that we’ve decided that it’s perfectly normal to spout off our frustrations in any way we feel. Bowyer stuck by this club and could do with some backing now that things aren’t going his way. I’m happy to debate whether that’s justified. I’d like to read people’s opinions. But there’s less and less of that to engage with. It’s invectives and vile. That’s what so much of “being a supporter” is now reduced to. And that’s tragic.

I think you're getting a football/money issue and social media issue totally mixed up. 

Considering people air they views about everything in the same way over social media, its easy to see that it's not just a 'modern game money' issue, and just an issue that social media has allowed humans basically to act like the animals we are.

Maybe. I’ve made a couple of amendments to make my argument clearer. But to your point, taking Twitter as an example: take the other realm where this is manifest in a similar way: celebrities. It’s because these people (celebrities and footballers) are elevated to another realm (for the money machine). They live lives most don’t get a sniff at. And at that point, we’ve decided they’re fair game (especially behind a keyboard). Of course it’s fair game to criticise them. To argue against them, or what they’ve done, or whatever. The difference is, everyone takes it personally. And they make their criticism’s personal. And then they make that personal attack vile. And that’s what the premier league circus has done to the game.

Viewfinder said:

We played brilliantly tonight: quick and accurate and incisive. So did Burton Albion. It was a beautiful match: fluid and flowing, with subtle touches and clever moves.

No time for our usual navel-gazing! We raised our game to Burton Albion. This, at least, might show a constituency on this forum that players like Morgan and Lapslie – home-grown! - are merely agricultural. We need intelligence, sharpness – and sublime touches, along with force and power.

It was a thoroughly enjoyable game: we played well. I like Bowyer. He knows that our midfield should seize possession and advance in his image. Conor Gallagher was the man. Pratley is tough all right – in the third division. We are overloaded with strikers – five or six of them, bumbling and fumbling – yet Jayden Stockley is our best: temporarily, on loan.

Schwartz is a turkey, hyped before, like Ajose. We shall keep going, pushing and pressing – Millar is mustard, educated in a superior academy: he skins opponents, gets forward and flashes the ball dangerously to the box. We remain close to the play-offs, with dozens of game to go.

Lee Bowyer is still the man for us.  He stands for no nonsense. He’s a fighter – literally and metaphorically.

golfaddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

I think we have to trust Sandgaard and Roddy in terms of how and who to replace Bowyer. But he hasn't been sacked yet.

My problem is......does Sandgaard know the true feeling amongst fans ? He knows Bowyer is a legend & may fear a backlash if he sacks him. 

golfaddick said:

stoneroses19 said:

golfaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

msomerton said:

A new manager could do little better with that set of players,  let's be honest about the failings of the players as well.

Disagree. I'll have a little bet with you that you will see a big improvement under any new manager.

Totally agree. Problem is its far too late now to have any effect on this season, but at least a new manager will get a good look at the players & some might bust a gut to get a new deal in the summer.

Notice Nigel Pearson got a win in his first game. 5 straight defeats before then for Bristol City. 

But nah.......don't want him. Let's stick to Charlton old boys again. Euell....Jackson.....😴😴😴😴

Robinson was sacked end of March, we were 9th and 5 points away from play offs.

Take a look at the table & the number of games teams have played. The way it is looking I doubt there will be much change to the top 6 for the rest of the season. Donny are on a bit of a slide do they could easily  fall out if it - but they currently have 3 games on hand. Maybe Oxford will sneak in there but we certainly wont. 

Blucher said:

Another game, another new system, with three central defenders, wing backs, Miller and DJ wide and Stockley the sole central striker. Presumably we had all of Monday morning’s training session to try and perfect this new formation. In terms of personnel, the three defensive changes seemed perfectly reasonable; the inclusion of Watson and the exclusion of Aneke much less so, especially given the latter’s suspension last weekend.

We started the game very well and could easily have been 2-0 up inside the first 20 minutes. That was, however, as good as it got. A clever short corner routine which their guy squandered was a warning shot but dozy and lackadaisical defending from a throw on allowed their winger an age to put over a looping cross for their lump of a centre forward to outmuscle our defenders and head the equaliser. Burton never really looked back from that point and - urged on from the touchline by an animated JFH - were a yard sharper and more cohesive than us for the remainder of the game. They looked exactly what they were - a team who, despite their limitations, had a plan and a belief (realistic, as it turned out) that we were there for the taking.

We were exceptionally poor in the second half and had only one meaningful effort on goal, with Purrington drawing a good save from their goalie. In addition to their winning goal, Burton had 3 or 4 other decent efforts and, in the end, the 2-1 scoreline almost flattered us. At no stage whatsoever did we  look like getting back on terms and the players’ heads seemed to go down once we fell behind. There appeared to be no belief in the side that we could get anything from the game and Bowyer’s further tinkering in terms of formations and substitutions failed to bear fruit; on the contrary, they only added to the general sense of desperation, chaos and gloom.

The players looked mentally shot and our season is rapidly falling apart. Our results since early November - 22 points from 20 games - is very close to relegation form and, given the direction of travel, I fear there is a very realistic chance of the side equalling our worst post-War position of 14th in the 3rd tier in 1973/74. Sadly, that outcome is far more likely than a top 6 finish, with play-offs aspirations now a pipe dream.

Leaving sentiment aside, the question now for Thomas Sandgaard is simply this: is Lee Bowyer the man to turn this around and build a side who can take us back to the Championship by the end of next season ? I am afraid that is looking increasingly unlikely, with Lee appearing to be bereft of ideas and unable to get the best out of the players at his disposal.

In the absence of any discernible improvement over the next few games, the remaining dozen or so fixtures will become energy sapping and depressing dead rubbers. In that event, there must be a good chance that Thomas will want to make a change and give the new man a chance to assess the squad in order to decide (1) which of the current group should be retained and (2) which players should be recruited as part of the inevitable rebuilding process. It would also be useful to determine what style of play we want to try and adopt going forward, as the current team lacks any kind of identity.

Lee Bowyer has given us some great memories over the last three years, mostly in exceptionally difficult circumstances, and the situation in which he now finds himself greatly saddens me. I hope I am wrong and that he can revive the team’s fortunes but I believe his days are numbered.

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

Anyway back to the actual game.

Early days yet but I have to say my first impressions of Jaiyesimi are not great. He scarcely beat a man, his passing was wayward and I'm convinced Burton's first goal was down to him switching off and letting their player run past him and get a cross in. If we've got rid of Williams for him, I don't see we have come out of this stronger.

As I say early days and he needs to play in his proper position - not in some strange deep lying winger role miles behind a loan striker -  and in a team full of more confidence before we can properly pass judgment but I hope there is a lot more to his game than he showed tonight.