AddicksAddict said:

I met a female weightlifter. Despite my many years of being a man, if I transitioned I’d never have beaten her in a women’s competition.  Not every man is stronger than every woman, I suspect a strength graph split by gender would be bell curves with a very big overlap. 

Leroy Ambrose said:

O-Randy-Hunt said:

AddicksAddict said:

I met a female weightlifter. Despite my many years of being a man, if I transitioned I’d never have beaten her in a women’s competition.  Not every man is stronger than every woman, I suspect a strength graph split by gender would be bell curves with a very big overlap. 

That doesnt even make sense.

'I've met a female swimmer, despite my many years of being a man, if I transitioned I'd never have beaten her in a race' ..... because I dont swim for a living.

Same as the muppets who look at women's football on telly and think "I could do better than that". No mate, you couldn't trap a wet bag of cement if someone dropped it on your foot. Big difference, however, between men's semi-pro footballers and the average twat down Goals. The two things are totally different arguments - elite men will ALWAYS beat elite women at the highest level because genetics.

Leroy Ambrose said:

SID said:

Leroy Ambrose said:

Hal1x said:

If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.

How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?

Is it really 2021?

Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just
 commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that
 someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s  male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it. 

Depends on what you define as 'a million miles'. For instance, someone who derives sexual gratification from dressing as a woman, vs someone who is actually inter-gender seems pretty different to me - as 'different' as straight vs gay.

There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong' 

Dazzler21 said:

Leroy Ambrose said:

SID said:

Leroy Ambrose said:

Hal1x said:

If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.

How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?

Is it really 2021?

Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just
 commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that
 someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s  male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it. 

Depends on what you define as 'a million miles'. For instance, someone who derives sexual gratification from dressing as a woman, vs someone who is actually inter-gender seems pretty different to me - as 'different' as straight vs gay.

There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong' 

Not going to agree with this... I can think of many examples where being different is incredibly wrong... Racists, Homophobes, Peadophiles, Rapists, Murderers... the list goes on. 

Obviously the trans debate sits on the examples where being different is fine, but it's a sweeping generalisation to say different = right or different = wrong.

Dazzler21 said:

Leroy Ambrose said:

SID said:

Leroy Ambrose said:

Hal1x said:

If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.

How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?

Is it really 2021?

Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just
 commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that
 someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s  male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it. 

Depends on what you define as 'a million miles'. For instance, someone who derives sexual gratification from dressing as a woman, vs someone who is actually inter-gender seems pretty different to me - as 'different' as straight vs gay.

There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong' 

Not going to agree with this... I can think of many examples where being different is incredibly wrong... Racists, Homophobes, Peadophiles, Rapists, Murderers... the list goes on. 

Obviously the trans debate sits on the examples where being different is fine, but it's a sweeping generalisation to say different = right or different = wrong.

Leuth said:

bigstemarra said:

If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be able to compete in a race for female athletes as it simply is not fair, regardless of transition age.  The inherent biological advantages begin in utero via differences in transcription factors controlling androgen production which leads to increased muscle mass and the other sporting advantages that have already been mentioned.  It is not a level playing field. 

Most recognise this fact and it is only a minority who deny biological reality, preferring ideological dogma.  This is one of the reasons why Stonewall (who appear to have abandoned and alienated many former feminist and gay allies in this matter having been a fantastic success story previously) and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves, because they have taken an extreme position and assumed that the usual tactics of unleashing the SJWs on social media to scream 'transphobe' at anyone who does not adopt their position 100% will see all opposition crumble (although their adherents appear to be loathe to try any other tactic).  Now, the IOC and other spineless organisations have done so, but others are starting to grow increasingly uneasy at the fact that the policies of international organisations, corporations and public institutions are being decided by what is a minority of extremists without room for logic or rationality.  Most people believe in tolerance, but they also believe in fairness.  Also, most people don't live in a Twitter echo chamber.

I have no doubt that pushing an extreme position on this matter will harm the trans lobby more in the long run; when the public get to see the reality of it on their screens it will shock many and get them to wonder how we have allowed ourselves to be dictated to by lunatics (see also transitioned folk in womens' prisons, toilets, refuges etc.).  I know that it isn't their style, but maybe actually listening to counter arguments and seeking a solution via compromise would ultimately help the trans cause much more.

I won't hold my breath, though.

This was aimed at my claim that early-transitioning people should be treated just like others of their preferred gender by the world of sports. I might have seen it coming!

A trifle rich, perhaps, to accuse others of 'ideological dogma' in a post that also contains the phrases

- 'Stonewall and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves'
- 'unleashing the SJWs'
- 'spineless organisations'
- 'Twitter echo chamber'
- 'dictated to by lunatics'
- 'the trans lobby'
- 'transitioned folk in women's prisons, toilets, refuges etc'

...but I suppose *sigh* I'd better take this. Yes yes, you've pulled your head-measuring 'boys can jump 10% further than girls'/'it's all about the androgen production!!' facts and logic from somewhere or other, but do these facts and logic take into account that

- boys' comparative strength and speed pre-puberty might have something to do with upbringing and mentality as well as physique
- those who transition might not be typical of boys
- early transition UNDOES the slight pre-puberty advantages named in that survey

I guess we'll see how level of a playing field it is when more trans people who transitioned in childhood participate in women's sport. We have a Kent cricketer to go by, thus far, and really nobody else I can think of. She's already suffered the monstrous scrutiny of the reactionary ideologues, but her teammates have all supported her and made her welcome. I hope it can be increasingly normalised, whatever her at-birth androgen count was. 

And as for the arguments about prisons, toilets and refuges, they're much more spurious still and, by now, old ground that doesn't need returning to.

SomervilleAddick said:

Henry Irving said:

PrincessFiona said:

Leuth said:

bigstemarra said:

If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be able to compete in a race for female athletes as it simply is not fair, regardless of transition age.  The inherent biological advantages begin in utero via differences in transcription factors controlling androgen production which leads to increased muscle mass and the other sporting advantages that have already been mentioned.  It is not a level playing field. 

Most recognise this fact and it is only a minority who deny biological reality, preferring ideological dogma.  This is one of the reasons why Stonewall (who appear to have abandoned and alienated many former feminist and gay allies in this matter having been a fantastic success story previously) and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves, because they have taken an extreme position and assumed that the usual tactics of unleashing the SJWs on social media to scream 'transphobe' at anyone who does not adopt their position 100% will see all opposition crumble (although their adherents appear to be loathe to try any other tactic).  Now, the IOC and other spineless organisations have done so, but others are starting to grow increasingly uneasy at the fact that the policies of international organisations, corporations and public institutions are being decided by what is a minority of extremists without room for logic or rationality.  Most people believe in tolerance, but they also believe in fairness.  Also, most people don't live in a Twitter echo chamber.

I have no doubt that pushing an extreme position on this matter will harm the trans lobby more in the long run; when the public get to see the reality of it on their screens it will shock many and get them to wonder how we have allowed ourselves to be dictated to by lunatics (see also transitioned folk in womens' prisons, toilets, refuges etc.).  I know that it isn't their style, but maybe actually listening to counter arguments and seeking a solution via compromise would ultimately help the trans cause much more.

I won't hold my breath, though.

This was aimed at my claim that early-transitioning people should be treated just like others of their preferred gender by the world of sports. I might have seen it coming!

A trifle rich, perhaps, to accuse others of 'ideological dogma' in a post that also contains the phrases

- 'Stonewall and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves'
- 'unleashing the SJWs'
- 'spineless organisations'
- 'Twitter echo chamber'
- 'dictated to by lunatics'
- 'the trans lobby'
- 'transitioned folk in women's prisons, toilets, refuges etc'

...but I suppose *sigh* I'd better take this. Yes yes, you've pulled your head-measuring 'boys can jump 10% further than girls'/'it's all about the androgen production!!' facts and logic from somewhere or other, but do these facts and logic take into account that

- boys' comparative strength and speed pre-puberty might have something to do with upbringing and mentality as well as physique
- those who transition might not be typical of boys
- early transition UNDOES the slight pre-puberty advantages named in that survey

I guess we'll see how level of a playing field it is when more trans people who transitioned in childhood participate in women's sport. We have a Kent cricketer to go by, thus far, and really nobody else I can think of. She's already suffered the monstrous scrutiny of the reactionary ideologues, but her teammates have all supported her and made her welcome. I hope it can be increasingly normalised, whatever her at-birth androgen count was. 

And as for the arguments about prisons, toilets and refuges, they're much more spurious still and, by now, old ground that doesn't need returning to.

I agree pre-puberty transition needs distinct consideration. Such is the impact of puberty, especially on someone who is considering transitioning, that there is considerable debate as to whether an individual is mature enough to be able to make the decision. The pressure to transition before the effects of puberty must be immense - I mean from the individual on themselves not by others

Agreed the other subjects such as toilets are for a different thread.

Pre-puberty transition is hugely problematic IMHO 

To what extent can a ten year old or younger person give informed consent about major, life changing surgery and drug treatment.

Why? Pre-puberty transition rarely, if ever, involves surgery. It’s normally using drugs to delay puberty. Also, it’s not something where a kid wakes up one morning and decides to transition so they pop down the GPS office for some drugs. As well as needing parental permission, they’ll also need to undergo psychiatric counseling before they can start any drug program. 

Would you prefer forcing trans children to go through puberty first? Locking them into a body they don’t believe is theirs, and simultaneously doubting their ability to know what they feel. The effects of that are very real on their mental state. 

Nobody, children, parents, psychiatrists or doctors, enter into this lightly, and by using puberty delaying drugs, they do so in a way that’s reversible. 

It’s a dangerous path to ignore a child’s views because you don’t believe their old enough to recognize they are somehow different. 

Leuth said:

It would be good to get the perspective of parents of trans children, I quite agree

SomervilleAddick said:

Henry Irving said:

PrincessFiona said:

Leuth said:

bigstemarra said:

If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be able to compete in a race for female athletes as it simply is not fair, regardless of transition age.  The inherent biological advantages begin in utero via differences in transcription factors controlling androgen production which leads to increased muscle mass and the other sporting advantages that have already been mentioned.  It is not a level playing field. 

Most recognise this fact and it is only a minority who deny biological reality, preferring ideological dogma.  This is one of the reasons why Stonewall (who appear to have abandoned and alienated many former feminist and gay allies in this matter having been a fantastic success story previously) and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves, because they have taken an extreme position and assumed that the usual tactics of unleashing the SJWs on social media to scream 'transphobe' at anyone who does not adopt their position 100% will see all opposition crumble (although their adherents appear to be loathe to try any other tactic).  Now, the IOC and other spineless organisations have done so, but others are starting to grow increasingly uneasy at the fact that the policies of international organisations, corporations and public institutions are being decided by what is a minority of extremists without room for logic or rationality.  Most people believe in tolerance, but they also believe in fairness.  Also, most people don't live in a Twitter echo chamber.

I have no doubt that pushing an extreme position on this matter will harm the trans lobby more in the long run; when the public get to see the reality of it on their screens it will shock many and get them to wonder how we have allowed ourselves to be dictated to by lunatics (see also transitioned folk in womens' prisons, toilets, refuges etc.).  I know that it isn't their style, but maybe actually listening to counter arguments and seeking a solution via compromise would ultimately help the trans cause much more.

I won't hold my breath, though.

This was aimed at my claim that early-transitioning people should be treated just like others of their preferred gender by the world of sports. I might have seen it coming!

A trifle rich, perhaps, to accuse others of 'ideological dogma' in a post that also contains the phrases

- 'Stonewall and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves'
- 'unleashing the SJWs'
- 'spineless organisations'
- 'Twitter echo chamber'
- 'dictated to by lunatics'
- 'the trans lobby'
- 'transitioned folk in women's prisons, toilets, refuges etc'

...but I suppose *sigh* I'd better take this. Yes yes, you've pulled your head-measuring 'boys can jump 10% further than girls'/'it's all about the androgen production!!' facts and logic from somewhere or other, but do these facts and logic take into account that

- boys' comparative strength and speed pre-puberty might have something to do with upbringing and mentality as well as physique
- those who transition might not be typical of boys
- early transition UNDOES the slight pre-puberty advantages named in that survey

I guess we'll see how level of a playing field it is when more trans people who transitioned in childhood participate in women's sport. We have a Kent cricketer to go by, thus far, and really nobody else I can think of. She's already suffered the monstrous scrutiny of the reactionary ideologues, but her teammates have all supported her and made her welcome. I hope it can be increasingly normalised, whatever her at-birth androgen count was. 

And as for the arguments about prisons, toilets and refuges, they're much more spurious still and, by now, old ground that doesn't need returning to.

I agree pre-puberty transition needs distinct consideration. Such is the impact of puberty, especially on someone who is considering transitioning, that there is considerable debate as to whether an individual is mature enough to be able to make the decision. The pressure to transition before the effects of puberty must be immense - I mean from the individual on themselves not by others

Agreed the other subjects such as toilets are for a different thread.

Pre-puberty transition is hugely problematic IMHO 

To what extent can a ten year old or younger person give informed consent about major, life changing surgery and drug treatment.

Why? Pre-puberty transition rarely, if ever, involves surgery. It’s normally using drugs to delay puberty. Also, it’s not something where a kid wakes up one morning and decides to transition so they pop down the GPS office for some drugs. As well as needing parental permission, they’ll also need to undergo psychiatric counseling before they can start any drug program. 

Would you prefer forcing trans children to go through puberty first? Locking them into a body they don’t believe is theirs, and simultaneously doubting their ability to know what they feel. The effects of that are very real on their mental state. 

Nobody, children, parents, psychiatrists or doctors, enter into this lightly, and by using puberty delaying drugs, they do so in a way that’s reversible. 

It’s a dangerous path to ignore a child’s views because you don’t believe their old enough to recognize they are somehow different. 

SomervilleAddick said:

Henry Irving said:

PrincessFiona said:

Leuth said:

bigstemarra said:

If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be able to compete in a race for female athletes as it simply is not fair, regardless of transition age.  The inherent biological advantages begin in utero via differences in transcription factors controlling androgen production which leads to increased muscle mass and the other sporting advantages that have already been mentioned.  It is not a level playing field. 

Most recognise this fact and it is only a minority who deny biological reality, preferring ideological dogma.  This is one of the reasons why Stonewall (who appear to have abandoned and alienated many former feminist and gay allies in this matter having been a fantastic success story previously) and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves, because they have taken an extreme position and assumed that the usual tactics of unleashing the SJWs on social media to scream 'transphobe' at anyone who does not adopt their position 100% will see all opposition crumble (although their adherents appear to be loathe to try any other tactic).  Now, the IOC and other spineless organisations have done so, but others are starting to grow increasingly uneasy at the fact that the policies of international organisations, corporations and public institutions are being decided by what is a minority of extremists without room for logic or rationality.  Most people believe in tolerance, but they also believe in fairness.  Also, most people don't live in a Twitter echo chamber.

I have no doubt that pushing an extreme position on this matter will harm the trans lobby more in the long run; when the public get to see the reality of it on their screens it will shock many and get them to wonder how we have allowed ourselves to be dictated to by lunatics (see also transitioned folk in womens' prisons, toilets, refuges etc.).  I know that it isn't their style, but maybe actually listening to counter arguments and seeking a solution via compromise would ultimately help the trans cause much more.

I won't hold my breath, though.

This was aimed at my claim that early-transitioning people should be treated just like others of their preferred gender by the world of sports. I might have seen it coming!

A trifle rich, perhaps, to accuse others of 'ideological dogma' in a post that also contains the phrases

- 'Stonewall and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves'
- 'unleashing the SJWs'
- 'spineless organisations'
- 'Twitter echo chamber'
- 'dictated to by lunatics'
- 'the trans lobby'
- 'transitioned folk in women's prisons, toilets, refuges etc'

...but I suppose *sigh* I'd better take this. Yes yes, you've pulled your head-measuring 'boys can jump 10% further than girls'/'it's all about the androgen production!!' facts and logic from somewhere or other, but do these facts and logic take into account that

- boys' comparative strength and speed pre-puberty might have something to do with upbringing and mentality as well as physique
- those who transition might not be typical of boys
- early transition UNDOES the slight pre-puberty advantages named in that survey

I guess we'll see how level of a playing field it is when more trans people who transitioned in childhood participate in women's sport. We have a Kent cricketer to go by, thus far, and really nobody else I can think of. She's already suffered the monstrous scrutiny of the reactionary ideologues, but her teammates have all supported her and made her welcome. I hope it can be increasingly normalised, whatever her at-birth androgen count was. 

And as for the arguments about prisons, toilets and refuges, they're much more spurious still and, by now, old ground that doesn't need returning to.

I agree pre-puberty transition needs distinct consideration. Such is the impact of puberty, especially on someone who is considering transitioning, that there is considerable debate as to whether an individual is mature enough to be able to make the decision. The pressure to transition before the effects of puberty must be immense - I mean from the individual on themselves not by others

Agreed the other subjects such as toilets are for a different thread.

Pre-puberty transition is hugely problematic IMHO 

To what extent can a ten year old or younger person give informed consent about major, life changing surgery and drug treatment.

Why? Pre-puberty transition rarely, if ever, involves surgery. It’s normally using drugs to delay puberty. Also, it’s not something where a kid wakes up one morning and decides to transition so they pop down the GPS office for some drugs. As well as needing parental permission, they’ll also need to undergo psychiatric counseling before they can start any drug program. 

Would you prefer forcing trans children to go through puberty first? Locking them into a body they don’t believe is theirs, and simultaneously doubting their ability to know what they feel. The effects of that are very real on their mental state. 

Nobody, children, parents, psychiatrists or doctors, enter into this lightly, and by using puberty delaying drugs, they do so in a way that’s reversible. 

It’s a dangerous path to ignore a child’s views because you don’t believe their old enough to recognize they are somehow different. 

BBC Woman’s Hour reported today on an important change to the NHS website section on gender dysphoria: the NHS no longer says that puberty blockers are ‘reversible.’

The new updated section on the NHS website is an improvement on older versions, the information is more accurate and fact-based, there is less ideology and more care is taken with language. It represents a step in the right direction and we welcome the positive changes.

There are some particularly significant amendments in the updated version, the most important of which is the issue of reversibility of puberty blockers. Here are the main changes:

Puberty Blockers

GONE is the claim that puberty blockers are considered to be fully reversible:

“The effects of treatment with GnRH analogues are considered to be fully reversible, so treatment can usually be stopped at any time after a discussion between you, your child and your MDT”.

NEW is the admission that long-term effects are unknown:

“Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”

This paints a very different picture. The Tavistock GIDS is saying that the effects of blockers are physically reversible yet the NHS is now saying that this is not known.

Unknown effects on the developing adolescent brain should be reason enough to question the use of puberty blockers for this age-group; the fact that this has not been flagged before is testament to the existence of the seemingly different rules that govern transgender healthcare.  Would parents say yes to puberty blockers if they knew that trials on sheep suggest that blockers impair brain development in significant areas, which is not reversed if blockers are discontinued? We know there is a window of development in puberty which, if missed, cannot be regained at a later stage.

We also know that nearly 100% of children on blockers progress to cross-sex hormones and we know nothing about the long-term neurological effects if a person never experiences the surge of sex hormones their body needs and expects in adolescence according to whether they are male or female.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/nhs-no-longer-puberty-blockers-reversible/

Henry Irving said:

SomervilleAddick said:

Henry Irving said:

PrincessFiona said:

Leuth said:

bigstemarra said:

If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be able to compete in a race for female athletes as it simply is not fair, regardless of transition age.  The inherent biological advantages begin in utero via differences in transcription factors controlling androgen production which leads to increased muscle mass and the other sporting advantages that have already been mentioned.  It is not a level playing field. 

Most recognise this fact and it is only a minority who deny biological reality, preferring ideological dogma.  This is one of the reasons why Stonewall (who appear to have abandoned and alienated many former feminist and gay allies in this matter having been a fantastic success story previously) and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves, because they have taken an extreme position and assumed that the usual tactics of unleashing the SJWs on social media to scream 'transphobe' at anyone who does not adopt their position 100% will see all opposition crumble (although their adherents appear to be loathe to try any other tactic).  Now, the IOC and other spineless organisations have done so, but others are starting to grow increasingly uneasy at the fact that the policies of international organisations, corporations and public institutions are being decided by what is a minority of extremists without room for logic or rationality.  Most people believe in tolerance, but they also believe in fairness.  Also, most people don't live in a Twitter echo chamber.

I have no doubt that pushing an extreme position on this matter will harm the trans lobby more in the long run; when the public get to see the reality of it on their screens it will shock many and get them to wonder how we have allowed ourselves to be dictated to by lunatics (see also transitioned folk in womens' prisons, toilets, refuges etc.).  I know that it isn't their style, but maybe actually listening to counter arguments and seeking a solution via compromise would ultimately help the trans cause much more.

I won't hold my breath, though.

This was aimed at my claim that early-transitioning people should be treated just like others of their preferred gender by the world of sports. I might have seen it coming!

A trifle rich, perhaps, to accuse others of 'ideological dogma' in a post that also contains the phrases

- 'Stonewall and its fundamentalists are destroying themselves'
- 'unleashing the SJWs'
- 'spineless organisations'
- 'Twitter echo chamber'
- 'dictated to by lunatics'
- 'the trans lobby'
- 'transitioned folk in women's prisons, toilets, refuges etc'

...but I suppose *sigh* I'd better take this. Yes yes, you've pulled your head-measuring 'boys can jump 10% further than girls'/'it's all about the androgen production!!' facts and logic from somewhere or other, but do these facts and logic take into account that

- boys' comparative strength and speed pre-puberty might have something to do with upbringing and mentality as well as physique
- those who transition might not be typical of boys
- early transition UNDOES the slight pre-puberty advantages named in that survey

I guess we'll see how level of a playing field it is when more trans people who transitioned in childhood participate in women's sport. We have a Kent cricketer to go by, thus far, and really nobody else I can think of. She's already suffered the monstrous scrutiny of the reactionary ideologues, but her teammates have all supported her and made her welcome. I hope it can be increasingly normalised, whatever her at-birth androgen count was. 

And as for the arguments about prisons, toilets and refuges, they're much more spurious still and, by now, old ground that doesn't need returning to.

I agree pre-puberty transition needs distinct consideration. Such is the impact of puberty, especially on someone who is considering transitioning, that there is considerable debate as to whether an individual is mature enough to be able to make the decision. The pressure to transition before the effects of puberty must be immense - I mean from the individual on themselves not by others

Agreed the other subjects such as toilets are for a different thread.

Pre-puberty transition is hugely problematic IMHO 

To what extent can a ten year old or younger person give informed consent about major, life changing surgery and drug treatment.

Why? Pre-puberty transition rarely, if ever, involves surgery. It’s normally using drugs to delay puberty. Also, it’s not something where a kid wakes up one morning and decides to transition so they pop down the GPS office for some drugs. As well as needing parental permission, they’ll also need to undergo psychiatric counseling before they can start any drug program. 

Would you prefer forcing trans children to go through puberty first? Locking them into a body they don’t believe is theirs, and simultaneously doubting their ability to know what they feel. The effects of that are very real on their mental state. 

Nobody, children, parents, psychiatrists or doctors, enter into this lightly, and by using puberty delaying drugs, they do so in a way that’s reversible. 

It’s a dangerous path to ignore a child’s views because you don’t believe their old enough to recognize they are somehow different. 

Don't put words in my mouth, please.

I didn't say that the child's views should be ignored.  I asked to what extent can a child give informed consent?   

 Yes, there is, or at least should be, a long process and counselling etc but even some adults who have transitioned have regretted that decision.

I think that "recognising that they are somehow different" is a long, long way from informed consent.

As I said, it is problematic.

clb74 said:

Given me nothing but a headache this thread.
For me this woman has to compete in the womens event.
Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events.
Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years.
That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?