Sorry but Jackson has to go.

Scoham said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Scoham said:

Callumcafc said:

If you want to go the other way and put yesterday’s XI into a 4-4-2…

MacG
Matthews - Clare - Pearce - Famewo
Gilbey - Dobson - Morgan - CBT
Stockley - Washington

Same players doing the same things but I bet fans would give Jacko more time if he came out as said we are switching to 4-4-2 with the above personnel

He should do that when talking to the fans but have the team play the same way.

I still think it's hilarious that some people say we beat Crewe because we played 442.  Despite the manager and the players saying we didn't.

On the flip side one of the teams was post on the Google thing as a 442 with Lee up front and given as an example of nieve team selection. 

As a great man once said, it's a funny old game. 

Which Crewe game was that?

The home game.  Was it 2-0?

There is nothing wrong with the formation not being balanced. It is all about the players within it. My preference if I had the choice would be 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1  but we will probably all have different favourites as will different managers. True, some managers may be more pragmatic, look what they have or don't have and play a formation around that even if it is not their favoured one. It isn't that anybody is right or wrong, but Jacko does need to unlock it next season. He deserves a chance to do this. He knows how he wants to set up so he has to ensure we have the right players to make his formation work.

Anyone who watched the Lincoln home match sober knows Conor Washington had 4 great chances that day and Jayden Stockley had two opportunities as well. So even that game we had chances to be out of sight despite conceding a couple of poor goals. I said when JJ took over at Sunderland that if he got the Job he would end the season in credit but anyone who thought we would end up in the play offs hadn't been paying attention to the mandatory injuries we get every season for about 4 years; plus we lacked the midfield goal scorers that Aribo, Holmes, Fosu etc used to add to the team if the strikers/lone striker didn't score.

Goal luck to Mason Burstow when he sits on the bench for Chelsea's U23, next season or one of the Chelsea nursery teams other than Cafc, maybe the Dutch side that Chelsea own.

Billy said:

Give JJ a chance.! His first run of games in charge was the first real enjoyment I've had out of CAFC for years so in my world he deserves it just for that. And surely if Thomas backs him and buys him players he wants he'll do as well or better than whatever Adkins-style journeyman alternative we'd be in the market for. And if Thomas doesn't back whatever manager with minimum three or four decent signings who aren't (like the last lot) worse than what we've got then we're going nowhere anyhow, no argument.

Years? You didn't enjoy promotion under Bowyer or the first half of the championship season? 

soapboxsam said:

Anyone who watched the Lincoln home match sober knows Conor Washington had 4 great chances that day and Jayden Stockley had two opportunities as well. So even that game we had chances to be out of sight despite conceding a couple of poor goals. I said when JJ took over at Sunderland that if he got the Job he would end the season in credit but anyone who thought we would end up in the play offs hadn't been paying attention to the mandatory injuries we get every season for about 4 years; plus we lacked the midfield goal scorers that Aribo, Holmes, Fosu etc used to add to the team if the strikers/lone striker didn't score.

Goal luck to Mason Burstow when he sits on the bench for Chelsea's U23, next season or one of the Chelsea nursery teams other than Cafc, maybe the Dutch side that Chelsea own.

You're going to hate to find out who we start up front next season. 

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Garrymanilow said:

Cafc43v3r said:

For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?

For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it. 

We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left

This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them.  You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now.  All beat it the left and right are the other way round. 

Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.




The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:

Hamer
Solly - Morrison - Cort
Wagstaff - Stephens - Hollands - Jackson - Wiggins
Kermorgant - BWP


Compare that to 21/22 which is basically the same team but mirrored, as you say:

MacG
Clare - Lavelle - Purrington
Matthews - Gilbey - Dobson - Fraser - Blackett-Taylor
Stockley - Washington



Hamer -> MacG
Solly -> Purrington
Morrison -> Lavelle
Cort -> Clare
Wagstaff -> Blackett-Taylor
Stephens -> Fraser
Hollands -> Dobson
Jackson -> Gilbey
Wiggins -> Matthews
Kermorgant -> Stockley
BWP -> Washington

These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.

I think this is madness. Of the players listed I'd say the strikers are doing the same job and the central CB but that's about it. Hamer was a creative presence himself which MacG can't match. Stephens and Fraser might end up playing similarly if we ever see what Fraser offers but Hollands and Dobson are doing completely different jobs. Hollands was the more attacking of the two midfielders and was expected to provide goals, Dobson's job is to sit in front of the back four and not a great deal else. Wagstaff only started 9 league games so I don't know why you've included him over Green, likely because Green (25 starts) has never tracked back in his life so would make as good a WB as he would a swan, and Wiggins and Matthews couldn't be more different in terms of their roles. Wiggins had a huge creative burden and Matthews is far more focused on defending (in theory). I wouldn't compare Taylor (41 league starts, not Cort, 10) and Clare at all. I don't remember Taylor having the responsibility to overlap the wing back and drive the ball up the pitch. I would have remembered, because it would have been hilarious. As for Gilbey, his role is exclusively to raise Leuth's blood pressure, I can't see anything else being the case, but he's definitely not there to pull in and help the full back overlap while getting down the wing himself. These comparisons just don't match the reality of what we did that season, even if you could theoretically crowbar these players into that formation there's no way they're functionally being asked to do the same things

Garrymanilow said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Garrymanilow said:

Cafc43v3r said:

For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?

For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it. 

We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left

This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them.  You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now.  All beat it the left and right are the other way round. 

Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.




The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:

Hamer
Solly - Morrison - Cort
Wagstaff - Stephens - Hollands - Jackson - Wiggins
Kermorgant - BWP


Compare that to 21/22 which is basically the same team but mirrored, as you say:

MacG
Clare - Lavelle - Purrington
Matthews - Gilbey - Dobson - Fraser - Blackett-Taylor
Stockley - Washington



Hamer -> MacG
Solly -> Purrington
Morrison -> Lavelle
Cort -> Clare
Wagstaff -> Blackett-Taylor
Stephens -> Fraser
Hollands -> Dobson
Jackson -> Gilbey
Wiggins -> Matthews
Kermorgant -> Stockley
BWP -> Washington

These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.

I think this is madness. Of the players listed I'd say the strikers are doing the same job and the central CB but that's about it. Hamer was a creative presence himself which MacG can't match. Stephens and Fraser might end up playing similarly if we ever see what Fraser offers but Hollands and Dobson are doing completely different jobs. Hollands was the more attacking of the two midfielders and was expected to provide goals, Dobson's job is to sit in front of the back four and not a great deal else. Wagstaff only started 9 league games so I don't know why you've included him over Green, likely because Green (25 starts) has never tracked back in his life so would make as good a WB as he would a swan, and Wiggins and Matthews couldn't be more different in terms of their roles. Wiggins had a huge creative burden and Matthews is far more focused on defending (in theory). I wouldn't compare Taylor (41 league starts, not Cort, 10) and Clare at all. I don't remember Taylor having the responsibility to overlap the wing back and drive the ball up the pitch. I would have remembered, because it would have been hilarious. As for Gilbey, his role is exclusively to raise Leuth's blood pressure, I can't see anything else being the case, but he's definitely not there to pull in and help the full back overlap while getting down the wing himself. These comparisons just don't match the reality of what we did that season, even if you could theoretically crowbar these players into that formation there's no way they're functionally being asked to do the same things

Lol'd this post for the image of Danny Green as a swan! Please someone photoshop this. :-)

Years? You didn't enjoy promotion under Bowyer or the first half of the championship season? 

Ok yes you got me, I did. But that buzz when JJ took over and the team just came to life... not felt that since Powell's promotion season.

Garrymanilow said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Garrymanilow said:

Cafc43v3r said:

For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?

For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it. 

We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left

This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them.  You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now.  All beat it the left and right are the other way round. 

Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.




The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:

Hamer
Solly - Morrison - Cort
Wagstaff - Stephens - Hollands - Jackson - Wiggins
Kermorgant - BWP


Compare that to 21/22 which is basically the same team but mirrored, as you say:

MacG
Clare - Lavelle - Purrington
Matthews - Gilbey - Dobson - Fraser - Blackett-Taylor
Stockley - Washington



Hamer -> MacG
Solly -> Purrington
Morrison -> Lavelle
Cort -> Clare
Wagstaff -> Blackett-Taylor
Stephens -> Fraser
Hollands -> Dobson
Jackson -> Gilbey
Wiggins -> Matthews
Kermorgant -> Stockley
BWP -> Washington

These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.

I think this is madness. Of the players listed I'd say the strikers are doing the same job and the central CB but that's about it.

1. Hamer was a creative presence himself which MacG can't match.

2. Stephens and Fraser might end up playing similarly if we ever see what Fraser offers but Hollands and Dobson are doing completely different jobs. Hollands was the more attacking of the two midfielders and was expected to provide goals, Dobson's job is to sit in front of the back four and not a great deal else.

3. Wagstaff only started 9 league games so I don't know why you've included him over Green, likely because Green (25 starts) has never tracked back in his life so would make as good a WB as he would a swan, and

4. Wiggins and Matthews couldn't be more different in terms of their roles. Wiggins had a huge creative burden and Matthews is far more focused on defending (in theory).

5. I wouldn't compare Taylor (41 league starts, not Cort, 10) and Clare at all. I don't remember Taylor having the responsibility to overlap the wing back and drive the ball up the pitch. I would have remembered, because it would have been hilarious.

6. As for Gilbey, his role is exclusively to raise Leuth's blood pressure, I can't see anything else being the case, but he's definitely not there to pull in and help the full back overlap while getting down the wing himself.

These comparisons just don't match the reality of what we did that season, even if you could theoretically crowbar these players into that formation there's no way they're functionally being asked to do the same things

1. If your argument here is creativity, MacG has a couple of assists already this season. Is he as good as Hamer? No, but that's not the point I was making.

2. The combination of Stephens and Hollands is covered by the combination of Dobson and Fraser. I honestly put Fraser with Stephens because they are the better passers, although Dobson is no mug either. If it makes you feel more comfortable I can switch them and put Dobson and Stephens together (sit and pass from deep) with Hollands and Fraser (left footers, score a few) together?

3. I picked Wagstaff for no reason in particular - although he obviously was the better player... :-) You make a great joke about Danny Green however I'm sure half of this forum would have said the same thing about Corey Blackett-Taylor before he actually played there, wouldn't they? The fact is, he is contributing occasionally to the defensive side but his primary focus is getting down the wing, exactly as it was for Wagstaff/Green.

4. I'll refer back to point 1 on this one. The only reason Matthews is more defensively focused than Wiggins is because Wiggins was about four times the player. Just because the player is worse doesn't mean they not being asked to do similar things tactically. Look at the goal away at Wimbledon, Matthews has this in his locker but can't produce it often enough.

5. Taylor or Cort getting wide and overlapping the wing back would be funny, yes. The whole idea of overlapping centre backs would've been hilarious ten years ago so I don't disagree. Probably the toughest comparison I had to make.

6. Gilbey and Jackson have more similar roles than you might want to admit - they run themselves into the ground and contribute in both boxes. That's the theory anyway. Despite the song from his playing days, Jackson very rarely ran down the wing. He never had the pace for that. He sat tight, provided presence in the middle of the park, contributed a few goals and let Wiggins supply the width behind him.


None of this is sheer fantasy. I think it's a bit of an uncomfortable truth for some.

We’re sixth in the current form table (thanks, Statbank) just to add some context. Give Jacko a proper chance.

Dazzler21 said:

Billy said:

Give JJ a chance.! His first run of games in charge was the first real enjoyment I've had out of CAFC for years so in my world he deserves it just for that. And surely if Thomas backs him and buys him players he wants he'll do as well or better than whatever Adkins-style journeyman alternative we'd be in the market for. And if Thomas doesn't back whatever manager with minimum three or four decent signings who aren't (like the last lot) worse than what we've got then we're going nowhere anyhow, no argument.

Years? You didn't enjoy promotion under Bowyer or the first half of the championship season? 

Was just typing this out but seen you've  beaten me to it!

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Weegie Addick said:

We’re sixth in the current form table (thanks, Statbank) just to add some context. Give Jacko a proper chance.

Over how many games?

We've won 2 of our last 5 and 5 of our last 15.

Hard to believe that puts us near the top of any form table.

1?