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Olympics 2024
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Do we need to have arm length categories? As there's a natural advantage given when one boxer has a larger arm span than the other? How far do you want to go with this?MrOneLung said:I feel this boxing debate was a little derailed by the use of the word Trans, as this is not the issue here.
The issue is these women having a naturally occurring extremely high level , that exceeds the safety guidelines that the IBA use.
The IBA has a duty of care to the other boxers.
Just like they introduced weight categories, as a 6ft 6, 18 stone boxer has a naturally occurring advantage over a 5ft 2, 8 stone boxer.
Nothing illegal or unnatural about being that big, so why not let them fight the small boxer ?1 -
I think that would make it more black and white tbh, the biggest issue IMO is that we're deciding if a genetic woman is "too manly" to compete against other genetic women. Testosterone is the male hormone, but occurs in both sexes, same as Oestrogen, and obviously the levels vary in people.Gribbo said:
Only using his thread as a gauge tbh, but I've not seen much evidence of it on here. However it's been completely side tracked by the boxers with bollox subjectFriend Or Defoe said:
No, everyone is more outraged by that. This debate has a shade a of grey because the boxers aren't trans therefore there are more posts.Gribbo said:People seem more outraged by this than the convicted child rapist competing? Really hope his victim ain't a sports enthusiast and following the Olympics, having his name and face pop up on a relatively regular basis
I personally don't think it's right that someone born as a female, lives and identifies as a female, is not allowed to compete against other females because of the natural chemical makeup of their body. If they were doping, fine, if they were born a man and transitioned late on, go ahead, but at what point do we put the limits on? China had a 5'7 guy trying to play basketball against 7'4 Wembyana of France, should we ban him for being too tall and have a height limit in the sport?2 -
Daniel Wiffen appeared in the red wedding episode of Game of Thrones.
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Anyway, such god-given advantages has led to her losing 20% of her fights and only having a 10% KO record.
The fact she's coming into her prime at 25 rather than being dominant through puberty points to the advantage not being that overwhelming.1 -
There are also women with unnaturally high testosterone levels out there who don’t all of a sudden become world class athletes by default.
They are women and they deserve to be able to compete as women.3 -
I think that a person born female being told they aren't "female enough" is a really, really scary proposition.
I say this as someone that believes that people born male should be nowhere near female sports.
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Agreed. There might be one or two contrarians looking for an argument around rehabilitation. And others looking to goad the "lefties", into a barny, blah, blah.SELR_addicks said:Gribbo said:
Only using his thread as a gauge tbh, but I've not seen much evidence of it on here. However it's been completely side tracked by the boxers with bollox subjectFriend Or Defoe said:
No, everyone is more outraged by that. This debate has a shade a of grey because the boxers aren't trans therefore there are more posts.Gribbo said:People seem more outraged by this than the convicted child rapist competing? Really hope his victim ain't a sports enthusiast and following the Olympics, having his name and face pop up on a relatively regular basis
What's there to talk about? No one wishes he was competing in the games.
But most of us are singing from the "bloke's a stone cold wrong 'un" hymn sheet, that means things don't even need to be discussed tbh.
Particularly when it's clearly sort of balls ache the mods could do without and on a thread that's overwhelmingly about a sporting event.2 -
The number of challenges and referrals to the 'video referee' across a wide variety of sports is very disconcerting i m o .. just get on with the game .. has the fact that cash is now awarded to the winners/medallists changed the 'Olympic ethos' beyond recognition ?0
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The advantage gained from a naturally occurring trait? This argument doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny does it, if it did we’d have to have banned Michael Phelps from swimming and countless other athletes who have a genetic advantage over their competitors.MuttleyCAFC said:Well I would take it away from using that term but more focussing on the advantage gained.These women were born women, are women, and should be entitled to compete as women.3 -
In the old days, the TV coverage wasn't good enough to clearly show errors. Now it is, I don't think we can go back.Lincsaddick said:The number of challenges and referrals to the 'video referee' across a wide variety of sports is very disconcerting i m o .. just get on with the game .. has the fact that cash is now awarded to the winners/medallists changed the 'Olympic ethos' beyond recognition ?
I do like having an appeal system, as they have in hockey, and if you burn it early, then tough.0 - Sponsored links:
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Fucking disgraceful that nonce is allowed anywhere near professional sport. Vile.Gribbo said:People seem more outraged by this than the convicted child rapist competing? Really hope his victim ain't a sports enthusiast and following the Olympics, having his name and face pop up on a relatively regular basis5 -
Alcaraz beats Tommy Paul in a really good QF, where Paul choked when serving for the 2nd set.
Paul and his partner Fritz play Murray and Evans later on today. Those 2 sets will have taken some energy out of him, but he looked really good.1 -
I don't think comparing someone with long limbs to someone who failed a gender eligibility test as fair way of measuring genetic advantage.se9addick said:
The advantage gained from a naturally occurring trait? This argument doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny does it, if it did we’d have to have banned Michael Phelps from swimming and countless other athletes who have a genetic advantage over their competitors.MuttleyCAFC said:Well I would take it away from using that term but more focussing on the advantage gained.These women were born women, are women, and should be entitled to compete as women.1 -
Why not? Would it not just be the same arbitrary cut off based on pre determined bodily measurements? Who gets to decide what does and doesn’t constitute a woman?cafcpolo said:
I don't think comparing someone with long limbs to someone who failed a gender eligibility test as fair way of measuring genetic advantage.se9addick said:
The advantage gained from a naturally occurring trait? This argument doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny does it, if it did we’d have to have banned Michael Phelps from swimming and countless other athletes who have a genetic advantage over their competitors.MuttleyCAFC said:Well I would take it away from using that term but more focussing on the advantage gained.These women were born women, are women, and should be entitled to compete as women.
She was born a woman therefore she gets to compete as a woman, that should be the end of it.
We are in big trouble if we start telling women they aren’t womanly enough.3 -
Completely agree - as you've said, at what point are genetic advantages not allowed? Khelif has never identified as a man, she wasn't born with XY chromosones, so seems people are whipping up something over nothing.Callumcafc said:
Why not? Would it not just be the same arbitrary cut off based on pre determined bodily measurements? Who gets to decide what does and doesn’t constitute a woman?cafcpolo said:
I don't think comparing someone with long limbs to someone who failed a gender eligibility test as fair way of measuring genetic advantage.se9addick said:
The advantage gained from a naturally occurring trait? This argument doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny does it, if it did we’d have to have banned Michael Phelps from swimming and countless other athletes who have a genetic advantage over their competitors.MuttleyCAFC said:Well I would take it away from using that term but more focussing on the advantage gained.These women were born women, are women, and should be entitled to compete as women.
She was born a woman therefore she gets to compete as a woman, that should be the end of it.
We are in big trouble if we start telling women they aren’t womanly enough.
From the BBC:Steve Bunce, BBC Radio 5 Live boxing analyst
I think it has hurt Olympic boxing at a crucial time where its future is still being discussed. It's an absolute disaster.
What's interesting is in the build up to the fight, some of her old opponents, good fighters, world champions and European champions, have said [Khelif] is not a cheat.
She's not a devastating puncher, that is only her fifth stoppage.
Carini, I feel for her absolutely, but you have to feel a little bit for Khelif, she's stuck in the middle of something here that's absolutely devastating and it's not over yet.
I think the bit in bold is the most interesting bit.
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That sailing is real edge of the seat stuff. Well hanging over the side of the boat stuff anyway. They keep getting becalmed around the cape of no hope, well the marker buoy at any rate, no rate at all in fact.
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GB crews seem to have some antipathy to getting the rate over 40. Glover's race was very winnable.MuttleyCAFC said:That could have gone either way I think. Hard luck to the girls.0 -
Nothing wrong with a little bit of extra testosterone, just ask this fella ......
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So, favourite Olympian so far?
Honourable mention to the Pommel Horse guy:
https://x.com/DogsNDemocrats/status/1818199852267803089
But mine is between two people in the shooting.
There's the guy who didn't bother with any of the lenses etc, and won a silver with his hand in his pocket:
https://x.com/TheFigen_/status/1818975842640302399
and the Korean who has an awesome stone cold assassin look about her:
https://x.com/Joshdaddy_SG/status/1818318235378561410
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I prefer the Turkish chap, that South Korean woman is trying WAY too hard...North Lower Neil said:So, favourite Olympian so far?
Honourable mention to the Pommel Horse guy:
https://x.com/DogsNDemocrats/status/1818199852267803089
But mine is between two people in the shooting.
There's the guy who didn't bother with any of the lenses etc, and won a silver with his hand in his pocket:
https://x.com/TheFigen_/status/1818975842640302399
and the Korean who has an awesome stone cold assassin look about her:
https://x.com/Joshdaddy_SG/status/18183182353785614101 - Sponsored links:
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It was always the endgame.Huskaris said:I think that a person born female being told they aren't "female enough" is a really, really scary proposition.
I say this as someone that believes that people born male should be nowhere near female sports.
It's actually slightly humorous because essentially they're proving sex itself isn't binary. Which is what they were fighting against in the first place.1 -
Be careful talking about "they." People who have concerns around gender recognition aren't all some united Daily Mail fascist boogeyman that The Guardian will no doubt be peddling today. This is an incredibly complex issue that actually has a lot of women on the left concerned as well.SELR_addicks said:
It was always the endgame.Huskaris said:I think that a person born female being told they aren't "female enough" is a really, really scary proposition.
I say this as someone that believes that people born male should be nowhere near female sports.
It's actually slightly humorous because essentially they're proving sex itself isn't binary. Which is what they were fighting against in the first place.
Naturally, being men, we have the right to tell them what to think of course!
I have to say that I am going to do a bit more research on this, having seen the people who are agreeing with me so far, I might be wrong on this one.6 -
It's not about being womanly enough or deciding what constitutes being a woman. She may have been born a woman, but is there more to it? We certainly don't know.jacob_CAFC said:
Completely agree - as you've said, at what point are genetic advantages not allowed? Khelif has never identified as a man, she wasn't born with XY chromosones, so seems people are whipping up something over nothing.Callumcafc said:
Why not? Would it not just be the same arbitrary cut off based on pre determined bodily measurements? Who gets to decide what does and doesn’t constitute a woman?cafcpolo said:
I don't think comparing someone with long limbs to someone who failed a gender eligibility test as fair way of measuring genetic advantage.se9addick said:
The advantage gained from a naturally occurring trait? This argument doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny does it, if it did we’d have to have banned Michael Phelps from swimming and countless other athletes who have a genetic advantage over their competitors.MuttleyCAFC said:Well I would take it away from using that term but more focussing on the advantage gained.These women were born women, are women, and should be entitled to compete as women.
She was born a woman therefore she gets to compete as a woman, that should be the end of it.
We are in big trouble if we start telling women they aren’t womanly enough.
From the BBC:Steve Bunce, BBC Radio 5 Live boxing analyst
I think it has hurt Olympic boxing at a crucial time where its future is still being discussed. It's an absolute disaster.
What's interesting is in the build up to the fight, some of her old opponents, good fighters, world champions and European champions, have said [Khelif] is not a cheat.
She's not a devastating puncher, that is only her fifth stoppage.
Carini, I feel for her absolutely, but you have to feel a little bit for Khelif, she's stuck in the middle of something here that's absolutely devastating and it's not over yet.
I think the bit in bold is the most interesting bit.
Going on about genetic advantages yet not knowing what hers is. It's definitely not higher levels of testosterone, the IBA said that. What they have done is banned her for failing a gender eligibility test based on something else. If they considered her potentially dangerous to other competitors then so should the IOC.2 -
Advertising on point on this thread...
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Canoe slalom.
19 yr old Frenchman going in the final. Slight advantage as he trains on this course EVERY DAY for the past 3 years.
Hardly fair now is it. Should have a new / difference course for the Olympics surely.0 -
What were the results? Your posting history is a little ambiguous on this 🤣Leroy Ambrose said:Advertising on point on this thread...1 -
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Mens Kayak Slalom has been fantastic, just Joe Clark the top qualifier to go for Team GB0
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Ends up 5th after a bit of a nightmare between gates 6-80
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This is a non-issue, surely?
Born a woman, competes in women's boxing. Unless she's intersex (a la Caster Semenya, when it's a much more difficult decision) then she has no case to answer.
For a parallel, Chris Boardman was measured as having LOW testosterone for a male, so you could argue that he had a natural disadvantage, and competed in a sport where testosterone is routinely abused by men to give them an unnatural advantage.2
