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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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Callumcafc said:Six league games lost after 25 in charge.
I really can’t get behind any calls to sack another manager when he stopped the bleeding post Holden & Appleton.
If this losing run continues much longer maybe there’s a conversation to have approaching Christmas.1 -
I did post some concerns when he was appointed - must get buy-in, players must respond to his pretty unique style, and things need to be going well. I don't think we can tick any of those at the moment.
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I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move2
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eaststandmike said:Callumcafc said:Six league games lost after 25 in charge.
I really can’t get behind any calls to sack another manager when he stopped the bleeding post Holden & Appleton.
If this losing run continues much longer maybe there’s a conversation to have approaching Christmas.
Yep, what is the xg on being served chicken instead of turkey.
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thenewbie said:Leuth said:I'm usually one to offer reserve and loyalty when it comes to managers, but I think Jones will be gone within 2 months, with us in or near the relegation zone
It will take a really catastrophic run of form to get him sacked before Christmas and as bad as last night was I'm hoping that was the absolute depths and we'll be if nothing else "less bad."
It could very easily be 4 straight losses after Saturday. I'm not saying Jones out, I just genuinely don't know what we can expect to happen to change our fortunes.2 -
Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move0
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Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move
I honestly don't doubt that his wife wanting to move up north was a factor but I think the main thing was that he's getting towards the end of his career and Birmingham were offering him silly money.1 -
Croydon said:thenewbie said:Leuth said:I'm usually one to offer reserve and loyalty when it comes to managers, but I think Jones will be gone within 2 months, with us in or near the relegation zone
It will take a really catastrophic run of form to get him sacked before Christmas and as bad as last night was I'm hoping that was the absolute depths and we'll be if nothing else "less bad."
It could very easily be 4 straight losses after Saturday. I'm not saying Jones out, I just genuinely don't know what we can expect to happen to change our fortunes.
Spending a few quid and keeping your leading scorer would be a help(this is not a criticism of your post btw).
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Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move
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I think he's got he summer wrong and it will be a long, hard road now.
He's tried to build for us to be direct but he hasn't signed the big, strong strikers he needs, so the ball just keeps coming back. And he can't change the style to be more footballing because we don't have the width, or the midfielders who can play on the half-turn, or the strikers who can drop deep and link up play. The recruitment has failed and now things are falling apart unless the team are playing at 120% effort, which apparently is not sustainable.
It's a problem of his making and one he needs to find a fix for.
I also think his comments about Cardiff are a big part of the problem and have obviously hit the squad's motivation and buy-in quite heavily - another thing he needs to own and sort out.
But I'd have less faith in another manager coming in and doing a job, because this is a very unbalanced squad with limited options for tactical change.3 - Sponsored links:
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Plenty of good posts here that I agree with in part or wholly. As so often @AFKABartram catches my mood and that of so many others.
If I had the chance to interview Methven again (fat chance) I would ask him the following questions, which of course he would deflect at best:
1.Clearly Jones demanded classic “managerial” control before signing up. Most of us were happy you agreed. However when he decided he wanted to shift May on, did you or others interrogate him over this mother of all big calls?
2. Having agreed that he could shift May on, how quickly did you agree on a plan to replace him?3. Is Ahadme the most expensive sigining in the window? Who shortlisted him? How happy was Jones with him as a choice?4. The week before the Blackpool game the mood in the camp was apparently harmonious, as you’d expect from a team sitting 3rd in the table. What happened that week to turn them into the team of clueless strangers we saw against Blackpool?5. Specifically did you ask Jones why he dropped Mitchell?6. Mitchell has claimed that he received no explanation from the manager as to why he was dropped. Is that correct and if so do you consider this to be adequate management.?
7. while all managers want more than they get from the window, were there any specific areas of concern NJ expressed after the window closed? Could those concerns have been addressed with a loan?
i am definitely in the camp that says constantly churning managers is insane. I was in favour of giving him a long contract and very happy that we seemed to back him, early, in the window. But last night looked and felt as bad as the last days of Appleton. I dont understand how it could turn so bad so quickly. I’d have a more imformed opinion if I knew the answers to the above questions.5 -
Chunes said:I think he's got he summer wrong and it will be a long, hard road now.
He's tried to build for us to be direct but he hasn't signed the big, strong strikers he needs, so the ball just keeps coming back. And he can't change the style to be more footballing because we don't have the width, or the midfielders who can play on the half-turn, or the strikers who can drop deep and link up play. The recruitment has failed and now things are falling apart unless the team are playing at 120% effort, which apparently is not sustainable.
It's a problem of his making and one he needs to find a fix for.
I also think his comments about Cardiff are a big part of the problem and have obviously hit the squad's motivation and buy-in quite heavily - another thing he needs to own and sort out.
But I'd have less faith in another manager coming in and doing a job, because this is a very unbalanced squad with limited options for tactical change.
We've struggled for the first couple of months, managed to pick up a couple of wins, and our season has always hinged on him being the one to lead the line once he returns - I've never liked that approach, even when people on here have wanting him involved in the First Team as soon as possible for the last couple of weeks... Think its a lot to pin on him, and even in his short career within the First Team, he himself has shown that he can struggle to get involved / out muscled by experienced defenders.0 -
@PragueAddick I think CM's answers would be that he doesn't get involved on the playing side. Whether that's true or not is up for debate but I certainly hope it is true. He isn't a football man and I don't want non football people questioning the manager/coach about the dropping of individual players. Your May questions are more relevant for him because that is more of a business decision.
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Remember the time Belgium couldn’t form a government for 18 months and everything was absolutely fine? Let’s sack Nathan and not replace him. The players can either work as a democracy or go full Lord of the Flies, but either way I reckon we’ll improve.8
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Bolton fans wanted Evatt out two weeks ago, he’d taken them as far as he could and was struggling with a hangover from the playoff final.
Now they’ve just won three games back to back 5-2 0-2 and 2-4. And they look likely to be the Bolton we all expected them to be.
Sometimes sticking with a manager is the right decision.16 -
Bedsaddick said:Callumcafc said:MrOneLung said:Covered End said:Callumcafc said:Six league games lost after 25 in charge.
I really can’t get behind any calls to sack another manager when he stopped the bleeding post Holden & Appleton.
If this losing run continues much longer maybe there’s a conversation to have approaching Christmas.
Why did they score 3 times from 0.56 xG against us and not anybody else??? Because we’re Charlton and we’re cursed.
With the quality & quantity of chances they created last night (it wasn’t very good), Bristol Rovers would score three goals in a game once every two years.
They are in trouble themselves long term with those kinds of numbers. Which makes the fact they did it last night against us even more depressing.1 -
Sacking him now would be pointless - he stabilised us and has given us a better shape and a style of play - albeit really ugly and predictable at the moment.
Transfers before were handled by Andy Scott - the fans hated that as he was getting players the manager probably didn't want
Transfers now seem to be handled by Nathan - the fans hate that because he's seemingly just getting the band back together and CURRENTLY looking a bit like a one trick pony.
I think we need to wrestle some of the control back and go somewhere in between. Have Nathan saying the "style" of player he wants and have Andy Scott and the recruitment team look for a list of players that fit the mould. Then evaluate them individually and scout them properly. Rather than giving Nathan carte-blanche to select the players.
That's how many clubs operate.....
As I see it at the moment we are too defensive. The wing-backs are full backs who can get forward - whereas what we need for it to be more attacking is to have 2 wingers who can drop in to defend. Subtle difference. The players may be more capable of the role but it might be the instructions that are the problem.
And a midfield that has a bit of flair and creativity and can get crosses in the box. Gassan needs crosses to thrive - we got a few in the box against Stevenage but Gassan wasn't playing. Then last night we supplied absolutely fuck all for him. Again.
We can be solid and unspectacular if it gets results but at the moment we have the worst of both worlds. We are flaky and boring. This is not entertaining
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Swisdom said:Sacking him now would be pointless - he stabilised us and has given us a better shape and a style of play - albeit really ugly and predictable at the moment.
Transfers before were handled by Andy Scott - the fans hated that as he was getting players the manager probably didn't want
Transfers now seem to be handled by Nathan - the fans hate that because he's seemingly just getting the band back together and CURRENTLY looking a bit like a one trick pony.
I think we need to wrestle some of the control back and go somewhere in between. Have Nathan saying the "style" of player he wants and have Andy Scott and the recruitment team look for a list of players that fit the mould. Then evaluate them individually and scout them properly. Rather than giving Nathan carte-blanche to select the players.
That's how many clubs operate.....
As I see it at the moment we are too defensive. The wing-backs are full backs who can get forward - whereas what we need for it to be more attacking is to have 2 wingers who can drop in to defend. Subtle difference. The players may be more capable of the role but it might be the instructions that are the problem.
And a midfield that has a bit of flair and creativity and can get crosses in the box. Gassan needs crosses to thrive - we got a few in the box against Stevenage but Gassan wasn't playing. Then last night we supplied absolutely fuck all for him. Again.
We can be solid and unspectacular if it gets results but at the moment we have the worst of both worlds. We are flaky and boring. This is not entertaining0 -
fenaddick said:@PragueAddick I think CM's answers would be that he doesn't get involved on the playing side. Whether that's true or not is up for debate but I certainly hope it is true. He isn't a football man and I don't want non football people questioning the manager/coach about the dropping of individual players. Your May questions are more relevant for him because that is more of a business decision.0
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I wonder what it would take for Jones to be fired on Saturday. I reckon a 6 goal defeat with a red card or two and a sideline confrontation between players and coaching staff would do the trick1
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Not that I'm hoping for that, gosh no!0
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You’re a rascal @Leuth1
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Honestly, it feels like an implosion, and one that could reach its endpoint surprisingly quickly. I've lost count of posts saying stuff like 'there's obviously a massive dressing room issue and they hate each other and the players aren't carrying out his instructions......but it's too soon to change, I support him!'3
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Most nonsensical trope in football is that stability breeds success. That's putting the cart before the horse.
Success breeds stability. Committing yourself to a dud of a manager because a phallanx of duds preceded him is wrongheaded.
Even after our first three games I said fans would be calling for his head by November. You cannot win promotion playing knife-edge football. Every game was being decided by a scrappy goal (Bolton arguably aside but we were hardly overwhelmingly dominant, even in our best performance - more stolidly resilient). If you were reading performances and not results, you'd see a mid-table, arguably just below mid-table level of performance across those games. What has followed has not surprised me one bit. I'm not making a knee jerk reaction after three losses, this was all evident after our three early wins and what came before.
The bizarre thing about NJ's style of play (I cringe even using the word 'style' in the same sentence as Jones), is that we could just as easily beat Birmingham 1-0 this weekend, as we can narrowly lose to Bristol Rovers. I'm onside with those who say that we played dreadfully last night but objectively we were also genuinely a bit unlucky. That's not to vindicate Jones in any way at all. In fact, it is the opposite. It is a damning indictment of Jones' regressive, nihilistic management. Every game will be ground down to gilt edged chance. He thinks he can spin the roulette wheel and land on red 46 times each season. Whenever it lands on black he blames anything and everything. If you have been listening to Jones' post match interviews, he has quite literally bemoaned the refs not giving us 7 (SEVEN), in his words 'stonewall penalties' this season. It's cringe listening to this nonsense.
I was extremely skeptical of Jones at the end of last season. Sure, his style of play was perfect to avoid the Appleton slump. He got a couple of ugly, unexpected early wins. What followed was a level of dross that was almost on a par with Nigel Adkins football. We looked forward to surging up the table in our final easy run of 8 games against the weakest teams in the league. With better players than we now have, he managed to secure 9 points, the only win coming from a brilliantly inspired Alfie May performance. The side had been coached and instructed by Jones for three months and it was turgid.
Obviously he deserved time over the summer to have a pre-season, bring in his own players and put his imprint on the side but I was extremely skeptical given what had preceded the summer. When he forced May out (make no mistake, he absolutely was to blame for that), because he wouldn't fit his style, it was the ultimate red flag. If, as a league 1 manager, you cannot find a place for the league's top scorer and a hard working, industrious, whole hearted player like May, then you are absolutely, unequivocally flawed. It was not May's fault he could not fit NJ's system, it was the system that was at fault. If May was playing for us this season he would be struggling. There's no player who can be objectively judged based on NJ's style. None of those players deserve the stick they're getting because no footballer can look good playing this way. It is a style absolutely devoid of coherence, planning, strategy. There's nothing there. Though he is undoubtedly a better player than what we've seen, it still remains the case that NJ sanctioned the sale of May for £750K and bought Ahadme for £1m. That alone is the craziest decision imaginable. We had no leverage in negotiations because Jones wanted him out. Brum paid £10m on a striker and bought the league's top scorer for £750K. What a shambles. Jones is to blame. The board need to have a serious think about themselves but they fell for Jones' snake oil salesman routine and at the urging of most fans agreed to back their man and back his plan. He also said he would never make a loan signing, as we want to develop our own talent, which is a lovely soundbite and simultaneously, wildly stupid. Our player of the year, is all too often, a loan signing. It's ridiculously stubborn to close off that avenue without seriously running the rule over possible loan talent. Of course, in the end he did make a loan signing on and lo and behold it was another member of the class of 2019 from Luton. You know a manager is hopeless when their only recourse in the transfer market is to sign players who did well for them 5 years ago. Unreal.
We're now 8 games into the season and we've seen not one iota of change to the style of play Jones plays. If he were tinkering with the style just a bit I might give him some relief but honestly we've had 8 months of this crap. After the last game he said we needed to get back to basics. I'm sorry, but how basic can we get? What fundamentals does he think we can revert to? We weren't exactly playing expansive football that needed reining in. Does he want us to pass the ball more? Fair enough, I can get onside with that but what would he mean by going back to passing the ball? We never have under Jones.
The football is utterly turgid. Opposition teams have figured us out very quickly which means the roulette wheel is weighted against us now, it's not even a near evens chance of winning games. Furthermore the players have never looked interested. Some fans argue that things have changed with their mentality. I honestly saw very little pleasure in the body language or comments from that dressing room even after three games. They all sounded fed up with the football they were being asked to play. If Jones' tactics are high press (not seen much lately), then it's going to get worse as the season rolls on and the players get more tired. As the inevitable lack of opportunities continues, you get even more disheartened as a player. There is an outside chance we beat Brum as the players will be motivated to play the runaway superstars of the division. It is a big game and you can raise your energy for such matches which might swing the dial towards a horrible, ugly 1-0 win but no player will have the psychology to put in the same performance v Exeter for example, so we can just as easily lose those games 1-0.
Jones has to go. There are no signs from him of having any idea how to change anything. His football has been abhorrent to watch, it has no hopes of progressing, it has no hopes of clicking. His success at Luton was the aberration. His failures elsewhere are forming a far more consistent pattern. Holding on to Jones will do us no favours. A new manager will struggle with the lack of creativity in this squad. There's nothing we can do about that until January but if anyone thinks giving more funds to Jones to keep building this squad in his squalid fashion is a good idea, I seriously don't know what you have to watch to change your mind. A new manager, pretty much anyone, will immediately sign some attacking width and a creative talent in the middle of the park. Jones won't. He doesn't even think we need it. He just says we need to be better in those areas. That's not easy, when he doesn't seem to want our midfield to ever have possession.
This has been 8 months of failure. Not Appleton levels of failure but if he's the yardstick for success then we're in trouble. Fans were gushing about Jones because of how bad things got under Appleton and started to myopically believe that his marginal improvements made him some sort of League 1 deity. In truth, we've seen 8 months of terrible football from a clueless, incompetent manager who has ruined our squad, forced our best player out and delivered the most turgid football we've seen since Adkins. He should go now. Stability does not breed success. It is success that breeds stability and if you think keeping Jones is the answer then you might be just as stubborn as the man himself.19 -
Or, what they^ said, yeah4
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Callumcafc said:Bolton fans wanted Evatt out two weeks ago, he’d taken them as far as he could and was struggling with a hangover from the playoff final.
Now they’ve just won three games back to back 5-2 0-2 and 2-4. And they look likely to be the Bolton we all expected them to be.
Sometimes sticking with a manager is the right decision.
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Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move1
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shine166 said:Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move0
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shine166 said:Pelling1993 said:I know people keep blaming Jones for getting rid of May, but wasn't he leaving regardless? Thought the wife stuff was the main reason for the move3
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Why are we so impatient as a fan group keeping on sacking the manager will get as no where as the recent past has shown us
NJ came in last season and stopped the rot we had an impressive start this season and his reputation on here was great.Now after just nine games people are calling for him to be sacked. I personally think he will turn this round and still expect us to make the playoffs let’s all chill and see what happens5