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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
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Yes agree, we’ve definitely had a reality check, at least we are in the position to have found out!!, hopefully see this season out safely and learn our lessons from it.🤞crookester said:
I think that's the case but it's not that odd really. After the way we started, it seemed like we had done great business but in hindsight we were punching above our weight. A reality check has followed and, provided we do stay up, I fully expect better quality to be recruited.Sword65pf said:Probably a strange thing to say, as a fan base I think a lot of us have been caught out as to how much better the championship is compared to the last time, I wonder if NJ/ the club have underestimated also?, I know a bit odd if they have but the summer signings really now look like real gambles. I can definitely sympathise with the style of play issue going forward, but NJ says he knows it needs to get better, so let’s see if he does what he says he needs to do, he deserves the opportunity, if it doesn’t improve then he will probably deserve the tin tack.1 -
I'm so confused why "fans" are being so negative.
Can one of them name a team/club or alternative manager that has done something that we should be doing or have done?0 -
Bit harsh there Steve, he spends a lot of money travelling away to not be a fan. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...2 -
SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...
Stupid comment.
Does more to bring the away fan experience to hundreds of our fanbase who cant go to games, and his videos are full of enthusiasm and love for the club.
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I think the beliefs that we've overperformed for our experience/budget in this league and we play generally unattractive, grindy hateball can both be true at the same time.
NJ has done a good job here - of that, there is no question. He stabilised us in L1 and then got us promoted through the playoffs. However, I have consistently felt that the tolerance of both his tactics and style of play from a fan perspective will only be enough whilst we get results. Even when we went on our run last season after losing at home to Crawley, we were usually only winning by 1 - you could probably figure out the average winning margin, but I'd wager it was, from a data perspective, less than 1.5. This season, you could argue the same - just probably with more draws and losses obviously, but the margin of our results was the same. As a fan, it feels incredibly volatile and unpredictable, because things are played at such tight margins. It's a results-driven for NJ, the manager, as he loses his job if results dip, but he drags the game to such tight defensive percentages that his teams can overperform.
When you are winning or are broadly on an upward trend in the table, it feels great. Another tight win or battle of a draw. It wasn't pretty on the eye, but we get the points and the football performance is forgotten. When we're in the trenches of poor form, it feels really awful. After moving up a division, we were always likely to score much less goals against significantly better defences. This is highlighted by us bypassing and not playing through midfield, and has been a fairly common trait of ours for a while, and the only real shining light there in Carey feels like the minutes have caught up with him at the business end of this season. Our captain doesn't want the ball nor has any quality, and we've had lack of form/injuries affect the others. That lack of midfield presence drastically impacts our forward line, who want to be fed the ball from our midfield with quality to succeed. The failed WB/Winger experiments hamper us massively, as it becomes a rarer position to recruit for - it feels like wingers coming through the game nowadays are more used to having a fullback behind them, whilst those players who call themselves wingbacks are normally fullbacks who can occasionally push forward.
Suffice to say, NJ has done a good job, but his rigidity over the way he generally sets his team to start games and the growing niche of recruitment for those playing roles feels difficult to swallow when results don't go our way. This was always going to be the difficulty of this season, because as much as staying in the league at all costs was the target, it always meant NJ would double down on the playing style he believes in and in a league where budgets are, quite honestly, pretty bonkers.
Regardless of how this season ends for us, we will likely stick with him. I think we stay up, hopefully invest again in quality and THEN we judge after the opening 10 games. In the less likely outcome (imho) that we go down, we'd be looking to bounce back with a squad that should have enough and assess similarly. NJ puts the blame at the door of player quality when about our football, but I'd argue it is by design if he continues to persist with the variant of 5-3-2 he plays.
It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what another experienced Championship manager might do with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and our squad. I like to think of a world were TC and Apter played on opposite wings with fullbacks behind them. Maybe there's a natural naivety to that where we just get smashed every week. However, things like LJones needing 2 CBs around him to get the best from him necessitates that decision. I'm no expert - just the thought of another manager with these players yielding "better" results with different tactics intrigues me.
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Weird postSteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...9 -
That's fair opinion to have. Do you have a suggestion of another manager or another club we could use as a blue print in our position?th0rryy said:I think the beliefs that we've overperformed for our experience/budget in this league and we play generally unattractive, grindy hateball can both be true at the same time.
NJ has done a good job here - of that, there is no question. He stabilised us in L1 and then got us promoted through the playoffs. However, I have consistently felt that the tolerance of both his tactics and style of play from a fan perspective will only be enough whilst we get results. Even when we went on our run last season after losing at home to Crawley, we were usually only winning by 1 - you could probably figure out the average winning margin, but I'd wager it was, from a data perspective, less than 1.5. This season, you could argue the same - just probably with more draws and losses obviously, but the margin of our results was the same. As a fan, it feels incredibly volatile and unpredictable, because things are played at such tight margins. It's a results-driven for NJ, the manager, as he loses his job if results dip, but he drags the game to such tight defensive percentages that his teams can overperform.
When you are winning or are broadly on an upward trend in the table, it feels great. Another tight win or battle of a draw. It wasn't pretty on the eye, but we get the points and the football performance is forgotten. When we're in the trenches of poor form, it feels really awful. After moving up a division, we were always likely to score much less goals against significantly better defences. This is highlighted by us bypassing and not playing through midfield, and has been a fairly common trait of ours for a while, and the only real shining light there in Carey feels like the minutes have caught up with him at the business end of this season. Our captain doesn't want the ball nor has any quality, and we've had lack of form/injuries affect the others. That lack of midfield presence drastically impacts our forward line, who want to be fed the ball from our midfield with quality to succeed. The failed WB/Winger experiments hamper us massively, as it becomes a rarer position to recruit for - it feels like wingers coming through the game nowadays are more used to having a fullback behind them, whilst those players who call themselves wingbacks are normally fullbacks who can occasionally push forward.
Suffice to say, NJ has done a good job, but his rigidity over the way he generally sets his team to start games and the growing niche of recruitment for those playing roles feels difficult to swallow when results don't go our way. This was always going to be the difficulty of this season, because as much as staying in the league at all costs was the target, it always meant NJ would double down on the playing style he believes in and in a league where budgets are, quite honestly, pretty bonkers.
Regardless of how this season ends for us, we will likely stick with him. I think we stay up, hopefully invest again in quality and THEN we judge after the opening 10 games. In the less likely outcome (imho) that we go down, we'd be looking to bounce back with a squad that should have enough and assess similarly. NJ puts the blame at the door of player quality when about our football, but I'd argue it is by design if he continues to persist with the variant of 5-3-2 he plays.
It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what another experienced Championship manager might do with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and our squad. I like to think of a world were TC and Apter played on opposite wings with fullbacks behind them. Maybe there's a natural naivety to that where we just get smashed every week. However, things like LJones needing 2 CBs around him to get the best from him necessitates that decision. I'm no expert - just the thought of another manager with these players yielding "better" results with different tactics intrigues me.
Every football fan in the Championship moans about how bad their team is
Its not mentioned but NJ got us promotion a season earlier than planned didn't he?0 -
Last season it only took a small tweak for us to go from losing against Bristol Rovers and Crawley and being pretty unwatchable to going on an incredible run where we lost 4 games in 30 and got promoted. Jones kept saying we were so close to being a good team and he figured out what it was that was missing and made it happen without even bringing in new players. This season he hasn't been saying that but he's talked a lot about building a base level and then adding quality. I think earlier in the season he thought it could be worked in with the players he had but he's started talking about personnel again like he did in his first half season. He got those personnel then and took us up, I'm hopeful that we'll stay up and this summer he'll be able to make fewer, better additions. Each time he's had work to do he's identified what it is and done it, I don't think people should be so quick to write off the ability for this team to go from the way they are to much better based on what we've seen before. Some midfield additions to create a better attacking and controlled unit alongside the strong defence we already have and it could be very different.13
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We’d be relegated. The calls for this at a few points this season were just silly. Our whole side is built around being good defensively, we don’t have the defence for a back 4 because we’ve recruited for 2 years to be a back 3 team. Jones is one of the best middle centre backs in the league, in a back 4 he’d still be good but not as good at all as he is now. Bell is brilliant in a 3, not in a 2. Same with Ramsay. We’ve just signed Sichenje who again has the attributes perfectly suited to a 3. The 3 at the back is going nowhereth0rryy said:I think the beliefs that we've overperformed for our experience/budget in this league and we play generally unattractive, grindy hateball can both be true at the same time.
NJ has done a good job here - of that, there is no question. He stabilised us in L1 and then got us promoted through the playoffs. However, I have consistently felt that the tolerance of both his tactics and style of play from a fan perspective will only be enough whilst we get results. Even when we went on our run last season after losing at home to Crawley, we were usually only winning by 1 - you could probably figure out the average winning margin, but I'd wager it was, from a data perspective, less than 1.5. This season, you could argue the same - just probably with more draws and losses obviously, but the margin of our results was the same. As a fan, it feels incredibly volatile and unpredictable, because things are played at such tight margins. It's a results-driven for NJ, the manager, as he loses his job if results dip, but he drags the game to such tight defensive percentages that his teams can overperform.
When you are winning or are broadly on an upward trend in the table, it feels great. Another tight win or battle of a draw. It wasn't pretty on the eye, but we get the points and the football performance is forgotten. When we're in the trenches of poor form, it feels really awful. After moving up a division, we were always likely to score much less goals against significantly better defences. This is highlighted by us bypassing and not playing through midfield, and has been a fairly common trait of ours for a while, and the only real shining light there in Carey feels like the minutes have caught up with him at the business end of this season. Our captain doesn't want the ball nor has any quality, and we've had lack of form/injuries affect the others. That lack of midfield presence drastically impacts our forward line, who want to be fed the ball from our midfield with quality to succeed. The failed WB/Winger experiments hamper us massively, as it becomes a rarer position to recruit for - it feels like wingers coming through the game nowadays are more used to having a fullback behind them, whilst those players who call themselves wingbacks are normally fullbacks who can occasionally push forward.
Suffice to say, NJ has done a good job, but his rigidity over the way he generally sets his team to start games and the growing niche of recruitment for those playing roles feels difficult to swallow when results don't go our way. This was always going to be the difficulty of this season, because as much as staying in the league at all costs was the target, it always meant NJ would double down on the playing style he believes in and in a league where budgets are, quite honestly, pretty bonkers.
Regardless of how this season ends for us, we will likely stick with him. I think we stay up, hopefully invest again in quality and THEN we judge after the opening 10 games. In the less likely outcome (imho) that we go down, we'd be looking to bounce back with a squad that should have enough and assess similarly. NJ puts the blame at the door of player quality when about our football, but I'd argue it is by design if he continues to persist with the variant of 5-3-2 he plays.
It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what another experienced Championship manager might do with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and our squad. I like to think of a world were TC and Apter played on opposite wings with fullbacks behind them. Maybe there's a natural naivety to that where we just get smashed every week. However, things like LJones needing 2 CBs around him to get the best from him necessitates that decision. I'm no expert - just the thought of another manager with these players yielding "better" results with different tactics intrigues me.If we played Apter and TC on the wings in a different shape, neither of them are going to have consistent output at this level. They just aren’t that good, Apter is struggling in the league below is this kind of formation. So we would concede more goals by changing to a back 4 and we would barely score any more than we do now. And if people expect us to sign wingers with pace and consistent end product, good luck finding them at a price we can afford.0 -
Spot on Steve.SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...
Followed Charlton Athletic my whole life to start a YouTube channel one day. It's all coming together.
Fkn hell 😂
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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the 3 vs 4 at the back - I just feel that the defensive solidity wouldn't entirely be lost and the capability of those players (and others) to play as a 4 wouldn't immediately guarantee relegation. The point is void until such time that NJ isn't here (he ain't for changin') - but again, I point to the thought experiment of another manager picking the team if he wasn't. Just think it's not quite as you suggest, whilst still recognising the broad effectiveness of our defense and NJ generally.NabySarr said:
We’d be relegated. The calls for this at a few points this season were just silly. Our whole side is built around being good defensively, we don’t have the defence for a back 4 because we’ve recruited for 2 years to be a back 3 team. Jones is one of the best middle centre backs in the league, in a back 4 he’d still be good but not as good at all as he is now. Bell is brilliant in a 3, not in a 2. Same with Ramsay. We’ve just signed Sichenje who again has the attributes perfectly suited to a 3. The 3 at the back is going nowhereth0rryy said:I think the beliefs that we've overperformed for our experience/budget in this league and we play generally unattractive, grindy hateball can both be true at the same time.
NJ has done a good job here - of that, there is no question. He stabilised us in L1 and then got us promoted through the playoffs. However, I have consistently felt that the tolerance of both his tactics and style of play from a fan perspective will only be enough whilst we get results. Even when we went on our run last season after losing at home to Crawley, we were usually only winning by 1 - you could probably figure out the average winning margin, but I'd wager it was, from a data perspective, less than 1.5. This season, you could argue the same - just probably with more draws and losses obviously, but the margin of our results was the same. As a fan, it feels incredibly volatile and unpredictable, because things are played at such tight margins. It's a results-driven for NJ, the manager, as he loses his job if results dip, but he drags the game to such tight defensive percentages that his teams can overperform.
When you are winning or are broadly on an upward trend in the table, it feels great. Another tight win or battle of a draw. It wasn't pretty on the eye, but we get the points and the football performance is forgotten. When we're in the trenches of poor form, it feels really awful. After moving up a division, we were always likely to score much less goals against significantly better defences. This is highlighted by us bypassing and not playing through midfield, and has been a fairly common trait of ours for a while, and the only real shining light there in Carey feels like the minutes have caught up with him at the business end of this season. Our captain doesn't want the ball nor has any quality, and we've had lack of form/injuries affect the others. That lack of midfield presence drastically impacts our forward line, who want to be fed the ball from our midfield with quality to succeed. The failed WB/Winger experiments hamper us massively, as it becomes a rarer position to recruit for - it feels like wingers coming through the game nowadays are more used to having a fullback behind them, whilst those players who call themselves wingbacks are normally fullbacks who can occasionally push forward.
Suffice to say, NJ has done a good job, but his rigidity over the way he generally sets his team to start games and the growing niche of recruitment for those playing roles feels difficult to swallow when results don't go our way. This was always going to be the difficulty of this season, because as much as staying in the league at all costs was the target, it always meant NJ would double down on the playing style he believes in and in a league where budgets are, quite honestly, pretty bonkers.
Regardless of how this season ends for us, we will likely stick with him. I think we stay up, hopefully invest again in quality and THEN we judge after the opening 10 games. In the less likely outcome (imho) that we go down, we'd be looking to bounce back with a squad that should have enough and assess similarly. NJ puts the blame at the door of player quality when about our football, but I'd argue it is by design if he continues to persist with the variant of 5-3-2 he plays.
It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what another experienced Championship manager might do with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and our squad. I like to think of a world were TC and Apter played on opposite wings with fullbacks behind them. Maybe there's a natural naivety to that where we just get smashed every week. However, things like LJones needing 2 CBs around him to get the best from him necessitates that decision. I'm no expert - just the thought of another manager with these players yielding "better" results with different tactics intrigues me.If we played Apter and TC on the wings in a different shape, neither of them are going to have consistent output at this level. They just aren’t that good, Apter is struggling in the league below is this kind of formation. So we would concede more goals by changing to a back 4 and we would barely score any more than we do now. And if people expect us to sign wingers with pace and consistent end product, good luck finding them at a price we can afford.
My points about Apter and TC (and by proxy, 4 at the back) are more about freeing them both up to actually play their natural positions and generate more chance opportunities. There are so many factors impacting their performances this season, both in and out of our teams, but given the early impressions I had from having both in the team, I thought something might have been there. Similarly around your point that you feel we wouldn't score more across a season in their natural positions, it's something I think the opposite and we may have seen more from Kelman/Leaburn, perhaps. It's one of those rebalancing acts of defense vs attack that proves so difficult when you are promoted - and maybe the difference would not be quite as stark as you make it.
As I say, it's a thought experiment, we'll never know and you can't A/B test. I just think the commitment to 3 at the back is the significant aspect of why we struggle to score goals - and I fear that, without adding real genuine (read: expensive) quality to both WB/CM positions going forward, it's a limiting factor to the way NJ sets his teams up. My thoughts in that regard turn to Wrexham and how their spendy players carry them through games, despite the way Parky sets them up, for example.
I don't think it's as cut and dry as you propose, but amusingly enough, I suspect if I was able to have this candid conversation with NJ honestly about it, he clearly shares your views with the same vigour. I just find it an interesting what if to solve our creative/goal-scoring challenges in a way that wouldn't have substantial spending as the only prerequisite. We never got to see what those wingers in a 4 at the back system (and won't ever, most likely), but what happens if we start poorly next season, NJ is ousted and someone comes in who plays that way? If NJ did go, for whatever reason, his devout commitment to 3 at the back would always be part his legacy to me.1 -
I do think the signing of Sichenje might allow us to play a back 4. You could even have an Arsenal style back 4 that is actually 4 CB's with Bell Sichenje Jones Ramsay or you could play Edwards at LB. Both options are very solid, TC would do the running on the left to protect Bell's hammy and the correct right winger could help too. We could still have a fairly workman like midfield helping out too, maybe even dropping back to create 3/5 when needed. We are slowly building a squad with more flexibility2
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We are all supporting the same club at the end of the day. We all have different views on what we enjoy watching, some fans are 100% results oriented and it doesn’t matter what they are watching if results are coming. Personally I’m not in that camp but I don’t blame anyone who is. For me football should be enjoyable to watch and this season 90% of the time has been dire to watch, I’m hoping it has been a case of needing to be pragmatic to stay up but next season if it remains this style I’m not sure I can watch it. The club it seems is ambitious to see the valley attendances growing but they won’t as without a level of half decent football on display it will be only the die hard fans going. 10 passes across the back line and then a hoof ball up the field isn’t going to cut it. I love NJ and he still very much has my trust but if he doesn’t improve the offering he will be gone by Xmas which I honestly don’t want to happen. We all know a massive transfer window is needed and I’m preying we already have a list of 7/8 first team actual footballers lined up, no more injury prone punts or league one projects for the future please !! Controversial I know but I would sell TC and Miles if the money for potential is decent and sign a few more Kenyans if Collins is anything to go by0
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I just wish Jones could move on from always having to prove he’s right and the fans were wrong - witness the quotes to Cawley re Godden v May. It’s petty and unnecessary - he should just stick to the high ground. It doesn’t help him build any credit when the going gets tough like right now.
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I actually didn't mind that particular quote. It's his way of saying "trust me"3
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The bit about trawling back through social media is more about control than trust.0
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Next time he mentions it there should be a follow-up question about Gassan.8
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That summer when we signed JBG, Vetokele etc. and things were a bit exciting for a couple of months was ahead of our third season at the level post promotion.elbiglad said:
Ok - so you’d like better players. We’d all love Charlton to have better players. How does it happen within our budget?Braziliance said:
I want to watch players in the Championship like Lookman, Yann, JBG, Buyens, JRS, Cullen and any other decent player we have had in recent years over a lot of the shit we have had to watch.elbiglad said:
I don't know what your ideal yet realistic situation is then? I'm reading 'exciting football' to mean possession based, but please correct me if I'm wrong. We're not in a position to attempt to play that type of football with this squad. For us to play that way next year it would require investment in the summer that will likely result in a points deduction in a few years time.Braziliance said:
I've always had the opinion that I don't rate Jones football but if the results are good I don't care, results are drying up, the football is just as bad, so naturally people will be annoyed.NabySarr said:
Why are so many people of the belief that Jones can’t play any other way? Even last season with us we played good stuff from Late-December to May, we were the second highest scorers in the league and second best team in the leagueBraziliance said:
I think we should.fenaddick said:
But those clubs did come up with an alternative.Braziliance said:
Don't understand this. Imagine if Southampton, Sheffield United or Norwich had this mindset, it might have been one of them getting relegated this season.thenewbie said:
For me what it comes down to is who is this mystery manager who will come in and suddenly turn our current bunch of limited players into prime passing talent? I'm not saying the results are great (they're very much not.) I certainly am not saying I like what we do in terms of style.Chizz said:
No. But it does rather draw questions as to who might be better placed to deliver a better record, thereby becoming one of Charlton's greatest ever managers.wmcf123 said:
Just because he’s better than any of those muppets , doesn’t mean he’s the right man beyond this season .Off_it said:
He's off taking "acting" lessons.gringo said:
Wheres Appleton?Chizz said:Here's a list of managers who have been in charge of Charlton this century. It is, of course, depressingly long.
I've ranked them in order of their win percentages.
Kevin Nugent — 50.0%Johnnie Jackson — 45.5%Lee Bowyer — 45.5%Nathan Jones — 43.0%Chris Powell — 42.4%Dean Holden — 39.2%Alan Curbishley — 38.2%Karl Robinson — 36.5%Alan Pardew — 35.9%Phil Parkinson — 34.3%Guy Luzon — 32.4%Nigel Adkins — 31.4%Karel Fraeye — 28.6%José Riga — 25.0%Bob Peeters — 25.0%Iain Dowie — 23.1%Les Reed — 16.7%Keith Peacock — 0.0%Curtis Fleming — 0.0%
To provide added context, the managers in bold are those who have improved Charlton's league position over three consecutive seasons.
Russell Slade is patiently waiting for someone to bother to work out his stats and Ben Garner (who?) is currently teaching PE (badly) to classes at infants school.
Sometimes, it's better to stick with someone who has done an outstanding job in comparison to dozens before him, than rely on nothing more than dumb hope alone that we could stumble across someone better.
And, when I say sometimes, I mean always.
But until someone can come up with a viable candidate for someone who can get better results and better football on the same budget Jones works with then frankly we're better off (in purely pragmatic terms) with the devil we know.... sadly.
It's not our job as fans to identify a manager or players, as we aren't qualified to do so, and no one at the club would listen anyway.
It is our duty however to voice our concerns and let the club know we are displeased vocally or with our feet if the football or results etc are poor.
There are people who are paid a fortune at the club to make these decisions, and at any professional club.
Big changes in the summer. Jones knows it himself as he's already been on the chopping board twice. We have literally been one loss away twice from having a new manager and people talk like it's absurd to want him out.
No matter what, the club need to spend a lot this summer. If Jones relies on even 30% of this squad again, we will go down, not a doubt in my mind. That's if we manage to stay up.
Of course it isn't our job but it isn't our job to decide we want the manager sacked, who we want to be in the XI, who we'd like to sign etc. but we still discuss is. I think it's interesting that as fans we're happy to discuss all of the above but until a manager is sacked people are reticent to talk about who should be next. Why is it any different?
I will happily admit, I don't want to watch this football anymore. If I am viewed as negative, moany, etc then so be it.
I want Charlton to stay up of course, and I said I would be happy to spend the next 20 years in this league after the last shit show of a decade, but, we simply won't do it with this style of play and players.
Big changes needed. Starts with the squad, but if we sign some proper Championship players, and we are still playing in this fashion, we need fresh ideas on the touchline and back room as well.
Unfortunately, I don't see how it changes. I honestly think you could give Jones, Jack Rudoni, Hayden Hackney, Imrân Louza and we would still look negative and prioritise not losing if they only listened to his instructions and played without freedom.
I'm at a point where I believe he knows one way and one way only. Sheffield Wednesday was enough for me, if we can't outplay them then it's bleak.
Not saying I want him gone, if he turns it around next season and we can start playing some football then goody gum drops, I just don't see it.
He’s shown it at Luton before too. So why is it that people think he’s incapable of producing a team that plays better football, he literally did it last season ffs! When he’s got good players for the level and a bit of time he’s shown before that he can do it so why do so many doubt it now?
I can honestly say I only enjoyed a few performances last season. Wycombe away, Northampton away, Huddersfield at home, Birmingham at home, maybe a few others. I unfortunately missed Orient away.
Then of course I enjoyed results like Wycombe at home, Wembley, Bolton away. But the football was mostly poor and relying on TC or Small to make something happen. Was extremely rare we were putting on a clinic.
It's the same as this season. Enjoyed Brum away second half, Blackburn second half at home, Ipswich second half away, then after that it's real slim pickings.
He just doesn't play exciting football, not his style.
If by 'exciting' you mean a team that takes more risks within our current style, then I agree with you but I think that is mostly a result of our current situation. This is our first year at the level and most have expressed surprise at how big the gap between the leagues is. We are in a relegation scrap and it isn't the time to go away from our identity. We have the 6 point gap and don't need to play for wins as others do.
I personally enjoyed how we played throughout most of 2025 and I am a bit surprised that you didn't, but to each their own of course. I like possession based football, but I'm just as happy to watch a team that is: defensively solid, willing to mix it up and be direct at times, aggressively pressing teams and, above all else, working hard. These were what I considered to be the core principles of the team last year.
So if we see a slightly improved squad after the summer, then I see our realistic best case scenario to be a bit more consistency and an improvement on the football we saw during our apex of 2025 that can hopefully be sustained deeper into the season. I'd take that.
You've said you'd be happy for us to have 20 years in this league. If that's the case you have to accept we're likely to see a lot of middling football. Unless we strike it lucky with some signings, I think we have to realise that progress may be slow. With all of that said, it has been a tough and stressful watch lately.
Regarding the bold part, this is kind of my point. We won't stay in this league even 3 years unless there is a massive shift.
You can enjoy today and worry about tomorrow. Unless we up the ante or change the staff, we can expect another season of playing scared and not to lose. Will only take you so far.Stay in the league. Try to become established. Improve the team slowly and steadily. There is no other way, we don’t have the facilities to spend tens of millions. We either get it seriously right one window, or we exercise some patience. It’s our first year in this league. If we’re playing shit football with poor results in December then I would understand the levels of frustration.
I think the reason you haven’t enjoyed most of the last twenty years is because we’ve chopped and changed managers and players every year. We’ve been a terribly run club. We’ve finally got some shoots of life and we’ve got fans trying to get the manager sacked and questioning the board’s ambition because we are likely going to avoid relegation by playing boring football? I don’t get it.
If you go back two years prior when we were establishing ourselves at the level and take a sample of players that played a significant role in our first season back:
Salim Kerkar
Danny Seaborne
Brad Pritchard
Jon Obika
Cedric Evina
I don’t think any of them ever went on to play at a higher level and that it was pretty clear we would need to outgrow them, and we did a season or two later.
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I appreciate the sentiment of many saying we need to accept functional pragmatic football to consolidate our place in the championship. The only issue I see is that the performance we are producing (and have largly produced this season) may not be enough to guarentee survival for the next few seasons. Make no mistake we are staying up this season in large part to two teams below us having points deduction.1
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The bit where he said he had a really good relationship with Alfie May is bullshitWeegie Addick said:I just wish Jones could move on from always having to prove he’s right and the fans were wrong - witness the quotes to Cawley re Godden v May. It’s petty and unnecessary - he should just stick to the high ground. It doesn’t help him build any credit when the going gets tough like right now.
Alfie May said ‘ he doesn’t want to talk to me , I’m trying to speak to him’ after a few weeks of NJ being here and then a few weeks more ‘ he doesn’t fancy me and I’ll be gone ‘ something along those lines , talking to my friend who knew him through youth football in the lounge after matches when he’d won motm .
but agreed NJ carries a chip on his shoulder and harps back to blow his own trumpet about his players and he did this here or there , stay humble
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Love your VLOGs. Very well made. Keep going!Braziliance said:
Spot on Steve.SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...
Followed Charlton Athletic my whole life to start a YouTube channel one day. It's all coming together.
Fkn hell 😂0 -
Appreciate tensions are high, but come on man this is a personal attack. I’ve met Braziliance several times and he bleeds Charlton. We have not sold out a lot of away games, so he’s not stopped anyone.SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...2 -
I'm sensing some sexual tension in the air and SteveACS has a massive crush on Braziliance and doesn't really know how to express his feelings .
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Where has Alfie ever said that? Not denying he did but just wonderibg if its publicly available like the video where he explains his reasons for leaving?oohaahmortimer said:
The bit where he said he had a really good relationship with Alfie May is bullshitWeegie Addick said:I just wish Jones could move on from always having to prove he’s right and the fans were wrong - witness the quotes to Cawley re Godden v May. It’s petty and unnecessary - he should just stick to the high ground. It doesn’t help him build any credit when the going gets tough like right now.
Alfie May said ‘ he doesn’t want to talk to me , I’m trying to speak to him’ after a few weeks of NJ being here and then a few weeks more ‘ he doesn’t fancy me and I’ll be gone ‘ something along those lines , talking to my friend who knew him through youth football in the lounge after matches when he’d won motm .
but agreed NJ carries a chip on his shoulder and harps back to blow his own trumpet about his players and he did this here or there , stay humble
For what its worth NJ was right in the May decision but that doesnt mean he is right about everything else since. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.0 -
Is missing key events of a match or spending moneh at someones elses ground on an away day, the new measure of whether one is a charlton fan now ? If so I assume none of us are in fact charlton fans. Also if i wish to have a beer at next away game do i bring my own cans with me ?SteveACS said:The fact is, Braziliance is not a Charlton supporter. He proved that with his blog from the Leicester game. Hd couldn't be ar5ed to watch Charlton play. So much so, he missed the red card, Charlton's first goal, and Leicester's missed penalty. He was far more a Lricester supporter that day, than a Charlton one. From his creaming his jeans at their store, to him rather spending money in Leicester's concourse at half time, than watch the game.
But, what he doesn't address, that by buying a ticket, he's stopping a genuine supporter from going to watch the team play...1 -
He’s right, it’s proven. Let’s not forget this is a guy that’s managed James Ward Prowse and beaten Man City, as well as managing Gassan Ahadme and losing to Crawley. He’s proven he’s right. And once somethings been proven, it’s proven in perpetuity.Weegie Addick said:I just wish Jones could move on from always having to prove he’s right and the fans were wrong - witness the quotes to Cawley re Godden v May. It’s petty and unnecessary - he should just stick to the high ground. It doesn’t help him build any credit when the going gets tough like right now.1 -
Not being funny but me being closet Leicester shows how proper Charlton I am.
We don't sing "over land and sea and Leicester" for fun ffs.
Up the Foxes
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nice to see the sock brand matches the shirt. well played. Nothing worse than mixing things up 😉1
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I think Sichenje is able to play that role, but it is definitely not his best role. We’ve seen he’s got really good attributes to play at RCB in a 3. He’s very very agressive and loves to step out to win the ball, something you can do a lot less in a back 4 set up than you can do in a 3. He also looks very good on the ball, carrying it forward and finding progressive passes, again much easier to do in a 3. The back 3 is here to stayfenaddick said:I do think the signing of Sichenje might allow us to play a back 4. You could even have an Arsenal style back 4 that is actually 4 CB's with Bell Sichenje Jones Ramsay or you could play Edwards at LB. Both options are very solid, TC would do the running on the left to protect Bell's hammy and the correct right winger could help too. We could still have a fairly workman like midfield helping out too, maybe even dropping back to create 3/5 when needed. We are slowly building a squad with more flexibility0 -
Apter and TC would both do better in a 4-3-3 setup, but they wouldn’t do better enough to make up for the fact we’d concede more goals. We also don’t have a number 9 good enough to lead the line in the championship, maybe we do now with Dykes, but we’ve only had him since January. We’d have seriously struggled for the first half of the season if we’d had to play Kelman, Leaburn or Olaofe up front on their own, in league 1 they’d be fine but not at this level. So I think the attacking effectiveness would be pretty similar to before but we’d concede more goalsth0rryy said:
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the 3 vs 4 at the back - I just feel that the defensive solidity wouldn't entirely be lost and the capability of those players (and others) to play as a 4 wouldn't immediately guarantee relegation. The point is void until such time that NJ isn't here (he ain't for changin') - but again, I point to the thought experiment of another manager picking the team if he wasn't. Just think it's not quite as you suggest, whilst still recognising the broad effectiveness of our defense and NJ generally.NabySarr said:
We’d be relegated. The calls for this at a few points this season were just silly. Our whole side is built around being good defensively, we don’t have the defence for a back 4 because we’ve recruited for 2 years to be a back 3 team. Jones is one of the best middle centre backs in the league, in a back 4 he’d still be good but not as good at all as he is now. Bell is brilliant in a 3, not in a 2. Same with Ramsay. We’ve just signed Sichenje who again has the attributes perfectly suited to a 3. The 3 at the back is going nowhereth0rryy said:I think the beliefs that we've overperformed for our experience/budget in this league and we play generally unattractive, grindy hateball can both be true at the same time.
NJ has done a good job here - of that, there is no question. He stabilised us in L1 and then got us promoted through the playoffs. However, I have consistently felt that the tolerance of both his tactics and style of play from a fan perspective will only be enough whilst we get results. Even when we went on our run last season after losing at home to Crawley, we were usually only winning by 1 - you could probably figure out the average winning margin, but I'd wager it was, from a data perspective, less than 1.5. This season, you could argue the same - just probably with more draws and losses obviously, but the margin of our results was the same. As a fan, it feels incredibly volatile and unpredictable, because things are played at such tight margins. It's a results-driven for NJ, the manager, as he loses his job if results dip, but he drags the game to such tight defensive percentages that his teams can overperform.
When you are winning or are broadly on an upward trend in the table, it feels great. Another tight win or battle of a draw. It wasn't pretty on the eye, but we get the points and the football performance is forgotten. When we're in the trenches of poor form, it feels really awful. After moving up a division, we were always likely to score much less goals against significantly better defences. This is highlighted by us bypassing and not playing through midfield, and has been a fairly common trait of ours for a while, and the only real shining light there in Carey feels like the minutes have caught up with him at the business end of this season. Our captain doesn't want the ball nor has any quality, and we've had lack of form/injuries affect the others. That lack of midfield presence drastically impacts our forward line, who want to be fed the ball from our midfield with quality to succeed. The failed WB/Winger experiments hamper us massively, as it becomes a rarer position to recruit for - it feels like wingers coming through the game nowadays are more used to having a fullback behind them, whilst those players who call themselves wingbacks are normally fullbacks who can occasionally push forward.
Suffice to say, NJ has done a good job, but his rigidity over the way he generally sets his team to start games and the growing niche of recruitment for those playing roles feels difficult to swallow when results don't go our way. This was always going to be the difficulty of this season, because as much as staying in the league at all costs was the target, it always meant NJ would double down on the playing style he believes in and in a league where budgets are, quite honestly, pretty bonkers.
Regardless of how this season ends for us, we will likely stick with him. I think we stay up, hopefully invest again in quality and THEN we judge after the opening 10 games. In the less likely outcome (imho) that we go down, we'd be looking to bounce back with a squad that should have enough and assess similarly. NJ puts the blame at the door of player quality when about our football, but I'd argue it is by design if he continues to persist with the variant of 5-3-2 he plays.
It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what another experienced Championship manager might do with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and our squad. I like to think of a world were TC and Apter played on opposite wings with fullbacks behind them. Maybe there's a natural naivety to that where we just get smashed every week. However, things like LJones needing 2 CBs around him to get the best from him necessitates that decision. I'm no expert - just the thought of another manager with these players yielding "better" results with different tactics intrigues me.If we played Apter and TC on the wings in a different shape, neither of them are going to have consistent output at this level. They just aren’t that good, Apter is struggling in the league below is this kind of formation. So we would concede more goals by changing to a back 4 and we would barely score any more than we do now. And if people expect us to sign wingers with pace and consistent end product, good luck finding them at a price we can afford.
My points about Apter and TC (and by proxy, 4 at the back) are more about freeing them both up to actually play their natural positions and generate more chance opportunities. There are so many factors impacting their performances this season, both in and out of our teams, but given the early impressions I had from having both in the team, I thought something might have been there. Similarly around your point that you feel we wouldn't score more across a season in their natural positions, it's something I think the opposite and we may have seen more from Kelman/Leaburn, perhaps. It's one of those rebalancing acts of defense vs attack that proves so difficult when you are promoted - and maybe the difference would not be quite as stark as you make it.
As I say, it's a thought experiment, we'll never know and you can't A/B test. I just think the commitment to 3 at the back is the significant aspect of why we struggle to score goals - and I fear that, without adding real genuine (read: expensive) quality to both WB/CM positions going forward, it's a limiting factor to the way NJ sets his teams up. My thoughts in that regard turn to Wrexham and how their spendy players carry them through games, despite the way Parky sets them up, for example.
I don't think it's as cut and dry as you propose, but amusingly enough, I suspect if I was able to have this candid conversation with NJ honestly about it, he clearly shares your views with the same vigour. I just find it an interesting what if to solve our creative/goal-scoring challenges in a way that wouldn't have substantial spending as the only prerequisite. We never got to see what those wingers in a 4 at the back system (and won't ever, most likely), but what happens if we start poorly next season, NJ is ousted and someone comes in who plays that way? If NJ did go, for whatever reason, his devout commitment to 3 at the back would always be part his legacy to me.1
