I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

SantaClaus said:

The reality is Jones has masterminded a team that can't press, can't create and can't pass the ball out from the back under even minimal pressure. Unless he can figure out a way to quickly fix those flaws he needs to go.

blackpool72 said:

Diebythesword said:

This season is turning into a carbon copy of last season = limited players playing a strict system which does very well at the beginning and then gets worked out by opposition sides, we then add experienced players on frees/loans and we survive. I’m not panicking (yet), but I think the owners will want to start to see progress.

The best way to see progress is if they give him a decent budget to bring in better players. 
Not trying to be clever by shopping at poundland 

Radostanradical said:

EugenesAxe said:

PeaksAndValleys said:

Radostanradical said:

PeaksAndValleys said:

Radostanradical said:

The only possible argument for keeping Jones in charge is the absence of a capable replacement, which should really tell you everything you need to about our prospects and some of our, so called, fans ambtions. There are mangers out there and yes it would be a gamble but I am afraid sticking with Jones is just a slow death march to League 1.

Lets be real, our early form flattered us. Even when we won 3 on the bounce were we actually playing well? For me bar the West Ham match not really. And for all the Jones disciples saying we are only 3 points off 8th or that we would of loved to be in this position last year, here is a fact - we havent won a league game since August.

As said I hope I am wrong and if we stick with Jones (a manager I have backed previously when our so called fans wanted him out for getting rid of a few players) ill be proven wrong, I just doubt I will be.

I literally listed six reasons in a post just above yours. They were helpfully numbered, to avoid just such a misunderstanding.

As I said, feel free to disagree with any of them, would be interested to hear it. But this post is just bollocks

This is incorrect for a number of reasons and I am currently on my lunch break so I will be kind enough to destroy all your arguments. You are welcome.

"We've been here before and Jones always turns it around" isn't actually an argument, it's just blind faith. At some point every manager runs out of turnarounds. If we're constantly ending up in these awful runs where half the fanbase wants him gone, maybe that's not evidence of his ability to fix problems, maybe it's evidence he's creating them in the first place. You don't get endless credit for putting out fires if you're the one holding the matches.

The budget excuse is getting a bit tired as well. We're told the squad isn't good enough, but Jones has had a massive say in recruitment, hasn't he? If the squad is genuinely this poor then who exactly is responsible for building it? Also, football history is full of managers getting more out of limited squads. You can't spend years taking credit for overperforming and then immediately hide behind the budget whenever the team falls apart.

The "who would you replace him with?" line is always one of the weakest arguments in football. Fans aren't paid to identify managerial targets. That's the club's job. If your defence of a manager boils down to "I can't think of anyone else" then you're basically admitting the performances aren't good enough and just hoping something turns up.

As for the league position, that's looking in the rear-view mirror. The concern is where we're heading, not where we've been. Teams don't suddenly wake up one morning in trouble. They slide into it because people keep pointing at the table and ignoring what's happening on the pitch. If the football is poor and the results are getting worse, eventually the table catches up with you.

Then there's all this stuff about philosophy being embedded through the club. Why is that automatically a good thing? A philosophy isn't some sacred object that has to be protected at all costs. It's only worth keeping if it's producing results. If it's not working, then being deeply embedded just means you've spread the problem throughout the club rather than solving it.

And finally, the five-year contract. That's the most bizarre defence of all. The fact it's expensive to sack him doesn't make him the right manager. That's just sunk-cost thinking. If a decision isn't working, throwing more time at it because you've already invested money is exactly how clubs make bad situations worse.

The reality is that most of these arguments aren't reasons to keep Jones. They're reasons why it would be awkward, expensive or inconvenient to get rid of him. They're arguments for sticking, not arguments that he's actually doing a good job.

Finally, If Nathan Jones was unemployed tomorrow and somebody suggested appointing him based purely on the football, performances and trajectory we're seeing right now, how many Charlton fans would be genuinely excited by it? I think we all know the answer.

It was cute you thought you made a point by calling my post bollocks though.

Not on my lunch break but luckily I'm treated like a big boy so I can manage my own time and respond to this immediately.

I'll start with the worst part (takes some doing) which is in bold. You start out saying they aren't reasons to keep Jones, then say they are reasons why getting rid would be bad - those are two sides of the same coin, if it's bad to get rid then that's a reason not to (also known as keeping him).

Then you say they are reasons for keeping not for him doing a good job - that's about the only correct thing in your post, unfortunately it's not an argument against me since that's exactly what I said the reasons were. Feel free to take a look. While you're scrolling back maybe look at your own post which referred to 'the only possible argument for keeping Jones' (not, the only argument for him doing a brilliant job currently).

Onto the also incorrect but slightly less offensively incoherent counterarguments. Blind faith - no, people calling for Jones' head have been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions. That's a very good reason to think they might be wrong now. Blind faith is sacking with no alternative plan and hoping things magically get better.

Ups and downs are part of football, if the average outcome season end is positive (which it is - safety, promotion, safety) then long term it's a good appointment. Sacking on every down is how you spend years languishing in league one. 

If you're tired of people pointing out that the budget almost guarantees poor performances and a low league position then take a nap. But it will still be true when you wake up. 

League position, as above it's about how you average out. He didn't deserve an offer to manage Barcelona off the back of winning the first three games and he doesn't deserve the sack off the back of the current run. As I said the form is concerning and that needs to be kept under review. Both position and form are rear view and used as an indicator of the future - you're just being selective in which one you want to cite. 

Think I've already dealt with your two final non points. I didn't say they made him a good manager, I said they were downsides to sacking him and therefore arguments for keeping him.

It was cute that you thought you could destroy my arguments. Glad I could clear things up for you. You're welcome. Hope you had time for a sandwich in between typing out that bollocks. 

Needless to say you had the last laugh...

It's nice to see Radostan writing in proper sentences though, and has dropped the "I'm too intelligent to use grammar" thing.

As always I have heard my people and give plentiful and wisely. I am but a man of the people, as long as those people are at least university educated and middle class. I'll tolerate the rest.

Uboat said:

Radostanradical said:

EugenesAxe said:

PeaksAndValleys said:

Radostanradical said:

PeaksAndValleys said:

Radostanradical said:

The only possible argument for keeping Jones in charge is the absence of a capable replacement, which should really tell you everything you need to about our prospects and some of our, so called, fans ambtions. There are mangers out there and yes it would be a gamble but I am afraid sticking with Jones is just a slow death march to League 1.

Lets be real, our early form flattered us. Even when we won 3 on the bounce were we actually playing well? For me bar the West Ham match not really. And for all the Jones disciples saying we are only 3 points off 8th or that we would of loved to be in this position last year, here is a fact - we havent won a league game since August.

As said I hope I am wrong and if we stick with Jones (a manager I have backed previously when our so called fans wanted him out for getting rid of a few players) ill be proven wrong, I just doubt I will be.

I literally listed six reasons in a post just above yours. They were helpfully numbered, to avoid just such a misunderstanding.

As I said, feel free to disagree with any of them, would be interested to hear it. But this post is just bollocks

This is incorrect for a number of reasons and I am currently on my lunch break so I will be kind enough to destroy all your arguments. You are welcome.

"We've been here before and Jones always turns it around" isn't actually an argument, it's just blind faith. At some point every manager runs out of turnarounds. If we're constantly ending up in these awful runs where half the fanbase wants him gone, maybe that's not evidence of his ability to fix problems, maybe it's evidence he's creating them in the first place. You don't get endless credit for putting out fires if you're the one holding the matches.

The budget excuse is getting a bit tired as well. We're told the squad isn't good enough, but Jones has had a massive say in recruitment, hasn't he? If the squad is genuinely this poor then who exactly is responsible for building it? Also, football history is full of managers getting more out of limited squads. You can't spend years taking credit for overperforming and then immediately hide behind the budget whenever the team falls apart.

The "who would you replace him with?" line is always one of the weakest arguments in football. Fans aren't paid to identify managerial targets. That's the club's job. If your defence of a manager boils down to "I can't think of anyone else" then you're basically admitting the performances aren't good enough and just hoping something turns up.

As for the league position, that's looking in the rear-view mirror. The concern is where we're heading, not where we've been. Teams don't suddenly wake up one morning in trouble. They slide into it because people keep pointing at the table and ignoring what's happening on the pitch. If the football is poor and the results are getting worse, eventually the table catches up with you.

Then there's all this stuff about philosophy being embedded through the club. Why is that automatically a good thing? A philosophy isn't some sacred object that has to be protected at all costs. It's only worth keeping if it's producing results. If it's not working, then being deeply embedded just means you've spread the problem throughout the club rather than solving it.

And finally, the five-year contract. That's the most bizarre defence of all. The fact it's expensive to sack him doesn't make him the right manager. That's just sunk-cost thinking. If a decision isn't working, throwing more time at it because you've already invested money is exactly how clubs make bad situations worse.

The reality is that most of these arguments aren't reasons to keep Jones. They're reasons why it would be awkward, expensive or inconvenient to get rid of him. They're arguments for sticking, not arguments that he's actually doing a good job.

Finally, If Nathan Jones was unemployed tomorrow and somebody suggested appointing him based purely on the football, performances and trajectory we're seeing right now, how many Charlton fans would be genuinely excited by it? I think we all know the answer.

It was cute you thought you made a point by calling my post bollocks though.

Not on my lunch break but luckily I'm treated like a big boy so I can manage my own time and respond to this immediately.

I'll start with the worst part (takes some doing) which is in bold. You start out saying they aren't reasons to keep Jones, then say they are reasons why getting rid would be bad - those are two sides of the same coin, if it's bad to get rid then that's a reason not to (also known as keeping him).

Then you say they are reasons for keeping not for him doing a good job - that's about the only correct thing in your post, unfortunately it's not an argument against me since that's exactly what I said the reasons were. Feel free to take a look. While you're scrolling back maybe look at your own post which referred to 'the only possible argument for keeping Jones' (not, the only argument for him doing a brilliant job currently).

Onto the also incorrect but slightly less offensively incoherent counterarguments. Blind faith - no, people calling for Jones' head have been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions. That's a very good reason to think they might be wrong now. Blind faith is sacking with no alternative plan and hoping things magically get better.

Ups and downs are part of football, if the average outcome season end is positive (which it is - safety, promotion, safety) then long term it's a good appointment. Sacking on every down is how you spend years languishing in league one. 

If you're tired of people pointing out that the budget almost guarantees poor performances and a low league position then take a nap. But it will still be true when you wake up. 

League position, as above it's about how you average out. He didn't deserve an offer to manage Barcelona off the back of winning the first three games and he doesn't deserve the sack off the back of the current run. As I said the form is concerning and that needs to be kept under review. Both position and form are rear view and used as an indicator of the future - you're just being selective in which one you want to cite. 

Think I've already dealt with your two final non points. I didn't say they made him a good manager, I said they were downsides to sacking him and therefore arguments for keeping him.

It was cute that you thought you could destroy my arguments. Glad I could clear things up for you. You're welcome. Hope you had time for a sandwich in between typing out that bollocks. 

Needless to say you had the last laugh...

It's nice to see Radostan writing in proper sentences though, and has dropped the "I'm too intelligent to use grammar" thing.

As always I have heard my people and give plentiful and wisely. I am but a man of the people, as long as those people are at least university educated and middle class. I'll tolerate the rest.

‘give plentiful’? 

Shame you don’t know about adverbs. 

EugenesAxe said:

Bedsaddick said:

blackpool72 said:

Diebythesword said:

This season is turning into a carbon copy of last season = limited players playing a strict system which does very well at the beginning and then gets worked out by opposition sides, we then add experienced players on frees/loans and we survive. I’m not panicking (yet), but I think the owners will want to start to see progress.

The best way to see progress is if they give him a decent budget to bring in better players. 
Not trying to be clever by shopping at poundland 

He’d just buy defensive players . 

isn't that what he has done?

wmcf123 said:

NabySarr said:

stjohnshill said:

I still back Jones but there are a few alarming trends that I am noticing - 

1) When we have 3 Championship games in a week, our record in that 3rd game is horrendous - P10 W0 D2 L8 scoring 3 conceding 18!!  Unfairly, 8 of those games have been away from home but Jones saying post match I should have freshened things up is true yet he hasn’t seemed to have learnt from the 9 matches before that how important it is for the 3rd game that week 

2) Jones strength of signing defenders with great traits, developing and coaching up, which his record is fantastic, is hurting us with attacking signings at large. 

He clearly signs a lot of attackers on traits because he believes he can develop them the same way. Sadly that has not been the case for most of them. Attacking wise we’ve been poor since he arrive and this season so far it’s much of the same. You can argue we looked better with Chalobah and we did but we all knew we’d get injured. His back up, Timmy. Another NJ signing based on traits who he believes he can develop, has turned out to be a nightmare and not for the first time in his career. 

4 out of the next 6 are at home. Desperately need 7 points from those to stay away from the relegation zone otherwise I think questions will have to be asked. 

He's good at signing defenders because they are cheaper. I bet he would love to sign midfielders and attackers that are the complete package rather than players with good traits that need more developing, but we simply don't have the budget to do that

Although he wasted a load of money on Kelman, Knibbs, Apter and Olaofe

NabySarr said:

wmcf123 said:

NabySarr said:

stjohnshill said:

I still back Jones but there are a few alarming trends that I am noticing - 

1) When we have 3 Championship games in a week, our record in that 3rd game is horrendous - P10 W0 D2 L8 scoring 3 conceding 18!!  Unfairly, 8 of those games have been away from home but Jones saying post match I should have freshened things up is true yet he hasn’t seemed to have learnt from the 9 matches before that how important it is for the 3rd game that week 

2) Jones strength of signing defenders with great traits, developing and coaching up, which his record is fantastic, is hurting us with attacking signings at large. 

He clearly signs a lot of attackers on traits because he believes he can develop them the same way. Sadly that has not been the case for most of them. Attacking wise we’ve been poor since he arrive and this season so far it’s much of the same. You can argue we looked better with Chalobah and we did but we all knew we’d get injured. His back up, Timmy. Another NJ signing based on traits who he believes he can develop, has turned out to be a nightmare and not for the first time in his career. 

4 out of the next 6 are at home. Desperately need 7 points from those to stay away from the relegation zone otherwise I think questions will have to be asked. 

He's good at signing defenders because they are cheaper. I bet he would love to sign midfielders and attackers that are the complete package rather than players with good traits that need more developing, but we simply don't have the budget to do that

Although he wasted a load of money on Kelman, Knibbs, Apter and Olaofe

That’s exactly my point. Signing top end league 1 attackers was all we could afford. If you want ready made championship attackers then they cost more than what we spent on those players 

queensland_addick said:

What I find disconcerting is that in recent interviews he appears to be delusional and detached from reality. 

shine166 said:

NabySarr said:

wmcf123 said:

NabySarr said:

stjohnshill said:

I still back Jones but there are a few alarming trends that I am noticing - 

1) When we have 3 Championship games in a week, our record in that 3rd game is horrendous - P10 W0 D2 L8 scoring 3 conceding 18!!  Unfairly, 8 of those games have been away from home but Jones saying post match I should have freshened things up is true yet he hasn’t seemed to have learnt from the 9 matches before that how important it is for the 3rd game that week 

2) Jones strength of signing defenders with great traits, developing and coaching up, which his record is fantastic, is hurting us with attacking signings at large. 

He clearly signs a lot of attackers on traits because he believes he can develop them the same way. Sadly that has not been the case for most of them. Attacking wise we’ve been poor since he arrive and this season so far it’s much of the same. You can argue we looked better with Chalobah and we did but we all knew we’d get injured. His back up, Timmy. Another NJ signing based on traits who he believes he can develop, has turned out to be a nightmare and not for the first time in his career. 

4 out of the next 6 are at home. Desperately need 7 points from those to stay away from the relegation zone otherwise I think questions will have to be asked. 

He's good at signing defenders because they are cheaper. I bet he would love to sign midfielders and attackers that are the complete package rather than players with good traits that need more developing, but we simply don't have the budget to do that

Although he wasted a load of money on Kelman, Knibbs, Apter and Olaofe

That’s exactly my point. Signing top end league 1 attackers was all we could afford. If you want ready made championship attackers then they cost more than what we spent on those players 

Chatgpt reckons we spent 8m on those 4. At what point does it make more sense to buy fewer players with the same budget, but better quality ?. Would love to know the total bill for last seasons 17 purchases, of which zero started on saturday.

Considering we are still starting players who came up with us in league 1, it might make more sense to sign 3/4 players who are Championship ready now, as all we are doing is buying good from league 1 and then expecting our kids to shine amongst them.