Bringing it closer to home Spare a thought for Fred Chick of the 13th Middlesex Regt, buried at Longueval on the Somme, his pal William Budden of the same unit who lies at Ljissenthoek just behind the Ypres Salient, both are in the clubs 1913/14 team photo alongside the Woolwich League Sheild, Woolwich Cup and Southern Suburban League trophies, and for Lancashire Lad John Mackenzie, a founding member of our beloved club and an ex club secretary when he lost his live as a merchant seaman aboard the SS Heron in September 1917, he can be found listed on the Tower Hill Memorial, in impressive and imposing tribute to the merchant services in both wars
I researched it for a book I wrote a few years ago now called The Greater Game, there was a fourth chap in the photograph called Alfred Kingsley, I found a L/Cpl Alfred Kingsley in the 1/Leicesters buried in White House Cemetery, St Jan in the Salient and he came from Camberwell but could not be 100% sure it was him so had to leave him out of the book, of the 30 players and officials that enlisted (many in the 2/20th London's whose depot was Holly Hedge House on Blackheath), the club records suggest that four lost their lives, I have always been a little surprised that given our history no memorial of book of remembrance appears to have been recorded anywhere, something for the centenary perhaps, I am always in the Rose of Denmark pre and post match should you ever want to discuss it over a beer
And the photo, I am trying to upload it from my Ipad thingy, it appears in a number of the Charlton histories over the years, Second row W.Budden is far left in the cap, Fred Chick alongside him suited and booted and first row seated third left in his kit is A Kingsley, I am in Ypres with a group for the 11th again this year so will visit him as I am convinced he is one of the same
Hi Clive, didn't realise it was you. You most likely don't remember that we had an email conversation quite a few years ago (Ben Hayes) on the same topic.
At the time I don't think you'd found the other two players. Will have to buy the book. Can I get a copy direct from you or is Amazon better?
I like the idea of a memorial. Maybe something the fans forum can raise with the Club and the members on Charlton Life could help fund raise for, if required. Maybe a plaque in the main stand somewhere.
I have found Alfred John Kingsley from Barbados who played 20 times between 1920/21, clearly he survived the war, perhaps my "Essential History of Charlton" does not record amateur appearances..if he is the same man that appears in the pre-war photo then, bang goes my theory! Just noticed the Kemble brothers just above him in my A/Z list and instantly recalled their brilliant 80's blonde wedge haircuts from reserve team pictures of yore....... In fact it is the same man from the photographs so our fourth lad remains a mystery...good job I didn't name him in the book..a lesson in checking sources there
I have found Alfred John Kingsley from Barbados who played 20 times between 1920/21, clearly he survived the war, perhaps my "Essential History of Charlton" does not record amateur appearances..if he is the same man that appears in the pre-war photo then, bang goes my theory! Just noticed the Kemble brothers just above him in my A/Z list and instantly recalled their brilliant 80's blonde wedge haircuts from reserve team pictures of yore....... In fact it is the same man from the photographs so our fourth lad remains a mystery...good job I didn't name him in the book..a lesson in checking sources there
Pleased to have helped even if it was a negative
Alfred John Kingsley was known as Scotty and is one of the most important player and people in the Club's history. Instrumental in getting the Club reformed after the war, went to the Swamps to see if it could be converted into a ground (it could, it's called the Valley now) and when we were broke and faced being closed down by a builder's debt allowed himself to be sold to Fulham for £1,000 (football has gone mad) to clear the debt.
No idea why he was born in Barbados but went to school in Plumstead or why he was called Scotty (maybe his parentage) but he was one of six children,
He was certainly playing for CAFC in 1912 so would appear to be the same player in both photos.
Thanks for the link Henry, have just ordered a couple.
I didn't spot any poppy boxes at all when I was in the UK last week and I was planning on a trip to our specialist butcher's on Saturday to pick some up. But they do have a nasty habit of falling out. And replacement poppies are hard to come by here in Stockholm. Bring back the old wire ones, I say.
Hopefully now we will be able to settle down to watch Halifax vs Charlton on tv properly attired :-)
Hi Ben, yes I remember the chat we had, I think we could get something going for a small memorial somewhere at the Valley, Reading, West Ham and Orient have done something similar in recent years. I certainly have a few contacts through my work with regards to getting something costed. Aside from this I was given a couple of seats at the Emirates this evening so took my lad to see some Champions League action, we were both touched by the home support holding a 90 minute silence so close to armistice day! Seriously, George is only six but commented on how quiet the place was with the exception of th Marseille support.....Daddy can we go back to the valley on saturday, it made me proud!
How bizarre is this. I had my copy of the Valiant 500 out only yesterday (after years in hiding) and was looking up the entry for Brian Kinsey - long story - which starts something along the lines of how it was appropriate that his entry followed on from "Scotty" Kingsley's - so obviously I read that one as well.
Hi Ben, yes I remember the chat we had, I think we could get something going for a small memorial somewhere at the Valley, Reading, West Ham and Orient have done something similar in recent years. I certainly have a few contacts through my work with regards to getting something costed.
Clive, if you could get an estimate then I will contact the Fans Forum and ask them to raise the issue with the Club. I know they are looking to revive the Club's Hall of Fame and electing the three people you identified into the Hall of Fame would be a good start IMHO.
Thinking out loud here and would appreciate some feedback from other Lifers but how would you all react to money from the current auctions of memorabilia going towards a memorial for the fallen as Clive suggests? It would be after other commitments such as the minibuses have been met.
And Clive, how much for a copy of your book? You can give it to Brian Cole and he can pass it over to me in the ground. Signed of course : - )
Is it still called the "Haig Fund" it used to say that on the centre of the poppy. My Grandfather hated that name as he thought Haig was a butcher he had that right as he was wounded twice and his brother killed (at Ypers).
he is outside boots at cannon st. Not been to stall, just read about on millwall site about the millwall poppies.
Point wasn't related to millwall, more about football allegencies becoming involved. The poppy to me is pretty sacred and shouldn't be messed about with imo
Bought mine this morning from that fella. Just a standard poppy but didn't take a look at his other stuff to see if it had any Millwall gubbins on it. Will probably go back in a day or so when my poppy falls off and buy one of the metal badges.
Righto Ben, my last tour ends on the 12th November (in time to go to Halifax which I think will be a great day out!) so this is something I can work on for the next few weeks, a mate of mine Andrew Riddoch wrote a cracking book called "When the Whistle Blows" about the Footballers battalions of the Middlesex Regiment, between us we may be able to arrange a couple of talks one evening to help raise a bit if the club felt it worthwhile?
I am coming along saturday and will pop a copy of the book in reception for you if thats ok, my seats are in the family section NE corner, if not we are in the RoD before after, the original was destroyed by a V1 but thats another story and another war... I have attached the West Ham and Orient memorials so you get an idea of what other clubs have done recently along the same lines
Cheers Clive, I will pick up the book from reception.
That Orient memorial is impressive. I was thinking more along the lines of the West Ham plaque.
I know I'd be interesting in such a talk and maybe a few others. Not sure there would be enough for a big room at the Valley but we can work on that. Maybe Bartrams but getting ahead of ourselves. Need to get a costing and get the club to agree to the idea as well.
Henry , thanks for your help spoke to someone from our local branch who is coming in tomorrow with 3 boxes , hopefully should be selling poppies at the till , he did sound a bit doddery though , so hopefully he'll find us!
Henry , thanks for your help spoke to someone from our local branch who is coming in tomorrow with 3 boxes , hopefully should be selling poppies at the till , he did sound a bit doddery though , so hopefully he'll find us!
will be a first you selling flowers that last for two weeks!
Sorry, Mike, it was too much of an open goal : - )
Henry , thanks for your help spoke to someone from our local branch who is coming in tomorrow with 3 boxes , hopefully should be selling poppies at the till , he did sound a bit doddery though , so hopefully he'll find us!
will be a first you selling flowers that last for two weeks!
Sorry, Mike, it was too much of an open goal : - )
No worries Henry , we sell Xmas trees as well and they don't last much longer! ;-0
Could I ask a favour? Would someone who will be in the Liberal club on saturday pick me up a metal Poppy badge? Obviously I will reimburse you fully and may even stretch to buying you a pint.
Is it still called the "Haig Fund" it used to say that on the centre of the poppy. My Grandfather hated that name as he thought Haig was a butcher he had that right as he was wounded twice and his brother killed (at Ypers).
I was wondering about that today, when I noticed for the first time that it said POPPY APPEAL in the centre. When did that change take place? I guess it's because there's so few of Haig's men victims left. It always struck me as an odd thing anyway, when I was a kid I thought it said Hag Fund.
Haig worked very hard after the war looking after ex-soldiers (I think he set up the British Legion) and at that time was seen as a hero.
Later on he was seen as one of the Donkeys.
Now some historians are seeing him in a slight more generous different light as a general fighting a war that was going to have high casualties regardless and that he was more concerned with losses than his French and German counterparts.
I dont want to start a huge debate but to suggest Haig is a butcher end of would be similar to when someone comments that football is a bit like 22 grown men running around and kissing each other, its just too over simplistic, (albiet that war has far more serious consequences than football I know)
A war in which 6 million men were in Khaki and 5 out of 6 came home, while many were traumatised by events they witnessed, that is common place among any generation that witnesses combat from Roman times to the current day, it was a truly industrial war where casualties on a mass scale were sadly inevitable, in 1918 victory at a huge cost was delivered by Haig and his men, as a commander it is hard to evaluate him against anyone else, Montgomery, Wellington and Marlborough had miniscule armies compared to Haig. In Russia Zukof suffered 21 million casualties but is regarded a hero, Haigs army suffered 713,000 British war dead, incredibly this is fewer per head than any other participating nation, 12.3% compared to 37% Turkish for example, sorry to waffle but I am a military historian by trade and you will not find a single credible one that subscribes to the Butcher theory.
I lost five uncles in the Great War so share the sadness of everyone with regards to the Great War but as someone who knew numerous veterans of the war, interviewed them and visited their old battlefields with them what was clear was they wanted empathy not sympathy and they hated their efforts and losses regarded as a waste by our generation who never witnessed the threat to thier way of life from the Kaisers Army, hope that doesnt offend anyone and I will go back into my box now and turn back into a footy fan.......oh Man City have just scored
I brought my poppy today. It's on my noticeboard at work as I have some strange dislike of pinning things to my clothes. Lots of lovely young armed forces men at London Bridge today, I wanted to go and buy a poppy from each and every one but I would have been bankrupt!
Comments
Have visited Fred Chick's grave and paid my respects but had no knowledge of Budden or McKenzie.
Would love to know more and I know a few other lifers would too.
Please let us know your source for the above and can you stick up a copy of that team photo
Cheers
I researched it for a book I wrote a few years ago now called The Greater Game, there was a fourth chap in the photograph called Alfred Kingsley, I found a L/Cpl Alfred Kingsley in the 1/Leicesters buried in White House Cemetery, St Jan in the Salient and he came from Camberwell but could not be 100% sure it was him so had to leave him out of the book, of the 30 players and officials that enlisted (many in the 2/20th London's whose depot was Holly Hedge House on Blackheath), the club records suggest that four lost their lives, I have always been a little surprised that given our history no memorial of book of remembrance appears to have been recorded anywhere, something for the centenary perhaps, I am always in the Rose of Denmark pre and post match should you ever want to discuss it over a beer
At the time I don't think you'd found the other two players. Will have to buy the book. Can I get a copy direct from you or is Amazon better?
I like the idea of a memorial. Maybe something the fans forum can raise with the Club and the members on Charlton Life could help fund raise for, if required. Maybe a plaque in the main stand somewhere.
Assume they are relations
Alfred John Kingsley was known as Scotty and is one of the most important player and people in the Club's history. Instrumental in getting the Club reformed after the war, went to the Swamps to see if it could be converted into a ground (it could, it's called the Valley now) and when we were broke and faced being closed down by a builder's debt allowed himself to be sold to Fulham for £1,000 (football has gone mad) to clear the debt.
No idea why he was born in Barbados but went to school in Plumstead or why he was called Scotty (maybe his parentage) but he was one of six children,
He was certainly playing for CAFC in 1912 so would appear to be the same player in both photos.
Thanks for the link Henry, have just ordered a couple.
I didn't spot any poppy boxes at all when I was in the UK last week and I was planning on a trip to our specialist butcher's on Saturday to pick some up. But they do have a nasty habit of falling out. And replacement poppies are hard to come by here in Stockholm. Bring back the old wire ones, I say.
Hopefully now we will be able to settle down to watch Halifax vs Charlton on tv properly attired :-)
Thinking out loud here and would appreciate some feedback from other Lifers but how would you all react to money from the current auctions of memorabilia going towards a memorial for the fallen as Clive suggests? It would be after other commitments such as the minibuses have been met.
And Clive, how much for a copy of your book? You can give it to Brian Cole and he can pass it over to me in the ground. Signed of course : - )
I have a Charlton & Poppy badge as well and wearing it.
Still donate though
And CAFC and Poppy might be OK but what next? Labour party? EDL? Sainsbury's.
Should just be a poppy and that's it IMHO
I am coming along saturday and will pop a copy of the book in reception for you if thats ok, my seats are in the family section NE corner, if not we are in the RoD before after, the original was destroyed by a V1 but thats another story and another war... I have attached the West Ham and Orient memorials so you get an idea of what other clubs have done recently along the same lines
That Orient memorial is impressive. I was thinking more along the lines of the West Ham plaque.
I know I'd be interesting in such a talk and maybe a few others. Not sure there would be enough for a big room at the Valley but we can work on that. Maybe Bartrams but getting ahead of ourselves. Need to get a costing and get the club to agree to the idea as well.
will be a first you selling flowers that last for two weeks!
Sorry, Mike, it was too much of an open goal : - )
Would someone who will be in the Liberal club on saturday pick me up a metal Poppy badge? Obviously I will reimburse you fully and may even stretch to buying you a pint.
Later on he was seen as one of the Donkeys.
Now some historians are seeing him in a slight more generous different light as a general fighting a war that was going to have high casualties regardless and that he was more concerned with losses than his French and German counterparts.
You take your choice.
A war in which 6 million men were in Khaki and 5 out of 6 came home, while many were traumatised by events they witnessed, that is common place among any generation that witnesses combat from Roman times to the current day, it was a truly industrial war where casualties on a mass scale were sadly
inevitable, in 1918 victory at a huge cost was delivered by Haig and his men, as a commander it is hard to evaluate him against anyone else, Montgomery, Wellington and Marlborough had miniscule armies compared to Haig. In Russia Zukof suffered 21 million casualties but is regarded a hero, Haigs army
suffered 713,000 British war dead, incredibly this is fewer per head than any other participating nation,
12.3% compared to 37% Turkish for example, sorry to waffle but I am a military historian by trade and you
will not find a single credible one that subscribes to the Butcher theory.
I lost five uncles in the Great War so share the sadness of everyone with regards to the Great War but as
someone who knew numerous veterans of the war, interviewed them and visited their old battlefields with
them what was clear was they wanted empathy not sympathy and they hated their efforts and losses
regarded as a waste by our generation who never witnessed the threat to thier way of life from the Kaisers
Army, hope that doesnt offend anyone and I will go back into my box now and turn back into a footy fan.......oh Man City have just scored
I brought my poppy today. It's on my noticeboard at work as I have some strange dislike of pinning things to my clothes. Lots of lovely young armed forces men at London Bridge today, I wanted to go and buy a poppy from each and every one but I would have been bankrupt!