The red robin sky aint buying foreigners their money is.please tell me where there improvement in the national game has come from since their inception,our national team has got worse since they became involved in football. As i said in the club versus coutry thread it will always be club bcoz the top clubs dont give fcuk about our country.
To a certain extent BFR, but even that ethos is only going to get you to, say, the top 16 if you dont match it with grass root skills. It really is the only answer - most school football coaching is woeful. I should know, I've coached a few school teams and I was out of my depth, but by far from being the worst on the circuit.
clubs nick kids and stop them playing for sunday clubs and schools at 9 years old now.Get all of your heads out of your backsides wise up to the facts and start talking to the fcuking FA now.Dont blame coaching.The professional game have ALL these kids from 9 FUCKING FACT.
Calm down Steve We all have opinions And BTW you have NO idea where my head has been recently. And shouting F ing Fact a. Does not make it a fact b Is offensive and c belittles your point
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]The red robin sky aint buying foreigners their money is.please tell me where there improvement in the national game has come from since their inception,our national team has got worse since they became involved in football.
As i said in the club versus coutry thread it will always be club bcoz the top clubs dont give fcuk about our country.
Our national team has got worse since 1970 - not since SKY, although I see your point.
Stop swearing at everyone on here and talking to everyone like they're idiots as well mate. No need for it.
i am so annoyed with people who haven't got kids blaming coaching FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT clubs take kids and sign them on at academy forms at 9 years old.This comes under the fa remit,and imho opinion since sky have come into ther english game our performances have got worse. FACT
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]i am so annoyed with people who haven't got kids blaming coaching FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT clubs take kids and sign them on at academy forms at 9 years old.This comes under the fa remit,and imho opinion since sky have come into ther english game our performances have got worse. FACT
How do you know people haven't got kids? I think when people on here talk about coaching they include the coaching kids recieve at clubs as well, which clearly isn't good enough. FACT.
So who's remit does that come under imho it's the fa? Most clubs need to achieve a fa chartered standard club certificate to receive funding now a days don't they red robin ?
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]i am so annoyed with people who haven't got kids blaming coaching FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT clubs take kids and sign them on at academy forms at 9 years old.This comes under the fa remit,and imho opinion since sky have come into ther english game our performances have got worse. FACT
Given the lack of quality youth coaches surely this is a good thing? Kids with talent are identified early, the clubs who employ most qualified coaches are giving them the best tuition, if left to youth teams and schools they'll get over-played and get the wrong type of coaching.
The problem isn't the clubs coaching young players, but that the British style is based on passing the ball quickly and running. How many young players - and youth teams are told to value possession and feel comfortable with holding the ball?
We need to fast track youth academies that identify the best talent and nurture it properly as well as develop a programme to train more coaches.
A fact indicates findings derived through a process of evaluation, including review of testimony, direct observation, or otherwise; as distinguishable from matters of inference or speculation.
FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT
As for the other f*c* word ......this isn't a Millwall forum
The point you are missing Steve is that a few - and it really is a tiny fraction of the number of under 14s playing in the UK - get picked up by clubs. BUT If the coaching of all the others were better the later developers would increase the pool of talented players available. your argument, despite shouting FACT many times, only covers a fraction of the issue here.
Yes it does come under the FA remit. Slash wages - if they dont like it next season they can sod off - we will all still support our teams minus the stars. And is it really likely to affect TV revenues? Well for the benfit of the national team (and the associated trickle down benefits) it may be a cross to bear for a few seasons though personally I think Sky wont sell many foreign games above even lower quality premiership ones) Put the money saved into youth development
but what is wrong with this country is the bloody loopholes that man u aresnal & chelsea use in signing foreign kids at 15 to the detriment of our game such as fabregas , macheda etc. Jimmy just bocoz you are more intelligent than me and teach for living dont give you the right to belittle me .Because i could lose you in my sleep in my knowledge how to watch and play the game.
With regard to the sky point, Sky have provided the money lots of it,but the Premier League and the FA allowed that money to be used in a way that was not beneficial to the national game. From the very begining of the Premier League there should have been restrictions on the number of non nationals in squads, % age of income accouted for by salaries, money invested in developing british based talent, controls on foreign ownership. It did not happen so the sky money is used to pay players outrageous sums, were any of the players out there worth £100k plus?
Not sure if i got this off here but interesting comparison between Bundersliga and Premier League http://tinyurl.com/2um9jqx
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]but what is wrong with this country is the bloody loopholes that man u aresnal & chelsea use in signing foreign kids at 15 to the detriment of our game such as fabregas , macheda etc. Jimmy just bocoz you are more intelligent than me and teach for living dont give you the right to belittle me .Because i could lose you in my sleep in my knowledge how to watch and play the game.
Arsenal and Chelsea are hardly typical of all pro-football clubs are they?
Looking at England's starting team today:
David James - Watford youth team.
Lampard/Johnson - West Ham
Ashley Cole/Upson - Arsenal
Gerrard - Liverpool
Terry - Chelsea
Defoe - Charlton
Rooney - Everton
Milner - not sure but a prem team...
Taking others in the squad into consideration - Heskey - Leicester, Joe Hart - Man city, Joe Cole and Carrick -West Ham, and several others came through the youth teams at Spurs etc.
Just about every player in the squad came through a youth team at a premiership club or a team that had recently been in the premiership.
Coincidence? Or is that where the best scouting and coaching is to be found? That system seems to be very good at getting players to premiership standard, it's just a shame that training players up for the premiership means that they develop footballing skills that don't seem to transfer to international football and in particular international tournaments.
Premiership football isn't about skill but but about being tough, having a good motor and being able to cover a lot of ground and quickly - i.e, be a box-to-box type. Make a mistake - lose possession, no matter, you'll get the ball back soon enough. International football is by and large less frenetic and more about individual skill, holding the ball up, controlling the flowof the game - typically internationals are around 10-20% slower than prem football and as soon as the game slows down and you need to retain the ball and play to a strategy we as a footballing nation are lost.
Cap English wages to a sensible amount then all the foreign players will up sticks and go, so will some of our so called stars. What you will be left with is a lot of English players a English clubs. The downside of that is you dont get to see the likes of Tevez and diCanio gracing our pitches. The upside is the clubs go back to being supported by proper fans not plastics, we will actually be able to see how good football is in this country and address the problems. Its no good saying we do well in Europe when half the team are Europeans. When we stop getting anything in Europe those twats at the FA might (and that is only might) do something about it
[quote][cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]but what is wrong with this country is the bloody loopholes that man u aresnal & chelsea use in signing foreign kids at 15 to the detriment of our game such as fabregas , macheda etc. Jimmy just bocoz you are more intelligent than me and teach for living dont give you the right to belittle me .Because i could lose you in my sleep in my knowledge how to watch and play the game.[/quote]
Arsenal and Chelsea are hardly typical of all pro-football clubs are they?
Looking at England's starting team today: David James - Watford youth team. Lampard/Johnson - West Ham Ashley Cole/Upson - Arsenal Gerrard - Liverpool Terry - Chelsea Defoe - Charlton Rooney - Everton Milner - not sure but a prem team...
Taking others in the squad into consideration - Heskey - Leicester, Joe Hart - Man city, Joe Cole and Carrick -West Ham, and several others came through the youth teams at Spurs etc.
Just about every player in the squad came through a youth team at a premiership club or a team that had recently been in the premiership.
Coincidence? Or is that where the best scouting and coaching is to be found? That system seems to be very good at getting players to premiership standard, it's just a shame that training players up for the premiership means that they develop footballing skills that don't seem to transfer to international football and in particular international tournaments.
Premiership football isn't about skill but but about being tough, having a good motor and being able to cover a lot of ground and quickly - i.e, be a box-to-box type. Make a mistake - lose possession, no matter, you'll get the ball back soon enough. International football is by and large less frenetic and more about individual skill, holding the ball up, controlling the flowof the game - typically internationals are around 10-20% slower than prem football and as soon as the game slows down and you need to retain the ball and play to a strategy we as a footballing nation are lost.[/quote]
Exactly the training to get players to the so called prem standard is crap. Fcuk the prem we want english players good enough to represent OUR country not Man U ,Chelsea and Arsenal.Give the sky budget to the 72 other english clubs and see what materialises it cant be worse than that pile of shite.
Am i right in thinking that a lot of clubs like the chelseas and arsenals pick up kids and are running training camps where the kids parents actually have to PAY for the privelige?
Steve - stop making yourself look daft. Coating people off for having the temerity to have an opinion on what's wrong with youth football when they (shock horror) don't have kids of their own is silly. I have no children (and don't want them). I do, however, coach my nephew's under 12s side and see, week in week out, parents bellowing at their child from the sidelines to "GET STUCK IN!" and "'AVE 'IM TEL!" and "FER FUCKS SAKES DAZ, DON'T LET 'IM DO THAT TO YA!" as their child runs haplessly round like a headless chicken on a pitch that is four times the size of the one they should be playing on, hoofing the ball up the line as soon as they get it, running themselves ragged whilst touching the ball maybe ten times in a 40 minute half.
You make good points about the Sky money ruining the top level of football in this country (undoubtedly it does - as we've seen this season as undoubtedly the most talented player to come through our ranks since Parker has been snapped up for quota reasons for sod all by a team not likely to ever play him). However, if the English kids coming through were good enough they would be up there at the higher echelons of the game anyway - irrespective of their country of birth. Why do you think United, Arsenal, Chelsea et. al take their youth team players from abroad? It's because they are taught, at an early age, to be comfortable on the ball. To make and use space for themselves. To treat the ball like a friend, treat it like something to be creative with, rather than something to punt forward as soon as they can.
Take Spain as an example. For donkeys years Spain produced teams with lots of strong centre backs, pacy wingers but no forwards or midfielders who could pick a pass. As a result (discounting the mental block built up over years of previous failures) they consistently under-performed at tournaments. About fifteen years ago, the Spanish FA completely overhauled the way football was played - 11 a side football for under 14s in Spain is unheard of. Competitive matches aren't the be-all and end-all of youth team set-ups. Slowly the mentality started to change. More youth team coaches were trained up and, from Galicia to the Balearics, from Catalunya to the Canaries, Spain's youth football got faster, more intricate and more skilful. Spain's youth teams started winnign things left right and centre and, though finding strikers who could put the ball in the net regularly was still a problem due to over-reliance on importing foreign forwards, eventually this approach bore fruit for the full national side as well. Spain are now arguably the best or second best side in the world, have a midfield the likes of which England can only dream of and have a real chance of being at the top for a good few years to come.
If you think I'm just using Spain as an example on account of being more Spanish than English, then consider the French and Clairefontaine - their youth set-up is legendary and, whilst they've disgraced themselves in spectacular fashion this year, their success over the past fifteen years has been remarkable.
None of that is coincidence - it comes down to the national FA taking a long hard look at itself and realising massive changes need to be made. Brooking has had the right ideas for years, but no-one's been listening to him.
[quote][cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]Cap English wages to a sensible amount then all the foreign players will up sticks and go, so will some of our so called stars. What you will be left with is a lot of English players a English clubs. The downside of that is you dont get to see the likes of Tevez and diCanio gracing our pitches. The upside is the clubs go back to being supported by proper fans not plastics, we will actually be able to see how good football is in this country and address the problems. Its no good saying we do well in Europe when half the team are Europeans. When we stop getting anything in Europe those twats at the FA might (and that is only might) do something about it[/quote]
Uncle, I have no problem with the likes of Tevez and Di Canio playing in England, what is wrong is when some clubs (Arsenal?) pack their squads (ressies and youth) with foreign players. Incidently the one good thing that Pardew ever said was that he got no joy (as an Englishman) seeing Arsenal progress in Europe when they did not have any Englsih players in it.
Look, we can't overhaul the national side and have any degree of success.
a) We don't have anywhere near the youth at a level that could be described as international class
b) A salary cap will never happen, as long as Sky are in control of the purse-strings and idiots like me subscribe
c) Why on god's earth would the clubs get onside? It's painful enough seeing the usual suspects drop out of every friendly squad as it is on their clubs say so. They are not going to agree to more games
d) With the degree of expectation we have the youth (assuming we magic some up) would be destroyed by the press
How the premier league can be run under an umbrella not belonging to the FA is beyond me
If our youth football is so sh*t and the coaching so bad, why are England the European under 17 champions (beating Spain in the final) and also the under 21 runners up as well? I don't think it's a case of our coaching being so bad, i think we just need to accept that the team/formations Capello picked were not good enough.
You are right, our under 17's are good. For under 17 level
I would not dream of putting any of them in the national side though
As much as it pains me to do it but I completely agree with Gareth Southgate in saying the players are not good enough, the manager can't always be blamed (very similar to Parkinson and Charlton)
[cite]Posted By: Carter[/cite]You are right, our under 17's are good. For under 17 level
I would not dream of putting any of them in the national side though
As much as it pains me to do it but I completely agree with Gareth Southgate in saying the players are not good enough, the manager can't always be blamed (very similar to Parkinson and Charlton)
No one would dream of putting them in the national side but the point is they are very goood and our U17's and U16's have been very good for a few yeears now so why when they get to the national age are they not good enough... Because they are warming the bench for Johnny foreigner thats why. No one is willing to give English youth a chance and to be fair you cant blame the managers. Most supporters start going into oneif they think the manager is playing a young player in a to high pressure game. I know i have read it on here many times. So you either want youth to progress or you dont. You cant say i want it to progress but not at my club its to big a risk
[cite]Posted By: Carter[/cite]You are right, our under 17's are good. For under 17 level
I would not dream of putting any of them in the national side though
As much as it pains me to do it but I completely agree with Gareth Southgate in saying the players are not good enough, the manager can't always be blamed (very similar to Parkinson and Charlton)
No one would dream of putting them in the national side but the point is they are very goood and our U17's and U16's have been very good for a few yeears now so why when they get to the national age are they not good enough... Because they are warming the bench for Johnny foreigner thats why. No one is willing to give English youth a chance and to be fair you cant blame the managers. Most supporters start going into oneif they think the manager is playing a young player in a to high pressure game. I know i have read it on here many times. So you either want youth to progress or you dont. You cant say i want it to progress but not at my club its to big a risk
That's an excellent point.
The feckwits who support the big 4/5 would go ballistic if their manager played a couple of English youngsters and the team began to struggle.
"Why don't we spend any money?" "These kids won't win us anything." "Why don't we sign XXXX from Real Whatevertheyarecalled." "The manager has lot it, he's got to go."
The desire for instant success is the curse of modern English football and it is not going to change.
Watching this tournament so far has been embarassing, Germany/Argentina/Spain/Brazil are so far in front of England that it is frightening to watch.
As has been said before, the only way through this is to write off this generation of players and move on to the Under-25 players and build a new team from there - as well as addressing the culture of coaching in England.
there is no answer that can fix this problem quickly, there is so much wrong with the youth development programmes at virtually all clubs, there is also a fundemental problem with the size of pitches outr children play on from the age of 11, in Holland i believe they dont play on the same pitches as us until they are 15, If you want players to be used to having the ball and have an ability on the ball this is the only way forward.
Coaching costs too much as a club we have a Uefa 3 coach that we all chip in and pay for and because he is a pal it costs a score but if we didnt know him it would be double that for 1 hour.
there is no improvement in our centre of excellence since 1985
we have wasted millions on the new wembley
our players who are good enough to play in any other national team are egotistical horrible scroats who wouldnt give you the shit off their shoe let alone the time of day when they become more humble and realise what they actually mean to those back home maybe they will give a shit in the future
Comments
As i said in the club versus coutry thread it will always be club bcoz the top clubs dont give fcuk about our country.
It really is the only answer - most school football coaching is woeful. I should know, I've coached a few school teams and I was out of my depth, but by far from being the worst on the circuit.
We all have opinions
And BTW you have NO idea where my head has been recently.
And shouting F ing Fact
a. Does not make it a fact
b Is offensive and
c belittles your point
Our national team has got worse since 1970 - not since SKY, although I see your point.
Stop swearing at everyone on here and talking to everyone like they're idiots as well mate. No need for it.
How do you know people haven't got kids? I think when people on here talk about coaching they include the coaching kids recieve at clubs as well, which clearly isn't good enough. FACT.
Given the lack of quality youth coaches surely this is a good thing? Kids with talent are identified early, the clubs who employ most qualified coaches are giving them the best tuition, if left to youth teams and schools they'll get over-played and get the wrong type of coaching.
The problem isn't the clubs coaching young players, but that the British style is based on passing the ball quickly and running. How many young players - and youth teams are told to value possession and feel comfortable with holding the ball?
We need to fast track youth academies that identify the best talent and nurture it properly as well as develop a programme to train more coaches.
FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT
As for the other f*c* word ......this isn't a Millwall forum
BUT
If the coaching of all the others were better the later developers would increase the pool of talented players available.
your argument, despite shouting FACT many times, only covers a fraction of the issue here.
Yes it does come under the FA remit.
Slash wages - if they dont like it next season they can sod off - we will all still support our teams minus the stars.
And is it really likely to affect TV revenues? Well for the benfit of the national team (and the associated trickle down benefits) it may be a cross to bear for a few seasons though personally I think Sky wont sell many foreign games above even lower quality premiership ones)
Put the money saved into youth development
Not sure if i got this off here but interesting comparison between Bundersliga and Premier League http://tinyurl.com/2um9jqx
Arsenal and Chelsea are hardly typical of all pro-football clubs are they?
Looking at England's starting team today:
David James - Watford youth team.
Lampard/Johnson - West Ham
Ashley Cole/Upson - Arsenal
Gerrard - Liverpool
Terry - Chelsea
Defoe - Charlton
Rooney - Everton
Milner - not sure but a prem team...
Taking others in the squad into consideration - Heskey - Leicester, Joe Hart - Man city, Joe Cole and Carrick -West Ham, and several others came through the youth teams at Spurs etc.
Just about every player in the squad came through a youth team at a premiership club or a team that had recently been in the premiership.
Coincidence? Or is that where the best scouting and coaching is to be found? That system seems to be very good at getting players to premiership standard, it's just a shame that training players up for the premiership means that they develop footballing skills that don't seem to transfer to international football and in particular international tournaments.
Premiership football isn't about skill but but about being tough, having a good motor and being able to cover a lot of ground and quickly - i.e, be a box-to-box type. Make a mistake - lose possession, no matter, you'll get the ball back soon enough. International football is by and large less frenetic and more about individual skill, holding the ball up, controlling the flowof the game - typically internationals are around 10-20% slower than prem football and as soon as the game slows down and you need to retain the ball and play to a strategy we as a footballing nation are lost.
Arsenal and Chelsea are hardly typical of all pro-football clubs are they?
Looking at England's starting team today:
David James - Watford youth team.
Lampard/Johnson - West Ham
Ashley Cole/Upson - Arsenal
Gerrard - Liverpool
Terry - Chelsea
Defoe - Charlton
Rooney - Everton
Milner - not sure but a prem team...
Taking others in the squad into consideration - Heskey - Leicester, Joe Hart - Man city, Joe Cole and Carrick -West Ham, and several others came through the youth teams at Spurs etc.
Just about every player in the squad came through a youth team at a premiership club or a team that had recently been in the premiership.
Coincidence? Or is that where the best scouting and coaching is to be found? That system seems to be very good at getting players to premiership standard, it's just a shame that training players up for the premiership means that they develop footballing skills that don't seem to transfer to international football and in particular international tournaments.
Premiership football isn't about skill but but about being tough, having a good motor and being able to cover a lot of ground and quickly - i.e, be a box-to-box type. Make a mistake - lose possession, no matter, you'll get the ball back soon enough. International football is by and large less frenetic and more about individual skill, holding the ball up, controlling the flowof the game - typically internationals are around 10-20% slower than prem football and as soon as the game slows down and you need to retain the ball and play to a strategy we as a footballing nation are lost.[/quote]
Exactly the training to get players to the so called prem standard is crap. Fcuk the prem we want english players good enough to represent OUR country not Man U ,Chelsea and Arsenal.Give the sky budget to the 72 other english clubs and see what materialises it cant be worse than that pile of shite.
You make good points about the Sky money ruining the top level of football in this country (undoubtedly it does - as we've seen this season as undoubtedly the most talented player to come through our ranks since Parker has been snapped up for quota reasons for sod all by a team not likely to ever play him). However, if the English kids coming through were good enough they would be up there at the higher echelons of the game anyway - irrespective of their country of birth. Why do you think United, Arsenal, Chelsea et. al take their youth team players from abroad? It's because they are taught, at an early age, to be comfortable on the ball. To make and use space for themselves. To treat the ball like a friend, treat it like something to be creative with, rather than something to punt forward as soon as they can.
Take Spain as an example. For donkeys years Spain produced teams with lots of strong centre backs, pacy wingers but no forwards or midfielders who could pick a pass. As a result (discounting the mental block built up over years of previous failures) they consistently under-performed at tournaments. About fifteen years ago, the Spanish FA completely overhauled the way football was played - 11 a side football for under 14s in Spain is unheard of. Competitive matches aren't the be-all and end-all of youth team set-ups. Slowly the mentality started to change. More youth team coaches were trained up and, from Galicia to the Balearics, from Catalunya to the Canaries, Spain's youth football got faster, more intricate and more skilful. Spain's youth teams started winnign things left right and centre and, though finding strikers who could put the ball in the net regularly was still a problem due to over-reliance on importing foreign forwards, eventually this approach bore fruit for the full national side as well. Spain are now arguably the best or second best side in the world, have a midfield the likes of which England can only dream of and have a real chance of being at the top for a good few years to come.
If you think I'm just using Spain as an example on account of being more Spanish than English, then consider the French and Clairefontaine - their youth set-up is legendary and, whilst they've disgraced themselves in spectacular fashion this year, their success over the past fifteen years has been remarkable.
None of that is coincidence - it comes down to the national FA taking a long hard look at itself and realising massive changes need to be made. Brooking has had the right ideas for years, but no-one's been listening to him.
Uncle, I have no problem with the likes of Tevez and Di Canio playing in England, what is wrong is when some clubs (Arsenal?) pack their squads (ressies and youth) with foreign players. Incidently the one good thing that Pardew ever said was that he got no joy (as an Englishman) seeing Arsenal progress in Europe when they did not have any Englsih players in it.
a) We don't have anywhere near the youth at a level that could be described as international class
b) A salary cap will never happen, as long as Sky are in control of the purse-strings and idiots like me subscribe
c) Why on god's earth would the clubs get onside? It's painful enough seeing the usual suspects drop out of every friendly squad as it is on their clubs say so. They are not going to agree to more games
d) With the degree of expectation we have the youth (assuming we magic some up) would be destroyed by the press
How the premier league can be run under an umbrella not belonging to the FA is beyond me
I would not dream of putting any of them in the national side though
As much as it pains me to do it but I completely agree with Gareth Southgate in saying the players are not good enough, the manager can't always be blamed (very similar to Parkinson and Charlton)
No one would dream of putting them in the national side but the point is they are very goood and our U17's and U16's have been very good for a few yeears now so why when they get to the national age are they not good enough... Because they are warming the bench for Johnny foreigner thats why. No one is willing to give English youth a chance and to be fair you cant blame the managers. Most supporters start going into oneif they think the manager is playing a young player in a to high pressure game. I know i have read it on here many times. So you either want youth to progress or you dont. You cant say i want it to progress but not at my club its to big a risk
Hyped him up to my mates, i know he's got it.
One day mate i bloody hope so. And hope he would show more stomach for the job than that lot did
That's an excellent point.
The feckwits who support the big 4/5 would go ballistic if their manager played a couple of English youngsters and the team began to struggle.
"Why don't we spend any money?" "These kids won't win us anything." "Why don't we sign XXXX from Real Whatevertheyarecalled." "The manager has lot it, he's got to go."
The desire for instant success is the curse of modern English football and it is not going to change.
Watching this tournament so far has been embarassing, Germany/Argentina/Spain/Brazil are so far in front of England that it is frightening to watch.
As has been said before, the only way through this is to write off this generation of players and move on to the Under-25 players and build a new team from there - as well as addressing the culture of coaching in England.
It's not going to happen though, is it?
Coaching costs too much as a club we have a Uefa 3 coach that we all chip in and pay for and because he is a pal it costs a score but if we didnt know him it would be double that for 1 hour.
there is no improvement in our centre of excellence since 1985
we have wasted millions on the new wembley
our players who are good enough to play in any other national team are egotistical horrible scroats who wouldnt give you the shit off their shoe let alone the time of day when they become more humble and realise what they actually mean to those back home maybe they will give a shit in the future