[cite]Posted By: Carter[/cite]You are right, our under 17's are good. For under 17 level
I would not dream of putting any of them in the national side though
As much as it pains me to do it but I completely agree with Gareth Southgate in saying the players are not good enough, the manager can't always be blamed (very similar to Parkinson and Charlton)
No one would dream of putting them in the national side but the point is they are very goood and our U17's and U16's have been very good for a few yeears now so why when they get to the national age are they not good enough... Because they are warming the bench for Johnny foreigner thats why. No one is willing to give English youth a chance and to be fair you cant blame the managers. Most supporters start going into oneif they think the manager is playing a young player in a to high pressure game. I know i have read it on here many times. So you either want youth to progress or you dont. You cant say i want it to progress but not at my club its to big a risk
Earlier on, someone mentioned that the teams of some of the big nations (Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Netherlands, you might add France) have very few players plying their trade in their own leagues. This is the other side of the Sky money - it means that English players are never bothered to leave the country and don't mind sitting on the bench all season. Why should Arsenal have to weaken their squad when Johnny Englishman would rather play for Bolton than Bayern? No player is forced to sit on the bench. They choose to go to these clubs instead of clubs who would play them, and they restrict themselves to a very small collection of possible clubs - something a Dutch player would never do.
I have to confess to feeling a strange sense of relief at England’s early demise. If we had gone further it would have only served to hide the fundamental problems in the way football is run in this country. There is a failure of governance at FA level which serves to ensure that there is a lack of vision as regards the role of football in this country.
Football in essence should be seen as a National sport that has national benefits to the community and the country. It is something that belongs to the nation and as such the leaders of the FA and Premier Leauge are custodian leaders. I.e. looking after something that belongs to us all.
In the absence of anything that even remotely looks like good governance football is run solely as a business, and designed to make as much money as is possible for those who run it. Even the high salaries for players are designed to keep them complicit in the fraud that football.
The Germans and most of our European counterparts have a very different perception on football and its place, including ownership of clubs, dissemination of monies from the top of the game, investment in youth football, and the development of technically gifted footballers, who from an early age are encouraged to play the game, enjoy the game, rather than being driven to aspire only to be Rooney or Gerrard.
Is this why Johnson couldn’t pass a ball, or Terry kept being dragged out of position, of course not. There is however in my view, a link between this and a culture where football in England knows the cost of everything, but the value of nothing.
England struggled internationally long before the Premier league. We failed to qualify in 74 and 78 and again in 94 just after the prem started.
The Premier League and high wages do not make good players bad. Tevez played very well for Argentina last night but he is a well paid "pampered" Prem League star.
Paying the current squad more or less will not make them better players.
However the high wages here plus IMHO an insular culture means that very few UK players are willing to travel abroad to play.
The same applies to our coaches. Interestingly Steve McClaren has been a success coaching in Holland - a country with a much better reputation for coaching/tactics etc then England. Booby Robson was also a success there. Roy Hodgson was a success overseas but had to wait 10 years to get another chance in England after "failing" at Blackburn.
Yet there are very few English managers at the very top of our game and we don't back the ones we do have by giving them time or allowing them to play football. Results win over style.
We still prefer the "name" manager over the qualified coach. Why else did Shearer get the job at Newcastle over Houghton. The latter is a long serving, qualified coach who has now had success but he would never had got the job while NCFC were in the Prem as he wasn't a Geordie or a name.
Our expectations of our players (see the RTE v BBC thread) are far too high, unrealistic and that is partly due to our media but we have thought we were going to win every tournament we've played in since I can remember. The influence of the media on who is picked ("Chris Who?") means that good but unfashionable plauers don't get a chance while Walcott in 2006 do.
We underrate other teams ie the current German side because they don't play in the Prem. They were a better team than us and they had better players. We do not have "world Class" players.
I agree with Steve to the extent that boys Sunday football is not where the problem is. Most kids are picked up by 10 ie before they play 11 a-side. And BTW the kids don't play 11 a-side on full size pitches or with full size goals at 10 or 11 - at least not in my son's league.
So what to do?
Set a long term goal and aim for it. By long term I don't mean Euro 2012. I mean 2030.
We still haven't built the promised Football Centre at Burton so we have no national centre to train players and coaches. this is one example of a lack of long term direction.
Be very clear on what the end goal is and what the milestones are along the way and what needs to be in place.
Some of those milestones will cost money and some will not bear fruit for many years. Some will mean sticking with coaches long term and not picking names. Sorry but why is Stuart Pearce coaching the U21s? is it because he is an experienced youth coach or because he is "pyscho".
Ultimately I think we have to lose our obsession with so called "passion" and replace it with planning. it will be boring and you won't be able to see it on the touchline.
Make Roy Hodgson Director of Football Development. Let him appoint a team of coaches and don't worry if you have never heard of them.
Spend money on getting the young English players at pro clubs at every level to work on a tactics and systems of play that England will be playing. Whatever that style is stick with it.
Repairing English football from the bottom up may take 10 years+ if done properly.
In the short term I would repair the whole spine of the side.
Stick Hart in goal and let him build 2 years experience for the next tournament Stick with Ashley Cole, Terry and sadly probably Johnson (who is there) Ditch Lampard - he has had enough goes at major tournaments and wont be any better in 2 years. Put Gerrard in the middle - either behind Rooney or alongside someone like Parker Bring Parker in Ditch Upson, Carragher, Heskey, James, Green, King, Beckham, Ferdinand for good - no comebacks.
The manager I am undecided on at the moment, had he had the squad we had in 2006 we may have done better, this was a poor squad in my opinion, BUT far too many mistakes both in selection and tactics at this tournament and we do have 2 gifted ENGLISH managers in Redknapp and Hodgson.
a snippet from a conversation about yoot football on the cheslea site:
things have improved massively thanks to the influx of foreign players. Joe Cole was essentially the first of a new breed of skillful youngsters along with others such as Defoe at the same time. You see youth teams from all divisions and they are producing prodigiously talented youngsters that can do incredible things with ball.
However and it is a big however we are stuck in the dark ages footballing wise in this country. We still value the blood and guts, up and at 'em, bulldog spirit where we applaud a cruching tackle more than a clever defence splitting pass or a skillful turn. While this works fine in the premiership, where referees are far more lenient and allow a more physical game, those very skills (and I use the term loosely) retard the development of thoughtful, intelligent footballers in lieu of players like Kevin Davies or Michael Brown. Players like that inhibit the performances of skillful players and prevent the development of smaller more skillful clever players Witness Arsenal's performance's over the past few seasons, the adage that they can't cope on a cold rainy night in the North West is entirely true but also entirely unreasonable. It is exactly games like the one that injured Robben at Ewood Park that ruin slight skillful players. Ozil for instance could never have developed in the premiership as he wouldn't have the physical attributes. Whilst 50% or more of teams still play the direct style of football in England, the vast majority of youngsters are effectively schooled to be able to cope with the physical demands.
I look at Josh McEachran and I see a player that already has the skill and brain to play Premiership football but physically he is a mile away (if he will ever make it). If he was playing in Spain for Barca, he would already be playing for Barca B against adults being given protection by the referee and therefore being given time for his skills to flourish. In this country he plays for the reserves against some cloggy first team rejects or against some muscle bound 3rd division player in the League Cup with studs flying everywhere and being bumped off the ball.
The basic problem with English football rests with the physicality of the game, whilst we play to different rules than those on the continent we will never produce sufficiently skillful players that need to rely on their intelligence and skill to win games rather than be physically dominant.
good post from rothko .... i agree totally cos the mentality of most english football fans is they wanna see some carthorse give 110% and get stuck in, over the likes of (to use recent charlton players as an example) lloyd sam and dennis rommedahl ... oh they don't track back or get stuck in enough blah blah blah , that's what the water carriers like semedo are therefore ..... i say that as a naturally gifted footballer who never liked to get stuck in cos it hurt but i was very pleasing on the eye!
and look at the centre halfs, both made for dealing with Heskey and Davies, not strikers with an ounce of movement (Hence why Terry is destroyed everytime by Torres for fun). Both need intelligent quick defenders next to them to make them look good
More info regarding amount of qualified coaches. (from the Guardian). "Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588."
Might of course be completely unrelated to our failure to produce sufficient numbers of good technical players, but startingly figures non the less.
All this talk of longterm planning scare the be jeezus out of me, if i live to the expected lifespan of a UK male, i only have another 5 world cups in me, maybe six if they keep me on a life support machine, its all right for you youngens out there!!!
Well the Germans realised they were going the wrong way in 2000 after they screwed up in the Euros, ten years on, there one of the best teams there. No patience, part of the problem, lets spend £6m on a quick fix, instead of £6m on the coaching system to get it right for a generation or two
In amongst all this doom and gloom can I just point out that Italy and France have also been dumped out of the World cup and didn't even get past the group stages. It happens.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]Well the Germans realised they were going the wrong way in 2000 after they screwed up in the Euros, ten years on, there one of the best teams there. No patience, part of the problem, lets spend £6m on a quick fix, instead of £6m on the coaching system to get it right for a generation or two
I don't think Capello is the problem as we have ballsed up under any number of managers. He did however make quite a few errors IMHO in squad and team selection. Losing his best defender (rio injured) and then his best striker (rooney away with the fairies) didn't help either nor did the rest of the team playing rubbish.
What I find strange is that we have gone for two very successful overseas managers but neither of whom have managed in England or managed a national team.
We started to have a structured and continuity with McClaren understudying Sven but then when McClaren flopped we ditched the baby with the bath water
[cite]Posted By: Saga Lout[/cite]In amongst all this doom and gloom can I just point out that Italy and France have also been dumped out of the World cup and didn't even get past the group stages. It happens.
but they both reached the final last time and have both won the world cup in the last 12 years.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]I agree with Steve to the extent that boys Sunday football is not where the problem is. Most kids are picked up by 10 ie before they play 11 a-side. And BTW the kids don't play 11 a-side on full size pitches or with full size goals at 10 or 11 - at least not in my son's league.
Fair enough but I don't think that's true across the whole country.
When clubs do pick them up, how many years do they play on smaller pitches with smaller goals?
In Holland Kids play 7 aside until they are 15 and they are technically as good on the ball than any team.
There is a real problem with youth develpoment in this country,
Kids may not play on full size pitches with full size goals but watch how often individual players touch the ball.
The Dutch way is the way forward and until this is implemented we will not achieve anything, this is only my opinion.
Sir Trevor Brooking went out and looked at the dutch system he agreed it was a good system but he wanted to adapt it, The adaption was that we changed nothing absolutely nothing.
That is what is wrong with this countries FA an unwillingness to change. Kenny Sansom was on talk sport and he just said that the head of Coaching at the FA held a seminar for ex pros and the first thing he said was "The Brazilians have got it wrong"
WTF
There is so much wrong with football in this country, SKY is at the heart of it in the higher reaches and levels of football but it is not the only problem.
In short term whilst any over haul is taking place,
there needs to be a review of this world cup
where did it go wrong
why did the players look so dis jointed
why did they look unfit
what happend to the high tempo game cappello said we would play
Why did we contiually play people out of postion
What happened within the camp to make the team seperated.
We then need to say thankyou to
John Terry
Steven Gerrard
Frank Lampard
Mathew Upson
Emile Heskey
Rio Ferdinand
But your time is up you will no longer be first choice for this team.
We then need a manager with the balls to build a team of young motivated players and create a team for the next world cup.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]Well the Germans realised they were going the wrong way in 2000 after they screwed up in the Euros, ten years on, there one of the best teams there.
Whilst i agree with you that they've done well, there's also a touch of fortune about their campaign. Before the tournament they weren't very hopeful of doing anything, Podolski and Klose had shocking domestic seasons and weren't even guaranteed to start. Add to that if Ballack hadn't been injured then Ozil who's been their best player wouldn't even be playing.
[cite]Posted By: Saga Lout[/cite]In amongst all this doom and gloom can I just point out that Italy and France have also been dumped out of the World cup and didn't even get past the group stages. It happens.
but they both reached the final last time and have both won the world cup in the last 12 years.
Meanwhile England...............
Exactly! As I was saying "it happens" even to teams with a much better pedigree than ours.
All well and good but how long would you all be prepared to stick with that team while it was learning but losing games?
Unless we say "this is the squad regardless" we will be back to picking the big names again.
And are we now saying that the last lot don't care, lack passion, no skills, too rich, too pampered, don't sing anthem but this lot, who have all come thru the same system, will be different? If so why
Personally I'd keep some of the older players but would pick a style of play and a style of player and only select players who fit that style regardless of age.
So, in simple terms, if you are going to play a passing game then pick players who can pass and move.
If you are going to play a defensive game and hit teams on the break then pick players for that system.
If you are going to play direct then pick players for that.
Comments
Earlier on, someone mentioned that the teams of some of the big nations (Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Netherlands, you might add France) have very few players plying their trade in their own leagues. This is the other side of the Sky money - it means that English players are never bothered to leave the country and don't mind sitting on the bench all season. Why should Arsenal have to weaken their squad when Johnny Englishman would rather play for Bolton than Bayern? No player is forced to sit on the bench. They choose to go to these clubs instead of clubs who would play them, and they restrict themselves to a very small collection of possible clubs - something a Dutch player would never do.
People want results now and for that reason we'll just go about chopping and changing managers handing out huge contracts for 4 years
Football in essence should be seen as a National sport that has national benefits to the community and the country. It is something that belongs to the nation and as such the leaders of the FA and Premier Leauge are custodian leaders. I.e. looking after something that belongs to us all.
In the absence of anything that even remotely looks like good governance football is run solely as a business, and designed to make as much money as is possible for those who run it. Even the high salaries for players are designed to keep them complicit in the fraud that football.
The Germans and most of our European counterparts have a very different perception on football and its place, including ownership of clubs, dissemination of monies from the top of the game, investment in youth football, and the development of technically gifted footballers, who from an early age are encouraged to play the game, enjoy the game, rather than being driven to aspire only to be Rooney or Gerrard.
Is this why Johnson couldn’t pass a ball, or Terry kept being dragged out of position, of course not. There is however in my view, a link between this and a culture where football in England knows the cost of everything, but the value of nothing.
England struggled internationally long before the Premier league. We failed to qualify in 74 and 78 and again in 94 just after the prem started.
The Premier League and high wages do not make good players bad. Tevez played very well for Argentina last night but he is a well paid "pampered" Prem League star.
Paying the current squad more or less will not make them better players.
However the high wages here plus IMHO an insular culture means that very few UK players are willing to travel abroad to play.
The same applies to our coaches. Interestingly Steve McClaren has been a success coaching in Holland - a country with a much better reputation for coaching/tactics etc then England. Booby Robson was also a success there. Roy Hodgson was a success overseas but had to wait 10 years to get another chance in England after "failing" at Blackburn.
Yet there are very few English managers at the very top of our game and we don't back the ones we do have by giving them time or allowing them to play football. Results win over style.
We still prefer the "name" manager over the qualified coach. Why else did Shearer get the job at Newcastle over Houghton. The latter is a long serving, qualified coach who has now had success but he would never had got the job while NCFC were in the Prem as he wasn't a Geordie or a name.
Our expectations of our players (see the RTE v BBC thread) are far too high, unrealistic and that is partly due to our media but we have thought we were going to win every tournament we've played in since I can remember. The influence of the media on who is picked ("Chris Who?") means that good but unfashionable plauers don't get a chance while Walcott in 2006 do.
We underrate other teams ie the current German side because they don't play in the Prem. They were a better team than us and they had better players. We do not have "world Class" players.
I agree with Steve to the extent that boys Sunday football is not where the problem is. Most kids are picked up by 10 ie before they play 11 a-side. And BTW the kids don't play 11 a-side on full size pitches or with full size goals at 10 or 11 - at least not in my son's league.
So what to do?
Set a long term goal and aim for it. By long term I don't mean Euro 2012. I mean 2030.
We still haven't built the promised Football Centre at Burton so we have no national centre to train players and coaches. this is one example of a lack of long term direction.
Be very clear on what the end goal is and what the milestones are along the way and what needs to be in place.
Some of those milestones will cost money and some will not bear fruit for many years. Some will mean sticking with coaches long term and not picking names. Sorry but why is Stuart Pearce coaching the U21s? is it because he is an experienced youth coach or because he is "pyscho".
Ultimately I think we have to lose our obsession with so called "passion" and replace it with planning. it will be boring and you won't be able to see it on the touchline.
Make Roy Hodgson Director of Football Development. Let him appoint a team of coaches and don't worry if you have never heard of them.
Spend money on getting the young English players at pro clubs at every level to work on a tactics and systems of play that England will be playing. Whatever that style is stick with it.
In the short term I would repair the whole spine of the side.
Stick Hart in goal and let him build 2 years experience for the next tournament
Stick with Ashley Cole, Terry and sadly probably Johnson (who is there)
Ditch Lampard - he has had enough goes at major tournaments and wont be any better in 2 years.
Put Gerrard in the middle - either behind Rooney or alongside someone like Parker
Bring Parker in
Ditch Upson, Carragher, Heskey, James, Green, King, Beckham, Ferdinand for good - no comebacks.
The manager I am undecided on at the moment, had he had the squad we had in 2006 we may have done better, this was a poor squad in my opinion, BUT far too many mistakes both in selection and tactics at this tournament and we do have 2 gifted ENGLISH managers in Redknapp and Hodgson.
things have improved massively thanks to the influx of foreign players. Joe Cole was essentially the first of a new breed of skillful youngsters along with others such as Defoe at the same time. You see youth teams from all divisions and they are producing prodigiously talented youngsters that can do incredible things with ball.
However and it is a big however we are stuck in the dark ages footballing wise in this country. We still value the blood and guts, up and at 'em, bulldog spirit where we applaud a cruching tackle more than a clever defence splitting pass or a skillful turn. While this works fine in the premiership, where referees are far more lenient and allow a more physical game, those very skills (and I use the term loosely) retard the development of thoughtful, intelligent footballers in lieu of players like Kevin Davies or Michael Brown. Players like that inhibit the performances of skillful players and prevent the development of smaller more skillful clever players Witness Arsenal's performance's over the past few seasons, the adage that they can't cope on a cold rainy night in the North West is entirely true but also entirely unreasonable. It is exactly games like the one that injured Robben at Ewood Park that ruin slight skillful players. Ozil for instance could never have developed in the premiership as he wouldn't have the physical attributes. Whilst 50% or more of teams still play the direct style of football in England, the vast majority of youngsters are effectively schooled to be able to cope with the physical demands.
I look at Josh McEachran and I see a player that already has the skill and brain to play Premiership football but physically he is a mile away (if he will ever make it). If he was playing in Spain for Barca, he would already be playing for Barca B against adults being given protection by the referee and therefore being given time for his skills to flourish. In this country he plays for the reserves against some cloggy first team rejects or against some muscle bound 3rd division player in the League Cup with studs flying everywhere and being bumped off the ball.
The basic problem with English football rests with the physicality of the game, whilst we play to different rules than those on the continent we will never produce sufficiently skillful players that need to rely on their intelligence and skill to win games rather than be physically dominant.
"Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588."
Might of course be completely unrelated to our failure to produce sufficient numbers of good technical players, but startingly figures non the less.
I don't think Capello is the problem as we have ballsed up under any number of managers. He did however make quite a few errors IMHO in squad and team selection. Losing his best defender (rio injured) and then his best striker (rooney away with the fairies) didn't help either nor did the rest of the team playing rubbish.
What I find strange is that we have gone for two very successful overseas managers but neither of whom have managed in England or managed a national team.
We started to have a structured and continuity with McClaren understudying Sven but then when McClaren flopped we ditched the baby with the bath water
but they both reached the final last time and have both won the world cup in the last 12 years.
Meanwhile England...............
When clubs do pick them up, how many years do they play on smaller pitches with smaller goals?
There is a real problem with youth develpoment in this country,
Kids may not play on full size pitches with full size goals but watch how often individual players touch the ball.
The Dutch way is the way forward and until this is implemented we will not achieve anything, this is only my opinion.
Sir Trevor Brooking went out and looked at the dutch system he agreed it was a good system but he wanted to adapt it, The adaption was that we changed nothing absolutely nothing.
That is what is wrong with this countries FA an unwillingness to change. Kenny Sansom was on talk sport and he just said that the head of Coaching at the FA held a seminar for ex pros and the first thing he said was "The Brazilians have got it wrong"
WTF
There is so much wrong with football in this country, SKY is at the heart of it in the higher reaches and levels of football but it is not the only problem.
In short term whilst any over haul is taking place,
there needs to be a review of this world cup
where did it go wrong
why did the players look so dis jointed
why did they look unfit
what happend to the high tempo game cappello said we would play
Why did we contiually play people out of postion
What happened within the camp to make the team seperated.
We then need to say thankyou to
John Terry
Steven Gerrard
Frank Lampard
Mathew Upson
Emile Heskey
Rio Ferdinand
But your time is up you will no longer be first choice for this team.
We then need a manager with the balls to build a team of young motivated players and create a team for the next world cup.
Wether that is Cappello i dont know.
Whilst i agree with you that they've done well, there's also a touch of fortune about their campaign. Before the tournament they weren't very hopeful of doing anything, Podolski and Klose had shocking domestic seasons and weren't even guaranteed to start. Add to that if Ballack hadn't been injured then Ozil who's been their best player wouldn't even be playing.
Exactly! As I was saying "it happens" even to teams with a much better pedigree than ours.
I think you can add a few more to that list, including David James - probably our best player on Sunday, but surely too old now.
Maybe we should "do a Germany" and create a completely new team with an average age of 23?
Hart
Richards--Terry--Dawson--Cole
Walcott--Milner--Rodwell--A.Johnson
Rooney--Agbonlahor
Nice idea in theory but who are these England standard young players under the age of (say) 30?
Joe Hart
Adam Johnson
Wayne Rooney (who quite evidently doesn't want to be there)
Darren Bent
Agbonlahoor (?spelling)
Aaron Lennon (again doesn't look enamoured with playing for England)
I'm struggling now!
Hart
Richard - Onuoha - Dawson - Cole
Moses - Gerrard - Rodwell - A Johnson
Rooney - Walcott
Bench with the likes of Wilshere and maybe even Shelvey on it
Richards
Johnson
Wallcot
Gibbs
Wiltshire
Rodwell
Jagileka
Rooney
Milner
Onhura
Dawson
Johnson or Richards they are both as overrated as each other (big problem position)
Terry
The fella that Man Utd just signed from Fulham
Cole
Milner
Parker
Gerrard
Johnson
Rooney
Walcott
Unless we say "this is the squad regardless" we will be back to picking the big names again.
And are we now saying that the last lot don't care, lack passion, no skills, too rich, too pampered, don't sing anthem but this lot, who have all come thru the same system, will be different? If so why
Personally I'd keep some of the older players but would pick a style of play and a style of player and only select players who fit that style regardless of age.
So, in simple terms, if you are going to play a passing game then pick players who can pass and move.
If you are going to play a defensive game and hit teams on the break then pick players for that system.
If you are going to play direct then pick players for that.
Just play them in their best position - i.e left Centre back and centre midfield.
Joe Hart
A. Cole
W.Rooney
G.Johnson
J. Milner
J.Cole
J.Defoe
M Dawson
K.Gibbs
Jagielker
A johnson
T Walcott
U21 squad
Keepers
Feilding
Loach
Defenders
R. Bertrand
M.Macienne
M.Richards
K.Naughton
C.Smalling
J.Tomkins
K.Walker
Mid
L Cattermole
J.Cork
D.Gosling
V.Moses
J.Rodwell
T Cleverly
F Delph
H Lansbury
J Wilshire
Strikers
A Carrol
D.Sturridge
A. Delfonseo
D.Welbeck