But as i said above if the system is so bad and produces all these lazy, greedy, passionless, donkey's why are the U21 players going to be any different?
Biggest problem is a complete lack of talented midfield playmakers. Scholes and Gazza in the last 20 years. Joe Cole is the nearest now and rather than being encouraged to run a game from central midfield, he's shunted out wide. Spain have so many they can't even fit Fabregas in. If you can't control midfield, everything else suffers. Just look at Charlton. We haven't had one since Murphy and look where we are.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]But as i said above if the system is so bad and produces all these lazy, greedy, passionless, donkey's why are the U21 players going to be any different?
The players that are passionless Henners are those billy big bollocks players, John Terry and steven Gerrard couldnt even look at eachother at the end of that game yesterday.
The system we use is wrong but it will take years to change, in the mean time
we should have a manger who is looking to build a team for 2014 not 2012 that team should go through the qulifiers to get experience and if they get through should take that experience on board.
As nice as a complete overhaul sounds, our young players aren't good enough. I'm all for giving: Dawson, Jagielka, Cahill, Rodwell, Milner, Gibbs/Baines, Sturridge and Wilshere plenty of game time over the next few years but the German youth were ready to go this far and with this experience will probably be one of the favourites for the next World Cup but I just don't see that with our youth.
England have only ever been to 3 SEMI FINALS ever (Euros and the World Cup).
Two of those were at home.
England has only ever made one final.
That's
England have almost never beaten a top team at the finals stage of a major championship
Since the FA deigned to take part in the World Cup that's 28 tournaments. For the 26 outside of England there's one fourth placed finish to show for it. Turkey has a third place!
Yet going into every tournament people and the media take the view that England have a great chance of winning it.
The numbers don't stack up. There's always one player who gets the blame, or one that should have gone that makes all the difference, or they're getting too much money or play more youngsters or wear red jerseys, or whatever, but nobody wants to actually lay out the statistics and say that outside of England, England is not a tip top side, and never has been.
1 semi final in 26 tournaments. If the Czecs went into every tournament thinking there was a fair chance they'd win it, we'd think they'd been drinking to much Pilsner, yet nobody bats an eylid here.
i agree with mclovin. It's time we faced up to the cold hard truth. We, as a nation, as a gene pool do not produce world class players like the top 6 or 7 footballing nations. Certainly not as regularly. Systems, tactics etc can help bridge the gap but unfortunately you can't make a silk purse out of a cows arse or whatever and you can't buy in what you don't have for the national side.
How long will the media give the National teams reconstruction ? how long before the media think of their free passes to Moan Utd---Goonerville etc etc etc.
We need to look at the effects of the foreign players in leagues teams youth set ups. We have been told it dosnt make any differance as the best playes will stand out and England will benefit --- utter and total KAK
A few years ago we could name 6 goalkeepers for the national side that would all be head and shoulders in front of the crap we have now. Why ?Its far easier for pro teams to just get an already finished product than look at 10 years of bringing a player through ? why ? because of PLAYER power and the fact they can naff off at the drop of a hat.
People players from the EU can not be stopped from playing anywhere they want in the EU. So we cant say only 6/7/9 10 players can be from outside the UK--- but how does it help the national team if all 17 players in a side are not English ?
As for its the coaching well Fabio aint from our coaching training etc and he thinks Heskey was the answer (shit question then) or Upson / Johnson are International defenders !!
As for Rooney being injured what total and utter bolloxxxx he started and played (walked about with a strop on)every game.
If we are given the time then play the kids , but will they be given the time ?
I agree with some of the talk about youth football but those who are putting the blame down to this are blinkered. It is only a very small part of the problem, generally our youth sides do well in international competition (U17s recently, U21 reaching Euro final last year [losing to Germany 4-0] and the Semi in 2007). The problem doesn't seem to be coaching the kids and getting them to a good quality to under 21 level, it seems there is little progression after that. Let's look at the team's that played the final last year
England
Scott Loach
Martin Cranie
Micah Richards
Nedum Onuoha
Kieran Gibbs
Fabrice Muamba
Lee Cattermole
Mark Noble (c)
James Milner
Adam Johnson
Theo Walcott
Germany
Manuel Neuer
Andreas Beck
Benedikt Höwedes
Jérôme Boateng
Sebastian Boenisch
Mats Hummels
Fabian Johnson
Gonzalo Castro
Sami Khedira (c)
Mesut Özil
Sandro Wagner
4 players started yesterday's game for Germany that played in the U21 final last year, England had 1.
[cite]Posted By: colthe3rd[/cite]I agree with some of the talk about youth football but those who are putting the blame down to this are blinkered. It is only a very small part of the problem, generally our youth sides do well in international competition (U17s recently, U21 reaching Euro final last year [losing to Germany 4-0] and the Semi in 2007). The problem doesn't seem to be coaching the kids and getting them to a good quality to under 21 level, it seems there is little progression after that. Let's look at the team's that played the final last year
England
Scott Loach
Martin Cranie
Micah Richards
Nedum Onuoha
Kieran Gibbs
Fabrice Muamba
Lee Cattermole
Mark Noble (c)
James Milner
Adam Johnson
Theo Walcott
Germany
Manuel Neuer
Andreas Beck
Benedikt Höwedes
Jérôme Boateng
Sebastian Boenisch
Mats Hummels
Fabian Johnson
Gonzalo Castro
Sami Khedira (c)
Mesut Özil
Sandro Wagner
4 players started yesterday's game for Germany that played in the U21 final last year, England had 1.
In fairness Neuer is only playing because their first choice keeper died and the second choice was injured last month. And Ozil is only playing because Ballack is injured. So that's 2 enforced changes.
But i do see your point that Germany were willing to give youngsters a chance. We just say "they've got no experience" and i said last night that we should have taken and played Johnson on the left. He'd have been a 100% improvement on Gerrard playing there.
I do think we have an attitude of "fit the best 11 players into the team" rather than "pick the 11 players who best suit our system"
hence Gerrard on the left, heskey on to bring the best out of Rooney.
Spain dropped Raul as the manager didn't think he helped the team. They don't play Fabregas out of position just to accommodate a good player. The system comes first.
[cite]Posted By: colthe3rd[/cite]I agree with some of the talk about youth football but those who are putting the blame down to this are blinkered. It is only a very small part of the problem, generally our youth sides do well in international competition (U17s recently, U21 reaching Euro final last year [losing to Germany 4-0] and the Semi in 2007). The problem doesn't seem to be coaching the kids and getting them to a good quality to under 21 level, it seems there is little progression after that.
Maybe the answer to that is we do well at under 17/under 21 because our competitors are unable to compete physically at that age, having concentrated on the basic skills involved? As players get older and develop the physical strength to compete against us we've no answer because our whole game plan is based on a high tempo, up and at 'em stategy.
If Messi were English he'd have been binned by his club at 13 for being too small. Instead he gets sent to Barca who nuture him, developing his own game and skills rather than get him to play the same way as every else thinks he should be (and also stick him on growth hormones too but he's still only a little 'un...)
The trouble with planning so far into the future (30 years has been mentioned), is that you are guessing what football is going to be like then. pitches, formations, number of subs, pace of game, fitness of players are continually changing.
take the success of the dutch finishing runners up in 74 and 78. based on the ajax 'total football' system. where did it get holland in 82 and 86?
nowhere, they didn't even qualify.
imo, you have to base a system around the best players available at the time.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]We need to look at the effects of the foreign players in leagues teams youth set ups. We have been told it dosnt make any differance as the best playes will stand out and England will benefit --- utter and total KAK
A few years ago we could name 6 goalkeepers for the national side that would all be head and shoulders in front of the crap we have now. Why ?Its far easier for pro teams to just get an already finished product than look at 10 years of bringing a player through ? why ? because of PLAYER power and the fact they can naff off at the drop of a hat.
Why don't English players go abroad to play football? They could replace these foreigners coming to England if they're so good. Why don't they drop down a bit to get on the first team? Why do they have to be protected in order for them to do the best thing for their careers?
All these posts on future teams is still just fiddling with the deck chairs on the Titanic, Until we have a huge number of well trained youngsters, which as we started this thread by saying, needs a change at school and junior club level coaching, we will still have a team of players who though more youthful, will still lack the ability to be world beaters, IMHO
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]I do think we have an attitude of "fit the best 11 players into the team" rather than "pick the 11 players who best suit our system"
hence Gerrard on the left, heskey on to bring the best out of Rooney.
Spain dropped Raul as the manager didn't think he helped the team. They don't play Fabregas out of position just to accommodate a good player. The system comes first.
Agree though Heskey was the one exception, brought in because Capello felt he suited the team.
I think Cappello must have been thinking we'd still be a stronger team with Gerrard out of position, than say Johnson or Downing, a left footed left winger out there. Johnson has no real international experience, and did Downing even deserve to be in the team. What other left footed left wingers are even close to England standard?
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]How long will the media give the National teams reconstruction ? how long before the media think of their free passes to Moan Utd---Goonerville etc etc etc.
We need to look at the effects of the foreign players in leagues teams youth set ups. We have been told it dosnt make any differance as the best playes will stand out and England will benefit --- utter and total KAK
A few years ago we could name 6 goalkeepers for the national side that would all be head and shoulders in front of the crap we have now. Why ?Its far easier for pro teams to just get an already finished product than look at 10 years of bringing a player through ? why ? because of PLAYER power and the fact they can naff off at the drop of a hat.
People players from the EU can not be stopped from playing anywhere they want in the EU. So we cant say only 6/7/9 10 players can be from outside the UK--- but how does it help the national team if all 17 players in a side are not English ?
As for its the coaching well Fabio aint from our coaching training etc and he thinks Heskey was the answer (shit question then) or Upson / Johnson are International defenders !!
As for Rooney being injured what total and utter bolloxxxx he started and played (walked about with a strop on)every game.
If we are given the time then play the kids , but will they be given the time ?
Spain's league has far less work permit protection than ours. They have a tax system that allows foreign players to pay less, so it attracts more of them. Yet they've produced a generation of footballers better than any other European country ever has IMO. Italy played France in the final of the last World Cup and both countries have domestic leagues stacked out with foreigners.
In the 70s virtually every player at English clubs, was a Brit, but England failed to even qualify for a single tournament. It's easy to blame "the foreigners" stopping this production line of England wonderkids that we never get to see but would be winning the World Cup if they got a chance. It's an attractive cop out for the likes of TalkSport, but it isn't the answer.
I think we need to accept that we have crap players and need a manager who gets the best out of crap players. mmm I wonder who's available at the moment who fits the bill.
The way forward is to dock these greedy morons wages then they might take their finger out their arses and start playing well for their country.
Ive got nothing against Capello but surely a manager that can speak good English could help? Its a very basic skill but it could make a difference. I haven't got a clue what he's saying in interviews so no doubt the players don't know what he's saying either!
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]I still think its down to bad managment, although clearly we could do with better coaching too
don't play players out of form
don't play players out of position
don't play an unbalanced squad
don't play a system regardless of players you have availble
don't fail to change when something clearly isn't working
don't continue to play big names who are totally under performing
Agree completely.
[cite]Posted By: davy[/cite]The way forward is to dock these greedy morons wages then they might take their finger out their arses and start playing well for their country.
Ive got nothing against Capello but surely a manager that can speak good English could help? Its a very basic skill but it could make a difference. I haven't got a clue what he's saying in interviews so no doubt the players don't know what he's saying either!
Why would their club dock them wages because they perform badly for their country? A national side doesn't pay it's players!
And Capello's language skills were not a problem when we won 9 out of 10 qualifiers were they? His team selection and formation and his inability to change things were the problem, not his ability to speak English well!
Have you seen Keegan on ITV? Looking fairly rough. I've not got much of a clue what he's banging on about. He seems to know the words, but the order that he deploys them confuses me.
I think what gets a lot of people irate is the ridiculous contract and salary the manager is on which seems to be unrelated to success, we are lumbered once more with a foreign coach, but one with no tournament experience, so why employ him or pay him so much - its insanity that money be wasted like this.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]I think what gets a lot of people irate is the ridiculous contract and salary the manager is on which seems to be unrelated to success, we are lumbered once more with a foreign coach, but one with no tournament experience, so why employ him or pay him so much - its insanity that money be wasted like this.
Lets get a cheaper English managers with loads of Champions League experience.......
Comments
The players that are passionless Henners are those billy big bollocks players, John Terry and steven Gerrard couldnt even look at eachother at the end of that game yesterday.
The system we use is wrong but it will take years to change, in the mean time
we should have a manger who is looking to build a team for 2014 not 2012 that team should go through the qulifiers to get experience and if they get through should take that experience on board.
2014 is far too soon. We need a long term plan not just the next world cup.
No "in the meantime".
Ten years ago when we were moaning about Euro 2000 no doubt Terry was the U21 player who would come in and save us.
Johnson
Terry
Rio
Cole
Carrick
Hargreaves
Lennon
Lampard
Johnson/Walcott
Rooney.
As nice as a complete overhaul sounds, our young players aren't good enough. I'm all for giving: Dawson, Jagielka, Cahill, Rodwell, Milner, Gibbs/Baines, Sturridge and Wilshere plenty of game time over the next few years but the German youth were ready to go this far and with this experience will probably be one of the favourites for the next World Cup but I just don't see that with our youth.
England have only ever been to 3 SEMI FINALS ever (Euros and the World Cup).
Two of those were at home.
England has only ever made one final.
That's
England have almost never beaten a top team at the finals stage of a major championship
Since the FA deigned to take part in the World Cup that's 28 tournaments. For the 26 outside of England there's one fourth placed finish to show for it. Turkey has a third place!
Yet going into every tournament people and the media take the view that England have a great chance of winning it.
The numbers don't stack up. There's always one player who gets the blame, or one that should have gone that makes all the difference, or they're getting too much money or play more youngsters or wear red jerseys, or whatever, but nobody wants to actually lay out the statistics and say that outside of England, England is not a tip top side, and never has been.
1 semi final in 26 tournaments. If the Czecs went into every tournament thinking there was a fair chance they'd win it, we'd think they'd been drinking to much Pilsner, yet nobody bats an eylid here.
Johnson Dawson Lescott Cole
Milner Rodwell Carrick
Agbonlahor Rooney Johnson
We need to look at the effects of the foreign players in leagues teams youth set ups. We have been told it dosnt make any differance as the best playes will stand out and England will benefit --- utter and total KAK
A few years ago we could name 6 goalkeepers for the national side that would all be head and shoulders in front of the crap we have now. Why ?Its far easier for pro teams to just get an already finished product than look at 10 years of bringing a player through ? why ? because of PLAYER power and the fact they can naff off at the drop of a hat.
People players from the EU can not be stopped from playing anywhere they want in the EU. So we cant say only 6/7/9 10 players can be from outside the UK--- but how does it help the national team if all 17 players in a side are not English ?
As for its the coaching well Fabio aint from our coaching training etc and he thinks Heskey was the answer (shit question then) or Upson / Johnson are International defenders !!
As for Rooney being injured what total and utter bolloxxxx he started and played (walked about with a strop on)every game.
If we are given the time then play the kids , but will they be given the time ?
England
Scott Loach
Martin Cranie
Micah Richards
Nedum Onuoha
Kieran Gibbs
Fabrice Muamba
Lee Cattermole
Mark Noble (c)
James Milner
Adam Johnson
Theo Walcott
Germany
Manuel Neuer
Andreas Beck
Benedikt Höwedes
Jérôme Boateng
Sebastian Boenisch
Mats Hummels
Fabian Johnson
Gonzalo Castro
Sami Khedira (c)
Mesut Özil
Sandro Wagner
4 players started yesterday's game for Germany that played in the U21 final last year, England had 1.
Milner
Richards
Johnson
walcott
In fairness Neuer is only playing because their first choice keeper died and the second choice was injured last month. And Ozil is only playing because Ballack is injured. So that's 2 enforced changes.
But i do see your point that Germany were willing to give youngsters a chance. We just say "they've got no experience" and i said last night that we should have taken and played Johnson on the left. He'd have been a 100% improvement on Gerrard playing there.
hence Gerrard on the left, heskey on to bring the best out of Rooney.
Spain dropped Raul as the manager didn't think he helped the team. They don't play Fabregas out of position just to accommodate a good player. The system comes first.
Maybe the answer to that is we do well at under 17/under 21 because our competitors are unable to compete physically at that age, having concentrated on the basic skills involved? As players get older and develop the physical strength to compete against us we've no answer because our whole game plan is based on a high tempo, up and at 'em stategy.
If Messi were English he'd have been binned by his club at 13 for being too small. Instead he gets sent to Barca who nuture him, developing his own game and skills rather than get him to play the same way as every else thinks he should be (and also stick him on growth hormones too but he's still only a little 'un...)
take the success of the dutch finishing runners up in 74 and 78. based on the ajax 'total football' system. where did it get holland in 82 and 86?
nowhere, they didn't even qualify.
imo, you have to base a system around the best players available at the time.
Why don't English players go abroad to play football? They could replace these foreigners coming to England if they're so good. Why don't they drop down a bit to get on the first team? Why do they have to be protected in order for them to do the best thing for their careers?
Until we have a huge number of well trained youngsters, which as we started this thread by saying, needs a change at school and junior club level coaching, we will still have a team of players who though more youthful, will still lack the ability to be world beaters, IMHO
I think Cappello must have been thinking we'd still be a stronger team with Gerrard out of position, than say Johnson or Downing, a left footed left winger out there. Johnson has no real international experience, and did Downing even deserve to be in the team. What other left footed left wingers are even close to England standard?
Spain's league has far less work permit protection than ours. They have a tax system that allows foreign players to pay less, so it attracts more of them. Yet they've produced a generation of footballers better than any other European country ever has IMO. Italy played France in the final of the last World Cup and both countries have domestic leagues stacked out with foreigners.
In the 70s virtually every player at English clubs, was a Brit, but England failed to even qualify for a single tournament. It's easy to blame "the foreigners" stopping this production line of England wonderkids that we never get to see but would be winning the World Cup if they got a chance. It's an attractive cop out for the likes of TalkSport, but it isn't the answer.
don't play players out of form
don't play players out of position
don't play an unbalanced squad
don't play a system regardless of players you have availble
don't fail to change when something clearly isn't working
don't continue to play big names who are totally under performing
Ive got nothing against Capello but surely a manager that can speak good English could help? Its a very basic skill but it could make a difference. I haven't got a clue what he's saying in interviews so no doubt the players don't know what he's saying either!
Agree completely.
Why would their club dock them wages because they perform badly for their country? A national side doesn't pay it's players!
And Capello's language skills were not a problem when we won 9 out of 10 qualifiers were they? His team selection and formation and his inability to change things were the problem, not his ability to speak English well!
As Chris said his English is not the problem. Otherwise we would have been world beaters under Sven and Keegan.
Lets get a cheaper English managers with loads of Champions League experience.......