My carrot was happy with just some dirt and some water. Neither carrot nor cow knew what their end would look like and neither suffered discomfort, so why is it OK to eat one and not the other.
By that logic though, surely if you won't eat cow then you shouldn't eat carrot? Or anything at all.
Eating meat is natural, the way in which we do it isn't. I'm as guilty as anyone, and live in ignorant bliss regarding most of my food. I have thought about going veggie but am far too fussy already, or at least that's how I try and justify it to myself.
If veggies ruled the World and we didn't eat meat, the habitat retained to allow wild and domesticated animals to exist would be replaced by sterile areas dedicated to edible crops. So the result of interfering with nature could be less diversity of habitat, fewer animals and less animal diversity. Would the veggies let the remaining animals eat their crops or would they control them by killing them or letting them starve to death. The correct action for veggies would be to let their children starve instead.
It takes about 2 acres to grow a cow. You can get a lot of beans on that area. I've been vegetarian all my life, not for any moral reason I just dont like meat. I never had a problem with thoughs who choose to eat meat, I come from a family of meat eaters. I'm happy to eat peanuts and I guess you and others are happy to munch on pigs nuts.
Well mankind is natural, mankind is a product of nature, and that particular force of nature is apparantly going to empty the oceans of fish in 40 years at the rate we're fishing the seas. Of course thats OK because a natural organism ..mankind..is the dominant force on this here planet, and the actions of mankind on the other creatures we share the Earth with does not lead to unpredictability, but certainty (?)...yeah right.
I think that's a bit besides the point, no one's said that that's the natural order of things and most would agree we go about things the wrong way.
As humans we have a hell of a lot to answer for. Not just that but the traditional medicine market, desolation of forests whether for palm oil, wood or grazing areas, 'luxury' goods like fur and ivory, the exotic pet trade etc, etc. None of that is natural in any way, I'd say most or all of them are far worse and have greater impact, and are greater examples of humanity's supposed intelligence. Especially when all we're doing at the end the day is killing ourselves off.
Compared to them, us eating meat is relatively trivial. We need protein, iron or whatever in our diets, and have canines. That doesn't justify the way we process our meat though, and only the truly ignorant or idiotic would disagree. It's a shame that for many species that even if we did try to find the correct balance, it's probably too late.
I was responding to the debate about the forces of nature sharing life around 'efficiently as possible' and saying that mankind is a force of nature too. I'm not sure I agree that the impact of the meat industry is 'relatively trivial'. However, if we follow through that the actions of mankind are the ebb and flow of nature (as in man is a natural being), like the actions of, say, a lion; then we should also recognise that another human force is the ability to think, and indeed debate here. For a lot of vegetarians they have thought about it, and think eating meat and fish is wrong. They also hope others want to think too, or at least engage in a debate. It is not about vegetarians wanting to assert some kind of moral high ground, but if meat eaters invoke arguments related to morality, then vegetarians are entitled to invoke counter arguements.
Surely everything we do is natural? Its not as if we do anything supernatural? The question ought to be whether what we do is sustainable, good for us, good for subsequent generations etc. Does making animals extinct and destroying the environment matter? Well actually, it impacts on us in loads of ways. Nature will go its own merry way, we can't control it as much as we think. If we all get wiped out by a meteor, or a disease, or from climate change (whther it was exacerbated by us or not) the universe won't end, life will continue, and nobody will be around to care.
Very interesting thread. I have just two points to make:
1. Too many vegetarians make the mistake of trying to convince everyone not to eat meat. I would just ask people to eat meat responsibly I.E. to buy it from a reputable butcher's who can tell you where it's come from and so where you could (if you wanted to) trace it to and see how their treatment of animals rates. Supermarket meat is out of the question if you want to buy consume meat 'responsibly.'
2. We have canines because we eat meat - this does not mean that our bodies are 'designed' to eat meat, just that we have evolved this way as a result of eating meat. Studies of the human stomach would suggest that we are meant to be herbivores. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract but a human's is much longer like a typical herbivore.
Conversation at half time in upper west the other day. Customer: Cheese and onion pasty please. Staff: We've run out. Customer: Well have you got anything vegetarian? Staff: Chicken tikka pasty? Customer: Forget it.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="jimmymelrose">2. We have canines <u>because</u> we eat meat - this does not mean that our bodies are 'designed' to eat meat, just that we have evolved this way as a result of eating meat. Studies of the human stomach would suggest that we are meant to be herbivores. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract but a human's is much longer like a typical herbivore.</blockquote> But who are our closest relations? The great apes, and they all eat meat. We may have evolved that way, but if so it was a long, long time ago.
2. We have canines because we eat meat - this does not mean that our bodies are 'designed' to eat meat, just that we have evolved this way as a result of eating meat. Studies of the human stomach would suggest that we are meant to be herbivores. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract but a human's is much longer like a typical herbivore.
But who are our closest relations? The great apes, and they all eat meat. We may have evolved that way, but if so it was a long, long time ago.
Hmm, the taxanomic group containing the order carnivora split from the group that eventually evolved into primates (also rodents and rabbits) about 100 million years ago, so in the early cretaceous period. that is plenty of time for us to eat what we want and adapt accoridngly, whereas those that went for purely meat diets evolved to have shorter intestines etc. Just because we can eat meat, doesn't mean we have to!
similarly, bears, red pandas and giant pandas are carnivores and are adapted to eat meat... bears and red pandas are omnivorous and giant panads are vegetarian. They has to make further adaptations to be able to eat what they do
2. We have canines because we eat meat - this does not mean that our bodies are 'designed' to eat meat, just that we have evolved this way as a result of eating meat. Studies of the human stomach would suggest that we are meant to be herbivores. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract but a human's is much longer like a typical herbivore.
But who are our closest relations? The great apes, and they all eat meat. We may have evolved that way, but if so it was a long, long time ago.
Hmm, the taxanomic group containing the order carnivora split from the group that eventually evolved into primates (also rodents and rabbits) about 100 million years ago, so in the early cretaceous period. that is plenty of time for us to eat what we want and adapt accoridngly, whereas those that went for purely meat diets evolved to have shorter intestines etc. Just because we can eat meat, doesn't mean we have to!
similarly, bears, red pandas and giant pandas are carnivores and are adapted to eat meat... bears and red pandas are omnivorous and giant panads are vegetarian. They has to make further adaptations to be able to eat what they do
I may be reading this wrong, but surely that shows we were and have evolved as omnivores? Meat for many primates acts as a very important source of nutrition that can't be found elsewhere. Tarsiers, albeit distant relatives, live entirely off it.
On the rhino theme, I'd always thought Sumatrans were the most endangered (and coolest) but found out about the Javan last week. Pretty depressing reading.
Yum yum. Vegetarian pie at Brighton is the best pie I have had ever, not even best of a pie at a football ground.
Good to hear there's at least one club that recognises that not all football fans want to eat gristle pie. Can't say I'm over optimistic about the chances of getting some veggie fare at Barnsley.
Seems that we now have fantastic staduims but are still unable to offer or serve a good selection of food/real ale beer on the day.
Isn't it about time clubs offered a decent food option, it's just the same old tired crisps,burgars,chips.
No excuse really, design a stadium with facilitys to provide people with a choice And include a vegeatrian option which isn't just a bit of old cheese and limp salad.
Can I just say, I love those cheese and onion pasties you get at football where the filling is the temperature of molten lava - and all for a bargain price.
yeah sillav, by no means is it a step too far, in fact in my opinion it makes a lot more sense to be vegan than vegetarian, because if you accept you care about animals by being vegetarian, then you should definitely care about the abuse to animals done by the dairy and egg industries
I'm veggie and thinking of going vegan or is that a step to far?
I think it depends on how strictly Vegan you want to be (and also how often you eat out and where you live). A lot of bread products will have milk/butter/eggs, and when eating out things are cooked in butter and all that. Then there's sweets. But as far things you cook for yourself at home, I think it's absolutely doable.
I should add I'm veggie not vegan, but I'm lactose intolerant so I don't usually have products with dairy. I do still eat eggs because I love them and they have important fatty acids and whatnot. But like @AddickUpNorth said, it can be a natural progression.
Comments
I've been vegetarian all my life, not for any moral reason I just dont like meat. I never had a problem with thoughs who choose to eat meat, I come from a family of meat eaters.
I'm happy to eat peanuts and I guess you and others are happy to munch on pigs nuts.
As humans we have a hell of a lot to answer for. Not just that but the traditional medicine market, desolation of forests whether for palm oil, wood or grazing areas, 'luxury' goods like fur and ivory, the exotic pet trade etc, etc. None of that is natural in any way, I'd say most or all of them are far worse and have greater impact, and are greater examples of humanity's supposed intelligence. Especially when all we're doing at the end the day is killing ourselves off.
Compared to them, us eating meat is relatively trivial. We need protein, iron or whatever in our diets, and have canines. That doesn't justify the way we process our meat though, and only the truly ignorant or idiotic would disagree. It's a shame that for many species that even if we did try to find the correct balance, it's probably too late.
I'm not sure I agree that the impact of the meat industry is 'relatively trivial'. However, if we follow through that the actions of mankind are the ebb and flow of nature (as in man is a natural being), like the actions of, say, a lion; then we should also recognise that another human force is the ability to think, and indeed debate here.
For a lot of vegetarians they have thought about it, and think eating meat and fish is wrong. They also hope others want to think too, or at least engage in a debate. It is not about vegetarians wanting to assert some kind of moral high ground, but if meat eaters invoke arguments related to morality, then vegetarians are entitled to invoke counter arguements.
What if there was a McCartney's to compete with McDonald's? To sign the petition go to::
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/795/896/083/appeal-to-paul-mccartney-to-set-up-a-veggie-burger-chain-in-lindas-memory/ …
; )
1. Too many vegetarians make the mistake of trying to convince everyone not to eat meat. I would just ask people to eat meat responsibly I.E. to buy it from a reputable butcher's who can tell you where it's come from and so where you could (if you wanted to) trace it to and see how their treatment of animals rates. Supermarket meat is out of the question if you want to buy consume meat 'responsibly.'
2. We have canines because we eat meat - this does not mean that our bodies are 'designed' to eat meat, just that we have evolved this way as a result of eating meat. Studies of the human stomach would suggest that we are meant to be herbivores. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract but a human's is much longer like a typical herbivore.
Customer: Cheese and onion pasty please.
Staff: We've run out.
Customer: Well have you got anything vegetarian?
Staff: Chicken tikka pasty?
Customer: Forget it.
But who are our closest relations? The great apes, and they all eat meat. We may have evolved that way, but if so it was a long, long time ago.
similarly, bears, red pandas and giant pandas are carnivores and are adapted to eat meat... bears and red pandas are omnivorous and giant panads are vegetarian. They has to make further adaptations to be able to eat what they do
On the rhino theme, I'd always thought Sumatrans were the most endangered (and coolest) but found out about the Javan last week. Pretty depressing reading.
Maybe I was a little overexcited not had a pie for months. But think we should start a campaign to get then t the vlley
Isn't it about time clubs offered a decent food option, it's just the same old tired crisps,burgars,chips.
No excuse really, design a stadium with facilitys to provide people with a choice And include a vegeatrian option which isn't just a bit of old cheese and limp salad.
Yum yum.
I should add I'm veggie not vegan, but I'm lactose intolerant so I don't usually have products with dairy. I do still eat eggs because I love them and they have important fatty acids and whatnot. But like @AddickUpNorth said, it can be a natural progression.