Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Old players weren't as good as today's players because they smoked and ate bad food, so I've only included two and Welsh comes in because we haven't had a decent left winger in my lifetime. Goalkeepers are about the same now as they always have been.
Good point. Lucky that George Best and Johann Cruyff and Socrates didn't play for Charlton - all far too unhealthy to be included in any meaningful dream team.
Sorry, 'old' being pre-1960.
(Best was probably the most overrated player to play football by what I've heard)
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
Don't want to get into too much debate, but Hales didn't really make it at top level and was also not capped, yet you are OK with him.
Mendonca gets in because he made 38,000 of us proud to be Charlton fans on that glorious May afternoon .. and gave us a summer of looking forward to playing in the Premier League.
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
Problem with that is that would surely mean including someone like John Barnes.
Is it the best players when they played for us, or the level they reached at their peak, whoever they were playing for at the time?
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
Don't want to get into too much debate, but Hales didn't really make it at top level and was also not capped, yet you are OK with him.
Mendonca gets in for because he made 38,000 of us proud to be Charlton fans on that glorious May afternoon .. and gave us a summer of looking forward to playing in the Premier League.
True, but I used to hear people talk of Hales as the best striker outside the top flight and that had he had a better temperament he could have been in the running for a cap - not sure. Either way, my original choices were Bent and DiCanio and I'll stand by them.
Seems you're going down the legends route Dave rather than the best team? Or maybe mixing it up? My advice would be stick to the best players - the team you would put out for a cup final against Man Utd tomorrow - easier and more objective that way maybe. Good luck anyway!
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Seems you're going down the legends route Dave rather than the best team? Or maybe mixing it up? My advice would be stick to the best players - the team you would put out for a cup final against Man Utd tomorrow - easier and more objective that way maybe. Good luck anyway!
Yes, a bit of a mix really. After all, legends become legends partly because they are good players (not all, I grant you).
Choosing a team exclusively using the 'best players' process is a tricky one. If you look at the remit FourFourTwo gave us, it talks (amongst other things) about 'golden moment/season'. Those things will not always come from the best players.
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
Only injury prevented him proving himself in the Premiership - we'll never know.
On the Mendonca v Bent controversy, they both actually have the same Goals per Game ratio whilst playing for us. Though it's fair to say that Bent was generally playing against better quality defenders, so you could surmise that he was the better striker. That said, Mendonca's career was hampered by injury. As for whether he could cut it in the Prem. Well, he did get a hat trick in his first ever Premiership game. He's still a worthy winner for me just on the basis of the Wembley game. Looking at the stats though, there's a case for saying that Firmani or Summers were better.
Note that Brown and Hewie feature in both lists because of their exceptional versatility ... and because I want to give Steve Brown two chances of making the final cut (hint, hint).
Any glaring omissions?
*sits back and waits for the tirade of 'humorous' suggestions*
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite] Similarly Firmani played most or all of his games for us in the second division.
Poppycock!
Years Club App (Gls)
1950–1955 Charlton Athletic 112 (51)
1955–1958 Sampdoria 63 (52)
1958–1961 Internazionale 82 (48)
The above shows his record in the top-flight for Charlton and also his record in Serie A after transferring for a then British record fee.
He returned to Charlton in 1964 by then in the second division, where in 2 separate spels he scored 38 in 65 games.
Also capped 3 times by Italy.
[cite]Posted By: AshTray[/cite]Hales I can understand, but not Mendonca. A good second tier striker, but never made it in the Premier and would never have been capped. Did well against lower level defenders. Surely DiCanio or Bent would be better. This is a 'dream team' not a legends XI.
Don't want to get into too much debate, but Hales didn't really make it at top level and was also not capped, yet you are OK with him.
Mendonca gets in because he made 38,000 of us proud to be Charlton fans on that glorious May afternoon .. and gave us a summer of looking forward to playing in the Premier League.
Yeh, I wrestled with my conscience and left out Hales for the reasons you mention.
Having said that, he might have made more of an impression in the top flight had he not gone to relegation threatened Derby and West Ham.
In different circumstances I'm sure at his peak he could have done a job for a top flight team.
Whatever, Killer will always be my all time favourite Charlton player - he lit up the 70's
Bartram (never saw him but you don't get a statue, a bar, a turnstyle and a road named after you for nowt!)
Humphrey (narrowly above Billy Bonds and Luke Young)
Rufus (The best centre half of my time overall)
Hewie (Great athlete and Mr Versatility. He even started 4 games as goalkeeper!)
Powell (Chris)
Simonsen (He would blend well with the better players in this side)
Parker (He was something else in 2003/4 and gets in for that alone)
Kinsella (non-stop energy and inspirational pips Mike Bailey)
Glover ( My favourite and good enough to have once been the most expensive winger transferred at £80K. Pace, dribbling and crossing all top notch.)
Eddie Firmani (top class and still doing it when I saw him in 63/4)
Darren Bent (His Charlton record speaks for itself but he would complement Firmani so gets in above Killer and Mendonca I narrowly missed Leary so have not considered him)
JH is an absolute shoe in surely? That he never got near an England squad is one of the biggest travesty's in football and based purely on him being one of ours and not playing for Liverpool, etc. A real case of the managers of the days avoiding the "Chris Who?" headlines.
Last CB place has to be between Hewie and Shirliff IMO. Never saw the former so very difficult to judge for me but Shirt's was one of those players you'd really want to be in the trenches with if it came to it and for that reason alone he'd get my vote.
They said you could choose a realistic formation. I reckon you should go with 3 at the back - there isn't a stand out second centre back and the omission of a Webster/Shirtliff/Costa will create space for an extra Firmani/Peacock/Kinsella. Humphrey at right back I reckon.
If we are talking about people who produced golden moments and not necesarily the best player then I would switch from Costa to Shirtliff because of the St Andrews play off v Leeds.
I would also more strongly make the case for Colin Walsh on the left because of the first goal back at The Valley.
Comments
Sorry, 'old' being pre-1960.
(Best was probably the most overrated player to play football by what I've heard)
Don't want to get into too much debate, but Hales didn't really make it at top level and was also not capped, yet you are OK with him.
Mendonca gets in because he made 38,000 of us proud to be Charlton fans on that glorious May afternoon .. and gave us a summer of looking forward to playing in the Premier League.
Is it the best players when they played for us, or the level they reached at their peak, whoever they were playing for at the time?
True, but I used to hear people talk of Hales as the best striker outside the top flight and that had he had a better temperament he could have been in the running for a cap - not sure. Either way, my original choices were Bent and DiCanio and I'll stand by them.
Seems you're going down the legends route Dave rather than the best team? Or maybe mixing it up? My advice would be stick to the best players - the team you would put out for a cup final against Man Utd tomorrow - easier and more objective that way maybe. Good luck anyway!
GK - Keily
RB - Humphrey
LB - Powell
CB - Rufus
CB - Brown
RM - Jensen
LM - Robinson
CM - Kinsella
CM - Parker
ST - Bent
ST - Mendonca
Best Food: Hartlepool and their jumbo hot dogs.
Yes, a bit of a mix really. After all, legends become legends partly because they are good players (not all, I grant you).
Choosing a team exclusively using the 'best players' process is a tricky one. If you look at the remit FourFourTwo gave us, it talks (amongst other things) about 'golden moment/season'. Those things will not always come from the best players.
if it was last year it would have to be wycombe and their sausages in crusty baguette
Only injury prevented him proving himself in the Premiership - we'll never know.
Goals Games GpG
Bent 37 79 0.47
DiCanio 5 33 0.15
Firmani 89 177 0.5
Flanagan 120 396 0.3
Hales 168 368 0.46
Leaburn 66 376 0.18
Leary 163 403 0.4
Mendonca 45 96 0.47
Summers 104 182 0.57
Treacy 52 164 0.32
[edit - bugger, I did try to square this up, honest]
With Bartram, Rufus and Powell firmly ensconced, we only need a right back and another central defender.
Here are the proposed short lists:
RB Bonds, Humphrey, Hewie, Brown, Curtis, Young
CB Costa, Brown, Shirtliff, Hewie, Webster, Elliott (Paul)
Note that Brown and Hewie feature in both lists because of their exceptional versatility ... and because I want to give Steve Brown two chances of making the final cut (hint, hint).
Any glaring omissions?
*sits back and waits for the tirade of 'humorous' suggestions*
Poppycock!
Years Club App (Gls)
1950–1955 Charlton Athletic 112 (51)
1955–1958 Sampdoria 63 (52)
1958–1961 Internazionale 82 (48)
The above shows his record in the top-flight for Charlton and also his record in Serie A after transferring for a then British record fee.
He returned to Charlton in 1964 by then in the second division, where in 2 separate spels he scored 38 in 65 games.
Also capped 3 times by Italy.
My first Charlton hero - he gets my vote
Sorry Ash, but only somebody who didn't see him play or an idiot would say that
Kiely
Brown Rufus Costa Powell
Jensen Parker Kinsella G Stuart
Bent Mendonca
Yes, didn't want to get off topic, but Best was unbelievable.
What's the old line? "Think of the best player you ever saw. Well, George Best was ten times better, son."
CB - Costa
Yeh, I had those in my original list and will stick with them (although Paul Elliott is a good shout}
Dave: - Stevie Brown, bless his Charlton heart, was a journeyman, you can't have him in the best 11 IMO.
Yeh, I wrestled with my conscience and left out Hales for the reasons you mention.
Having said that, he might have made more of an impression in the top flight had he not gone to relegation threatened Derby and West Ham.
In different circumstances I'm sure at his peak he could have done a job for a top flight team.
Whatever, Killer will always be my all time favourite Charlton player - he lit up the 70's
Can only go with the players i know, still not a bad team though....By the way, what was the link ;-)
CB - Webster
For me
Bartram (never saw him but you don't get a statue, a bar, a turnstyle and a road named after you for nowt!)
Humphrey (narrowly above Billy Bonds and Luke Young)
Rufus (The best centre half of my time overall)
Hewie (Great athlete and Mr Versatility. He even started 4 games as goalkeeper!)
Powell (Chris)
Simonsen (He would blend well with the better players in this side)
Parker (He was something else in 2003/4 and gets in for that alone)
Kinsella (non-stop energy and inspirational pips Mike Bailey)
Glover ( My favourite and good enough to have once been the most expensive winger transferred at £80K. Pace, dribbling and crossing all top notch.)
Eddie Firmani (top class and still doing it when I saw him in 63/4)
Darren Bent (His Charlton record speaks for itself but he would complement Firmani so gets in above Killer and Mendonca I narrowly missed Leary so have not considered him)
Last CB place has to be between Hewie and Shirliff IMO. Never saw the former so very difficult to judge for me but Shirt's was one of those players you'd really want to be in the trenches with if it came to it and for that reason alone he'd get my vote.
They said you could choose a realistic formation. I reckon you should go with 3 at the back - there isn't a stand out second centre back and the omission of a Webster/Shirtliff/Costa will create space for an extra Firmani/Peacock/Kinsella. Humphrey at right back I reckon.
I would also more strongly make the case for Colin Walsh on the left because of the first goal back at The Valley.
I don't know what they were like as players but their numbers were pretty decent and were achieved in the top flight (mostly).
(League apps only)
Gordon Hurst - 1946-58 - 369 app 75 gls - Winger
Billy Kiernan - 1949-61 - 378 app 89 gls - Winger