Have to say the gate looks a lot bigger than the numbers quoted for those B'pool matches. I say that taking into account the fact that the published gates were always well light to reduce the sums payable outside the club. I would guess this was taken at one of the biggest gates of the season. Average Valley gate in 67-68 was officially 13,945 with Palace, Millwall and QPR attracting 20,000+. Doesn't look like any of them though. Crowds were lower in 67-68 and only Millwall was above 20,000. In 68-69 we had bigger gates with Villa, Cardiff, Middlesbrough and Millwall all over 20,000 and Palace and Derby over 30,000. Derby maybe?
I think you may well be right; for some reason, the game against Derby attracted 30,115 on 18 January 1969 (2-0; Treacy, Tees). The crowd appears to be well wrapped up for winter, though the sunshine is unusually bright. Derby in the previous two seasons attracted only 9.034 and 12,078.
Have to say the gate looks a lot bigger than the numbers quoted for those B'pool matches. I say that taking into account the fact that the published gates were always well light to reduce the sums payable outside the club. I would guess this was taken at one of the biggest gates of the season. Average Valley gate in 67-68 was officially 13,945 with Palace, Millwall and QPR attracting 20,000+. Doesn't look like any of them though. Crowds were lower in 67-68 and only Millwall was above 20,000. In 68-69 we had bigger gates with Villa, Cardiff, Middlesbrough and Millwall all over 20,000 and Palace and Derby over 30,000. Derby maybe?
I think you may well be right; for some reason, the game against Derby attracted 30,115 on 18 January 1969 (2-0; Treacy, Tees). The crowd appears to be well wrapped up for winter, though the sunshine is unusually bright. Derby in the previous two seasons attracted only 9.034 and 12,078.
That's the season that Clough's Derby won the league. Sadly, Palace pipped us to 2nd and were promoted. We finished 3rd and missed out - not even play-offs in those days. It was a great match played in a seething atmosphere. Ray Treacy's goal one of the best seen at the Valley.
One thing doesn't quite fit - it wouldn't be as bright and sunny as that any time after 3 p.m. in mid-January; note the shadows of policeman and crowd on the path behind the goal. (Or is the illumination from the floodlights?) If not Derby, who could the opposition be, in white shirts and dark shorts?
Elementary my dear Viewfinder. Look at the angle of the shadows. The sun is quite low in the sky and coming from the South East direction. That means it will be mid afternoon on a winters day. That fits.
Are you absolutely certain we are playing Derby County, Dr Watson? If so, with a crowd that size and Matt Tees playing, it must have been on 18 January 1969. Don't you think the sun would have dipped further after 3 p.m. on such a date, perhaps even been obscured by the heights beyond the south terrace? This rests on your certainty that it must be Derby. Are you quite sure it isn't Northampton Town in their away strip on 6 May 1967, for instance?
Viewfinder you may be right as if the team were wearing black or navy shorts they should appear darker than Charltons in a photograph . So it could be blackpool northampton or perhaps plymouth in an away strip .
We wouldn't have got that big a crowd for Plymouth or the Cobblers though.
I'm not sure it IS Derby Viewfinder, but it made sense when somebody else suggested it. I'm pretty sure the sun angle is ok for just after 3pm on a January day. Don't forget that we had the Cranius4 comet and meteor storm that year, which slightly adjusted the angle of refraction and the specious perpendiculars of the rays. (Ok, I made that last bit up).
Your specious perpendiculars have convinced me, Davo55: Derby County on 18 January 1969 it must be. There's a very famous photograph by the American master, Ansel Adams, showing the moon above a graveyard in Hernandez, New Mexico, sometime in the early 1940s. The date was always in doubt until in the 1970s a division of NASA applied their wizard geometry to the photo and were able to ascertain the precise date!
Well if that's Derby County, they're definitely not wearing their usual black shorts.
I've just looked at the photo again, and see exactly what you mean! - The tone of the shorts isn't dark enough to be black. Now the mystery deepens. The combination of Tees and Gregory limits the date to between 1966-67 and 1969-70 inclusive. It's the size of the crowd that bugs me: looks far more than the 12 or 13,000 typical of that period. Who is our resident expert on playing strips?
Have to say the gate looks a lot bigger than the numbers quoted for those B'pool matches. I say that taking into account the fact that the published gates were always well light to reduce the sums payable outside the club. I would guess this was taken at one of the biggest gates of the season. Average Valley gate in 67-68 was officially 13,945 with Palace, Millwall and QPR attracting 20,000+. Doesn't look like any of them though. Crowds were lower in 67-68 and only Millwall was above 20,000. In 68-69 we had bigger gates with Villa, Cardiff, Middlesbrough and Millwall all over 20,000 and Palace and Derby over 30,000. Derby maybe?
I think you may well be right; for some reason, the game against Derby attracted 30,115 on 18 January 1969 (2-0; Treacy, Tees). The crowd appears to be well wrapped up for winter, though the sunshine is unusually bright. Derby in the previous two seasons attracted only 9.034 and 12,078.
Have to say the gate looks a lot bigger than the numbers quoted for those B'pool matches. I say that taking into account the fact that the published gates were always well light to reduce the sums payable outside the club. I would guess this was taken at one of the biggest gates of the season. Average Valley gate in 67-68 was officially 13,945 with Palace, Millwall and QPR attracting 20,000+. Doesn't look like any of them though. Crowds were lower in 67-68 and only Millwall was above 20,000. In 68-69 we had bigger gates with Villa, Cardiff, Middlesbrough and Millwall all over 20,000 and Palace and Derby over 30,000. Derby maybe?
I think you may well be right; for some reason, the game against Derby attracted 30,115 on 18 January 1969 (2-0; Treacy, Tees). The crowd appears to be well wrapped up for winter, though the sunshine is unusually bright. Derby in the previous two seasons attracted only 9.034 and 12,078.
That's the season that Clough's Derby won the league. Sadly, Palace pipped us to 2nd and were promoted. We finished 3rd and missed out - not even play-offs in those days. It was a great match played in a seething atmosphere. Ray Treacy's goal one of the best seen at the Valley.
One thing doesn't quite fit - it wouldn't be as bright and sunny as that any time after 3 p.m. in mid-January; note the shadows of policeman and crowd on the path behind the goal. (Or is the illumination from the floodlights?) If not Derby, who could the opposition be, in white shirts and dark shorts?
Elementary my dear Viewfinder. Look at the angle of the shadows. The sun is quite low in the sky and coming from the South East direction. That means it will be mid afternoon on a winters day. That fits.
Are you absolutely certain we are playing Derby County, Dr Watson? If so, with a crowd that size and Matt Tees playing, it must have been on 18 January 1969. Don't you think the sun would have dipped further after 3 p.m. on such a date, perhaps even been obscured by the heights beyond the south terrace? This rests on your certainty that it must be Derby. Are you quite sure it isn't Northampton Town in their away strip on 6 May 1967, for instance?
Viewfinder you may be right as if the team were wearing black or navy shorts they should appear darker than Charltons in a photograph . So it could be blackpool northampton or perhaps plymouth in an away strip .
Surely Plymouth, naturally in green, wouldn't be wearing an away strip. But Blackpool and Northampton may have needed to change. Attendances for those games were as follows:
Blackpool: 1966-67 - not in same division 1967-68 - 12,690 1968-69 - 14,906 1969-70 - 13,635
Northampton: 1966-67 - 15,098 (I was there, and it seemed more than that!) 1967-68 - not in same division 1968-69 - ditto 1969-70 - ditto
Have any clubs changed their colours since those days? What did Sheffield United wear in the 60s? We played them in the third round of the FA Cup in January 1967 (lost 0-1) - attendance 24,489.
Thanks, Eddie - I'll certainly have a go when I've got a few hours to spare! - though I notice the site doesn't show away strips.... Doesn't one of Colin Cameron's books list all the line-ups? We want a game in which Tees, Gregory and Hince were playing, along with Keith Peacock (near the corner flag) and Ray Treacy (on the six-yard line), as Misstrolling points out. At first, I thought I recognised Alan Campbell's mop of dark hair on the 'D', though now I think he looks a bit too tall.
Which begs the eternal question: "How tall is he?".
Anyone remember the sweet shop at the bottom of Victoria way near Fosdene primary. Use to sell an amazing amount of stuff. Chocolate bannanas, creamy 'infilled' pocket watches, Red licorice, sherbet dabs etc..... All gobbled up by the time I got to Elliscombe mount flats, before a game of football/cricket before tea!
Ken do you mean the sweetshop at the rear of the school in inverine road they had a soda fountain machine and would also sell us kids a single woodbine or players weights for a penny!
No but I do remember that one, near to the school, this was in Victoria way past Wellington Gardens on the opposite side of the flats. I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
Anyone remember the sweet shop at the bottom of Victoria way near Fosdene primary. Use to sell an amazing amount of stuff. Chocolate bannanas, creamy 'infilled' pocket watches, Red licorice, sherbet dabs etc..... All gobbled up by the time I got to Elliscombe mount flats, before a game of football/cricket before tea!
Ken do you mean the sweetshop at the rear of the school in inverine road they had a soda fountain machine and would also sell us kids a single woodbine or players weights for a penny!
No but I do remember that one, near to the school, this was in Victoria way past Wellington Gardens on the opposite side of the flats. I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
Yes ken I can now remember the shop you had in mind, we were certainly spoilt for choice as there was another sweetshop directly opposite the school in victoria way that was owned by Charlton FA cup winner jack shreeve no wonder most of my generation have lost their teeth! Jacks stepson (or grandson ) does post on this site from time to time.
Anyone remember the sweet shop at the bottom of Victoria way near Fosdene primary. Use to sell an amazing amount of stuff. Chocolate bannanas, creamy 'infilled' pocket watches, Red licorice, sherbet dabs etc..... All gobbled up by the time I got to Elliscombe mount flats, before a game of football/cricket before tea!
Ken do you mean the sweetshop at the rear of the school in inverine road they had a soda fountain machine and would also sell us kids a single woodbine or players weights for a penny!
No but I do remember that one, near to the school, this was in Victoria way past Wellington Gardens on the opposite side of the flats. I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
remember it well ... we lived on the top floor at 99 victoria way, just a few yards away
Well if that's Derby County, they're definitely not wearing their usual black shorts.
I've just looked at the photo again, and see exactly what you mean! - The tone of the shorts isn't dark enough to be black. Now the mystery deepens. The combination of Tees and Gregory limits the date to between 1966-67 and 1969-70 inclusive. It's the size of the crowd that bugs me: looks far more than the 12 or 13,000 typical of that period. Who is our resident expert on playing strips?
I am sorry to be a sad old anorak but I think the year is 68/9 as it looks like there is a slight image of a badge on our shirts ( 67/8 shirts did not have badges ) and in 69/70 we wore red shorts.Could the opposition be villa or perhaps palace as treacy tees gregory peacock all apeared in these games .
Anyone remember the sweet shop at the bottom of Victoria way near Fosdene primary. Use to sell an amazing amount of stuff. Chocolate bannanas, creamy 'infilled' pocket watches, Red licorice, sherbet dabs etc..... All gobbled up by the time I got to Elliscombe mount flats, before a game of football/cricket before tea!
Ken do you mean the sweetshop at the rear of the school in inverine road they had a soda fountain machine and would also sell us kids a single woodbine or players weights for a penny!
No but I do remember that one, near to the school, this was in Victoria way past Wellington Gardens on the opposite side of the flats. I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
Yes ken I can now remember the shop you had in mind, we were certainly spoilt for choice as there was another sweetshop directly opposite the school in victoria way that was owned by Charlton FA cup winner jack shreeve no wonder most of my generation have lost their teeth! Jacks stepson (or grandson ) does post on this site from time to time.
Also remember it I was brought up in Priolo Road, just round the corner.
Anyone remember the sweet shop at the bottom of Victoria way near Fosdene primary. Use to sell an amazing amount of stuff. Chocolate bannanas, creamy 'infilled' pocket watches, Red licorice, sherbet dabs etc..... All gobbled up by the time I got to Elliscombe mount flats, before a game of football/cricket before tea!
Ken do you mean the sweetshop at the rear of the school in inverine road they had a soda fountain machine and would also sell us kids a single woodbine or players weights for a penny!
No but I do remember that one, near to the school, this was in Victoria way past Wellington Gardens on the opposite side of the flats. I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
Yes ken I can now remember the shop you had in mind, we were certainly spoilt for choice as there was another sweetshop directly opposite the school in victoria way that was owned by Charlton FA cup winner jack shreeve no wonder most of my generation have lost their teeth! Jacks stepson (or grandson ) does post on this site from time to time.
Also remember it I was brought up in Priolo Road, just round the corner.
I think Jack used to come to Sherrington school, to help out with football/PE. I left Sherrington and came back as my father's job took him all over the South East. Not sure he was there on my return, but used to see him in the shop opposite Fosedene .
I think the picture is unlikely to be from the epic 2-0 Derby match. That day the weather was not bright - in fact it was very overcast and chilly, with a strong wind that was instrumental in blowing Tees' header that gently hit the post along and then over the line. The crowd is certainly a respectable one, but the 30K for Derby would have shown more definition in the walkways and stairways, and the crowd in the corner between the East and the South is definitely not packed. I'm sure that Derby played as normal in black shorts - they would have no reason to change. The pitch looks late-season.
I think the picture is unlikely to be from the epic 2-0 Derby match. That day the weather was not bright - in fact it was very overcast and chilly, with a strong wind that was instrumental in blowing Tees' header that gently hit the post along and then over the line. The crowd is certainly a respectable one, but the 30K for Derby would have shown more definition in the walkways and stairways, and the crowd in the corner between the East and the South is definitely not packed. I'm sure that Derby played as normal in black shorts - they would have no reason to change. The pitch looks late-season.
The pitch always looked "late season" from October onwards :-)
I think the picture is unlikely to be from the epic 2-0 Derby match. That day the weather was not bright - in fact it was very overcast and chilly, with a strong wind that was instrumental in blowing Tees' header that gently hit the post along and then over the line. The crowd is certainly a respectable one, but the 30K for Derby would have shown more definition in the walkways and stairways, and the crowd in the corner between the East and the South is definitely not packed. I'm sure that Derby played as normal in black shorts - they would have no reason to change. The pitch looks late-season.
Great to have you back, GHF: we've missed your eloquent contributions. As you can see, the wonderful picture above has got us donning our deerstalkers and lighting our pipes in a quest to nail the date and the opposition.
As a photographer myself I have a deep interest in old pictures: their aesthetic qualities, the information they convey, and the memories and atmosphere they evoke. When I first clapped eyes on this picture, I recognised Matt Tees instantly. It's quite wonderful that the physical shape of a distant figure unseen for 45 years can be unmistakably recognisable: the bum sticking out a bit, the angle of the knees, the slender calves - and the shirt outside the shorts! The profile is pure L.S. Lowry, whose blockbuster show including the famous 'Going to the Match' (1953) is on right now at Tate Britain. And Harry Gregory; likewise, I hadn't seen him even in a photo for decades, yet the shape of the shoulders, the way the arms hang, the bulk of the upper body - all speak of Harry Gregory and no-one else.
At first, the mop of dark hair on our man on the 'D' made me think of Alan Campbell, yet the physique doesn't seem to match - wasn't Campbell rather shorter? Mistrollingin has expertly identified Keith Peacock, Ray Treacy, and Paul Hince. I'm also struck by the strict formation of all the players: Pee-Wee has just taken a corner and is scuttling in to join the action; there are defenders on each post, one of whom partly obscures the keeper, while the two opposition wing-halves stand, sentry-like, either side of the 'D'. The six-yard box is occupied by four forwards and five defenders, and rather strangely there is no-one between them and the eighteen-yard line - except the ref, white-haired, standing in precisely the correct position, as if determined by geometry.
As an aside - bonus points to anyone who recognises the ref! For me, the most distinctive ref in those days was bald-headed Roger Kirkpatrick (Market Harborough) who used to lift his knees high and run backwards diagonally across the pitch. I'm sure Fulton Mackay's knees-up referee in one of the 'Porridge' films was based on Kirkpatrick.
The peripheral details in the photo are fascinating too. As if to reinforce the formal order on the pitch, two coppers stand (hands behind backs) perfectly symmetrically either side of the goal on the cinder path. The lino looks on from the near corner flag: concentrating, alert. Note the white-coated refreshment seller with his tray of Kia-Oras on the far touchline, the litter of discarded wrappers round the pitch, the Worthington Green Shield advert, and the angled line of photographers. And in the foreground, bang in the centre, is another Lowry character: an old boy in a flat cap with cauliflower ears and collar turned up. You can imagine the nicotine-stained moustache and the Woodbine stuck to the lower lip.
So much for setting the scene - how about the opposition and the date? At first I was struck by the size of the crowd, which seemed far more than our usual 12 or 13,000, so I looked up the records to match a bumper crowd with a team in black shorts; that's how I deduced Derby in January 1969. But as eagle-eyed Eddie Firmani and Fossdeneboy have pointed out, the tone of the shorts isn't dark enough to be black. And as you rightly say, GHF, a crowd of 30,000 would appear more tightly packed on the east terrace. Despite Davo55's persuading, I was suspicious of such bright sunlight after 3 p.m. on a January day, and you have confirmed - either from copious notes or astonishing memory - that the weather for the Derby game doesn't match that in the photo.
Fossdeneboy has come back with a truly incisive piece of observation: the match must have been in 1968-69 because in the previous season we had no badge on our jerseys, and in the following season we wore red shorts. If we agree that the condition of the pitch indicates late season, I think we've narrowed it down to the following:
22 Feb - Aston Villa (1-1); 21,959 8 Mar - Carlisle (1-1); 19,340 22 Mar - Crystal Palace (1-1); 32,768 25 Mar - Sheffield United (2-1); 13,385 4 Apr - Cardiff (4-1); 21,832 5 Apr - Middlesbrough (2-0); 23,930 15 Apr - Blackburn (4-0); 12,862 19 Apr - Preston (0-1); 16,362
VF - many thanks for your kind greeting and as always for the incisive comments.
I remember the day very clearly, including the inhospitable weather. (On a topical note, may I refer those who rave about Torres' goal last night to Treacy's in the Derby game - ball brought out of defence, flung out to the right and taken forward, crossed hard and low and met on the volley just outside the box - Ray's goal definitely superior !!).
In 1969 the Cardiff game was on Good Friday morning. Blackburn and Sheff Utd were evening games. I think the Villa game would have been too early in the year. The condition of the pitch and the shadow under the terrace suggest late season to me. You mention a white-haired ref - that old dodderer Osborne of Ipswich would fit the bill to a T, and the crowd of 16k for the Preston game on Apr 19, over which he presided, would be in keeping. I can't understand, though, why Preston would not play in their customary white shirts/dark blue shorts. Peacock did not play against Boro (and besides, the inimitable Roger Kirkpatrick was in charge). Palace on 22 Mar - the crowd of 32K would look bigger than the picture shows. That leaves Carlisle (blue shirts, white shorts) on 8 Mar as the only other possibility. My money's on Preston.
VF - many thanks for your kind greeting and as always for the incisive comments.
I remember the day very clearly, including the inhospitable weather. (On a topical note, may I refer those who rave about Torres' goal last night to Treacy's in the Derby game - ball brought out of defence, flung out to the right and taken forward, crossed hard and low and met on the volley just outside the box - Ray's goal definitely superior !!).
In 1969 the Cardiff game was on Good Friday morning. Blackburn and Sheff Utd were evening games. I think the Villa game would have been too early in the year. The condition of the pitch and the shadow under the terrace suggest late season to me. You mention a white-haired ref - that old dodderer Osborne of Ipswich would fit the bill to a T, and the crowd of 16k for the Preston game on Apr 19, over which he presided, would be in keeping. I can't understand, though, why Preston would not play in their customary white shirts/dark blue shorts. Peacock did not play against Boro (and besides, the inimitable Roger Kirkpatrick was in charge). Palace on 22 Mar - the crowd of 32K would look bigger than the picture shows. That leaves Carlisle (blue shirts, white shorts) on 8 Mar as the only other possibility. My money's on Preston.
Surely you've nailed it, GHF! But why do you say Preston weren't in their usual white shirts and dark blue shorts? - The tones in the black & white photo match those colours perfectly. You've solved the mystery: 19 April 1969, last game of the season, Preston North End, lost 0-1, attendance 16,362.
That was a good spot of yours concerning the dates and evening games. At first I wondered if the record book was mistaken in listing games on consecutive days (4 and 5 April, home to Cardiff and Middlesbrough) until I twigged it must have been Good Friday and Easter Saturday. That arrangement appears to have ended in 1979-80, finishing a long tradition of two games scheduled in two days, most notably on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
Looking back over the records I was struck by the wild fluctuations in our attendances in those days. For instance, we started that 1968-69 season on 10 August with 26,912 against Millwall - how's that for a curtain-raiser! - which we lost 3-4 (Treacy, Gregory, Peacock); yet for the next home game, against Birmingham (3-1; Curtis, Keirs, Gregory (pen)), the crowd dropped to 14,220. Later, we recorded only 10,232 against Hull, and 9,270 against Bolton. Attendances picked up as we pushed for promotion, peaking at 32,768 on 22 March against Palace. Were those wide variations due to the relatively small proportion of season ticket holders in the 1960s?
That's another good spot of yours, identifying the ref as Osborne of Ipswich; I'm afraid my memory of refs in those days is eclipsed by the very wonderful and eccentric Roger Kirkpatrick. We were honoured if we ever had the venerable Clive Thomas - I suspect he was assigned mostly to the First Division. But I do remember Norman Burtenshaw (Great Yarmouth), who always brought with him a certain notoriety. Wasn't it he who was once physically attacked at The Den?
In the early 1980s I worked in an admin job at the HQ of London Transport, and one of my colleagues was Roger Wiseman, who was at that time a Football League referee. Wiseman later quit reffing prematurely after he awarded a highly controversial last-minute penalty in a crucial game between Stoke and Wolves; the infuriated crowd invaded the pitch and he got jostled quite roughly. That was the last straw for him.
Wiseman wasn't much liked in the office: he was rather cool and aloof. I don't recall him reffing a Charlton match, but several of my other work colleagues who were Palace supporters had him for a few games at Selhurst Park. They told me they delighted in lustily singing "Who's the bastard in the black?" - and then coming in to work on Monday morning and greeting Wiseman blithely with: "Hello Roger; did you have a good game on Saturday?"
Morning chaps, only problem with it being Preston is the line-up. Burns, Curtis, Kinsey, Campbell, Went, Reeves, Gregory, Crawford, Tees, Moore, Booth Sub Kenning.
How about Bristol City, 20/4/1968. Crowd just under 12,000 looks about right and line-up as follows, Wright, Keirs, Kinsey, Campbell, Went, Reeves, Hince, Tees, Treacy, Gregory, Peacock. Sub Stenson.
Can't agree with you about the tones - navy blue would surely be closer to the black of the ref's kit, rather than lighter than the red of Charlton's shirts.
Also, if you look at that historic kit site, you will see that Preston appeared to wear black shorts at that time. Assuming that that site is correct, of course.
Not convinced about the state of the pitch, either. I seem to remember them often being in quite poor state by Christmas.
Morning chaps, only problem with it being Preston is the line-up. Burns, Curtis, Kinsey, Campbell, Went, Reeves, Gregory, Crawford, Tees, Moore, Booth Sub Kenning.
No Peacock or Hince.
Oh, Christ! That blows our theory right out of the water.
How about Bristol City, 20/4/1968. Crowd just under 12,000 looks about right and line-up as follows, Wright, Keirs, Kinsey, Campbell, Went, Reeves, Hince, Tees, Treacy, Gregory, Peacock. Sub Stenson.
The problem with that suggestion is that according to Fossdeneboy (above) we had no badge on our jerseys in the 1967-68 season - isn't that dot of white on the left breasts of Campbell and Gregory a badge? Or maybe it's merely dust on the photograph!
Can't agree with you about the tones - navy blue would surely be closer to the black of the ref's kit, rather than lighter than the red of Charlton's shirts.
Also, if you look at that historic kit site, you will see that Preston appeared to wear black shorts at that time. Assuming that that site is correct, of course.
Not convinced about the state of the pitch, either. I seem to remember them often being in quite poor state by Christmas.
My money's still on Villa.
Yes, you're right - Looking at the site you linked me to, the Preston shorts are black, though when I view the screen from an oblique angle they mysteriously turn navy blue! But more to the point, Mistrollingin has ruled out Preston because our line-up didn't include Peacock and Hince.
How can we find out what Villa wore as their away strip in the late 60s? Someone must know.
Comments
Blackpool:
1966-67 - not in same division
1967-68 - 12,690
1968-69 - 14,906
1969-70 - 13,635
Northampton:
1966-67 - 15,098 (I was there, and it seemed more than that!)
1967-68 - not in same division
1968-69 - ditto
1969-70 - ditto
Have any clubs changed their colours since those days? What did Sheffield United wear in the 60s? We played them in the third round of the FA Cup in January 1967 (lost 0-1) - attendance 24,489.
http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/English_Football_League/index.html
Which begs the eternal question: "How tall is he?".
I was a late developed as a smoker, waited until I was 11, and bought 2 park drive at a time, the sophisticated times had begun?
I left Sherrington and came back as my father's job took him all over the South East.
Not sure he was there on my return, but used to see him in the shop opposite Fosedene .
I think the picture is unlikely to be from the epic 2-0 Derby match. That day the weather was not bright - in fact it was very overcast and chilly, with a strong wind that was instrumental in blowing Tees' header that gently hit the post along and then over the line. The crowd is certainly a respectable one, but the 30K for Derby would have shown more definition in the walkways and stairways, and the crowd in the corner between the East and the South is definitely not packed. I'm sure that Derby played as normal in black shorts - they would have no reason to change. The pitch looks late-season.
Then it got much better
Now it's very dodgy again
As a photographer myself I have a deep interest in old pictures: their aesthetic qualities, the information they convey, and the memories and atmosphere they evoke. When I first clapped eyes on this picture, I recognised Matt Tees instantly. It's quite wonderful that the physical shape of a distant figure unseen for 45 years can be unmistakably recognisable: the bum sticking out a bit, the angle of the knees, the slender calves - and the shirt outside the shorts! The profile is pure L.S. Lowry, whose blockbuster show including the famous 'Going to the Match' (1953) is on right now at Tate Britain. And Harry Gregory; likewise, I hadn't seen him even in a photo for decades, yet the shape of the shoulders, the way the arms hang, the bulk of the upper body - all speak of Harry Gregory and no-one else.
At first, the mop of dark hair on our man on the 'D' made me think of Alan Campbell, yet the physique doesn't seem to match - wasn't Campbell rather shorter? Mistrollingin has expertly identified Keith Peacock, Ray Treacy, and Paul Hince. I'm also struck by the strict formation of all the players: Pee-Wee has just taken a corner and is scuttling in to join the action; there are defenders on each post, one of whom partly obscures the keeper, while the two opposition wing-halves stand, sentry-like, either side of the 'D'. The six-yard box is occupied by four forwards and five defenders, and rather strangely there is no-one between them and the eighteen-yard line - except the ref, white-haired, standing in precisely the correct position, as if determined by geometry.
As an aside - bonus points to anyone who recognises the ref! For me, the most distinctive ref in those days was bald-headed Roger Kirkpatrick (Market Harborough) who used to lift his knees high and run backwards diagonally across the pitch. I'm sure Fulton Mackay's knees-up referee in one of the 'Porridge' films was based on Kirkpatrick.
The peripheral details in the photo are fascinating too. As if to reinforce the formal order on the pitch, two coppers stand (hands behind backs) perfectly symmetrically either side of the goal on the cinder path. The lino looks on from the near corner flag: concentrating, alert. Note the white-coated refreshment seller with his tray of Kia-Oras on the far touchline, the litter of discarded wrappers round the pitch, the Worthington Green Shield advert, and the angled line of photographers. And in the foreground, bang in the centre, is another Lowry character: an old boy in a flat cap with cauliflower ears and collar turned up. You can imagine the nicotine-stained moustache and the Woodbine stuck to the lower lip.
So much for setting the scene - how about the opposition and the date? At first I was struck by the size of the crowd, which seemed far more than our usual 12 or 13,000, so I looked up the records to match a bumper crowd with a team in black shorts; that's how I deduced Derby in January 1969. But as eagle-eyed Eddie Firmani and Fossdeneboy have pointed out, the tone of the shorts isn't dark enough to be black. And as you rightly say, GHF, a crowd of 30,000 would appear more tightly packed on the east terrace. Despite Davo55's persuading, I was suspicious of such bright sunlight after 3 p.m. on a January day, and you have confirmed - either from copious notes or astonishing memory - that the weather for the Derby game doesn't match that in the photo.
Fossdeneboy has come back with a truly incisive piece of observation: the match must have been in 1968-69 because in the previous season we had no badge on our jerseys, and in the following season we wore red shorts. If we agree that the condition of the pitch indicates late season, I think we've narrowed it down to the following:
22 Feb - Aston Villa (1-1); 21,959
8 Mar - Carlisle (1-1); 19,340
22 Mar - Crystal Palace (1-1); 32,768
25 Mar - Sheffield United (2-1); 13,385
4 Apr - Cardiff (4-1); 21,832
5 Apr - Middlesbrough (2-0); 23,930
15 Apr - Blackburn (4-0); 12,862
19 Apr - Preston (0-1); 16,362
I shall digest the above respond again Sunday.
Villa? Maybe. Sky Blue shorts?
I remember the day very clearly, including the inhospitable weather. (On a topical note, may I refer those who rave about Torres' goal last night to Treacy's in the Derby game - ball brought out of defence, flung out to the right and taken forward, crossed hard and low and met on the volley just outside the box - Ray's goal definitely superior !!).
In 1969 the Cardiff game was on Good Friday morning. Blackburn and Sheff Utd were evening games. I think the Villa game would have been too early in the year. The condition of the pitch and the shadow under the terrace suggest late season to me. You mention a white-haired ref - that old dodderer Osborne of Ipswich would fit the bill to a T, and the crowd of 16k for the Preston game on Apr 19, over which he presided, would be in keeping. I can't understand, though, why Preston would not play in their customary white shirts/dark blue shorts. Peacock did not play against Boro (and besides, the inimitable Roger Kirkpatrick was in charge). Palace on 22 Mar - the crowd of 32K would look bigger than the picture shows. That leaves Carlisle (blue shirts, white shorts) on 8 Mar as the only other possibility. My money's on Preston.
That was a good spot of yours concerning the dates and evening games. At first I wondered if the record book was mistaken in listing games on consecutive days (4 and 5 April, home to Cardiff and Middlesbrough) until I twigged it must have been Good Friday and Easter Saturday. That arrangement appears to have ended in 1979-80, finishing a long tradition of two games scheduled in two days, most notably on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
Looking back over the records I was struck by the wild fluctuations in our attendances in those days. For instance, we started that 1968-69 season on 10 August with 26,912 against Millwall - how's that for a curtain-raiser! - which we lost 3-4 (Treacy, Gregory, Peacock); yet for the next home game, against Birmingham (3-1; Curtis, Keirs, Gregory (pen)), the crowd dropped to 14,220. Later, we recorded only 10,232 against Hull, and 9,270 against Bolton. Attendances picked up as we pushed for promotion, peaking at 32,768 on 22 March against Palace. Were those wide variations due to the relatively small proportion of season ticket holders in the 1960s?
That's another good spot of yours, identifying the ref as Osborne of Ipswich; I'm afraid my memory of refs in those days is eclipsed by the very wonderful and eccentric Roger Kirkpatrick. We were honoured if we ever had the venerable Clive Thomas - I suspect he was assigned mostly to the First Division. But I do remember Norman Burtenshaw (Great Yarmouth), who always brought with him a certain notoriety. Wasn't it he who was once physically attacked at The Den?
In the early 1980s I worked in an admin job at the HQ of London Transport, and one of my colleagues was Roger Wiseman, who was at that time a Football League referee. Wiseman later quit reffing prematurely after he awarded a highly controversial last-minute penalty in a crucial game between Stoke and Wolves; the infuriated crowd invaded the pitch and he got jostled quite roughly. That was the last straw for him.
Wiseman wasn't much liked in the office: he was rather cool and aloof. I don't recall him reffing a Charlton match, but several of my other work colleagues who were Palace supporters had him for a few games at Selhurst Park. They told me they delighted in lustily singing "Who's the bastard in the black?" - and then coming in to work on Monday morning and greeting Wiseman blithely with: "Hello Roger; did you have a good game on Saturday?"
Burns, Curtis, Kinsey, Campbell, Went, Reeves, Gregory, Crawford, Tees, Moore, Booth Sub Kenning.
No Peacock or Hince.
Also, if you look at that historic kit site, you will see that Preston appeared to wear black shorts at that time. Assuming that that site is correct, of course.
Not convinced about the state of the pitch, either. I seem to remember them often being in quite poor state by Christmas.
My money's still on Villa.
How can we find out what Villa wore as their away strip in the late 60s? Someone must know.