With my photographer's hat on, I'm going to throw another curve into the mix. In the old days, black & white film was particularly insensitive to the colour blue; that's why blue skies render as white in old photos. At some point - and I don't know when, but will try to find out - film technology advanced and an orthochromatic emulsion was devised which rendered blue more naturally, more darkly. If our photographer was using non-orthochromatic film, and the opposition's shorts were blue, they will appear much lighter in the print than in real life.
Good comments by one and all - the case remains open. There's a lot of pleasure in these discussions - more to think about 40+ years after the event than will ever be the case with the hype and froth of the Prem.
The time of year : we don't know if the picture was taken at five past three or gone four thirty - that might make a difference. It just seemed to me that the shadows were typical of a watery spring sunshine, and the mainly grassless but quite firm-looking pitch as what we used to see in the last matches of the season.
Shorts : black and not dark blue - I stand corrected. The same colours as Derby, in fact. No clash of colours with ours, so no reason for a kit change .... Villa looks a good shout, and it was a fair old crowd, too.
Refs : looking at some of the names in Home and Away .... Osborne (Ipswich) the Private Godfrey of refs; Mike Kerkhof (Bicester) an Army man (PT instructor?) and a noted disciplinarian; Roger Kirkpatrick (Leicester) - the astonishment the first time we saw him, this stocky figure with arms and legs pumping, racing around at high speed (forwards and backwards) never it seemed in a straight line but covering great arcs of the pitch, dynamic, inexhaustible; Jack Taylor, the butcher from Wolverhampton, strict and fair, a great ref; Clive Thomas (Treorchy) a man not frightened of the limelight (ahem ....) ; Norman Burtenshaw (Gt Yarmouth) - indeed, some notoriety, and in the wrong place at the wrong time when Millwall lost their 59-game home unbeaten run against Plymouth; Maurice Fussey (Retford) - can't remember why, but this tall schoolmasterly figure was known for a certain eccentricity and in most matches he would oblige; Leo Callaghan (Merthyr Tydfil) an excellent ref, and finally Ron Challis (Tonbridge) - a fine ref we saw too seldom because of a potential bias on his part being from just down the road.
Crowds : regarding Millwall games, they were still something of a novelty and for years would be a big draw. The Valley had a vast capacity, and could easily accommodate however many of London's floating football population decided to turn up on the day. The Birmingham game was an evening kick-off, which would have reduced the number of away fans. The other higher attendances - Palace : local derby and a top-of-the-table clash, and the other games either holiday games and/or because we were doing well in the league, at times playing some very good football.
As always, wonderful that there is this chance for us to share some special memories.
Great stuff, GHF - and brilliant character sketches of those old refs! Yes, Osborne as Private Godfrey - now I remember him! Wasn't there a ref even more universally reviled than Burtenshaw? - Perhaps you could give us some more names from that era. You have got dear old Roger Kirkpatrick down to a T - it wasn't just the knees that were pumping, it was the arms too, all pistons and boilers like an early steam locomotive derailed from its tracks yet still whirring across the turf.
Much later, in the early 90s I think, there was a general discontent among fans across the country that refs favoured defenders over attackers in the box and were unfairly parsimonious about awarding penalties. But the landscape shifted when a particular ref began giving pens for the slightest indiscretion - didn't we benefit from him in one game?; certainly he awarded four or five in a single match involving Palace. What was his name?
I think the way forward in narrowing our search for the opposition in the photo is to identify the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together. There can't have been many, because Hince made only 24 appearances in total. Any offers?
A link to Villa's away kits attached - seems to blow my theory out of the water. Unless, unless, unless - wasn't there a time when a clash of shorts colour was ruled out? Thus, they wouldn't have worn white. Over to you, Sherlock!!
A link to Villa's away kits attached - seems to blow my theory out of the water. Unless, unless, unless - wasn't there a time when a clash of shorts colour was ruled out? Thus, they wouldn't have worn white. Over to you, Sherlock!!
I see what you mean. How do you get in to the 'change kits' pages for the other clubs on the site?
I still think we should narrow it down by identifying the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together; there weren't that many. Are the line-ups listed in Cameron's 'Home And Away With Charlton'?
A link to Villa's away kits attached - seems to blow my theory out of the water. Unless, unless, unless - wasn't there a time when a clash of shorts colour was ruled out? Thus, they wouldn't have worn white. Over to you, Sherlock!!
I see what you mean. How do you get in to the 'change kits' pages for the other clubs on the site?
I still think we should narrow it down by identifying the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together; there weren't that many. Are the line-ups listed in Cameron's 'Home And Away With Charlton'?
A link to Villa's away kits attached - seems to blow my theory out of the water. Unless, unless, unless - wasn't there a time when a clash of shorts colour was ruled out? Thus, they wouldn't have worn white. Over to you, Sherlock!!
I see what you mean. How do you get in to the 'change kits' pages for the other clubs on the site?
I still think we should narrow it down by identifying the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together; there weren't that many. Are the line-ups listed in Cameron's 'Home And Away With Charlton'?
There's a link on the club's "home" page.
Apologies, Eddie - I'm being terribly dim. I've got through to the Middlesbrough page (red strips, so they must have changed to play us) - where's the link to the 'change kits' page?
Right now this is getting a bit of teaser, after spending the last 4 hrs looking at various copys of goal & soccer star + Colins home & away I have the following to report
Villa away kit all white with coloured trim Derby would have black trim Preston would probably have hooped socks Blackpool would not have a stripe down their orange shorts The home games that the famous five-Hince,Gregory,Tees,Treacy&Peacock played in as follows- Hudds 17/2/68 -att 13500 Blackurn 1/3/68 att 11759 Bolton 6/4/68 att 10571 Rotherham 12/4/68 att 15082 Brist city 20/4/68 att 11756 Its now back to the drawing board.
A link to Villa's away kits attached - seems to blow my theory out of the water. Unless, unless, unless - wasn't there a time when a clash of shorts colour was ruled out? Thus, they wouldn't have worn white. Over to you, Sherlock!!
I see what you mean. How do you get in to the 'change kits' pages for the other clubs on the site?
I still think we should narrow it down by identifying the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together; there weren't that many. Are the line-ups listed in Cameron's 'Home And Away With Charlton'?
There's a link on the club's "home" page.
Apologies, Eddie - I'm being terribly dim. I've got through to the Middlesbrough page (red strips, so they must have changed to play us) - where's the link to the 'change kits' page?
Alas, VF, you are not being dim at all - I'm afraid that very few change kits are available. Villa's happen to be one that are. (Or is? It's late, red wine, etc.)
Right now this is getting a bit of teaser, after spending the last 4 hrs looking at various copys of goal & soccer star + Colins home & away I have the following to report
Villa away kit all white with coloured trim Derby would have black trim Preston would probably have hooped socks Blackpool would not have a stripe down their orange shorts The home games that the famous five-Hince,Gregory,Tees,Treacy&Peacock played in as follows- Hudds 17/2/68 -att 13500 Blackurn 1/3/68 att 11759 Bolton 6/4/68 att 10571 Rotherham 12/4/68 att 15082 Brist city 20/4/68 att 11756 Its now back to the drawing board.
What a mag!! And you held onto them? What a "star" you are, then!!
Right now this is getting a bit of teaser, after spending the last 4 hrs looking at various copys of goal & soccer star + Colins home & away I have the following to report
Villa away kit all white with coloured trim Derby would have black trim Preston would probably have hooped socks Blackpool would not have a stripe down their orange shorts The home games that the famous five-Hince,Gregory,Tees,Treacy&Peacock played in as follows- Hudds 17/2/68 -att 13500 Blackurn 1/3/68 att 11759 Bolton 6/4/68 att 10571 Rotherham 12/4/68 att 15082 Brist city 20/4/68 att 11756 Its now back to the drawing board.
Fossdeneboy - Many thanks for the article on Treacy and Tees: I'll read that tomorrow. Great work with your research - and a brilliant spot in noticing the stripe on the shorts; I had missed that.
So, those games you have listed are the only ones in which the Famous Five played together. In that case, the white dots on Campbell's and Gregory's left breasts are not badges but specks of dust on the photo, because you've established we didn't have badges in 1967-68. Are we agreed that we can rule out Huddersfield and Blackburn, because they wear blue shirts and would not have needed to change?
Rotherham's and Bristol City's shirt colours are red, so they would have worn their away strips. Have you checked these? EF has linked us to www.historicalkits.co.uk which apparently shows away kits, though I can't find the necessary link from the clubs' home pages; perhaps you'll be able to spot it.
Failing those four, that leaves us with Bolton. Their strip was white shirt, navy shorts, and white socks. Bearing in mind what I said earlier about non-orthochromatic film rendering blue lighter in tone than what we see in life, couldn't Bolton be the team? The only thing that bugs me about this - and please don't tear your hair out! - is that the Bolton game attracted an attendance of only 10,571, and the crowd in the photo implies rather more than that. What was Rotherham's away strip? They drew 15,082, which seems more like it.
Or are we missing something else entirely? Are you quite sure that's Paul Hince lurking behind Harry Gregory? If it's someone else, we've been barking up the wrong tree....
I'm going to sleep on this - if I can! - and will return tomorrow.
Viewfinder as soon as I saw the photo I spotted harry & matt & possibly keith . Paul & Ray i was not sure off and do not forget we also had mike kenning , graham moore & Ray Crawford around the same time
Viewfinder as soon as I saw the photo I spotted harry & matt & possibly keith . Paul & Ray i was not sure off and do not forget we also had mike kenning , graham moore & Ray Crawford around the same time
Aw, don't say that - not after all this research! Tees and Gregory are definite - aren't they? - and surely that's Pee-Wee coming in from the corner. Paul Hince looks OK, but I did wonder about Ray Treacy: was he as tall as that, or was he shorter and stockier? You mention Moore, Crawford and Kenning; I'm pretty sure I'd recognise the first two, though I can't really remember much about Kenning. One thing I've found out: according to the historical kits website, we did have badges in 1967-68.
The other way to approach this problem is through the ref. GlassHalfFull reckons it's Osborne (Ipswich), and he seems to have a record of who reffed each game. Is this info in Cameron's book?
Home and Away does indeed show the referee, and for Rotherham it was .... Mr Osborne !!
BUT - the match was on Good Friday, which would normally mean an early kick-off. How does that fit with the direction of the shadows ?? Regrettably I no longer have my programmes - if any of you elder statesmen can dig out details of the match maybe that will take us a little closer.
I went to all three of the Easter 68 games - Fri Rotherham H, Sat Blackpool A, Tue evening Rotherham A - but for the life of me I cannot recall the Friday kick-off time. Sorry !!
Gents, I wasn't old enough to have seen any of these games but I saw plenty in the 70's and I can't believe this is sub-20,000 gate unless the club were cheating far more in the 60's than they ever did in the 70's? Not only is the high terracing occupied up to the top corners, but the South terrace is well covered as is the South-West corner from where the photo's taken. The Covered End must be fairly full and that would give you 8-10,000. There must be c 5,000 on the South-west and South not to mention a couple of thousand in the West Stand. That would get you to c 15,000 and you could usually double that to include the big terracing. If there was a 30,000-ish gate, they would typically give that out at much closer to 20,000 when I was a lad in the 70's.
Viewfinder as soon as I saw the photo I spotted harry & matt & possibly keith . Paul & Ray i was not sure off and do not forget we also had mike kenning , graham moore & Ray Crawford around the same time
Aw, don't say that - not after all this research! Tees and Gregory are definite - aren't they? - and surely that's Pee-Wee coming in from the corner. Paul Hince looks OK, but I did wonder about Ray Treacy: was he as tall as that, or was he shorter and stockier? You mention Moore, Crawford and Kenning; I'm pretty sure I'd recognise the first two, though I can't really remember much about Kenning. One thing I've found out: according to the historical kits website, we did have badges in 1967-68.
The other way to approach this problem is through the ref. GlassHalfFull reckons it's Osborne (Ipswich), and he seems to have a record of who reffed each game. Is this
Yes the refs info is in Colins book. I think the crowd is around 20000 and to throw another spanner in the works I can remember the late great 50s player Wilf Manion ( boro & England ) saying that boro's change shorts of blue were so old & washed out that they looked white . What about the clothes the crowd are wearing would this help to determine the time of year. To cheer us up here is photo of one local lad Brian Kinsey.
Home and Away does indeed show the referee, and for Rotherham it was .... Mr Osborne !!
BUT - the match was on Good Friday, which would normally mean an early kick-off. How does that fit with the direction of the shadows ?? Regrettably I no longer have my programmes - if any of you elder statesmen can dig out details of the match maybe that will take us a little closer.
I went to all three of the Easter 68 games - Fri Rotherham H, Sat Blackpool A, Tue evening Rotherham A - but for the life of me I cannot recall the Friday kick-off time. Sorry !!
Gents, I wasn't old enough to have seen any of these games but I saw plenty in the 70's and I can't believe this is sub-20,000 gate unless the club were cheating far more in the 60's than they ever did in the 70's? Not only is the high terracing occupied up to the top corners, but the South terrace is well covered as is the South-West corner from where the photo's taken. The Covered End must be fairly full and that would give you 8-10,000. There must be c 5,000 on the South-west and South not to mention a couple of thousand in the West Stand. That would get you to c 15,000 and you could usually double that to include the big terracing. If there was a 30,000-ish gate, they would typically give that out at much closer to 20,000 when I was a lad in the 70's.
Excellent work, gentlemen. Private Godfrey (Osborne from Ipswich) does seem to be the clincher.
The spectators in coats indicate chilly weather, which surely isn't unnatural at Easter. At first, the apparent large size of the crowd bothered me slightly, though we are looking obliquely across the south terrace and therefore can't see the gaps, and as GHF pointed out earlier, the east terrace would be much more densely packed if the attendance was, say, 25,000. The official gate for Rotherham was 15,082, to which we can add a good few thousand if the figures were fiddled - a very cynical suggestion of yours, Cardinal Sin, but perfectly justifiable!
Regarding the position of the sun, I've looked at a large-scale map to see that the ground is positioned on an axis running approximately south-south-west to north-north-east. The shadows - most sharply defined by the copper on the cinder path and by Ray Treacy - indicate that the sun was almost exactly due south. Let's assume we were kicking towards the south end as usual in the first half. Supposing a kick-off time of 3 p.m. and the photo was taken at, say, around 3.30, I would expect the sun to be farther to the west and the shadows to be falling away from our vantage point. But a kick-off of 11.15 and a photo at, say, 11.45 would produce shadows stretching towards our vantage point, as seen in the photo.
Kinsey, Campbell, Tees and Treacy scored in that 4-1 defeat of Rotherham on Good Friday, 12 April 1968. It's fascinating to wonder if we are actually looking at Matt Tees' goal. Has he headed it in directly from Peacock's corner? I assume the ball is just above the defender on the far post - though that could conceivably be a photographer's head, behind! Perhaps the ball hit the bar; or the keeper, falling backwards, parried it away. LincsAddick has a line of contact with Matt Tees - let's ask the man himself if he remembers!
A final attempt to nail this one securely - I have this morning posted a message on the Rotherham fans' forum, asking for confirmation. We await, expectantly....
Thanks, Fossdene, and for the earlier article about Treacy and Tees. My guess for the crowd would be 18-20000. Regarding the time of year, from what can be seen of the trees they look pretty bare.
The back page of the Trust News I was given on Saturday shows the notorious Message To Our Supporters, and this gives a plan of the ground. It seems that the pitch is at an angle of about 45 degrees to the vertical. I know that there are some serious operators on here - if there is a mathematician amongst us, could he/she calculate what that signifies for the copper's shadow : could that be consistent with an early k-o in mid-April ? Sorry - this is getting to be a cross between Cold Case and CSI.
A moment must be taken to say that although his book is left with us as a marvellous work of reference, Colin Cameron would have been the ideal person to adjudicate. Much, much missed.
Thanks, Fossdene, and for the earlier article about Treacy and Tees. My guess for the crowd would be 18-20000. Regarding the time of year, from what can be seen of the trees they look pretty bare.
The back page of the Trust News I was given on Saturday shows the notorious Message To Our Supporters, and this gives a plan of the ground. It seems that the pitch is at an angle of about 45 degrees to the vertical. I know that there are some serious operators on here - if there is a mathematician amongst us, could he/she calculate what that signifies for the copper's shadow : could that be consistent with an early k-o in mid-April ? Sorry - this is getting to be a cross between Cold Case and CSI.
A moment must be taken to say that although his book is left with us as a marvellous work of reference, Colin Cameron would have been the ideal person to adjudicate. Much, much missed.
We were evidently posting at the same time, GHF. Yes, Colin Cameron would have set us right, but we are carrying his torch. There have been a couple of responses already from the Rotherham folk, though nothing conclusive so far....
VF - surely the case has got to crack soon. Back in the summer, when I contacted Matt Tees' family about that thread started by the Scouse author, which ended up as a Tees tribute, someone replied on his behalf and I have just messaged him to request his kind assistance in drawing Matt's further attention to this current issue in case he can shed some light ....
VF - surely the case has got to crack soon. Back in the summer, when I contacted Matt Tees' family about that thread started by the Scouse author, which ended up as a Tees tribute, someone replied on his behalf and I have just messaged him to request his kind assistance in drawing Matt's further attention to this current issue in case he can shed some light ....
Good thinking, GHF: would be really great if Matt himself could confirm it! But I think you cracked it by identifying Private Godfrey - a masterstroke. It would also be neat if a Rotherham fan could identify their individual players; I'll keep checking their forum. One chap has posted to lament that they were relegated that season, under Tommy Docherty, after 18 years in the Second Division!
If it is rotherham look for brian tiler he was in all of docherty's teams. One thing I have learnt from this challege is I am not going to throw away my old charlton progs books & soccer magazines ( wife please note ) .
If it is rotherham look for brian tiler he was in all of docherty's teams. One thing I have learnt from this challege is I am not going to throw away my old charlton progs books & soccer magazines ( wife please note ) .
Thanks for the article - like the bit about Ray Treacy getting a "whisky rub" from Charlie Hall before kick-off! Great archives are made of a multitude of things like that, so don't ever think of disposing of your collection. The wife must be made to understand!
There were 14 responses on the Rotherham fans' forum yesterday, and BINGO! - we've cracked it! By common consent, the famous Brian Tiler is in the middle of the six-yard box, Trevor Swift is the defender on the far post, Neil Hague is towards the far end of the six-yard box, and Johnny Quinn is on the edge of the penalty area, nearest the ref.
One poster commented on the strict formation of the players, which struck us too. Another admitted he didn't know Rotherham's away strip specifically in 1968, but said traditionally they wore pale yellow shirts and pale blue shorts - which fits the black & white tones in the picture.
Charlton Athletic v Rotherham United, 12 April 1968. 4-1 (Kinsey, Campbell, Tees, Treacy). Attendance: 15,082. Referee: Private Godfrey.
Great stuff, gents - all our detailed detective work has been terrific fun. Now, where's the next picture we can get our teeth into?
Comments
Good comments by one and all - the case remains open. There's a lot of pleasure in these discussions - more to think about 40+ years after the event than will ever be the case with the hype and froth of the Prem.
The time of year : we don't know if the picture was taken at five past three or gone four thirty - that might make a difference. It just seemed to me that the shadows were typical of a watery spring sunshine, and the mainly grassless but quite firm-looking pitch as what we used to see in the last matches of the season.
Shorts : black and not dark blue - I stand corrected. The same colours as Derby, in fact. No clash of colours with ours, so no reason for a kit change .... Villa looks a good shout, and it was a fair old crowd, too.
Refs : looking at some of the names in Home and Away .... Osborne (Ipswich) the Private Godfrey of refs; Mike Kerkhof (Bicester) an Army man (PT instructor?) and a noted disciplinarian; Roger Kirkpatrick (Leicester) - the astonishment the first time we saw him, this stocky figure with arms and legs pumping, racing around at high speed (forwards and backwards) never it seemed in a straight line but covering great arcs of the pitch, dynamic, inexhaustible; Jack Taylor, the butcher from Wolverhampton, strict and fair, a great ref; Clive Thomas (Treorchy) a man not frightened of the limelight (ahem ....) ; Norman Burtenshaw (Gt Yarmouth) - indeed, some notoriety, and in the wrong place at the wrong time when Millwall lost their 59-game home unbeaten run against Plymouth; Maurice Fussey (Retford) - can't remember why, but this tall schoolmasterly figure was known for a certain eccentricity and in most matches he would oblige; Leo Callaghan (Merthyr Tydfil) an excellent ref, and finally Ron Challis (Tonbridge) - a fine ref we saw too seldom because of a potential bias on his part being from just down the road.
Crowds : regarding Millwall games, they were still something of a novelty and for years would be a big draw. The Valley had a vast capacity, and could easily accommodate however many of London's floating football population decided to turn up on the day. The Birmingham game was an evening kick-off, which would have reduced the number of away fans. The other higher attendances - Palace : local derby and a top-of-the-table clash, and the other games either holiday games and/or because we were doing well in the league, at times playing some very good football.
As always, wonderful that there is this chance for us to share some special memories.
Much later, in the early 90s I think, there was a general discontent among fans across the country that refs favoured defenders over attackers in the box and were unfairly parsimonious about awarding penalties. But the landscape shifted when a particular ref began giving pens for the slightest indiscretion - didn't we benefit from him in one game?; certainly he awarded four or five in a single match involving Palace. What was his name?
I think the way forward in narrowing our search for the opposition in the photo is to identify the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together. There can't have been many, because Hince made only 24 appearances in total. Any offers?
I think you're referring to the legendary Kelvin Moreton ....
I think that's correct .... the ref that kept on giving.
http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Aston_Villa/Aston_Villa-change-kits.html
I still think we should narrow it down by identifying the games in which Tees, Gregory, Campbell, Peacock and Hince played together; there weren't that many. Are the line-ups listed in Cameron's 'Home And Away With Charlton'?
Villa away kit all white with coloured trim
Derby would have black trim
Preston would probably have hooped socks
Blackpool would not have a stripe down their orange shorts
The home games that the famous five-Hince,Gregory,Tees,Treacy&Peacock played in as follows-
Hudds 17/2/68 -att 13500
Blackurn 1/3/68 att 11759
Bolton 6/4/68 att 10571
Rotherham 12/4/68 att 15082
Brist city 20/4/68 att 11756
Its now back to the drawing board.
Fossdeneboy - Many thanks for the article on Treacy and Tees: I'll read that tomorrow. Great work with your research - and a brilliant spot in noticing the stripe on the shorts; I had missed that.
So, those games you have listed are the only ones in which the Famous Five played together. In that case, the white dots on Campbell's and Gregory's left breasts are not badges but specks of dust on the photo, because you've established we didn't have badges in 1967-68. Are we agreed that we can rule out Huddersfield and Blackburn, because they wear blue shirts and would not have needed to change?
Rotherham's and Bristol City's shirt colours are red, so they would have worn their away strips. Have you checked these? EF has linked us to www.historicalkits.co.uk which apparently shows away kits, though I can't find the necessary link from the clubs' home pages; perhaps you'll be able to spot it.
Failing those four, that leaves us with Bolton. Their strip was white shirt, navy shorts, and white socks. Bearing in mind what I said earlier about non-orthochromatic film rendering blue lighter in tone than what we see in life, couldn't Bolton be the team? The only thing that bugs me about this - and please don't tear your hair out! - is that the Bolton game attracted an attendance of only 10,571, and the crowd in the photo implies rather more than that. What was Rotherham's away strip? They drew 15,082, which seems more like it.
Or are we missing something else entirely? Are you quite sure that's Paul Hince lurking behind Harry Gregory? If it's someone else, we've been barking up the wrong tree....
I'm going to sleep on this - if I can! - and will return tomorrow.
The other way to approach this problem is through the ref. GlassHalfFull reckons it's Osborne (Ipswich), and he seems to have a record of who reffed each game. Is this info in Cameron's book?
Home and Away does indeed show the referee, and for Rotherham it was .... Mr Osborne !!
BUT - the match was on Good Friday, which would normally mean an early kick-off. How does that fit with the direction of the shadows ?? Regrettably I no longer have my programmes - if any of you elder statesmen can dig out details of the match maybe that will take us a little closer.
I went to all three of the Easter 68 games - Fri Rotherham H, Sat Blackpool A, Tue evening Rotherham A - but for the life of me I cannot recall the Friday kick-off time. Sorry !!
The spectators in coats indicate chilly weather, which surely isn't unnatural at Easter. At first, the apparent large size of the crowd bothered me slightly, though we are looking obliquely across the south terrace and therefore can't see the gaps, and as GHF pointed out earlier, the east terrace would be much more densely packed if the attendance was, say, 25,000. The official gate for Rotherham was 15,082, to which we can add a good few thousand if the figures were fiddled - a very cynical suggestion of yours, Cardinal Sin, but perfectly justifiable!
Regarding the position of the sun, I've looked at a large-scale map to see that the ground is positioned on an axis running approximately south-south-west to north-north-east. The shadows - most sharply defined by the copper on the cinder path and by Ray Treacy - indicate that the sun was almost exactly due south. Let's assume we were kicking towards the south end as usual in the first half. Supposing a kick-off time of 3 p.m. and the photo was taken at, say, around 3.30, I would expect the sun to be farther to the west and the shadows to be falling away from our vantage point. But a kick-off of 11.15 and a photo at, say, 11.45 would produce shadows stretching towards our vantage point, as seen in the photo.
Kinsey, Campbell, Tees and Treacy scored in that 4-1 defeat of Rotherham on Good Friday, 12 April 1968. It's fascinating to wonder if we are actually looking at Matt Tees' goal. Has he headed it in directly from Peacock's corner? I assume the ball is just above the defender on the far post - though that could conceivably be a photographer's head, behind! Perhaps the ball hit the bar; or the keeper, falling backwards, parried it away. LincsAddick has a line of contact with Matt Tees - let's ask the man himself if he remembers!
A final attempt to nail this one securely - I have this morning posted a message on the Rotherham fans' forum, asking for confirmation. We await, expectantly....
Thanks, Fossdene, and for the earlier article about Treacy and Tees. My guess for the crowd would be 18-20000.
Regarding the time of year, from what can be seen of the trees they look pretty bare.
The back page of the Trust News I was given on Saturday shows the notorious Message To Our Supporters, and this gives a plan of the ground. It seems that the pitch is at an angle of about 45 degrees to the vertical. I know that there are some serious operators on here - if there is a mathematician amongst us, could he/she calculate what that signifies for the copper's shadow : could that be consistent with an early k-o in mid-April ? Sorry - this is getting to be a cross between Cold Case and CSI.
A moment must be taken to say that although his book is left with us as a marvellous work of reference, Colin Cameron would have been the ideal person to adjudicate. Much, much missed.
VF - surely the case has got to crack soon. Back in the summer, when I contacted Matt Tees' family about that thread started by the Scouse author, which ended up as a Tees tribute, someone replied on his behalf and I have just messaged him to request his kind assistance in drawing Matt's further attention to this current issue in case he can shed some light ....
One poster commented on the strict formation of the players, which struck us too. Another admitted he didn't know Rotherham's away strip specifically in 1968, but said traditionally they wore pale yellow shirts and pale blue shorts - which fits the black & white tones in the picture.
Charlton Athletic v Rotherham United, 12 April 1968. 4-1 (Kinsey, Campbell, Tees, Treacy). Attendance: 15,082. Referee: Private Godfrey.
Great stuff, gents - all our detailed detective work has been terrific fun. Now, where's the next picture we can get our teeth into?
Well played, all - that's a relief. And Mr Gliksten - 15082 ? You're having a laugh !!