There are more than 60 Supporters trusts in existence now. We are actually part of the dumb minority of fans who have not formed one. A club does not need to be in crisis for a Trust to make good sense. Personally I bitterly regret that we didnt set one up during the good times in the Prem. If you want to call your fellow Charlton fans "mad", when they are simply doing something more than moaning into their keyboards, then at least have the courtesy to read up about Trusts first.
As an outsider who has not really got involved in the discussion about are boardroom antics, reading some of the forum does give the impression that many on here are ready to string TJ up from the covered end as he is destroying are club, apparently.
Im not saying he is a great guy, i have never and most likely never will meet him but if those in the know really do know the ins and outs of the club right now, im sure others like me who are very much not in the know would love to here the details rather then comments like im worried or mixed messages as right now it comes across like public panic and hysteria.
If im wrong and there are details of why i should be more worried, then please say the guys in the know even if it has to be via a private message.
P.S. Not an attempt to insult any members on here just a genuine interest in more Facts then whispers.
This forum isn't starting up a supporters trust. It is being advertised on here and numerous other places.
'running screaming for the hills' - why is there always major exageration involved ?
Sorry Disco, not digging you out personally pal.
Just get a bit frustrated that I cannot for the life of me understand why a few people having a few concerns about how our club is being run and where it might be leading to, get subjected to either ridicule and abuse, when all they are really interested in is the well being of the club.
I think those who are concerned are worrying too much, if I am honest. We had a takeover Dec 2011 and major changes happend since then with new coaching/management staff, new players etc etc and I expect a change within the boardroom staff.
I am just feeling frustrated myself that there is no positivity at the moment. We just walked League One and we could have been in a much worse situation than we are in now. I know it's easier said than done, considering our 107 year history has not exactly been on a smooth ride but we need to think positive.
If all this turns out to be true then I will apologise to those who started the rumours but until the club comes and says there is a problem, I will continue to ignore any boardroom rumours.
There are a number of reasons identified by the trust group for its creation which will be published when we launch
I feel 2 of the main reasons are:
The lansdowne mews debacle which was allowed to develop under our noses while we were powerless to intervene,
and secondly the lack of any independent supporters representation with access to our Board. Both of which went under the previous ownership incidentally.
A third would be developments in the modern game, and indeed some might argue our club, which have meant owners are more likely to be speculative businessmen than wealthy fans. Cardiff, mkdons. This leaves fans wondering who is going to protect the long term future and history of clubs like ours.
Finally there are a lot of Trusts out there many of whom are very succesful and at the highest levels.
I am working on a piece on trusts which i hope to publish after or around castrust launch. Hope that helps
There are a number of reasons identified by the trust group for its creation which will be published when we launch....
Good luck with this Razil, can only really watch from afar but like Prague says the chance that there "might not be anything wrong" shouldn't be an impediment to developing some kind of organised position to further fans interests in the running of our club.
Personally, I support everyones right to be concerned but there are a few comments scattered in amongst some excellent additions to the debate that get the backs up of those who subscribe less to the view to be concerned. With me anyway. For example off top of my head;
'I don't know what it would take for people to realise that we're in trouble' 'Keep burying your head in the sand' 'I'm worried' 'Dumb clubs to not have a trust'
Everyone on here is concerned for the club. They wouldn't be on here if they weren't. What scale they're concerned to varies and that's fine. No need for the snipes and snidey comments from either side of the line.
Old Board are legends for what they did and we nearly went bust after poor team performances and poor team manager choices. New Board villains for (allegedly) nearly going bust with good team performances and a good choice of team manager. No one on here seems to know the new guys and so anyone who is prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt gets made to feel like they are less of a fan. I have no idea what is going on at Our club and like most people I never have. But I do know that only one side of the coin is allowed to be take seriously by some people on here.
Personally, I support everyones right to be concerned but there are a few comments scattered in amongst some excellent additions to the debate that get the backs up of those who subscribe less to the view to be concerned. With me anyway. For example off top of my head;
'I don't know what it would take for people to realise that we're in trouble' 'Keep burying your head in the sand' 'I'm worried' 'Dumb clubs to not have a trust'
Everyone on here is concerned for the club. They wouldn't be on here if they weren't. What scale they're concerned to varies and that's fine. No need for the snipes and snidey comments from either side of the line.
I'm of the same mindset as Disco here, however I see it as a natural progression to form and have a supporters trust. The motives behind setting this trust may not be ones that we all like but it's important, IMHO, that it will succeed IF it doesn't take a confrontational position up with the Board. I just hope that Razil and others do not go down this route otherwise the trust with ALL supporters could be broken/divided... Having said this I think it's an healthy move to have one set up working alongside the club
Old Board are legends for what they did and we nearly went bust after poor team performances and poor team manager choices. New Board villains for (allegedly) nearly going bust with good team performances and a good choice of team manager. No one on here seems to know the new guys and so anyone who is prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt gets made to feel like they are less of a fan. I have no idea what is going on at Our club and like most people I never have. But I do know that only one side of the coin is allowed to be take seriously by some people on here.
I agree, TJ and MS deserve our trust for what they've achieved so far, I do wonder if certain people on this board are missing the close contact they had with the old board, and hence are adopting an excessively negative attitude to the new owners...
The old board wasted a ton of money on dodgy managers and signings post Curbishley, which led to 2 relegations and near bankruptcy, and were (ultimately) responsible for the Lansdowne Mews fiasco, but I accept mistakes happen, and that these decisions were made for what they thought were the best interests of the club.
I'm of the same mindset as Disco here, however I see it as a natural progression to form and have a supporters trust. The motives behind setting this trust may not be ones that we all like but it's important, IMHO, that it will succeed IF it doesn't take a confrontational position up with the Board. I just hope that Razil and others do not go down this route otherwise the trust with ALL supporters could be broken/divided... Having said this I think it's an healthy move to have one set up working alongside the club
I am grateful that our club was snatched from the jaws of administration. I always was and I always will be. But I note that some posters are asking supporters to trust TJ and MS. For me, trust is a totally different concept to gratitude. I trusted PV and SK, yet they have voluntarily resigned and I simply want to know why. The remaining board have not earnt my trust yet as for me to trust someone, I have to understand their motives and intentions and it does help to actually know the identity/ies of the person/people that I am expected to trust. Was King Cash a backer or not? If he was, should I have respected him and would that respect have been justified? I'd always felt that RM et al were supporters of the club and this made me feel more comfortable. That comfort may be irrational as it was the mistakes of the old guard that led to our near demise, but even then, they were mistakes I could understand. I don't really understand what's going on at the moment and I feel very uneasy. If that is perceived as being unduly negative, then so be it.
Acting on rumours, hearsays and all that and taking that the board isn't interested in safeguarding the future of the club...
I think if you spent a little bit of time researching what Supporters Trusts actually do then I think you would answer your own questions. It's not about confrontation in the slightest. It's simple things that give a certain level of transparency and dialogue with the fans. Nothing that ought to cause the club any problems unless of course they are not prepared to interact with supporters in which case the first question would be why.
I am grateful that our club was snatched from the jaws of administration. I always was and I always will be. But I note that some posters are asking supporters to trust TJ and MS. For me, trust is a totally different concept to gratitude. I trusted PV and SK, yet they have voluntarily resigned and I simply want to know why. The remaining board have not earnt my trust yet as for me to trust someone, I have to understand their motives and intentions and it does help to actually know the identity/ies of the person/people that I am expected to trust. Was King Cash a backer or not? If he was, should I have respected him and would that respect have been justified? I'd always felt that RM et al were supporters of the club and this made me feel more comfortable. I don't really understand what's going on at the moment and I feel very uneasy. If that is perceived as being unduly negative, then so be it.
Personally, I support everyones right to be concerned but there are a few comments scattered in amongst some excellent additions to the debate that get the backs up of those who subscribe less to the view to be concerned. With me anyway. For example off top of my head;
'I don't know what it would take for people to realise that we're in trouble' 'Keep burying your head in the sand' 'I'm worried' 'Dumb clubs to not have a trust'
Everyone on here is concerned for the club. They wouldn't be on here if they weren't. What scale they're concerned to varies and that's fine. No need for the snipes and snidey comments from either side of the line.
Spoils a good site to the point that I only read or contribute ocassionaly these days.
I think that's an excellent post. For all of the mistakes which we know the old guard made (which we know with hindsight at least), you were always pretty convinced that their primary concern was the club. They weren't in it to make a fast buck, they were in it because they loved Charlton.
With the new guys, we simply don't know, my best guess is that it's one part ego and nine parts greed. That could be fine, there's nothing wrong with seeing an opportunity and trying to make some money from it, the concern is that at some point the course of action that best suits their interests could be very different to that which best suits the club - that wouldn't have happened under the old board as their motives were very different.
I'm not in a blind panic, you can't fault the progress we've made since they took over and I also think that a little knowledge (which is indisputably what we have accumulated on this subject for all the thousands of posts) is a dangerous thing. That said, it does leave me with a sense of unease that one day, the most profitable decision for the owners may well not be for the good of the club.
As such, whether there is trouble afoot, or everything is rosy, I think that the Supporters Trust (a body who we can rest assured has the club's wellbeing as its primary objective) is an excellent idea and I commend all those giving up time to be a part of it.
I am grateful that our club was snatched from the jaws of administration. I always was and I always will be. But I note that some posters are asking supporters to trust TJ and MS. For me, trust is a totally different concept to gratitude. I trusted PV and SK, yet they have voluntarily resigned and I simply want to know why. The remaining board have not earnt my trust yet as for me to trust someone, I have to understand their motives and intentions and it does help to actually know the identity/ies of the person/people that I am expected to trust. Was King Cash a backer or not? If he was, should I have respected him and would that respect have been justified? I'd always felt that RM et al were supporters of the club and this made me feel more comfortable. That comfort may be irrational as it was the mistakes of the old guard that led to our near demise, but even then, they were mistakes I could understand. I don't really understand what's going on at the moment and I feel very uneasy. If that is perceived as being unduly negative, then so be it.
Good points there, it's simply that some of us are just staggered that potshots are taken at the board for not investing in the club, disregarding the series of appointments and investment in our youth infrastructure which, to me, bides well for the future of the club seeing that the FA is changing the rules on the number of homegrown players in the squad... In 5-8 years we will enjoy the benefits of this foresight by the current board. For proof, just look at the lottery investment in our youth sports resulting in the bumper crop of Olympic Golds! Those guys have been brought in by Varney and bought into the club with support from Murray...
All the confidentiality and lack of communication is a norm amongst the boards in the commercial world out there, however I've yet to see a competent board deliberately running their investment into the ground... So let's give them the benefit of the doubt as the current going-ons may be necessary to move to the next level of efficiency and produce even greater effectiveness financially...
Recent spates signifies the normal processes of a new group coming together, We're in the adjourning phase...
I am grateful that our club was snatched from the jaws of administration. I always was and I always will be. But I note that some posters are asking supporters to trust TJ and MS. For me, trust is a totally different concept to gratitude. I trusted PV and SK, yet they have voluntarily resigned and I simply want to know why. The remaining board have not earnt my trust yet as for me to trust someone, I have to understand their motives and intentions and it does help to actually know the identity/ies of the person/people that I am expected to trust. Was King Cash a backer or not? If he was, should I have respected him and would that respect have been justified? I'd always felt that RM et al were supporters of the club and this made me feel more comfortable. That comfort may be irrational as it was the mistakes of the old guard that led to our near demise, but even then, they were mistakes I could understand. I don't really understand what's going on at the moment and I feel very uneasy. If that is perceived as being unduly negative, then so be it.
No plan matters if we bet the store and run out of money, look at Portsmouth. We don't know if we have shedloads, or we haven't got a pot. Then again we haven't sold anybody so far, and we have a smattering of players in. To what extent those players are ballast, and to what extent they will make a difference time will tell.
I don't want to be considered a panic merchant or an ostricht. I don't want to take any 'side' in the debate. What I want to put over is this: It only seems on this site that we are in trouble. The 'Daily Malicious Fascist Bastard' or any other Grub Street comic or any media organisation has mentioned anything about Charlton being in financial difficulties and I think someone would have. Someone would have sold their story wouldn't they? Anyway, thanks for listening!
You cannot trust someone when you do not even know who they are.
Additionally, when they are not being truthful & appear to be deliberately misleading the fans, then that makes it even harder to trust said unknowns.
I give you, "Steve Kavanagh has resigned from the board but will continue as Chief Executive", when some of us knew he was already on "gardening leave".
If I wanted some work done on my house & a "bloke down the pub" said I know someone who can sort that for you, but I'm not telling you who he is, I certainly wouldn't be handing over the cash.
If others trust unknown people then good luck to them.
I'm not against TJ or MS, but you have to earn respect & trust.
Would all the supporters be so "trusting" if we'd ended up 8th last season ?
Ditto, if we are bottom after 10 games ?
According to MS they haven't spent much money. The squad was built on the Jenkinson cash. Personally, I don't believe that, but that's what they said.
This thread was winding me up but then I thought about it and in reality it is a mirror of life. Some are glass is half full - optimists - who themselves would say they were taking a realistic view of events. Some are glass is half empty - pessimists - who would say they were taking a realistic view of events. In the end the events are the events and its each individuals approach to coping with them unfolding that in reality divides us because all of us want the club to flourish.
There may well be financial issues at the club which are amplified by those who have got wind of them due to which ever camp - full or empty that they happen to be in.
Let me give an example. If your job was under threat due to worries about the financial health of the club, you may have a much more glass is half empty view of what you believe is going on. On the other hand if you or somebody you trust had personal knowledge of the key individuals and had worked closely with them enough to trust them, you might take a more benign view.
This is what I am getting from the noises off which seem to be split between a generally more positive spin or a more worrying spin.
For those of us not in the know, I think the only way to be is true to your own position but respectful of others who take a different view.
The only thing that is certain is that what unfolds will be what unfolds. We on the outside will then endlessly speculate about what went on inside the club, fuelled by the same mix of those who are more in the know than us.
In the meantime I support wholeheartedly the move to form a Supporters Trust. As major stakeholders in the club, we the supporters need to have a focus for ensuring that the board of the club is held to account for their actions. A Supporters Trust can be that focus. It also acts as a custodian of the Club so that if things go tits up, like at Portsmouth for example, the Trust can keep the flame of the club burning even when the structure of the club implodes. I am benignly indifferent to what the Board think on this issue - they have their reasons why they have invested in a football club. some for footballing reasons, some for hope of financial return, some for a mix of both. Having a committed and focus fan base can be massively positive (as it was during the return to the Valley).
I don't think a Trust would be representing the fans interests if it didn't try at the outset to form a collaborative cooperative approach with the club.
I agree wholeheartedly with Razil with regard to a collaborative approach to the club at the start. After all we assume that the Board are not in it for it to fail. Therefore we and they on the face of it want the same thing.
On the other hand their view of success may not be the success that we seek. Suppose success in their terms was keeping the club going at the Valley until, MK Dons like, the club is moved lock, stock and barrel, to Ebsfleet or elsewhere? That may be seen by the board as the financial return on their investment but not one that the vast majority of supporters would accept. So I see the Trust as one who seeks to work with the club to act as a conduit with the Fans, support the Board in it's stewardship of the club and hopefully be able to contribute to the clubs success both on and off the field. I also see it as a critical friend to the board, ensuring the board always has a fans perspective when it makes its stewardship decisions. Finally I see it as the ultimate protector of the soul of the club through its fans.
Comments
Im not saying he is a great guy, i have never and most likely never will meet him but if those in the know really do know the ins and outs of the club right now, im sure others like me who are very much not in the know would love to here the details rather then comments like im worried or mixed messages as right now it comes across like public panic and hysteria.
If im wrong and there are details of why i should be more worried, then please say the guys in the know even if it has to be via a private message.
P.S. Not an attempt to insult any members on here just a genuine interest in more Facts then whispers.
I am just feeling frustrated myself that there is no positivity at the moment. We just walked League One and we could have been in a much worse situation than we are in now. I know it's easier said than done, considering our 107 year history has not exactly been on a smooth ride but we need to think positive.
If all this turns out to be true then I will apologise to those who started the rumours but until the club comes and says there is a problem, I will continue to ignore any boardroom rumours.
I feel 2 of the main reasons are:
The lansdowne mews debacle which was allowed to develop under our noses while we were powerless to intervene,
and secondly the lack of any independent supporters representation with access to our Board. Both of which went under the previous ownership incidentally.
A third would be developments in the modern game, and indeed some might argue our club, which have meant owners are more likely to be speculative businessmen than wealthy fans. Cardiff, mkdons. This leaves fans wondering who is going to protect the long term future and history of clubs like ours.
Finally there are a lot of Trusts out there many of whom are very succesful and at the highest levels.
I am working on a piece on trusts which i hope to publish after or around castrust launch.
Hope that helps
Personally, I support everyones right to be concerned but there are a few comments scattered in amongst some excellent additions to the debate that get the backs up of those who subscribe less to the view to be concerned. With me anyway. For example off top of my head;
'I don't know what it would take for people to realise that we're in trouble'
'Keep burying your head in the sand'
'I'm worried'
'Dumb clubs to not have a trust'
Everyone on here is concerned for the club. They wouldn't be on here if they weren't. What scale they're concerned to varies and that's fine. No need for the snipes and snidey comments from either side of the line.
The old board wasted a ton of money on dodgy managers and signings post Curbishley, which led to 2 relegations and near bankruptcy, and were (ultimately) responsible for the Lansdowne Mews fiasco, but I accept mistakes happen, and that these decisions were made for what they thought were the best interests of the club.
The new board deserve the same understanding.
Why don't you get involved?
I think that's an excellent post. For all of the mistakes which we know the old guard made (which we know with hindsight at least), you were always pretty convinced that their primary concern was the club. They weren't in it to make a fast buck, they were in it because they loved Charlton.
With the new guys, we simply don't know, my best guess is that it's one part ego and nine parts greed. That could be fine, there's nothing wrong with seeing an opportunity and trying to make some money from it, the concern is that at some point the course of action that best suits their interests could be very different to that which best suits the club - that wouldn't have happened under the old board as their motives were very different.
I'm not in a blind panic, you can't fault the progress we've made since they took over and I also think that a little knowledge (which is indisputably what we have accumulated on this subject for all the thousands of posts) is a dangerous thing. That said, it does leave me with a sense of unease that one day, the most profitable decision for the owners may well not be for the good of the club.
As such, whether there is trouble afoot, or everything is rosy, I think that the Supporters Trust (a body who we can rest assured has the club's wellbeing as its primary objective) is an excellent idea and I commend all those giving up time to be a part of it.
All the confidentiality and lack of communication is a norm amongst the boards in the commercial world out there, however I've yet to see a competent board deliberately running their investment into the ground... So let's give them the benefit of the doubt as the current going-ons may be necessary to move to the next level of efficiency and produce even greater effectiveness financially...
Recent spates signifies the normal processes of a new group coming together, We're in the adjourning phase...
Additionally, when they are not being truthful & appear to be deliberately misleading the fans, then that makes it even harder to trust said unknowns.
I give you, "Steve Kavanagh has resigned from the board but will continue as Chief Executive", when some of us knew he was already on "gardening leave".
If I wanted some work done on my house & a "bloke down the pub" said I know someone who can sort that for you, but I'm not telling you who he is, I certainly wouldn't be handing over the cash.
If others trust unknown people then good luck to them.
I'm not against TJ or MS, but you have to earn respect & trust.
Would all the supporters be so "trusting" if we'd ended up 8th last season ?
Ditto, if we are bottom after 10 games ?
According to MS they haven't spent much money. The squad was built on the Jenkinson cash. Personally, I don't believe that, but that's what they said.
There may well be financial issues at the club which are amplified by those who have got wind of them due to which ever camp - full or empty that they happen to be in.
Let me give an example. If your job was under threat due to worries about the financial health of the club, you may have a much more glass is half empty view of what you believe is going on. On the other hand if you or somebody you trust had personal knowledge of the key individuals and had worked closely with them enough to trust them, you might take a more benign view.
This is what I am getting from the noises off which seem to be split between a generally more positive spin or a more worrying spin.
For those of us not in the know, I think the only way to be is true to your own position but respectful of others who take a different view.
The only thing that is certain is that what unfolds will be what unfolds. We on the outside will then endlessly speculate about what went on inside the club, fuelled by the same mix of those who are more in the know than us.
In the meantime I support wholeheartedly the move to form a Supporters Trust. As major stakeholders in the club, we the supporters need to have a focus for ensuring that the board of the club is held to account for their actions. A Supporters Trust can be that focus. It also acts as a custodian of the Club so that if things go tits up, like at Portsmouth for example, the Trust can keep the flame of the club burning even when the structure of the club implodes. I am benignly indifferent to what the Board think on this issue - they have their reasons why they have invested in a football club. some for footballing reasons, some for hope of financial return, some for a mix of both. Having a committed and focus fan base can be massively positive (as it was during the return to the Valley).
For that reason I look on a Supporters' Trust rather like I do my car insurance.
Something that is important to have but hopefully won't need to be used!
On the other hand their view of success may not be the success that we seek. Suppose success in their terms was keeping the club going at the Valley until, MK Dons like, the club is moved lock, stock and barrel, to Ebsfleet or elsewhere? That may be seen by the board as the financial return on their investment but not one that the vast majority of supporters would accept. So I see the Trust as one who seeks to work with the club to act as a conduit with the Fans, support the Board in it's stewardship of the club and hopefully be able to contribute to the clubs success both on and off the field. I also see it as a critical friend to the board, ensuring the board always has a fans perspective when it makes its stewardship decisions. Finally I see it as the ultimate protector of the soul of the club through its fans.