I think the point that the people who can't seem to let go of the blaming fans issue is that if you had that number of nuns in the crowd you'd get the same result. The crowd becomes a single entity and it was the Police's job to manage it. A problem was that the ground was not only not conducive to filtering outside, but also that the police made no attempt to do so. The had done this for previous games so why not this? The ground did not allow people to enter at a reasonable rate so a backlog built up outside - the were precedents which highlighted this problem that were ignored. Had the barriers that enclosed the central ailes been in place for a game between different clubs in 1981 been present (they weren't then) people would have undoubtably lost their lives.
The people at the back of the crush were trying to get into the terrace to watch the game just before and during kick off- they would have had no insight as to the collective force that would be concentrated on those at the front. They were not a bunch of ticketless drunkards pushing forward trying to kill their fellow fans. I think this will be my last post on this topic- those ignorant enough not to understand what the report has clearly and thoroughly explained either haven't read it or are too thick to understand it.
You call other people thick, yet you use an analogy comparing football fans and nuns, then blaming the Police for failing to control the crowd. Glad its your last post on the topic.
It is a shame that some can't get over there prejudice of other football fans or just Liverpool fans, when the facts are there to read with minimal effort.
Surely the point is that there were no signs directing fans away from the tunnel towards the side pens when there should have been some. That's where either the police or Sheffield Wednesday bear a lot of responsibility for the disaster.
Who appointed the Hillsborough Independent Panel? It consisted of the Bishop of Liverpool Rev Jones, Katy Jones who worked with Jimmy McGovern on his various Liverpool based docu dramas, Professor Phil Scratton from Liverpool, Peter Sissons from Liverpool, Raju Bhutt a lawyer who specialises in Police neglect of duty and four other individuals. When the panel was set up Rev Jones stated "Our overwhelming duty is to the families". Is that panel really independent?
Independent of the police yes.
The competence, or otherwise, of the police was a major issue here so a meaningful investigation surely had to be seen to be independent of the police (as exemplified by the individuals you name) as well as actually be independent.
The crux for me arising from these latest revelations is the realisation that the police tampered with and falsified evidence as well as denigrating the dead with false accusations and statements in attempt to justify what at best was sheer incompetence at worst downright negligence by both themselves and the NHS by virtue of the (lack of) timely response.
Having read the report, I agree Len, that the subsequent behaviour of the Police in changing statements etc, was appalling and should be dealt with in one way or another. I find it difficult to accept that no blame whatsoever is placed with the fans who caused the crush resulting in the accidental tragic deaths. That exit was opened, probably in good faith by Police, to prevent people being crushed outside the ground. When it was opened there was a sudden rush to get into the ground and many went to the already over crowded middle pens. Why, if the pens were totally full, did fans push their way into them. Surely we all have a duty of care to ourselves and others and you cannot fit 4,000 fans into a pen that holds only 2,000 - the clue being that it's full and there is no room. I see that Michael Mansfield is now on the scene - nowhere to be seen at the start of the campaign when families had to fundraise and beg for basic legal advice from local lawyers. The whole thing has been a nightmare from start to now and will continue.
You can't possibly have read the whole report to take that view. I have read a significant amount of it. Please explain to me how individuals could possibly know that :
a) there were 2,000 already in two terrace pens accessed by a concealed entrance tunnel? b) there were another 1,999 of their fellow fans making for the same tunnel entrance? c) with only minutes to go to kick off, they did anything other than what you or I would have done, namely make for the nearest entrance? d) there were other sections not full when the signage for these other areas has been shown to be inadequate?
I'll give you some facts:
1. an almost catastrophic crush took place in 1981 due to similar circumstances. The ground was dropped from the FA list as a result. 2. It was re-instated to the FA list in yet there were further crushes in 1987 and 1988, but little notice was taken of them by the Police or the Club. 3. In 1981 and 1988, the Police shut the gates to the tunnel when they believed the area was becoming over crowded - they failed to do this in 1989 4. In 1981 and 1987, the Police delayed the start of the games by 15 minutes to help manage the crowd.
This argument about fans rushing in and causing the fatalities has been completely demolished by this Independent Panel report.
It is crystal clear that the cause was
1. Inadequate design/volume of turnstiles which could not cope with the numbers on the day 2. Inadequate filtering by the Police prior to fans getting into the turnstile area 3. Poor/lack of crowd control by the Police 4. Lack of Police on the ground at the crucial time 5. Poor communication between police officers on the ground and the command 6. A very inexperienced Commander 7. No lessons learned from previous year problems 8. A massive over capacity in the central two pens which was set at 2,800 but later in 1989 was reduced to 1,500 9. A ground that was engineered in such a way as to make it impossible to restrict the numbers of fans that made it into the two central pens. It relied upon the judgement of the Police in closing the central tunnel doors. They failed to do this especially after a decision was made to open an exit gate to ease a crush outside the ground.
None of these things had anything to do with fans who turned up to watch a game of football.
I find it very odd that people reel out the 'ticketless 'drunk' fans' argument like that actually explains anything. The minimum requirement of the police and the facilities should be that they’re sufficiently adequate to deal with some people turning up without tickets (whether inebriated or not) without 96 people dying. That they were able to pass this off as a reasonable excuse for a tragedy for so many years is astounding.
I very much doubt that the Liverpool fans acted like angels on the day, that's kind of besides the point though, whether they had tickets or not and even if they'd had a few beers beforehand, even if there were some troublemakers amongst them, no-one here should have died, let alone 96 people.
That the police were inept and grossly negligent is almost forgivable from an individual standpoint (though not when considering the police as an establishment), we all make mistakes and in such a position of responsibility, unfortunately these have the potential to be tragic.
The nature and scale of the cover-up is absolutely not forgivable. It’s shocking and disgusting.
I never once claimed that "drunken ticketless fans" were "to blame for everything" but it would be nice if they could admit to just some of the blame.
You really must read the report, or at least the summary. The Independent Panel make it clear, indeed it was clear in the Taylor report, that there was no evidence on drunken fans and no substantial numbers of fans without tickets. This was the lie, put about by South Yorkshire Police to shift the blame away from them and onto the fans, picked up by a local press agency, given credence by a local Tory MP with an anti-football axe to grind and amplified in a shameful and grotesque way by MacKenzie in the Sun. Mud sticks sadly and many, including some politicians like the current Mayor of London, believed the lies.
Those lies have been exposed by this panel. They are completely discredited.
Here's how I see this. I remember this awful day very clearly even as young as I was at the time. My missus' dad is Sheffield born and bred and saw the events around the ground and city first hand with his own eyes.
The police lost control and panicked, then lied. Lots and lots this is unforgivable and the loss of life is horrendous. In case any perspective is needed if 30 service personnel were killed in the same day, anyway I digress.
People never came back from going to a game of football, this should never happen.
There were thousands more people there trying to get in than should have been, but this has been taken as a given as they have always done this and it has not been seen as the real problem. Take any thought of drunkenness away for a moment.
So why in the name of all that is holy, do Liverpool fans still do this and have done this since? Istanbul and Athens to think of two from the top of my head that are recent and high profile. In the time of hillsborough going around the general area of the game, watching it on the box in a pub having a few jars was not an option Like it is today and has been for at least the last fifteen years.
Why are they not amongst themselves stopping this and why have they not since hillsborough?? They have done it since, this is what I find sticks in the craw so much
Yes, the police fucked up on a monumental, unprecedented scale and their actions since were abhorrent, but don't put all the blame in one place.
Another analogy, if I load a minibus up at three am to take people home that are desperate to get home, that is built to hold ten people with twenty and it crashes and people die, who's fault is that? Mine for letting those people in there? Theirs for getting in there? Or the polices for not stopping me before something bad happens?
I'd say all three.
The police were to blame, but the fans, as unpopular as this will make me, were not blameless I'm afraid. And I'm not talking about all of them, if 20% more people had turned up than there was tickets for this could have been managed or at least lessened. But it was a lot more than that.
I've read the report today, and I don't think it was news to me all of it. I've never been stupid enough to believe everything I read in the paper and was positive the police and the government were covering things up, what difference this makes I do not know.
Here's how I see this. I remember this awful day very clearly even as young as I was at the time. My missus' dad is Sheffield born and bred and saw the events around the ground and city first hand with his own eyes.
The police lost control and panicked, then lied. Lots and lots this is unforgivable and the loss of life is horrendous. In case any perspective is needed if 30 service personnel were killed in the same day, anyway I digress.
People never came back from going to a game of football, this should never happen.
There were thousands more people there trying to get in than should have been, but this has been taken as a given as they have always done this and it has not been seen as the real problem. Take any thought of drunkenness away for a moment.
So why in the name of all that is holy, do Liverpool fans still do this and have done this since? Istanbul and Athens to think of two from the top of my head that are recent and high profile. In the time of hillsborough going around the general area of the game, watching it on the box in a pub having a few jars was not an option Like it is today and has been for at least the last fifteen years.
Why are they not amongst themselves stopping this and why have they not since hillsborough?? They have done it since, this is what I find sticks in the craw so much
Yes, the police fucked up on a monumental, unprecedented scale and their actions since were abhorrent, but don't put all the blame in one place.
Another analogy, if I load a minibus up at three am to take people home that are desperate to get home, that is built to hold ten people with twenty and it crashes and people die, who's fault is that? Mine for letting those people in there? Theirs for getting in there? Or the polices for not stopping me before something bad happens?
I'd say all three.
The police were to blame, but the fans, as unpopular as this will make me, were not blameless I'm afraid. And I'm not talking about all of them, if 20% more people had turned up than there was tickets for this could have been managed or at least lessened. But it was a lot more than that.
I've read the report today, and I don't think it was news to me all of it. I've never been stupid enough to believe everything I read in the paper and was positive the police and the government were covering things up, what difference this makes I do not know.
Carter, I respect your view. I accept that there have been occasions where Liverpool fans, indeed all fans of all clubs on occasion turn up without tickets hoping to get in.
One of my best mates was a West Ham fan. He and a number of his mates got into 1975 FA Cup final without a ticket.
The Independent Panel though is pretty clear that there was no evidence significant numbers of fans there without tickets. I believe them. The stuff about that was part of the lie that the Police used to shift blame. Just because people have a history of doing something, it doesn't follow that they are guilty by dint of having previous. Evidence not past guilt or opinion is what determines each circumstance.
Sadly the area of the ground, access to it and the control of that access was the problem here. The Police could have closed the tunnel to the two central pens if the area was becoming over crowded. They did this on previous occasions.They failed to do it. The opening of the exit gate with 10 minutes to go, and the failure to stop more fans entering the tunnel was the critical issue here.
The Independent Panel has said that the fans were not to blame in any way. The Government accepts this, the Police accept this, even Kelvin MacKenzie accepts it. So why still question it?
If we still keep harping on about the fans, we will lose the real big picture here, namely the systematic and despicable cover up which has been properly exposed in this report and the need for the perpetrators to be brought to book.
My dad for a few years was a part-time Brighton fan (it was an excuse for him to get out of the house & down the pub more than anything I think in hindsight) but nonetheless he took me (13) & my little brother (9) to Highbury for the FA Cup semi-final between Brighton & Sheffield Wednesday in 1983. The only FA Cup Semi Final I've been too & probably ever will go to
Behind the goal it was absolute chaos, we were packed in like sardines & there was absolutely no organization - just a continuos, ever growing stream of people coming in through the small number of entrance points right upto & after kick off, polite/gentle Brighton fans not drunken Scousers. We ended up separated, crushed - terrifying experience especially for my dad. We managed to fight our way out of the worst of the crush & I don't recall seeing much of the game as we sought refuge in a part of the terrace that had a restricted view & wasn't so crushed.
He was so angry he wrote a letter to the FA saying that it was incredible that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to the point where people were getting hurt & why was it allowed to get to that stage.
Of course the letter back was a generic "thank you for your comments etc" & we never heard anything more of it.....I wish I'd kept it.
Looking back at videos of that game its incredible the amount of people packed onto the terrace. 56000 there that day - ironically the penultimate semi final at Highbury because Arsenal refused to install perimeter fencing.....
It was obviously a different era - crowd control in those days was all about containment, get them into the ground & keep them from trouble outside.
a) there were 2,000 already in two terrace pens accessed by a concealed entrance tunnel? b) there were another 1,999 of their fellow fans making for the same tunnel entrance? -------------------
The Independent Panel though is pretty clear that there was no evidence significant numbers of fans there without tickets. I believe them. ------------------
Another analogy, if I load a minibus up at three am to take people home that are desperate to get home, that is built to hold ten people with twenty and it crashes and people die, who's fault is that? Mine for letting those people in there? Theirs for getting in there? Or the polices for not stopping me before something bad happens?
I'd say all three.
The police were to blame, but the fans, as unpopular as this will make me, were not blameless I'm afraid. And I'm not talking about all of them, if 20% more people had turned up than there was tickets for this could have been managed or at least lessened. But it was a lot more than that.
I've read the report today, and I don't think it was news to me all of it. I've never been stupid enough to believe everything I read in the paper and was positive the police and the government were covering things up, what difference this makes I do not know.
Here's an analogy for you, there were ticketless fans in their the previous year but no deaths?
Sorry guys but it's a fact that the fans weren't to blame. Lord Taylor in his report referred to them as a factor but not a significant one.
How many ticketless were there the year before? May well have just been a lot less. Knowing a lot of Liverpool fans as I do it's quite possible a few went without tickets the year before and told their pals how easy it was to bunk in so loads more came in 89.
To just totally dismiss the role of the fans in this is short sighted at best
I worked the turnstiles at Charlton (Selhurst) and Millwall 86 to 89 - plenty of scum bags trying to intimidate a young lad into a free ticket and quite a few offering a few quid to jump the turnstiles.
Liverpool away at Millwall midweek in that period was the worst I came across. At least twice as many Liverpool in the end that actually paid.
Cheeky fun loving Scousers !
I just checked out the date of the Millwall Liverpool game I refer to above - 11th April 1989.
a) there were 2,000 already in two terrace pens accessed by a concealed entrance tunnel? b) there were another 1,999 of their fellow fans making for the same tunnel entrance? -------------------
The Independent Panel though is pretty clear that there was no evidence significant numbers of fans there without tickets. I believe them. ------------------
How does that add up then?
I was using the figures that PaulCAFC used to make a point against him. He said
".....Why, if the pens were totally full, did fans push their way into them. Surely we all have a duty of care to ourselves and others and you cannot fit 4,000 fans into a pen that holds only 2,000 ....."
He was talking about individuals having a duty of care. My points were that individually when they chose to enter the tunnel they could not have known.
a) that the area already contained 2,000 fans (despite it being concealed) b) that each person would have been aware that another 1,999 like minded fans (1,999 plus them = 2,000) were going to swell an area fit for 2,000, thus making 4,000
They were his figures. What the report says is this:
"1.82 The tunnel was directly opposite Gate C and the sign above read: STANDING. The gates at the head of the tunnel were fastened back against the wall. Oblivious to the layout of the terrace, and unable to view the terrace from the tunnel entrance, more than 2,000 fans descended into the already packed central pens."
it also says this
"24. On opening Gate C there was no instruction given to the SYP officers inside the stadium to manage the flow and direction of the incoming crowd.
25. From the documents provided to the Panel it is clear that the crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles outside the stadium was not caused by fans arriving ‘late’ for the kick-off. The turnstiles were inadequate to process the crowd safely, and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up of people outside the ground."
The truth is that the two central pens had a capacity set at 2,200. The capacity of that whole terrace was significantly greater than that. The central pens were only accessed by the tunnel. There was no stewarding or policing at the tunnel to ensure that fans with tickets would be re-directed away from the tunnel to the side pens. So when the fateful decision to open the exit gate was made, those fans who were being crushed outside the the ground, made for the tunnel entrance which was ahead of them without having any awareness that the central pens were already packed. How can the individual fans be held, as PaulCAFC suggests, to be in breach of a duty of care? The Report is clear, the fans were blameless.
I don't dispute that the police and SWFC must take most of the blame for what happened that day and the fact they tried to cover it up is absolutely disgusting and people should do time for what they have done.
However I don't understand how the fans can take NO blame whatsoever, if there had been zero fans present without tickets then it's quite possible the whole day would have unfolded differently, so surely the fans (those without tickets) must accept at least a small portion of the blame.
Dismissing the report is more than short sighted. The report looked comprehensively at the role of the fans.
Do you believe everything you read without ever questioning it?
I thought the fans were to blame at first especially as they had the same end as last year so should've known about the pen structures. I then looked in to it and found out I was wrong.
The mind boggles on this thread. If the fans were to blame it would've come out, how are people are able to grasp this?! Every question has been answered yet they keep getting asked again and again? I guess some people can't handle the truth. Even the police have accepted it wasn't the fans fault!
The Obill *lied and fed the lie to the media that the fans were pissed and broke turn styles down. *They change (forged) 100--160 statements. * Top OBill and their Union instructed this conspiracy to be undertaken. * Thatcher was informed in writing with the comments" statements changed a depressingly faimilure tale"
The last staement says a huge amount about the "best police force in the World".
Some football fans have been jailed for conspiracy with 2-4 years in jail and we have spent MILLIONS investigating phone taping--- GET REAL go after the organisers of this conspiracy.
If there was only 1 ticketless fan, then that person must take some (however small) part of the blame, I don't understand how this is deniable, it's common sense.
This does not take away from the fact the the syp/swfc take the majority of the blame, it does not mean that those fans with tickets for the game where ticketless.
If there was only 1 ticketless fan, then that person must take some (however small) part of the blame, I don't understand how this is deniable, it's common sense.
This does not take away from the fact the the syp/swfc take the majority of the blame, it does not mean that those fans with tickets for the game where ticketless.
Stu that really is nonsense. 1 ticketless fan would not cause 96 deaths.
I went to Lords without a ticket last month, but 96 people didn't die.
Did I say one fan would cause all the deaths? No, I said they would be partly responsible, as that would be less space left available for people who did have tickets. Of course there was bigger issues that day that caused much larger problems.
Nobody knows how many ticketless fans where present that day, you already know this, however from looking at the numbers posted above it's pretty obvious there was ticketless fans. I'm not saying these people are the main culprits, just that they must have been partly responsible, as had they not been in the ground there would have been more space for those with tickets. Less people = less of a crush.
Paulcafc - have you ever been to a live music show before (commonly called a 'gig')? Regularly at popular shows I've experienced crushing as people at the back try to push their way to the front.
This is totally normal crowd behaviour.
Dangerously overestimating a venue's capacity, designing it in such a way that crowds can't easily disperse, opening the doors to the venue so that thousands of people who have turned up to buy touted tickets or try and bunk in can pile in en masse, not allowing adequate numbers of emergency services access to injured people, then lying about every one of these events and laying the blame squarely at the feet of the people at the back of the crowd unknowingly causing the deaths of 96 people is not.
Comments
a) there were 2,000 already in two terrace pens accessed by a concealed entrance tunnel?
b) there were another 1,999 of their fellow fans making for the same tunnel entrance?
c) with only minutes to go to kick off, they did anything other than what you or I would have done, namely make for the nearest entrance?
d) there were other sections not full when the signage for these other areas has been shown to be inadequate?
I'll give you some facts:
1. an almost catastrophic crush took place in 1981 due to similar circumstances. The ground was dropped from the FA list as a result.
2. It was re-instated to the FA list in yet there were further crushes in 1987 and 1988, but little notice was taken of them by the Police or the Club.
3. In 1981 and 1988, the Police shut the gates to the tunnel when they believed the area was becoming over crowded - they failed to do this in 1989
4. In 1981 and 1987, the Police delayed the start of the games by 15 minutes to help manage the crowd.
This argument about fans rushing in and causing the fatalities has been completely demolished by this Independent Panel report.
It is crystal clear that the cause was
1. Inadequate design/volume of turnstiles which could not cope with the numbers on the day
2. Inadequate filtering by the Police prior to fans getting into the turnstile area
3. Poor/lack of crowd control by the Police
4. Lack of Police on the ground at the crucial time
5. Poor communication between police officers on the ground and the command
6. A very inexperienced Commander
7. No lessons learned from previous year problems
8. A massive over capacity in the central two pens which was set at 2,800 but later in 1989 was reduced to 1,500
9. A ground that was engineered in such a way as to make it impossible to restrict the numbers of fans that made it into the two central pens. It relied upon the judgement of the Police in closing the central tunnel doors. They failed to do this especially after a decision was made to open an exit gate to ease a crush outside the ground.
None of these things had anything to do with fans who turned up to watch a game of football.
Those lies have been exposed by this panel. They are completely discredited.
The police lost control and panicked, then lied. Lots and lots this is unforgivable and the loss of life is horrendous. In case any perspective is needed if 30 service personnel were killed in the same day, anyway I digress.
People never came back from going to a game of football, this should never happen.
There were thousands more people there trying to get in than should have been, but this has been taken as a given as they have always done this and it has not been seen as the real problem. Take any thought of drunkenness away for a moment.
So why in the name of all that is holy, do Liverpool fans still do this and have done this since? Istanbul and Athens to think of two from the top of my head that are recent and high profile. In the time of hillsborough going around the general area of the game, watching it on the box in a pub having a few jars was not an option Like it is today and has been for at least the last fifteen years.
Why are they not amongst themselves stopping this and why have they not since hillsborough?? They have done it since, this is what I find sticks in the craw so much
Yes, the police fucked up on a monumental, unprecedented scale and their actions since were abhorrent, but don't put all the blame in one place.
Another analogy, if I load a minibus up at three am to take people home that are desperate to get home, that is built to hold ten people with twenty and it crashes and people die, who's fault is that? Mine for letting those people in there? Theirs for getting in there? Or the polices for not stopping me before something bad happens?
I'd say all three.
The police were to blame, but the fans, as unpopular as this will make me, were not blameless I'm afraid. And I'm not talking about all of them, if 20% more people had turned up than there was tickets for this could have been managed or at least lessened. But it was a lot more than that.
I've read the report today, and I don't think it was news to me all of it. I've never been stupid enough to believe everything I read in the paper and was positive the police and the government were covering things up, what difference this makes I do not know.
One of my best mates was a West Ham fan. He and a number of his mates got into 1975 FA Cup final without a ticket.
The Independent Panel though is pretty clear that there was no evidence significant numbers of fans there without tickets. I believe them. The stuff about that was part of the lie that the Police used to shift blame. Just because people have a history of doing something, it doesn't follow that they are guilty by dint of having previous. Evidence not past guilt or opinion is what determines each circumstance.
Sadly the area of the ground, access to it and the control of that access was the problem here. The Police could have closed the tunnel to the two central pens if the area was becoming over crowded. They did this on previous occasions.They failed to do it. The opening of the exit gate with 10 minutes to go, and the failure to stop more fans entering the tunnel was the critical issue here.
The Independent Panel has said that the fans were not to blame in any way. The Government accepts this, the Police accept this, even Kelvin MacKenzie accepts it. So why still question it?
If we still keep harping on about the fans, we will lose the real big picture here, namely the systematic and despicable cover up which has been properly exposed in this report and the need for the perpetrators to be brought to book.
Behind the goal it was absolute chaos, we were packed in like sardines & there was absolutely no organization - just a continuos, ever growing stream of people coming in through the small number of entrance points right upto & after kick off, polite/gentle Brighton fans not drunken Scousers. We ended up separated, crushed - terrifying experience especially for my dad. We managed to fight our way out of the worst of the crush & I don't recall seeing much of the game as we sought refuge in a part of the terrace that had a restricted view & wasn't so crushed.
He was so angry he wrote a letter to the FA saying that it was incredible that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to the point where people were getting hurt & why was it allowed to get to that stage.
Of course the letter back was a generic "thank you for your comments etc" & we never heard anything more of it.....I wish I'd kept it.
Looking back at videos of that game its incredible the amount of people packed onto the terrace. 56000 there that day - ironically the penultimate semi final at Highbury because Arsenal refused to install perimeter fencing.....
It was obviously a different era - crowd control in those days was all about containment, get them into the ground & keep them from trouble outside.
a) there were 2,000 already in two terrace pens accessed by a concealed entrance tunnel?
b) there were another 1,999 of their fellow fans making for the same tunnel entrance?
-------------------
The Independent Panel though is pretty clear that there was no evidence significant numbers of fans there without tickets. I believe them.
------------------
How does that add up then?
Sorry guys but it's a fact that the fans weren't to blame. Lord Taylor in his
report referred to them as a factor but not a significant one.
To just totally dismiss the role of the fans in this is short sighted at best
".....Why, if the pens were totally full, did fans push their way into them. Surely we all have a duty of care to ourselves and others and you cannot fit 4,000 fans into a pen that holds only 2,000 ....."
He was talking about individuals having a duty of care. My points were that individually when they chose to enter the tunnel they could not have known.
a) that the area already contained 2,000 fans (despite it being concealed)
b) that each person would have been aware that another 1,999 like minded fans (1,999 plus them = 2,000) were going to swell an area fit for 2,000, thus making 4,000
They were his figures. What the report says is this:
"1.82 The tunnel was directly opposite Gate C and the sign above read: STANDING. The gates at the head of the tunnel were fastened back against the wall. Oblivious to the layout of the terrace, and unable to view the terrace from the tunnel entrance, more than 2,000 fans descended into the already packed central pens."
it also says this
"24. On opening Gate C there was no instruction given to the SYP officers inside the
stadium to manage the flow and direction of the incoming crowd.
25. From the documents provided to the Panel it is clear that the crush at the Leppings
Lane turnstiles outside the stadium was not caused by fans arriving ‘late’ for the
kick-off. The turnstiles were inadequate to process the crowd safely, and the rate of
entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up of people outside the ground."
The truth is that the two central pens had a capacity set at 2,200. The capacity of that whole terrace was significantly greater than that. The central pens were only accessed by the tunnel. There was no stewarding or policing at the tunnel to ensure that fans with tickets would be re-directed away from the tunnel to the side pens. So when the fateful decision to open the exit gate was made, those fans who were being crushed outside the the ground, made for the tunnel entrance which was ahead of them without having any awareness that the central pens were already packed. How can the individual fans be held, as PaulCAFC suggests, to be in breach of a duty of care? The Report is clear, the fans were blameless.
However I don't understand how the fans can take NO blame whatsoever, if there had been zero fans present without tickets then it's quite possible the whole day would have unfolded differently, so surely the fans (those without tickets) must accept at least a small portion of the blame.
The mind boggles on this thread. If the fans were to blame it would've come out, how are people are able to grasp this?! Every question has been answered yet they keep getting asked again and again? I guess some people can't handle the truth. Even the police have accepted it wasn't the fans fault!
A) How many ticketless fans were there ?
I haven't seen this anywhere, although some are convinced, it's these people that are also partly responsible.
Where are the FACTS relating to this ?
*lied and fed the lie to the media that the fans were pissed and broke turn styles down.
*They change (forged) 100--160 statements.
* Top OBill and their Union instructed this conspiracy to be undertaken.
* Thatcher was informed in writing with the comments" statements changed a depressingly faimilure tale"
The last staement says a huge amount about the "best police force in the World".
Some football fans have been jailed for conspiracy with 2-4 years in jail and we have spent MILLIONS investigating phone taping--- GET REAL go after the organisers of this conspiracy.
This does not take away from the fact the the syp/swfc take the majority of the blame, it does not mean that those fans with tickets for the game where ticketless.
I went to Lords without a ticket last month, but 96 people didn't die.
Anyway, how many ticketless fans were there ?
Nobody knows how many ticketless fans where present that day, you already know this, however from looking at the numbers posted above it's pretty obvious there was ticketless fans. I'm not saying these people are the main culprits, just that they must have been partly responsible, as had they not been in the ground there would have been more space for those with tickets. Less people = less of a crush.
This is totally normal crowd behaviour.
Dangerously overestimating a venue's capacity, designing it in such a way that crowds can't easily disperse, opening the doors to the venue so that thousands of people who have turned up to buy touted tickets or try and bunk in can pile in en masse, not allowing adequate numbers of emergency services access to injured people, then lying about every one of these events and laying the blame squarely at the feet of the people at the back of the crowd unknowingly causing the deaths of 96 people is not.