I am not surprised that you (and doubtless most others) don't get what I'm saying, Muttley.
I can only say with some confidence that if that had happened here, the families would not have found any support either from MPs ( you don't even have an MP as such here) or from their community - people would look the other way and get on with their own little lives. There are no mechanisms here for 'independent' commissions and no politician gives a flying feck about investigating past injustices. Indeed a day earlier, the Czech Prime Minister stated that his countrymen should not speak up in support of Pussy Riot because it might damage Czech exports to Russia. (of course the next day Medvedev showed us that international pressure works).
Would it be better in a more "advanced" European country? Scandinavia, probably. Germany, not so sure. Italy, not a chance. USA..if you have the money.
Put it this way. Czechs would never respond and fight the way the Hillsborough families did because they know they have no chance of getting anywhere.
We still have to support them in their push for people to be held accountable.
I think your example can better prove the opposite of what you want it to. The small child is the crowd - It contains innocent football fans like us in their thousands - it also contains a few who are drunk and without tickets but as a crowd it is a single entity - a football crowd with a desire to watch a big game that is about to start and a typical one at that. The same thing happened a few years earlier in a match involving different teams- the difference was that there was a means of escaping the central enclosure then and that undoubtably saved their lives - it wasn't as if there wasn't a lesson that couldn't have been learned.
The Police/authorities are the drunk driver in the example - they know the risks, issues with the stadium but fail to address them. In the past they have got away with it but not today. They also know the behaviours of a footabll crowd, that some will be drunk and ticketless too. You put too many people in too small a space you get danger - irrespective of who those people are and if some might not be particularly nice. You see it happen at Mecca - not a place famed for its football hooligans. There was space in the ground, but the report clearly states that the reason for the outside crush was the organisation and condition of the turnstyles - which was the same reason reason at the close shave match 6 years earlier.
As for the villain - well at the time - the easiest group to dislike was the football fan.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
I generally keep away from Hillsborough discussions but this excuse always really annoys me in relation to anything.
Yes ticketless fans were common, but that does not exclusde them from having a role. Let me put it another way. If a man drink drives 99 times without an accident but on the 100th occasion a small child chases a ball out in the road and is hit and killed, who is to blame. The child probably shouldn't have been running into the road after the ball but it happens and normally drivers are aware enough to stop. The driver who was drunk is to blame. The fact that he has driven driunk many many times without a problem does not mean drink was not a factor and does not mean the blame should go to the child.
Not so easy when the villian is someone who is easy to dislike and the victim is someone no-one wants to blame.
I'm not disputing that there were ticketless fans who bunked in ,but the evidence shows that Leppings Lane's capacity was grossly over calculated anyway and the overcrowding happened in the middle two pens . The side pens looked reasonably comfortable .
It was negligence from SYP /the massives /the FA for allowing Hillsborough to hold such a prestigeous and highly attended match when the ground did not carry a proper safety certificate .It was also grossly negligent to not carry out ticket checks on the way into the ground .
The Police are completely in the frame in my opinion.
I am not surprised that you (and doubtless most others) don't get what I'm saying, Muttley.
I can only say with some confidence that if that had happened here, the families would not have found any support either from MPs ( you don't even have an MP as such here) or from their community - people would look the other way and get on with their own little lives. There are no mechanisms here for 'independent' commissions and no politician gives a flying feck about investigating past injustices. Indeed a day earlier, the Czech Prime Minister stated that his countrymen should not speak up in support of Pussy Riot because it might damage Czech exports to Russia. (of course the next day Medvedev showed us that international pressure works).
Would it be better in a more "advanced" European country? Scandinavia, probably. Germany, not so sure. Italy, not a chance. USA..if you have the money.
Put it this way. Czechs would never respond and fight the way the Hillsborough families did because they know they have no chance of getting anywhere.
We still have to support them in their push for people to be held accountable.
I do get what you are saying - just totally disagree with your sentiment.
I am not surprised that you (and doubtless most others) don't get what I'm saying, Muttley.
I can only say with some confidence that if that had happened here, the families would not have found any support either from MPs ( you don't even have an MP as such here) or from their community - people would look the other way and get on with their own little lives. There are no mechanisms here for 'independent' commissions and no politician gives a flying feck about investigating past injustices. Indeed a day earlier, the Czech Prime Minister stated that his countrymen should not speak up in support of Pussy Riot because it might damage Czech exports to Russia. (of course the next day Medvedev showed us that international pressure works).
Would it be better in a more "advanced" European country? Scandinavia, probably. Germany, not so sure. Italy, not a chance. USA..if you have the money.
Put it this way. Czechs would never respond and fight the way the Hillsborough families did because they know they have no chance of getting anywhere.
We still have to support them in their push for people to be held accountable.
I do get what you are saying - just totally disagree with your sentiment.
Fair enough. Maybe I'll wait until they actually have justice. I'm the last one to be complacent about such things.
I would strongly recommend people to read this report. I am only a quarter way through it but the immense errors from a number of different agencies that helped sow the seeds of this tragedy are mindblowing. I am reading it online so you can dive into the details of the documents referenced.
I think your example can better prove the opposite of what you want it to. The small child is the crowd - It contains innocent football fans like us in their thousands - it also contains a few who are drunk and without tickets but as a crowd it is a single entity - a football crowd with a desire to watch a big game that is about to start and a typical one at that. The same thing happened a few years earlier in a match involving different teams- the difference was that there was a means of escaping the central enclosure then and that undoubtably saved their lives - it wasn't as if there wasn't a lesson that couldn't have been learned.
The Police/authorities are the drunk driver in the example - they know the risks, issues with the stadium but fail to address them. In the past they have got away with it but not today. They also know the behaviours of a footabll crowd, that some will be drunk and ticketless too. You put too many people in too small a space you get danger - irrespective of who those people are and if some might not be particularly nice. You see it happen at Mecca - not a place famed for its football hooligans. There was space in the ground, but the report clearly states that the reason for the outside crush was the organisation and condition of the turnstyles - which was the same reason reason at the close shave match 6 years earlier.
As for the villain - well at the time - the easiest group to dislike was the football fan.
But the thing is, I am not desputing the police played a role. I am disputing that ticketless fans were of no consiquence which is what Friend or Defoe implied.
If you changed any one element out of that day, the disaster would not have happened.
The whole crowd were of consequence because if they had stayed at home there would have been no problem. If the crowd did not behave how all crowds do - then there would have been no consequence -these two facts are equally spurious to the ticketless fans one.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
I was only little at the time so don't remember Hillsborough, and have a genuine question - didn't the Taylor Report show this all 22 years ago? What happened after it in terms of it showing the police were at fault?
I find it very odd that people reel out the 'ticketless 'drunk' fans' argument like that actually explains anything. The minimum requirement of the police and the facilities should be that they’re sufficiently adequate to deal with some people turning up without tickets (whether inebriated or not) without 96 people dying. That they were able to pass this off as a reasonable excuse for a tragedy for so many years is astounding.
I very much doubt that the Liverpool fans acted like angels on the day, that's kind of besides the point though, whether they had tickets or not and even if they'd had a few beers beforehand, even if there were some troublemakers amongst them, no-one here should have died, let alone 96 people.
That the police were inept and grossly negligent is almost forgivable from an individual standpoint (though not when considering the police as an establishment), we all make mistakes and in such a position of responsibility, unfortunately these have the potential to be tragic.
The nature and scale of the cover-up is absolutely not forgivable. It’s shocking and disgusting.
Who appointed the Hillsborough Independent Panel? It consisted of the Bishop of Liverpool Rev Jones, Katy Jones who worked with Jimmy McGovern on his various Liverpool based docu dramas, Professor Phil Scratton from Liverpool, Peter Sissons from Liverpool, Raju Bhutt a lawyer who specialises in Police neglect of duty and four other individuals. When the panel was set up Rev Jones stated "Our overwhelming duty is to the families". Is that panel really independent?
Who appointed the Hillsborough Independent Panel? It consisted of the Bishop of Liverpool Rev Jones, Katy Jones who worked with Jimmy McGovern on his various Liverpool based docu dramas, Professor Phil Scratton from Liverpool, Peter Sissons from Liverpool, Raju Bhutt a lawyer who specialises in Police neglect of duty and four other individuals. When the panel was set up Rev Jones stated "Our overwhelming duty is to the families". Is that panel really independent?
Independent of the police yes.
The competence, or otherwise, of the police was a major issue here so a meaningful investigation surely had to be seen to be independent of the police (as exemplified by the individuals you name) as well as actually be independent.
The crux for me arising from these latest revelations is the realisation that the police tampered with and falsified evidence as well as denigrating the dead with false accusations and statements in attempt to justify what at best was sheer incompetence at worst downright negligence by both themselves and the NHS by virtue of the (lack of) timely response.
I find it very odd that people reel out the 'ticketless 'drunk' fans' argument like that actually explains anything. The minimum requirement of the police and the facilities should be that they’re sufficiently adequate to deal with some people turning up without tickets (whether inebriated or not) without 96 people dying. That they were able to pass this off as a reasonable excuse for a tragedy for so many years is astounding.
I very much doubt that the Liverpool fans acted like angels on the day, that's kind of besides the point though, whether they had tickets or not and even if they'd had a few beers beforehand, even if there were some troublemakers amongst them, no-one here should have died, let alone 96 people.
That the police were inept and grossly negligent is almost forgivable from an individual standpoint (though not when considering the police as an establishment), we all make mistakes and in such a position of responsibility, unfortunately these have the potential to be tragic.
The nature and scale of the cover-up is absolutely not forgivable. It’s shocking and disgusting.
I never once claimed that "drunken ticketless fans" were "to blame for everything" but it would be nice if they could admit to just some of the blame.
I find it very odd that people reel out the 'ticketless 'drunk' fans' argument like that actually explains anything. The minimum requirement of the police and the facilities should be that they’re sufficiently adequate to deal with some people turning up without tickets (whether inebriated or not) without 96 people dying. That they were able to pass this off as a reasonable excuse for a tragedy for so many years is astounding.
I very much doubt that the Liverpool fans acted like angels on the day, that's kind of besides the point though, whether they had tickets or not and even if they'd had a few beers beforehand, even if there were some troublemakers amongst them, no-one here should have died, let alone 96 people.
That the police were inept and grossly negligent is almost forgivable from an individual standpoint (though not when considering the police as an establishment), we all make mistakes and in such a position of responsibility, unfortunately these have the potential to be tragic.
The nature and scale of the cover-up is absolutely not forgivable. It’s shocking and disgusting.
I never once claimed that "drunken ticketless fans" were "to blame for everything" but it would be nice if they could admit to just some of the blame.
Because they have none. There is a difference between having a drink or two prematch and turning up already hammered, and in either case it was the police were not just capable but responsible for making sure the very very small minority of drunk fans didn't cause a problem. They failed and as such almost a hundred people died.
Who appointed the Hillsborough Independent Panel? It consisted of the Bishop of Liverpool Rev Jones, Katy Jones who worked with Jimmy McGovern on his various Liverpool based docu dramas, Professor Phil Scratton from Liverpool, Peter Sissons from Liverpool, Raju Bhutt a lawyer who specialises in Police neglect of duty and four other individuals. When the panel was set up Rev Jones stated "Our overwhelming duty is to the families". Is that panel really independent?
Independent of the police yes.
The competence, or otherwise, of the police was a major issue here so a meaningful investigation surely had to be seen to be independent of the police (as exemplified by the individuals you name) as well as actually be independent.
The crux for me arising from these latest revelations is the realisation that the police tampered with and falsified evidence as well as denigrating the dead with false accusations and statements in attempt to justify what at best was sheer incompetence at worst downright negligence by both themselves and the NHS by virtue of the (lack of) timely response.
Having read the report, I agree Len, that the subsequent behaviour of the Police in changing statements etc, was appalling and should be dealt with in one way or another. I find it difficult to accept that no blame whatsoever is placed with the fans who caused the crush resulting in the accidental tragic deaths. That exit was opened, probably in good faith by Police, to prevent people being crushed outside the ground. When it was opened there was a sudden rush to get into the ground and many went to the already over crowded middle pens. Why, if the pens were totally full, did fans push their way into them. Surely we all have a duty of care to ourselves and others and you cannot fit 4,000 fans into a pen that holds only 2,000 - the clue being that it's full and there is no room. I see that Michael Mansfield is now on the scene - nowhere to be seen at the start of the campaign when families had to fundraise and beg for basic legal advice from local lawyers. The whole thing has been a nightmare from start to now and will continue.
Who appointed the Hillsborough Independent Panel? It consisted of the Bishop of Liverpool Rev Jones, Katy Jones who worked with Jimmy McGovern on his various Liverpool based docu dramas, Professor Phil Scratton from Liverpool, Peter Sissons from Liverpool, Raju Bhutt a lawyer who specialises in Police neglect of duty and four other individuals. When the panel was set up Rev Jones stated "Our overwhelming duty is to the families". Is that panel really independent?
Independent of the police yes.
The competence, or otherwise, of the police was a major issue here so a meaningful investigation surely had to be seen to be independent of the police (as exemplified by the individuals you name) as well as actually be independent.
The crux for me arising from these latest revelations is the realisation that the police tampered with and falsified evidence as well as denigrating the dead with false accusations and statements in attempt to justify what at best was sheer incompetence at worst downright negligence by both themselves and the NHS by virtue of the (lack of) timely response.
Having read the report, I agree Len, that the subsequent behaviour of the Police in changing statements etc, was appalling and should be dealt with in one way or another. I find it difficult to accept that no blame whatsoever is placed with the fans who caused the crush resulting in the accidental tragic deaths. That exit was opened, probably in good faith by Police, to prevent people being crushed outside the ground. When it was opened there was a sudden rush to get into the ground and many went to the already over crowded middle pens. Why, if the pens were totally full, did fans push their way into them. Surely we all have a duty of care to ourselves and others and you cannot fit 4,000 fans into a pen that holds only 2,000 - the clue being that it's full and there is no room. I see that Michael Mansfield is now on the scene - nowhere to be seen at the start of the campaign when families had to fundraise and beg for basic legal advice from local lawyers. The whole thing has been a nightmare from start to now and will continue.
I think we can assume, that if there were thousands still waiting to get in just before KO and some gates were opened, most people would rush in. Do you expect they would not ?
I think it's blindingly obviously at an unfamiliar ground, the fans didn't know the pens were dangerously full. Unless you're assuming they thought "I know what we'll all pile in here and see how many of our fans we can crush to death". In any case, according to the documentary, there was only one sign for the terrace, which was the tunnel for the middle pens.
Yep, 96 lives could've been saved if someone just said, "sorry chaps this is full but there are empty pens on the side." If only they did that instead of dying quietly. Even stranger is how this wasn't mentioned in the Taylor Report or released with the rest of the facts yesterday. Or perhaps there could be a key bit of info which has been explained repeatedly but people choose to ignore?
Yep, 96 lives could've been saved if someone just said, "sorry chaps this is full but there are empty pens on the side." If only they did that instead of dying quietly. Even stranger is how this wasn't mentioned in the Taylor Report or released with the rest of the facts yesterday. Or perhaps there could be a key bit of info which has been explained repeatedly but people choose to ignore?
Okay - so please you tell me who was actually at fault for the carnage..... would you blame the Police, the stadium, the stewards, the medics, the lack of signs telling people not to go into already crowded and overfull pens? Please enlighten me - I feel that no one is now allowed to have any opinion that may show a jot of blame towards the fans who caused the crush from behind.
I think the point that the people who can't seem to let go of the blaming fans issue is that if you had that number of nuns in the crowd you'd get the same result. The crowd becomes a single entity and it was the Police's job to manage it. A problem was that the ground was not only not conducive to filtering outside, but also that the police made no attempt to do so. The had done this for previous games so why not this? The ground did not allow people to enter at a reasonable rate so a backlog built up outside - the were precedents which highlighted this problem that were ignored. Had the barriers that enclosed the central ailes been in place for a game between different clubs in 1981 been present (they weren't then) people would have undoubtably lost their lives.
The people at the back of the crush were trying to get into the terrace to watch the game just before and during kick off- they would have had no insight as to the collective force that would be concentrated on those at the front. They were not a bunch of ticketless drunkards pushing forward trying to kill their fellow fans. I think this will be my last post on this topic- those ignorant enough not to understand what the report has clearly and thoroughly explained either haven't read it or are too thick to understand it.
I think the point that the people who can't seem to let go of the blaming fans issue is that if you had that number of nuns in the crowd you'd get the same result. The crowd becomes a single entity and it was the Police's job to manage it. A problem was that the ground was not only not conducive to filtering outside, but also that the police made no attempt to do so. The had done this for previous games so why not this? The ground did not allow people to enter at a reasonable rate so a backlog built up outside - the were precedents which highlighted this problem that were ignored. Had the barriers that enclosed the central ailes been in place for a game between different clubs in 1981 been present (they weren't then) people would have undoubtably lost their lives.
The people at the back of the crush were trying to get into the terrace to watch the game just before and during kick off- they would have had no insight as to the collective force that would be concentrated on those at the front. They were not a bunch of ticketless drunkards pushing forward trying to kill their fellow fans. I think this will be my last post on this topic- those ignorant enough not to understand what the report has clearly and thoroughly explained either haven't read it or are too thick to understand it.
You call other people thick, yet you use an analogy comparing football fans and nuns, then blaming the Police for failing to control the crowd. Glad its your last post on the topic.
Comments
I can only say with some confidence that if that had happened here, the families would not have found any support either from MPs ( you don't even have an MP as such here) or from their community - people would look the other way and get on with their own little lives. There are no mechanisms here for 'independent' commissions and no politician gives a flying feck about investigating past injustices. Indeed a day earlier, the Czech Prime Minister stated that his countrymen should not speak up in support of Pussy Riot because it might damage Czech exports to Russia. (of course the next day Medvedev showed us that international pressure works).
Would it be better in a more "advanced" European country? Scandinavia, probably. Germany, not so sure. Italy, not a chance. USA..if you have the money.
Put it this way. Czechs would never respond and fight the way the Hillsborough families did because they know they have no chance of getting anywhere.
We still have to support them in their push for people to be held accountable.
The Police/authorities are the drunk driver in the example - they know the risks, issues with the stadium but fail to address them. In the past they have got away with it but not today. They also know the behaviours of a footabll crowd, that some will be drunk and ticketless too. You put too many people in too small a space you get danger - irrespective of who those people are and if some might not be particularly nice. You see it happen at Mecca - not a place famed for its football hooligans. There was space in the ground, but the report clearly states that the reason for the outside crush was the organisation and condition of the turnstyles - which was the same reason reason at the close shave match 6 years earlier.
As for the villain - well at the time - the easiest group to dislike was the football fan.
I'm not disputing that there were ticketless fans who bunked in ,but the evidence shows that Leppings Lane's capacity was grossly over calculated anyway and the overcrowding happened in the middle two pens . The side pens looked reasonably comfortable .
It was negligence from SYP /the massives /the FA for allowing Hillsborough to hold such a prestigeous and highly attended match when the ground did not carry a proper safety certificate .It was also grossly negligent to not carry out ticket checks on the way into the ground .
The Police are completely in the frame in my opinion.
If you changed any one element out of that day, the disaster would not have happened.
I very much doubt that the Liverpool fans acted like angels on the day, that's kind of besides the point though, whether they had tickets or not and even if they'd had a few beers beforehand, even if there were some troublemakers amongst them, no-one here should have died, let alone 96 people.
That the police were inept and grossly negligent is almost forgivable from an individual standpoint (though not when considering the police as an establishment), we all make mistakes and in such a position of responsibility, unfortunately these have the potential to be tragic.
The nature and scale of the cover-up is absolutely not forgivable. It’s shocking and disgusting.
The competence, or otherwise, of the police was a major issue here so a meaningful investigation surely had to be seen to be independent of the police (as exemplified by the individuals you name) as well as actually be independent.
The crux for me arising from these latest revelations is the realisation that the police tampered with and falsified evidence as well as denigrating the dead with false accusations and statements in attempt to justify what at best was sheer incompetence at worst downright negligence by both themselves and the NHS by virtue of the (lack of) timely response.
I think it's blindingly obviously at an unfamiliar ground, the fans didn't know the pens were dangerously full. Unless you're assuming they thought "I know what we'll all pile in here and see how many of our fans we can crush to death".
In any case, according to the documentary, there was only one sign for the terrace, which was the tunnel for the middle pens.
Nice it's not just me that sees this side of things
The people at the back of the crush were trying to get into the terrace to watch the game just before and during kick off- they would have had no insight as to the collective force that would be concentrated on those at the front. They were not a bunch of ticketless drunkards pushing forward trying to kill their fellow fans. I think this will be my last post on this topic- those ignorant enough not to understand what the report has clearly and thoroughly explained either haven't read it or are too thick to understand it.