Time for this to stop now. The fact that the people who died were not drunk or causing trouble or that the polis cocked it up then lied were kind of evident the week after it happened. The report has stated - and society as a whole seems to think - that individuals fans bear no responsibility wether they were trying to bunk in or not. Nobody on here is capable of having a debate it is always just a series of individuals spouting their own concrete set view, so don't for one second imagine that any of you will be converting anyone with your observations. Maybe everyone should STFU and let the 96 poor sods that died because they went to a football match have a bit of peace.
Of course if the families had STFU - those innocent people who lost their lives would not have had justice. And they haven't had justice yet - just a big step towards it. The next step may require people, and I include in that the community of football fans to be vocal and not let this be swept under the carpet. We could quite easily get the 'this was a terrible thing but it would not be possible or helpful to start punishing people for things that happened over 20 years ago. Memories will have faded. people will in some cases no longer be here...... etc... etc...' That can't happen - what should have happened in the aftermath of the disaster needs to happen now. Those responsible have to be punished out of respect for the dead and their families and for justice to prevail.
We often forget in our world of football rivalries that football fans that support other teams have more in common with us than most of the people we meet and inetract with on a day to day basis. Tonight we play Palace- and I so want to beat them because I have a deep dislike for the club and on a superficial level their fans - but I also realise that in truth Palace have decent people who support them as do all clubs. People like us - If you go on their forums, they are probably discussing the same topics as we are. In times of tragedy we need to remember that these people are fellow football fans and we are part of a wider brotherhood. We shouldn't allow what are manufactured rivalries that spice up the games and atmospheres to get out of hand and influence our actions too widely.
Saga, spot on, I was just trying to say that the increasingly polarised views on here were not resolving or informing anything. Obviously wasn't suggesting that the families didn't have a right to pursue the truth, their interest in closing this is healthier than what is being played out in the context of this forum.
Just had this lovely inbox from Draizetrain. Thought I'd share it. For the record, this is the guy earlier in the thread who blamed Hillsborough on the Liverpool fans.
"...and you're an utter tosser so there you go."
I'm glad someone told me this early!
And seeing as you want to bring this out in public do you want to say what you INITIALLY called me in full view of the forum? I simply retaliated in a similar fashion to your own attack but chose to do it just between you and me in private. If you cant take it then maybe you should be more careful dishing it out rather than only telling half a story that suits you then bleating to the rest of the forum `Look everyone, the bad man swore at me!'. Grow up for Gods sake.
And as for me totally blaming Hillsborough on the liverpool fans, don't be so bloody stupid and learn to read. We all know the police f***** up on a biblical level and did their usual trick of acting in a truly disgusting manner in their handling of the cover-up after the events. As has happened time and time again over many years they know no bounds as to how low they will stoop to save their own scrawny necks. I simply said that a section of the Liverpool fans that turned up on mass, worse for booze and ticketless contributed PARTIALLY (do you see this word?? I used it in my initial post, it's quite important...you chose to ignore it it seems) to the events that unfolded and that to this day they refuse to accept ANY responsibility, ANY at all, to how their actions affected subsequent events and that I find that stance equally appalling, particularly in regards to respect for the families of the people who died.
Now thats my view ISSS. I couldn't give a toss if you don't agree with me or not, your choice. I find your obvious position that the ENTIRE thing was the creation, execution and fabrication of the South Yorkshire Police Force unrealistic and nieve but if you attack and swear at me without saying anything else (as you did) then i'm gonna come back at ya. Live with it.
Right Reverend James Jones, Bishop of Liverpool = Liverpool bias Raju Bhatt, law firm specialising in civil service negligence = anti police bias Katy Jones Journalist with strong links to Liverpool = Liverpool bias Professor Phil Scraton, from Merseyside = Liverpool Bias Peter Sissons Journalist from Liverpool = Liverpool bias
Two were included for their knowledge of how public records are kept and how to interrogate them, so I personally doubt they played much part in reaching the conclusions.
Sorry but for me that is a clear and massive bias towards the people of liverpool. If they wanted a purely independent panel it should arguably have had no-one connected with Liverpool or Sheffield involved, but certainly not a heavy majority.
I am neither pro or anti Scouse or Police. I am a football supporter who wants to enjoy matches in safety. Sadly the poor souls at Hillsborough were not so lucky that day.
As a supporter I want any investigation into football safety to be comprehensive and objective so that everyone can learn lessons from the tragedy and prevent them from happening again. This requires a degree of detachment and objectivity which needs people to put aside any preconceptions and prejudices. Much of the safety investigation work and recommendations were done by Lord Justice Taylor and nobody could accuse him of being pro Liverpool or pro football. Whether or not you agree with everything that Taylor recommended, it is clear that mercifully we have not had another Hillsborough and this is in no small part due to an impartial investigation. From my reading of the latest report there do not appear to be any substantial new safety recommendations. There is however, a damning expose of the cover up by SYP and others.
I think that the point made by DRF is that the panel are potentially open to criticism of having a preconceived view and being accused of being selective with the use of information. That's something we will probably never know, but we do know that he SYP were extremely selective with its use of information. I did a very small amount of work with some members of the Hillsborough panel. I don't buy the idea of blind, unquestioning bias towards Liverpool but I would say that I felt that there was at least a sympathetic alignment with the aims of some high profile groups from that city. For what it's worth my only observation is that perhaps people less sympathetic and aligned would have not exposed the scandalous SYP cover up.
Can I just say, and I'm not going to get involved in the bickering, that no one has mentioned the fencing at the front of the terrace. From what I remember of them they were designed, and we're very successful, at keeping fans off the pitch. Some of them had spikes on the top - seriously, how inhumain were they?
If they hadn't been there that day the fans would have just spilled onto the pitch. Sure it would have interrupted the game, but it would, in my view, have prevented many, if not all, of the fatalities.
All the accurate comments about the various pens and the inaccurate capacities of the terrace would have been irrelevant if there had been access to the pitch from the front of the terrace.
Looking back I can't believe that we lived in a world where citizens were not, sufficiently, trusted to be kept away from the pitch that they had to put up eight foot fences with spikes on the top!
Of course this report does not blame the fans. It was written by a panel from Liverpool. They were independent (indeed possibly anti) police. They certainly were not independent of Liverpool.
To draw conclusions from this report on the impact of fans, ticketless or otherwise is short-sighted.
The only thing that surprised me about this report is that it could not find evidence of government collusion in a cover-up and could not hold Maggie Thatcher personally accountable for murder.
Right Reverend James Jones, Bishop of Liverpool = Liverpool bias Raju Bhatt, law firm specialising in civil service negligence = anti police bias Katy Jones Journalist with strong links to Liverpool = Liverpool bias Professor Phil Scraton, from Merseyside = Liverpool Bias Peter Sissons Journalist from Liverpool = Liverpool bias
Two were included for their knowledge of how public records are kept and how to interrogate them, so I personally doubt they played much part in reaching the conclusions.
Sorry but for me that is a clear and massive bias towards the people of liverpool. If they wanted a purely independent panel it should arguably have had no-one connected with Liverpool or Sheffield involved, but certainly not a heavy majority.
I am neither pro or anti Scouse or Police. I am a football supporter who wants to enjoy matches in safety. Sadly the poor souls at Hillsborough were not so lucky that day.
As a supporter I want any investigation into football safety to be comprehensive and objective so that everyone can learn lessons from the tragedy and prevent them from happening again. This requires a degree of detachment and objectivity which needs people to put aside any preconceptions and prejudices. Much of the safety investigation work and recommendations were done by Lord Justice Taylor and nobody could accuse him of being pro Liverpool or pro football. Whether or not you agree with everything that Taylor recommended, it is clear that mercifully we have not had another Hillsborough and this is in no small part due to an impartial investigation. From my reading of the latest report there do not appear to be any substantial new safety recommendations. There is however, a damning expose of the cover up by SYP and others.
I think that the point made by DRF is that the panel are potentially open to criticism of having a preconceived view and being accused of being selective with the use of information. That's something we will probably never know, but we do know that he SYP were extremely selective with its use of information. I did a very small amount of work with some members of the Hillsborough panel. I don't buy the idea of blind, unquestioning bias towards Liverpool but I would say that I felt that there was at least a sympathetic alignment with the aims of some high profile groups from that city. For what it's worth my only observation is that perhaps people less sympathetic and aligned would have not exposed the scandalous SYP cover up.
Can I just say, and I'm not going to get involved in the bickering, that no one has mentioned the fencing at the front of the terrace. From what I remember of them they were designed, and we're very successful, at keeping fans off the pitch. Some of them had spikes on the top - seriously, how inhumain were they?
If they hadn't been there that day the fans would have just spilled onto the pitch. Sure it would have interrupted the game, but it would, in my view, have prevented many, if not all, of the fatalities.
All the accurate comments about the various pens and the inaccurate capacities of the terrace would have been irrelevant if there had been access to the pitch from the front of the terrace.
Looking back I can't believe that we lived in a world where citizens were not, sufficiently, trusted to be kept away from the pitch that they had to put up eight foot fences with spikes on the top!
This brings into play perhaps one of the greatest culprits in this whole sorry, sad affair: the government and the Iron Lady in particular.
The report is critical of the SYP for focussing entirely on the hooliganism aspect but I believed then and still firmly believe today that that tone came from no. 10: The worst thing that could possibly happen at a football match was a pitch invasion.
I recall back in April 1985 watching a local news report about a Ken Bates proposal to put an electric fence around Stamford Bridge and going beserk in front of the TV. My mother was rather taken aback as that is not my usual style and asked me why I felt so strongly about it and I explained that in the event of an emergency the quickest escape route was onto the pitch.
2 or 3 weeks later we sat together in front of the same tv and watched the news coverage of the Valley Parade fire. I recall clearly my mother's reaction as she watched those horrific pictures. "I see what you mean".
This week's report suggests there is blame to apportioned in many directions, and that is hardly unsurprising. It's in the nature of disasters that they involve multiple levels of failure. If they didn't disasters would happen all the time because humans cock up with depressing frequency. But it seems to me that there is a single common factor to the 3 major football disasters of the late 20-century:
The majority of the victims at Bradford died because they tried to escape through the entrances - which had been locked.
39 people died at Heysel because a wall collapsed. Without that wall there would undoubtedly have been an incursion onto the pitch but the 39 would probably have survived.
96 people died at Hillsborough because fences (with inadequate and locked exit gates) were in place to prevent pitch invasions.
The conslusion to me is obvious: walls and fences have the potential to kill. The message was very clear in the Popplewell report after Valley Parade. My mother learned that lesson in May 1985 but it seems the government took the alternative view that public decorum must be maintained at all times - even if that meant the loss of 96 innocent lives.
Another comment in that report which I find particularly damning is the one about delaying the kick-off: the teams were already on the pitch. It was possibly too late to do it without revealing just what incompent prats they were (and we all know that now in any case) but possibly not too late to save the majority of those 96 lives
Cheers, but why are South Yorkshire mass murderers now?
read this, taken from OT - 'Unfortunate...slating a whole county.....Maybe they should come over the Pennines and wave that in front of the hospital staff who worked all fookin' night that night...and...then donated our wages to a disaster fund....maybe they can wave it in front of me wife who went in and worked all night when she was on maternity leave....what a bloody idiotic thing to do...spend 23 years fighting to clear names....and rightly so in my opinion...then accusing innocent hard working folk of murder...totally insensitive...all fooking week to think of summatt to say and they scrawl that crap across a banner.....I am only associated with that bleedin' tragedy by the fact I'm a Wednesday fan and hospital worker...I killed no fooker...I didn't design the fences on the Lepp....I didn't pick the ground for a semi final...the only fookin' certificate ive ever needed was not a safety certificate, but a fire certificate for near on every fookin' item I bring to Hillsborough...It saddens me that post Hillsborough...in the immediate aftermath Scouse football fans were thanking residents of Hillsborough for opening their doors to the shocked and bewildered...cups of tea and phone calls ..now these same folk are branded "Mass murderers" by Liverpool supporters.....I have felt guilty all week...fook knows why...i have always supported the Families who lost loved ones in that insane afternoon...I still fully sympathise..but after seeing that sh*te...I am moving on...R.I.P the 96....and god go with the families still mourning...the rest of fookin' Liverpool, the band wagon jumping bleeding heart hypocrites..can stand hanging... '
Wonder what the Odds are for a Wednesday v Liverpool 3rd Round F.A cup tie this year?
I just can't believe that even after everything that has gone on in the past twenty three years the truth has finally come out. To think the police and certain people covered up the truth is sick. 96 innocent people went to a game to watch a team they love and adore like us died. To all those idiots still going on about how the fans are to blame and how corrupt the panel was, imagine if that happened to Charlton and your family/friends were involved and the Met police covered it up for years. I think the HJC has done a amazing job, just kept going when most people would have given up not because they are anti-police or anti-English but because the people who died that day deseverd the truth.
Of course there were some people there hoping to get in without tickets. Every sellout crowd has people trying for find a way to get in.
The population at large were used to hearing about trouble at football matches. The news bulletins were full of images of disgraceful scenes at football stadia, pitch battles at Luton, the Heysel Tragedy and many others.
On the one hand there were Liverpool fans telling of the tragedy of what occurred on that afternoon. We saw some of it with our own eyes, makeshift stretchers being used to carry the injured and the dead away by fans trying to help. On the other hand there was a massive falsehood presented to the public by the actions of the South Yorkshire Police which started pretty much immediately.
Who were the public more likely to believe? The Police knew this. With the help of a tame local press agency and a local Tory MP who had an anti-football agenda, they managed, very quickly, to produce a story which claimed that drunken, ticketless fans, stormed the Leppings Lane end, pushed their way in and they caused the crush that killed their fellow fans. Indeed those that were killed may have been masters of the own misfortune. On top of that they accused fans of "animalistic" behaviour, of stealing from the dead, of urinating on police. This story made its way into the national press and was picked up and amplified massively by the Sun - the paper with UK's largest circulation. The damage was done. The mud that was thrown stuck.
Despite Taylor, largely blaming the Police. The Police continued to push there line at the inquest and then at the private prosecutions that followed.
In the minds of many, it was the fans who caused it because, well it had to be as there was a history of misbehaviour at football. People make judgements based on how things are presented which accord with their core beliefs.
I don't have an issue with those unconnected with this tragedy who, having been fed the police's line, accepted it.
I do have a problem now with people who can't accept the findings of this panel. Saying that because many of them come from Liverpool, they are not independent just flies in the face of the evidence they have uncovered for the first time, and the evidence already known from Taylor which was largely drowned out by what happen at the Inquests and trials.
We live in a fantastic age where we have instant access to the evidence. We don't need politicians or the vile MacKenzie to interpret it for us, we can read it for our selves. It is there in black and white. It couldn't be clearer. I'll spell it out once more:
The Police failed to control the numbers of fans in the two central pens. Because of the design of the ground in that area, it required those controlling the crowd to ensure that the area of the two pens were shut off once the crowd in those areas reached a certain level. They didn't do this. Had they have controlled this, drunk, ticketless or otherwise it would have made no difference, those in those two pens would not have been crushed sufficiently to kill them. The fans did not cause it.
I seem to remember reading somewhere ages ago that as well as people being crushed up against the front fence and when the crush barrier gave way, there were also a number of people who died in the tunnel at the back. Is that right?
Cheers, but why are South Yorkshire mass murderers now?
read this, taken from OT - 'Unfortunate...slating a whole county.....Maybe they should come over the Pennines and wave that in front of the hospital staff who worked all fookin' night that night...and...then donated our wages to a disaster fund....maybe they can wave it in front of me wife who went in and worked all night when she was on maternity leave....what a bloody idiotic thing to do...spend 23 years fighting to clear names....and rightly so in my opinion...then accusing innocent hard working folk of murder...totally insensitive...all fooking week to think of summatt to say and they scrawl that crap across a banner.....I am only associated with that bleedin' tragedy by the fact I'm a Wednesday fan and hospital worker...I killed no fooker...I didn't design the fences on the Lepp....I didn't pick the ground for a semi final...the only fookin' certificate ive ever needed was not a safety certificate, but a fire certificate for near on every fookin' item I bring to Hillsborough...It saddens me that post Hillsborough...in the immediate aftermath Scouse football fans were thanking residents of Hillsborough for opening their doors to the shocked and bewildered...cups of tea and phone calls ..now these same folk are branded "Mass murderers" by Liverpool supporters.....I have felt guilty all week...fook knows why...i have always supported the Families who lost loved ones in that insane afternoon...I still fully sympathise..but after seeing that sh*te...I am moving on...R.I.P the 96....and god go with the families still mourning...the rest of fookin' Liverpool, the band wagon jumping bleeding heart hypocrites..can stand hanging... '
PLEASE LEARN TO READ ! it says mass murders, not murderers. The message is that they were murders not that the population of Yorkshire are murdreres. If you cant see the distinction please shut up.
Wonder what the Odds are for a Wednesday v Liverpool 3rd Round F.A cup tie this year?
Hugo Z commented: 'This brings into play perhaps one of the greatest culprits in this whole sorry, sad affair: the government and the Iron Lady in particular.'
You made this in references to the fencing of football pitches. Had it not been for fans who invaded pitches in the 70's and 80's, the fences wouldn't have been needed in the first place. Something clearly needed to be done to prevent pitch invasions and fences were considered the best option at the time. With hindsight this proved wrong, but the ultimate blame must lie with those who invaded pitches, causing the fences to be there. If the fences had not been there then 96 people would not have died. Whatever the cause of the crush that day, it was the fences which resulted in 96 people dying.
Any rational analysis would say that if there hadn't been the pitch invasions there wouldn't have been the fences and therefore perhaps ultimately the pitch-invaders must bear their share of the responsibility.
But perimeter fences were never a good idea - at least in the way that they were implemented. There were clear inherent dangers and they were ignored. The were certainly always clear to me (and bear in mind they were erected at a time when the IRA were active and bombs were a constant fear at football matches) and if they weren't clear to the PM then it can only be because her style of government was sufficiently autocratic to effectlively suppress the desire of anybody in a position to point out the weaknesses in the plan to actually do so.
One of the very obvious questions which I have never seen answered is "why didn't some just take it upon themselves to open the perimterer gates?" There were police officers on the pitch who must have seen what was happening.
It was very interesting to read in the report (2.1.7) that in 1981, faced with a similar situation then Inspector Roger Greenwood, the man who was in charge of policing inside the ground on the fateful day, has taken it upon himself to open the perimeter gates to relieve crowd pressure because he couldn't get a response from the control box. I can only assume that in the intervening 8 years the climate had changed to such an extent that no-one was prepared to take that initiative and risk being seen as complicit in a pitch invasion.
There's a difference between government ministers, police officers and Millwall fans: I contribute towards the slaries of the first 2 groups (albeit not SYP) and so they owe me a duty of care.
I expect Margaret Thatcher was acting on advice given to her and to blame her personally is ridiculous.
The only good thing that did come from the Hillsborough tragedy was that fans were far more restrained in invading pitches afterwards. I hope it will always be remembered, so that we never go back to days when pitch invasions were common.
Rumour has it Maggie Thatcher ordered the gates to be opened and also oganised transport from Liverpool to the game for anyone who didn't have a ticket - someone said she even drove one of the coaches and insisted on stopping at the Pitmans arms. And she also personally re-wrote the police officers' statements for them. By hand. Herself. On her own.
Comments
I posted earlier that even the ex Tory MP who spread the story has accepted he was mistaken .
We often forget in our world of football rivalries that football fans that support other teams have more in common with us than most of the people we meet and inetract with on a day to day basis. Tonight we play Palace- and I so want to beat them because I have a deep dislike for the club and on a superficial level their fans - but I also realise that in truth Palace have decent people who support them as do all clubs. People like us - If you go on their forums, they are probably discussing the same topics as we are. In times of tragedy we need to remember that these people are fellow football fans and we are part of a wider brotherhood. We shouldn't allow what are manufactured rivalries that spice up the games and atmospheres to get out of hand and influence our actions too widely.
Will the electorate remember this at the next election?
Probably not
And as for me totally blaming Hillsborough on the liverpool fans, don't be so bloody stupid and learn to read. We all know the police f***** up on a biblical level and did their usual trick of acting in a truly disgusting manner in their handling of the cover-up after the events. As has happened time and time again over many years they know no bounds as to how low they will stoop to save their own scrawny necks.
I simply said that a section of the Liverpool fans that turned up on mass, worse for booze and ticketless contributed PARTIALLY (do you see this word?? I used it in my initial post, it's quite important...you chose to ignore it it seems) to the events that unfolded and that to this day they refuse to accept ANY responsibility, ANY at all, to how their actions affected subsequent events and that I find that stance equally appalling, particularly in regards to respect for the families of the people who died.
Now thats my view ISSS. I couldn't give a toss if you don't agree with me or not, your choice. I find your obvious position that the ENTIRE thing was the creation, execution and fabrication of the South Yorkshire Police Force unrealistic and nieve but if you attack and swear at me without saying anything else (as you did) then i'm gonna come back at ya. Live with it.
As a supporter I want any investigation into football safety to be comprehensive and objective so that everyone can learn lessons from the tragedy and prevent them from happening again. This requires a degree of detachment and objectivity which needs people to put aside any preconceptions and prejudices. Much of the safety investigation work and recommendations were done by Lord Justice Taylor and nobody could accuse him of being pro Liverpool or pro football. Whether or not you agree with everything that Taylor recommended, it is clear that mercifully we have not had another Hillsborough and this is in no small part due to an impartial investigation. From my reading of the latest report there do not appear to be any substantial new safety recommendations. There is however, a damning expose of the cover up by SYP and others.
I think that the point made by DRF is that the panel are potentially open to criticism of having a preconceived view and being accused of being selective with the use of information. That's something we will probably never know, but we do know that he SYP were extremely selective with its use of information. I did a very small amount of work with some members of the Hillsborough panel. I don't buy the idea of blind, unquestioning bias towards Liverpool but I would say that I felt that there was at least a sympathetic alignment with the aims of some high profile groups from that city. For what it's worth my only observation is that perhaps people less sympathetic and aligned would have not exposed the scandalous SYP cover up.
If they hadn't been there that day the fans would have just spilled onto the pitch. Sure it would have interrupted the game, but it would, in my view, have prevented many, if not all, of the fatalities.
All the accurate comments about the various pens and the inaccurate capacities of the terrace would have been irrelevant if there had been access to the pitch from the front of the terrace.
Looking back I can't believe that we lived in a world where citizens were not, sufficiently, trusted to be kept away from the pitch that they had to put up eight foot fences with spikes on the top!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19584313
This brings into play perhaps one of the greatest culprits in this whole sorry, sad affair: the government and the Iron Lady in particular.
The report is critical of the SYP for focussing entirely on the hooliganism aspect but I believed then and still firmly believe today that that tone came from no. 10: The worst thing that could possibly happen at a football match was a pitch invasion.
I recall back in April 1985 watching a local news report about a Ken Bates proposal to put an electric fence around Stamford Bridge and going beserk in front of the TV. My mother was rather taken aback as that is not my usual style and asked me why I felt so strongly about it and I explained that in the event of an emergency the quickest escape route was onto the pitch.
2 or 3 weeks later we sat together in front of the same tv and watched the news coverage of the Valley Parade fire. I recall clearly my mother's reaction as she watched those horrific pictures. "I see what you mean".
This week's report suggests there is blame to apportioned in many directions, and that is hardly unsurprising. It's in the nature of disasters that they involve multiple levels of failure. If they didn't disasters would happen all the time because humans cock up with depressing frequency. But it seems to me that there is a single common factor to the 3 major football disasters of the late 20-century:
The majority of the victims at Bradford died because they tried to escape through the entrances - which had been locked.
39 people died at Heysel because a wall collapsed. Without that wall there would undoubtedly have been an incursion onto the pitch but the 39 would probably have survived.
96 people died at Hillsborough because fences (with inadequate and locked exit gates) were in place to prevent pitch invasions.
The conslusion to me is obvious: walls and fences have the potential to kill. The message was very clear in the Popplewell report after Valley Parade. My mother learned that lesson in May 1985 but it seems the government took the alternative view that public decorum must be maintained at all times - even if that meant the loss of 96 innocent lives.
read this, taken from OT - 'Unfortunate...slating a whole county.....Maybe they should come over the Pennines and wave that in front of the hospital staff who worked all fookin' night that night...and...then donated our wages to a disaster fund....maybe they can wave it in front of me wife who went in and worked all night when she was on maternity leave....what a bloody idiotic thing to do...spend 23 years fighting to clear names....and rightly so in my opinion...then accusing innocent hard working folk of murder...totally insensitive...all fooking week to think of summatt to say and they scrawl that crap across a banner.....I am only associated with that bleedin' tragedy by the fact I'm a Wednesday fan and hospital worker...I killed no fooker...I didn't design the fences on the Lepp....I didn't pick the ground for a semi final...the only fookin' certificate ive ever needed was not a safety certificate, but a fire certificate for near on every fookin' item I bring to Hillsborough...It saddens me that post Hillsborough...in the immediate aftermath Scouse football fans were thanking residents of Hillsborough for opening their doors to the shocked and bewildered...cups of tea and phone calls ..now these same folk are branded "Mass murderers" by Liverpool supporters.....I have felt guilty all week...fook knows why...i have always supported the Families who lost loved ones in that insane afternoon...I still fully sympathise..but after seeing that sh*te...I am moving on...R.I.P the 96....and god go with the families still mourning...the rest of fookin' Liverpool, the band wagon jumping bleeding heart hypocrites..can stand hanging... '
Wonder what the Odds are for a Wednesday v Liverpool 3rd Round F.A cup tie this year?
The population at large were used to hearing about trouble at football matches. The news bulletins were full of images of disgraceful scenes at football stadia, pitch battles at Luton, the Heysel Tragedy and many others.
On the one hand there were Liverpool fans telling of the tragedy of what occurred on that afternoon. We saw some of it with our own eyes, makeshift stretchers being used to carry the injured and the dead away by fans trying to help. On the other hand there was a massive falsehood presented to the public by the actions of the South Yorkshire Police which started pretty much immediately.
Who were the public more likely to believe? The Police knew this. With the help of a tame local press agency and a local Tory MP who had an anti-football agenda, they managed, very quickly, to produce a story which claimed that drunken, ticketless fans, stormed the Leppings Lane end, pushed their way in and they caused the crush that killed their fellow fans. Indeed those that were killed may have been masters of the own misfortune. On top of that they accused fans of "animalistic" behaviour, of stealing from the dead, of urinating on police. This story made its way into the national press and was picked up and amplified massively by the Sun - the paper with UK's largest circulation. The damage was done. The mud that was thrown stuck.
Despite Taylor, largely blaming the Police. The Police continued to push there line at the inquest and then at the private prosecutions that followed.
In the minds of many, it was the fans who caused it because, well it had to be as there was a history of misbehaviour at football. People make judgements based on how things are presented which accord with their core beliefs.
I don't have an issue with those unconnected with this tragedy who, having been fed the police's line, accepted it.
I do have a problem now with people who can't accept the findings of this panel. Saying that because many of them come from Liverpool, they are not independent just flies in the face of the evidence they have uncovered for the first time, and the evidence already known from Taylor which was largely drowned out by what happen at the Inquests and trials.
We live in a fantastic age where we have instant access to the evidence. We don't need politicians or the vile MacKenzie to interpret it for us, we can read it for our selves. It is there in black and white. It couldn't be clearer. I'll spell it out once more:
The Police failed to control the numbers of fans in the two central pens. Because of the design of the ground in that area, it required those controlling the crowd to ensure that the area of the two pens were shut off once the crowd in those areas reached a certain level. They didn't do this. Had they have controlled this, drunk, ticketless or otherwise it would have made no difference, those in those two pens would not have been crushed sufficiently to kill them. The fans did not cause it.
Can't seem to find anything on it now.
'This brings into play perhaps one of the greatest culprits in this whole sorry, sad affair: the government and the Iron Lady in particular.'
You made this in references to the fencing of football pitches. Had it not been for fans who invaded pitches in the 70's and 80's, the fences wouldn't have been needed in the first place. Something clearly needed to be done to prevent pitch invasions and fences were considered the best option at the time. With hindsight this proved wrong, but the ultimate blame must lie with those who invaded pitches, causing the fences to be there. If the fences had not been there then 96 people would not have died. Whatever the cause of the crush that day, it was the fences which resulted in 96 people dying.
Any rational analysis would say that if there hadn't been the pitch invasions there wouldn't have been the fences and therefore perhaps ultimately the pitch-invaders must bear their share of the responsibility.
But perimeter fences were never a good idea - at least in the way that they were implemented. There were clear inherent dangers and they were ignored. The were certainly always clear to me (and bear in mind they were erected at a time when the IRA were active and bombs were a constant fear at football matches) and if they weren't clear to the PM then it can only be because her style of government was sufficiently autocratic to effectlively suppress the desire of anybody in a position to point out the weaknesses in the plan to actually do so.
One of the very obvious questions which I have never seen answered is "why didn't some just take it upon themselves to open the perimterer gates?" There were police officers on the pitch who must have seen what was happening.
It was very interesting to read in the report (2.1.7) that in 1981, faced with a similar situation then Inspector Roger Greenwood, the man who was in charge of policing inside the ground on the fateful day, has taken it upon himself to open the perimeter gates to relieve crowd pressure because he couldn't get a response from the control box. I can only assume that in the intervening 8 years the climate had changed to such an extent that no-one was prepared to take that initiative and risk being seen as complicit in a pitch invasion.
There's a difference between government ministers, police officers and Millwall fans: I contribute towards the slaries of the first 2 groups (albeit not SYP) and so they owe me a duty of care.
The only good thing that did come from the Hillsborough tragedy was that fans were far more restrained in invading pitches afterwards. I hope it will always be remembered, so that we never go back to days when pitch invasions were common.
#apparantly