The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
Of course - had any ticketless fans, not that there were any, not rushed through the gates and into the tunnel then the crush created at the front of the terrace would have been just the same.
The point of the report is that the police could have kept the fans outside of the stand if they had wante to do so, but for what ever reason they opend the gates to let these extra fans into the already overcrowded stands. Was this because thaycould not be bothered to carry out the needed crowd control, or where the authorities looking for a major crowd incident so that the Thatcher government could bring in draconian laws against football fans.
The point of the report is that the police could have kept the fans outside of the stand if they had wante to do so, but for what ever reason they opend the gates to let these extra fans into the already overcrowded stands. Was this because thaycould not be bothered to carry out the needed crowd control, or where the authorities looking for a major crowd incident so that the Thatcher government could bring in draconian laws against football fans.
Duckenfield was a new appointee who didn't have a clue what he was doing. What is sickening me now is the disorderly queue of politicians trying to avoid any semblance of responsibility. I remain convinced that they knew there were huge cans of worms and that they did everything they could to avoid looking at them let alone open them.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
Of course - had any ticketless fans, not that there were any, not rushed through the gates and into the tunnel then the crush created at the front of the terrace would have been just the same.
No one has ever claimed that there weren't any ticketless fans. You're missing the real issues here.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Read some of the documents released. The ground was unfit. The size of the North West Terrace Upper part of the Leppings Lane area was miscalculated to be larger than it was. The capacity for the area on that day was 2,800. It was subsequently reduced first to 2,300 which was found to be dangerously too high at a subsequent Wed v Blades cup game and was then reduced to 1,500.
There were problems at previous games but the lack of organisation by the police on that fateful day meant that not only was the area already almost twice as over-crowded as was subsequently deemed safe, but the lack of control mean't that the vast majority went into the two central pens compounding the problem. A crash barrier then collapsed with the crush turning a disaster into a catastrophe.
In short it was a disaster waiting to happen, even if they had managed the flow better and filled all the pens evenly, as the capacity was far too high for the area. There had been problems at previous games and nothing was done about it - see the Wolves/Spurs clip.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
Of course - had any ticketless fans, not that there were any, not rushed through the gates and into the tunnel then the crush created at the front of the terrace would have been just the same.
Read my last post. The capacity was fatally set too high. The police failed to manage the crowd into an area which was already far too small for the number of tickets sold. All this stuff about loads of ticketless fans rushing into the area is complete nonsense. The report yesterday stated that there was no evidence of large numbers of ticketless fans. One of only two Police Officers who were left on duty in the crowd at the time and had his evidence altered said that fans who were let through the exit gate made their way to the tunnel in an orderly fashion.
I don't blame people for holding views about what happened that were wrong - after those in charge on the day lied and covered up the truth. The point is now the truth is out - there was a concerted smear campaign to blame the fans based on lies and distortions. Please can you just accept this - everybody studying the documents that came out yesterday now accepts the truth. The fans were not to blame.
No it was presented by the Old Bill as FACT. The senior copper was telling people that the scoursers smashed down the turn style, pissed on coppers and robbed the dead. Thats the Old Bill-----senoir coppers Old bill at plod level Old bill at Police Federation level
Guildford 4 Birmingham 6 Stephen Lawerance West Midlands Police Force Met Police Blair Peach Section 60 orders re terrorists applied to football fans
Best in the World your taking the PISS
when your car gets nicked or your hse burgled see what response you get----far to busy doing stuff on Tv like " im a fat twat in a uniform driving a fast car"
no hiding place for the bastards that for 23 years covered this up and that includes their union who also took part in this cover up.
Agree with your list and sentiments. I would also add to your list: successive governments and Home Secretaries.
I should add that there was a different culture around football and crowd control generally in those days.
I used to go regularly to Trafalgar Square in the late 80's for New Years Eve. Each year the crush got worse and worse. In 1990, I got stuck in the square, people fell over and were crushed. Fortunately although there were injuries none were fatal. I decided to give it a miss. The following year people were crushed to death.
The authorities acted too late and now the square is completely closed on New Years Eve. They were focussed on control of crowds not crowd safety. Hillsborough was the worst case of that.
This was a disaster waiting to happen. Add to the mix a very inexperienced Police Commander, the failure to organise the crowd in way they had in the past, the ludicrously high capacity (nearly double what it should have been) and you had a all the ingredients of a catastrophe. Fans doing what fans do, in high spirits before a up semi-final, like we would have been doing, were massively let down. Then to blame them and spread lies and distortions is absolutely despicable. I hope they throw the book at those who did that.
yes lets slag the Sun off not the Old Bill who fed them and the rest ofthe media the story or faked statements or lied under oath.It was the TV media who stopped showing the Obill battening the poor f++kers trying to get out ofthe crash--not because it was a horrific seen but under pressure from the Obill who knew then (as we all do now) what a total CRIMINAL f++K up they had made of it all. Cameron said in the HoC statement " after the truth comes justice"-------------no it wont unless lots of very senior coppers get banged up for CONSPIRACY you know the one they like to throw at football hooolies.
Summary removal of a few gold plated pensions for gross misconduct or similar would be effective too.
I' m talking Senior Police and Health Trust management (let's not forget 41 of the 96 might have been saved according to the report) here rather than the rank and file who were simply following the orders of their so-called betters.
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
To use the modern terminology kettling in simple terms.
The idea that the Leppings Lane Terrace was ever set at 10,000 is completely nuts.
The total figure of ~10100 includes 2900 in the North West Corner (to your left from the away end were we sit), the capacity of the terrace behind the goal was 7200 (this in turn was broken down into 3 sections).
Although I had always believed the police were mainly to blame ,I too had believed until yesterday that there had been lots of ticket less fans and that possibly some minor inappropriate behaviour on the part of a few Liverpool fans which had been exaggerated and distorted to a major extent rather than specific lies from the authorities .
The fact that the police changed so many statements and the only so called reliable source was a right wing Tory MP with an anti football supporter and pro police agenda ,I now accept that there was no culpability at all from the fans and the likes of Alan Davies and Boris Johnson should as public figures apologise for their previous statements .
Let's also not forget that SYP would have been active in the Miners Strike.I do not think it is a coincidence that Hillsborough happened a couple of years after the Wapping dispute where the Met aided Murdoch in seeing off the Print Unions .Therefore it could be that the Sun would have naturally favoured the SYP's narrative over the fans .
Andrew Neil a Murdoch editor at that time in his evidence to Leveson identified Wapping as the one time that the dirty digger thanked Thatcher for her assistance because she guaranteed a Police presence at the Sun's new HQ .Thatcher apparently also vetoed Hurd welcoming the Taylor reports criticism of the Police .
SHG tells his story of Arsenal V Liverpool which I can believe .Particularly because after Heysel Liverpool fans did not have a good reputation . This is also why I believe the stories gained credibility but as others have said I now accept they are a complete red herring in this case .
Listen to you lot! Gotta say congratulations to all those who got it bang on from the start you must be made up! A big WELL DONE and gold stars to all of you!!
To the rest who thought anything different over the years, you are a nasty bunch of ignorant c**ts!
I've seen a handful of documentaries and came up with the view that it was mostly down to fans turning up without tickets, I now know I was wrong and I've already apologised for this yesterday in this thread. You won't find anyone more distrusting of the ob than me and I don't think I've ever read an article in the papers about what happened that day, in fact I don't think I've bought a UK newspaper for over 10 years because of the bollocks they print; my (incorrect) views on this tragedy were made up from watching a few documentaries....
RIP
I don't think it is a right or wrong competition - a lot of football fans have had a good idea of the truth - or at least much of the truth- for a long time and were voicing those views strongly before yesterday. There were documentaries and a lot of information and accounts in the public domain. Sometimes you have to make a choice who you believe I suppose. However, some of those who were proved wrong yesterday still don't accept that no blame can be attributed to the Liverpool fans and they are the ignorant so and sos.
This isn't about us but justice for the families and they still have battles with the establishment to win. But the admission of blame at last gives them the weapons to acheive a just outcome. We should all unite and wish them every success. When you see the first 'SIR' topple, you will know they are getting there.
Listen to you lot! Gotta say congratulations to all those who got it bang on from the start you must be made up! A big WELL DONE and gold stars to all of you!!
To the rest who thought anything different over the years, you are a nasty bunch of ignorant c**ts!
I've seen a handful of documentaries and came up with the view that it was mostly down to fans turning up without tickets, I now know I was wrong and I've already apologised for this yesterday in this thread. You won't find anyone more distrusting of the ob than me and I don't think I've ever read an article in the papers about what happened that day, in fact I don't think I've bought a UK newspaper for over 10 years because of the bollocks they print; my (incorrect) views on this tragedy were made up from watching a few documentaries....
RIP
I don't think it is a right or wrong competition -
That was kind of the point I was trying to make....
"Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident."
There is now a new issue though. The incompetence, or bad planning, or both, of the SYP that started the chain of events that caused the tragedy is nothing compared to the changing of Policemen's statements after the effect. I still believe that there was no deliberate intention for anything like this to happen, and there are a number of factors that caused what happened. Clearly there were way too many fans there and this is partly to do with the obscene capacity of the terrace and partly due to the poor 'herding' of fans to manage the bottlenecks from arriving in Sheffield to getting into the ground. I suspect that the worst the Police were guilty of was mismanagement. I know this doesn't make it alright, but it was almost certainly not premeditated.
However, the same can't be said of the extensive lengths that those in charge must have gone to when trying to cover up the truth. This is what I think should be used to root out those responsible. I don't know what the families of the 96 really want when they ask for justice but either way the public deserve to be shown that the Police cover up comes at such a price for those involved that it will deter any similar behaviour in the future.
To be fair- Boris didn't actually say that but was the editor who allowed it to be published from what I understand - which is still not very responsible but he shouldn't be accused of writing it when he didn't. He was an MP at the time and an angry Michael Howard sent him to Liverpool to apologise - rightly so.
However, I think there is a difference from being made to apologise and doing it off your own back. When Boris said 'I apologised then and I apologise now'- it lacked a certain sincerity. I'd rather him just apologise now.
I think there is a danger to look at the Mayor and the Sun and lose focus on the people who need to be brought to justice though. This shouldn't be a political thing and it is right that Ed Milliband apologised on behalf of the Labour party - even though they instigated this enquiry and another in the ate 90s (which found there was insufficient new information) they could have done a lot more and it is write they acknowledge that.
There is now a new issue though. The incompetence, or bad planning, or both, of the SYP that started the chain of events that caused the tragedy is nothing compared to the changing of Policemen's statements after the effect. I still believe that there was no deliberate intention for anything like this to happen, and there are a number of factors that caused what happened. Clearly there were way too many fans there and this is partly to do with the obscene capacity of the terrace and partly due to the poor 'herding' of fans to manage the bottlenecks from arriving in Sheffield to getting into the ground. I suspect that the worst the Police were guilty of was mismanagement. I know this doesn't make it alright, but it was almost certainly not premeditated.
However, the same can't be said of the extensive lengths that those in charge must have gone to when trying to cover up the truth. This is what I think should be used to root out those responsible. I don't know what the families of the 96 really want when they ask for justice but either way the public deserve to be shown that the Police cover up comes at such a price for those involved that it will deter any similar behaviour in the future.
Yes the cover up and smear campaign is what really sticks in the craw as that was, by definition, cynically calculated.
That can only have come from on high hence my earlier comment about pensions.
I'm very glad for the families that the truth has come out about that day. Anyone who changed statements must be held to account for what they did.
Whatever caused there to be too many fans in the stand, they would have been alive today had there not been any fences to keep them off the pitch. All those who invaded pitches in the 70's and 80's must therefore share some of the blame. Had it not been necessary to have fences to keep fans off the pitch, the fans at the front at Hillsborough would have had an escape route from the crush.
The only good thing that came out of the Hillsborough tragedy is that fences were removed and fans invaded pitches far less. The memory of Hillsborough seemed to have changed fan behaviour for the better. That is why I am saddened to see so many people these days with the view that invading the pitch is acceptable.
I think th ereport alludes to the fact that many police officers were pressured to change statements and some had changes made they were not aware of. The SYP had the best legal minds on the case so it isn't necessarily those that changed the statements, but those who orchestrated the changes.
You might find my next comment a bit odd - unless like me you now live abroad. When I listened to David Cameron making his announcement yesterday, I was left in no doubt that he meant every word of it. Amidst all my outrage over the cover-up, the length of time its taken to get to the bottom of it, and the media coverage of it at the time, I still felt some sense of pride. For all that it took a disgracefully long time, Britain is still a country where, if you push hard you will eventually get at the facts, people will support you,; and finally there will be processes which politicians can't interfere with, which will get to the bottom of it. And when they do, politicians will accept the facts, knowing they will be held to account. There are a lot of things wrong with our police, our justice system and our political system. However all three are held in high regard by people in countries like the Czech Republic, a country you might think of as civilised and European. They wish their country had institutions of such quality.
And the benefit of that can be seen in Kings Hill Addick's gracious confession that, faced with the overwhelming evidence of yesterday's report, he has changed his mind and now wants to concentrate on how the hell that happened and how we stop it happening again.
23 years is way too long for the families, but finally they have the truth, and justice is a lot closer. It's still a good country, full of good people.
Of course it is easier to be genuine if you are not culpable and have nothing to hide- and Cameron certainly bears no personal guilt. I don't think this sorry episode is the best example to highlight the values of this country and it doesn't feel to me like something we should be boasting about. Yes there may be countries that are worse than us, but we deserve what we get if we make this into a positive. I suppose the Italians should be proud of Mussolini because he wasn't as bad as Hitler!
The thing I just don't get is how the same ground had held lots of sell out matches there in the preceeding years yet this was the first time this problem had occurred on this scale.
Think it's been mentioned that the year before police had checkpoints before leppings lan where they were turning away ticketless fans. Didn't have it in 89.
But that is an irrelevance - not many (or none) have come out and said they were part of the 2 or 3,000 that came through the gate and didn't have a ticket. They all must have had tickets.
Ticketless fans were common. They're a red herring in this disaster.
I generally keep away from Hillsborough discussions but this excuse always really annoys me in relation to anything.
Yes ticketless fans were common, but that does not exclusde them from having a role. Let me put it another way. If a man drink drives 99 times without an accident but on the 100th occasion a small child chases a ball out in the road and is hit and killed, who is to blame. The child probably shouldn't have been running into the road after the ball but it happens and normally drivers are aware enough to stop. The driver who was drunk is to blame. The fact that he has driven driunk many many times without a problem does not mean drink was not a factor and does not mean the blame should go to the child.
Not so easy when the villian is someone who is easy to dislike and the victim is someone no-one wants to blame.
Comments
There were problems at previous games but the lack of organisation by the police on that fateful day meant that not only was the area already almost twice as over-crowded as was subsequently deemed safe, but the lack of control mean't that the vast majority went into the two central pens compounding the problem. A crash barrier then collapsed with the crush turning a disaster into a catastrophe.
In short it was a disaster waiting to happen, even if they had managed the flow better and filled all the pens evenly, as the capacity was far too high for the area. There had been problems at previous games and nothing was done about it - see the Wolves/Spurs clip.
I don't blame people for holding views about what happened that were wrong - after those in charge on the day lied and covered up the truth. The point is now the truth is out - there was a concerted smear campaign to blame the fans based on lies and distortions. Please can you just accept this - everybody studying the documents that came out yesterday now accepts the truth. The fans were not to blame.
I used to go regularly to Trafalgar Square in the late 80's for New Years Eve. Each year the crush got worse and worse. In 1990, I got stuck in the square, people fell over and were crushed. Fortunately although there were injuries none were fatal. I decided to give it a miss. The following year people were crushed to death.
The authorities acted too late and now the square is completely closed on New Years Eve. They were focussed on control of crowds not crowd safety. Hillsborough was the worst case of that.
This was a disaster waiting to happen. Add to the mix a very inexperienced Police Commander, the failure to organise the crowd in way they had in the past, the ludicrously high capacity (nearly double what it should have been) and you had a all the ingredients of a catastrophe. Fans doing what fans do, in high spirits before a up semi-final, like we would have been doing, were massively let down. Then to blame them and spread lies and distortions is absolutely despicable. I hope they throw the book at those who did that.
I' m talking Senior Police and Health Trust management (let's not forget 41 of the 96 might have been saved according to the report) here rather than the rank and file who were simply following the orders of their so-called betters.
All into that middle pen.
The fact that the police changed so many statements and the only so called reliable source was a right wing Tory MP with an anti football supporter and pro police agenda ,I now accept that there was no culpability at all from the fans and the likes of Alan Davies and Boris Johnson should as public figures apologise for their previous statements .
Let's also not forget that SYP would have been active in the Miners Strike.I do not think it is a coincidence that Hillsborough happened a couple of years after the Wapping dispute where the Met aided Murdoch in seeing off the Print Unions .Therefore it could be that the Sun would have naturally favoured the SYP's narrative over the fans .
Andrew Neil a Murdoch editor at that time in his evidence to Leveson identified Wapping as the one time that the dirty digger thanked Thatcher for her assistance because she guaranteed a Police presence at the Sun's new HQ .Thatcher apparently also vetoed Hurd welcoming the Taylor reports criticism of the Police .
SHG tells his story of Arsenal V Liverpool which I can believe .Particularly because after Heysel Liverpool fans did not have a good reputation . This is also why I believe the stories gained credibility but as others have said I now accept they are a complete red herring in this case .
This isn't about us but justice for the families and they still have battles with the establishment to win. But the admission of blame at last gives them the weapons to acheive a just outcome. We should all unite and wish them every success. When you see the first 'SIR' topple, you will know they are getting there.
"Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident."
http://www.igreens.org.uk/boris_johnson_on_bigley.htm
Disgusting comment.
However, the same can't be said of the extensive lengths that those in charge must have gone to when trying to cover up the truth. This is what I think should be used to root out those responsible. I don't know what the families of the 96 really want when they ask for justice but either way the public deserve to be shown that the Police cover up comes at such a price for those involved that it will deter any similar behaviour in the future.
However, I think there is a difference from being made to apologise and doing it off your own back. When Boris said 'I apologised then and I apologise now'- it lacked a certain sincerity. I'd rather him just apologise now.
I think there is a danger to look at the Mayor and the Sun and lose focus on the people who need to be brought to justice though. This shouldn't be a political thing and it is right that Ed Milliband apologised on behalf of the Labour party - even though they instigated this enquiry and another in the ate 90s (which found there was insufficient new information) they could have done a lot more and it is write they acknowledge that.
That can only have come from on high hence my earlier comment about pensions.
Whatever caused there to be too many fans in the stand, they would have been alive today had there not been any fences to keep them off the pitch. All those who invaded pitches in the 70's and 80's must therefore share some of the blame. Had it not been necessary to have fences to keep fans off the pitch, the fans at the front at Hillsborough would have had an escape route from the crush.
The only good thing that came out of the Hillsborough tragedy is that fences were removed and fans invaded pitches far less. The memory of Hillsborough seemed to have changed fan behaviour for the better. That is why I am saddened to see so many people these days with the view that invading the pitch is acceptable.
When I listened to David Cameron making his announcement yesterday, I was left in no doubt that he meant every word of it. Amidst all my outrage over the cover-up, the length of time its taken to get to the bottom of it, and the media coverage of it at the time, I still felt some sense of pride. For all that it took a disgracefully long time, Britain is still a country where, if you push hard you will eventually get at the facts, people will support you,; and finally there will be processes which politicians can't interfere with, which will get to the bottom of it. And when they do, politicians will accept the facts, knowing they will be held to account. There are a lot of things wrong with our police, our justice system and our political system. However all three are held in high regard by people in countries like the Czech Republic, a country you might think of as civilised and European. They wish their country had institutions of such quality.
And the benefit of that can be seen in Kings Hill Addick's gracious confession that, faced with the overwhelming evidence of yesterday's report, he has changed his mind and now wants to concentrate on how the hell that happened and how we stop it happening again.
23 years is way too long for the families, but finally they have the truth, and justice is a lot closer. It's still a good country, full of good people.
Yes ticketless fans were common, but that does not exclusde them from having a role.
Let me put it another way.
If a man drink drives 99 times without an accident but on the 100th occasion a small child chases a ball out in the road and is hit and killed, who is to blame. The child probably shouldn't have been running into the road after the ball but it happens and normally drivers are aware enough to stop. The driver who was drunk is to blame. The fact that he has driven driunk many many times without a problem does not mean drink was not a factor and does not mean the blame should go to the child.
Not so easy when the villian is someone who is easy to dislike and the victim is someone no-one wants to blame.