Agree with Boom, SYP made mistakes in being under prepared and the cover up after the event, but it cannot be balmed on them that thousands turned up without a ticket and saw an opportunity to get into the stadium thus causing the horrible event.
Yep, this was the only time tens of thousands turned up without a ticket, hence the only major disaster to happen.
Some people really should look at the Taylor report before commenting. Ticket less fans was deemed a factor but not a significant one. It wouldn't have happened if there were no pen structures.
I remember as a 13 year old boy getting caught in a crush at Charlton Sation after we beat Spurs 4-1. It was terrifying as the force was immense and you couldn't do anything -the volume of people collectively was much too powerful. I hate to think what might have happened had the doors not been opened to let us onto the platform. It is difficult to imagine just how much force/power a crowd of people have. I honestly thought that this was it.
I think those at the back of the crush have little insight as to what it is like for those at the front and the cause was the desire to catch a train that was on the platform - you can't blame them - it has to be the responsibility of those managing the crowd to cover the threat. At Hillsborough, the motivation was to see a semi final which was reasonable enough - most of us would have done the same if we had no idea on what effect we were having - there were just too many people in a confined area through the fault of the police chief- a simple thing could have been done like delaying the kick off - which would have prevented the urgency to get in. Having said all that, the decision had to be made under pressure and there was a threat of death which was a reason for the decision to be made.
It was the wrong decision and as a result men, women and children lost their lives. The police chief wans't a murderer, but showed a level of incompetence that required some punishment - demotion for instance. If you are in such a responsible position, you have to be able to deal with these situations and not panic. But what happened afterwards was a disgrace - rather than take the blame - the police and the establishment tried to balme the fans and lies were told. That is why this is still important as even now - people are saying - well the fans were a little to blame. That disrespects the dead IMO.
Who was to blame? - Sheff Wednesday for having an unsafe ground and the Police Chief for panicking and making a stupid and reckless decision. Should we forget about it - no - we should try to learn from it to ensure it never happens again.
I'm with Boom on this one, yes the police aren't without blame, but scousers will blame anyone but themselves...how is it the police's fault they all decided to turn up ticketless and pissed ?
The programme outlined that the person who was supposed to be in charge was inexperienced to deal with the kind of crowd control required for a semi final of football. It was also made clear that fans at the semi final the season before had been dealt with, and controlled, to a level where there were no problems and thus meant that there was a feeling that everything should be fine this time around.
There were obviously many factors for the disaster but there is no doubt the action and response from those in charge of the police was poor. The cover ups after the disaster to me spoke volumes that they wanted to divert the blame which inevitably was going to come their way.
Just watched the documentary on ITVplayer. The most telling point for me was that the previous year, which I hadn't realized until now, Liverpool played Forest, at Hillsborough in a FAC semi final and there was not a problem. The difference being that the police constable at the time had set up various checkpoints turning ticketless fans back before they got close to the ground. In '89 the did not have the same process.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
That's all the truth you're ever going to get I think.
As for an apology, they simply don't happen any more. Even when your bank seriously screws up, they credit your account, but they'll never say sorry. Saying sorry is admitting fault and opens you up to lawsuits, so Sheffield Weds and SYP will never apologise as it would be the same as admitting criminal liability for those deaths.
I fear the campaign will never end until a suitable scapegoat is found. I guess it's only human nature, to want one target of your grieve, to have a simple "it was this guys fault", but live isn't that simple. As stated above, in various documentaries and official reports, there were many contributing factors.
And like it or not, fans turning up without tickets, and pushing their way in are at fault. Obviously nobody ever means to cause harm, but not considering the possible consequences of your actions is never an excuse if/when the worst happens. Consider this, you are at the back of a crowd, and pushing the big lump in front of you, where does that force go? Would you push as hard if it was a small child or somebody frail? Well those people will be in the crowd somewhere, and all that force is going to get passed onto to those vulnerable people. Relying on someone else to mitigate the results of your own poor decisions is never ever a good idea. So whilst the police should have done better, they wouldn't have needed to if those without tickets hadn't been there, and excuses like "it happened all the time", "loads of people do it", "there was never a problem before", seem particularly weak in the face of 96 entirely avoidable deaths.
Just watched the documentary on ITVplayer. The most telling point for me was that the previous year, which I hadn't realized until now, Liverpool played Forest, at Hillsborough in a FAC semi final and there was not a problem. The difference being that the police constable at the time had set up various checkpoints turning ticketless fans back before they got close to the ground. In '89 the did not have the same process.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
RIP the 96.
They're hardly blameless, to pin this all on the SYP is ridiculous.
It was tragic accident no one person went to the game or organised and intended to cause the death of 96 people police, fans and authorities included. Sometimes all we can do to honour the dead is to learn from our collective mistakes.
Point 1 - there was an extremely large amount of ticketless fans that led to a crush outside the ground. Point 2 - SYP opened the gate in order to alleviate said crush. Point 3 - these first two points led to the crush within the ground.
In conclusion neither party is blameless and both most bear responsibility and own up to the fact that they partly caused these deaths.
Has it ever been proved how many ticketless fans were outside/inside etc??
Or are they just claims/assumptions?
You telling me that massive amount of fans that surged in when the gates were opened had tickets? Trust me I know plenty of Liverpool fans that still turn up ticketless to this day .
I'm with Boom on this one, yes the police aren't without blame, but scousers will blame anyone but themselves...how is it the police's fault they all decided to turn up ticketless and pissed ?
What's it matter if they had a drink? Our away end if often full of pissed people. Football fans were 'scum' back then and accusations like that with no evidence were always gona be thrown at the fans to attempt to lay the blame at their feet.
Never went robbing throughout europe did they? Never turned up at matches without tickets did they? It was all Chelsea/Charlton/Millwall/West Ham at Heysel wasn't it?
It wasn't caused by overcrowding in the away end but overcrowding within one pen. If there were no ticketless fans the disaster still could have happened.
is this the same club whose fans were involved in the deaths of 39 juventus fans and then had the front to do a friendship mosaic in the kop the next time they played forgive and forget
is this the same club whose fans were involved in the deaths of 39 juventus fans and then had the front to do a friendship mosaic in the kop the next time they played forgive and forget
Yeah the ones that when they played Juventus for the first time since the wall pushing incident got all annoyed when the Juvé fans didn't accept their apology yet despite the sun apologising countless times they still won't buy it up there
The people that are blaming the police decision to open the gate are wrong in my opinion, people would've died outside the ground had they not been opened and we will possibly still be standing in cages at football matches.
Never went robbing throughout europe did they? Never turned up at matches without tickets did they? It was all Chelsea/Charlton/Millwall/West Ham at Heysel wasn't it?
Come on Buckshee, some people might spout that shite, but officially people were punished for Heysel.
And if we are all honest both of them disasters were waiting to happen and both could of happened to any number of clubs at the time.
I personnally know Liverpool fans that went to the champs league final without tickets and they were far from being alone in that.
I'm not saying they were totally to blame for Hillsborough , of course not buy the fact that they continue to not accept any blame at all is an absolute joke
I know a family of four Liverpool fans who went with their tickets to see the final in Athens against Milan. The whole trip cost him over £3,500.
He never even got passed the first Police Cordon - even with his tickets - as all the seats in the Liverpool end were full. He was in a group of over 100 Liverpool fans in the same position.
You don't want to know what he thinks of those loveable Scouse rogues who managed to get into the ground ticketless.
The Liverpool fans arriving late to the semi final would in the majority only want to be right in the middle behind the goal. Those in the tunnel who pushed ever harder to try to get in can blame the police forever but they must surely take some blame. A scouse chancer pushed my eldery dad out of the way at West Stand Valley turnstiles when we played them last game in 2004(?) and got away with it. Nice.
Comments
Some people really should look at the Taylor report before commenting. Ticket less fans was deemed a factor but not a significant one. It wouldn't have happened if there were no pen structures.
I think those at the back of the crush have little insight as to what it is like for those at the front and the cause was the desire to catch a train that was on the platform - you can't blame them - it has to be the responsibility of those managing the crowd to cover the threat. At Hillsborough, the motivation was to see a semi final which was reasonable enough - most of us would have done the same if we had no idea on what effect we were having - there were just too many people in a confined area through the fault of the police chief- a simple thing could have been done like delaying the kick off - which would have prevented the urgency to get in. Having said all that, the decision had to be made under pressure and there was a threat of death which was a reason for the decision to be made.
It was the wrong decision and as a result men, women and children lost their lives. The police chief wans't a murderer, but showed a level of incompetence that required some punishment - demotion for instance. If you are in such a responsible position, you have to be able to deal with these situations and not panic. But what happened afterwards was a disgrace - rather than take the blame - the police and the establishment tried to balme the fans and lies were told. That is why this is still important as even now - people are saying - well the fans were a little to blame. That disrespects the dead IMO.
Who was to blame? - Sheff Wednesday for having an unsafe ground and the Police Chief for panicking and making a stupid and reckless decision. Should we forget about it - no - we should try to learn from it to ensure it never happens again.
The programme outlined that the person who was supposed to be in charge was inexperienced to deal with the kind of crowd control required for a semi final of football. It was also made clear that fans at the semi final the season before had been dealt with, and controlled, to a level where there were no problems and thus meant that there was a feeling that everything should be fine this time around.
There were obviously many factors for the disaster but there is no doubt the action and response from those in charge of the police was poor. The cover ups after the disaster to me spoke volumes that they wanted to divert the blame which inevitably was going to come their way.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
RIP the 96.
As for an apology, they simply don't happen any more. Even when your bank seriously screws up, they credit your account, but they'll never say sorry. Saying sorry is admitting fault and opens you up to lawsuits, so Sheffield Weds and SYP will never apologise as it would be the same as admitting criminal liability for those deaths.
I fear the campaign will never end until a suitable scapegoat is found. I guess it's only human nature, to want one target of your grieve, to have a simple "it was this guys fault", but live isn't that simple. As stated above, in various documentaries and official reports, there were many contributing factors.
And like it or not, fans turning up without tickets, and pushing their way in are at fault. Obviously nobody ever means to cause harm, but not considering the possible consequences of your actions is never an excuse if/when the worst happens. Consider this, you are at the back of a crowd, and pushing the big lump in front of you, where does that force go? Would you push as hard if it was a small child or somebody frail? Well those people will be in the crowd somewhere, and all that force is going to get passed onto to those vulnerable people. Relying on someone else to mitigate the results of your own poor decisions is never ever a good idea. So whilst the police should have done better, they wouldn't have needed to if those without tickets hadn't been there, and excuses like "it happened all the time", "loads of people do it", "there was never a problem before", seem particularly weak in the face of 96 entirely avoidable deaths.
Point 2 - SYP opened the gate in order to alleviate said crush.
Point 3 - these first two points led to the crush within the ground.
In conclusion neither party is blameless and both most bear responsibility and own up to the fact that they partly caused these deaths.
Or are they just claims/assumptions?
Football fans were 'scum' back then and accusations like that with no evidence were always gona be thrown at the fans to attempt to lay the blame at their feet.
Never went robbing throughout europe did they? Never turned up at matches without tickets did they? It was all Chelsea/Charlton/Millwall/West Ham at Heysel wasn't it?
forgive and forget
And if we are all honest both of them disasters were waiting to happen and both could of happened to any number of clubs at the time.
I'm not saying they were totally to blame for Hillsborough , of course not buy the fact that they continue to not accept any blame at all is an absolute joke
He never even got passed the first Police Cordon - even with his tickets - as all the seats in the Liverpool end were full. He was in a group of over 100 Liverpool fans in the same position.
You don't want to know what he thinks of those loveable Scouse rogues who managed to get into the ground ticketless.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-457540/UEFA-slam-Liverpool-fans-insist-Milan-supporters-gave-problems.html