Would be grateful if these experts who know all about the Liverpool fans who went without tickets could give me an idea of numbers. Is it a lot or loads? As has been pointed out, there was bags of room in the stand, the tragedy happened because too many were concentrated in an enclosed middle section.
Just went to, or charged the gates and got in? I've gone ticketless to many games. There is a big difference between travelling without one and forcing your way in without one.
Would be grateful if these experts who know all about the Liverpool fans who went without tickets could give me an idea of numbers. Is it a lot or loads? As has been pointed out, there was bags of room in the stand, the tragedy happened because too many were concentrated in an enclosed middle section.
Would be grateful if these experts who know all about the Liverpool fans who went without tickets could give me an idea of numbers. Is it a lot or loads? As has been pointed out, there was bags of room in the stand, the tragedy happened because too many were concentrated in an enclosed middle section.
No one deserves to die, because they went to see a football match. The police, have to be made accountable for there inaction , and dithering. Lives could have been saved. Yes, some of the Liverpool supporters may have to share some of the blame. But I hope that the people asking for answers, get some closure on this. The coroner's view about not taking evidence after 3.15 has been scandelous....... 'a failure of police control' and those police officers need to be brought to task, among others......
I think there is blame to be apportioned all round, including the fans. However we have had several enquiries and I can't see how further debates every five or ten years is going to help anyone. It is never going to be the case that we can say it is the fault of Mr XYZ. It was a tragic accident. Yes, it could have been avoided but that is the case for all accidents. Easy for me to say but I think it is time to move on.
Not sure how you can move on without closure, as the MP just claimed on BBC tv...... Closure, includes a full disclosure 'as possible', not a partial cover up, with a failure of police control....... Still, I await the report details. The truth may be difficult for all concerned, it will not bring the dead back I agree, but what is the point of any trial,investigation if there is not accountability.....
Surely the only good thing to come out of that tragic day is the fact that it hasn't happened again since, I feel for the families and friends but if info was covered up, then you'd need to know why?
I wonder, seeing a few people affected by this tragedy on TV this morning, when they will be satisfied that the truth has been told? Are they waiting for what they believe to be the truth to be validated, or do they really want the truth if it turns out not the way they think it should?
I think people are missing the police cover up which started when they claimed the fans knocked down the gate which was latter proven to be wrong. The facts need to be released and hopefully after today the families which have closure and people will be held accounted for what happened.
I wonder, seeing a few people affected by this tragedy on TV this morning, when they will be satisfied that the truth has been told? Are they waiting for what they believe to be the truth to be validated, or do they really want the truth if it turns out not the way they think it should?
If I were the mother of a child who died at Hillsborough, and I believe that the life of my child could and should have been saved, I imagine I would feel pretty devastated. If, added to that tragedy, the police had been made to alter their statements to maintain the cover up and get the police off the hook, and the police, as a matter of policy, deliberately blamed the fans to cover up their own failings, I would feel very angry indeed. That's not to mention the careless and ill-informed adding their tuppence worth about how my child was to blame for his/her own death. I think that my sense of injustice and anger would rage on until the truth was finally told. I hope that the families after waiting 23 years may finally get to feel that the truth has been told.
Just watched the documentary on ITVplayer. The most telling point for me was that the previous year, which I hadn't realized until now, Liverpool played Forest, at Hillsborough in a FAC semi final and there was not a problem. The difference being that the police constable at the time had set up various checkpoints turning ticketless fans back before they got close to the ground. In '89 the did not have the same process.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
RIP the 96.
This , The Police should have put in a process to send back ticketless fans .
The Police made a mistake not checking tickets and then opening the gate, so some blame must be apportioned to them.
Some Liverpool fans turned up drunk and ticketless and rushed the tunnel (we will never know how many) so some blame must be apportioned to them.
The majority of Liverpool fans were not drunk and had tickets and didn't rush the tunnel, no blame for them then.
The other 'news' (Sun misreporting, stealing from the dead, pissing on the old bill etc) as revolting as it was, is irrelevant if we need to get to the facts of what happened.
The one thing that plays on my mind is the refusal of the emergency services to be allowed access to the Pitch, I think there was only 2 ambulances allowed, when there were 30 (?) outside the ground. I wonder if the 96 deaths would have been considerably less if they had been given access?
Finally I think lambasting Liverpool fans (Scousers) in some of the posts that I have read is totally wrong, I remember this day very well, and seeing the amount of Liverpool using the advertising hoardings to 'stretcher' the wounded and dying to the makeshift first aid area tells me that the vast majority are decent people. Those images have and will stay with me for a long time.
As a point of interest. In 1988 I attended the Arsenal v Liverpool match at Highbury with two friends both Liverpool fans and was therefore located with the Liverpool fans on the large open terrace behind the goal. Arrived on the terrace at about 14:30 for a 15:00 KO. By the time the match started the terrace was ridiculously packed and impossible to move almost. Shoulder to shoulder, chest to back. It was scary and something not right. One of my friends, a woman was so intimidated she forced her way to a walkway and approached a policeman who I paraphrase said " there are thousands of ticketless fans that have bunked in and if we wanted we could be escorted out of the stadium. We remained and things got worse to the point that with the motion of the crowd you were swept off your feet and crushed as you were tossed around. A little after half time my lady friend insisted we left and we did. One of the most frightening experiences of my life. I estimate that there could easily have been double the number of fans for that space. Subsequently I heard from my Liverpool supporting friend that it was common practice for thousands of ticketless fans to storm / blag their way in at away matches.
Not suggesting anything by this but just telling you of my experience.
Whatever you believe of Liverpool fans 25 years ago, once the crushing had occured, the OB did absolutely nothing to aid the injured and dying. They prevented ambulances getting into the ground when there were 80 trained first aiders outside. Police in the control rooms could see there was no fighting and they ignored it.
Absolutely no excuse for that.
The cover up before the victims were even buried was just sick.
I've no idea what is driving the people who are searching for justice, but somehow it doesn't sit well with me. If thousands of fans had died outside the ground the polis would be getting slaughtered now for not opening the gates. The ham fisted cover up and numerous reports of inept policing and failure to allow medics to get to where they could help, doesn't really change that. I've never once heard any of the families calling out the behaviour of fans that lead to the gates being opened. This seems odd to me, if I had a loved one killed by a drunk driver I'd maybe be angry at the police for not prevening them, or insubstantial safety features in the vehicle, but not to the exclusion of blaming the drunk. I do wonder if it is a reluctance to blame their own sainted supporters or if it s perhaps a lack of opportunity to get compensation from individual fans. I feel bad for thinking it, but can't understand the focus of the rage.
It's insane to think how it used to be at football in the 80s, being kept in cages, with regular injuries, I remember being at a game that day and news starting to come through on transistor radios , it was quite unreal.
I think it's fair to say there would've been less deaths if the emergency services had access.
Is this right? It's just that I heard one of the victims' family members say this morning that everyone who lost their life died before 3.15, if that is the case, not sure that the medics could have possibly got through the crowd and done anything by then. I might have picked this up incorrectly.
I think it's fair to say there would've been less deaths if the emergency services had access.
Is this right? It's just that I heard one of the victims' family members say this morning that everyone who lost their life died before 3.15, if that is the case, not sure that the medics could have possibly got through the crowd and done anything by then. I might have picked this up incorrectly.
I think the documentary provided an example where this was not the case.
As a point of interest. In 1988 I attended the Arsenal v Liverpool match at Highbury with two friends both Liverpool fans and was therefore located with the Liverpool fans on the large open terrace behind the goal. Arrived on the terrace at about 14:30 for a 15:00 KO. By the time the match started the terrace was ridiculously packed and impossible to move almost. Shoulder to shoulder, chest to back. It was scary and something not right. One of my friends, a woman was so intimidated she forced her way to a walkway and approached a policeman who I paraphrase said " there are thousands of ticketless fans that have bunked in and if we wanted we could be escorted out of the stadium. We remained and things got worse to the point that with the motion of the crowd you were swept off your feet and crushed as you were tossed around. A little after half time my lady friend insisted we left and we did. One of the most frightening experiences of my life. I estimate that there could easily have been double the number of fans for that space. Subsequently I heard from my Liverpool supporting friend that it was common practice for thousands of ticketless fans to storm / blag their way in at away matches.
Not suggesting anything by this but just telling you of my experience.
Almost anywhere outside England, if drunken and aggressive fans were literally laying siege to the gates of a football ground, heavily tooled up riot police would steam in and indiscriminately crack a few heads, limbs and ribs to restore a little bit of order. Most football fans, especially those with no tickets and ready to attempt to enter the ground without paying, would know this and would probably not risk a baton bash or two. The Hillsborough dead were almost certainly all people who had paid for their tickets and were in the (to put it mildly) unfortunate position at the front of the terraces against walls or crash barriers. Their deaths were caused, police incompetence notwithstanding, by drunken oafs who intimidated the few police personnel on duty into opening the gates to give them free admission into the game, then rushing in drunken 'joy and oblivion' into a space that was far too small to accomodate them, thence crushing their 'fellow Liverpool supporters' at the front. Foolishly the police have covered up the fact that they were powerless to stop what was in fact a riot. Bereaved families deserve recompense, satisfaction and apologies (can words ever be enough?) from the police and authorities. Equally those families and friends deserve even greater satisfaction from hearing some of their own 'fellow fans' who were present that fateful day, admitting that their behaviour, however non intended, was the catalyst for the whole dire situation. The former is sure to happen. I doubt that the latter ever will.
When I used to work on the turnstiles you'd sometimes get people trying to bunk in. The two main methods were somebody trying to crush into the rotating turnstile as you're about to hit the button. The other more subtle method would be for one guy to be handing you his ticket, with his mate on hands and knees between his legs.
I don't think anybody ever got through my turnstile in that way, but I imagine it's a contributing factor to the newer turnstiles in the north and west stands being noticably narrower than the older turnstiles in the north lower, east and away end.
If the crowed were "controlled" it would've all gone off outside, it was a snap decision that ultimately ended in tragedy. It seems that some people won't be happy until the whole thing is blamed on the ob.
You don't see the Heysel disaster being brought up every other year by family or the Italian media until they are ALL satisfied it was HIS fault or THEIR fault, so I can't see the point of all this now with Hillsborough.
I wonder if those fans that never had tickets at Hillsborough that day ever think of what might have happened if they had just stayed in the boozer......?
There have been lots of statements about al those outside with no tickets but the ground wasn't full. There was a glut of people close to kick off that couldn't get into the ground for a big match. The will of the crowd would have been to get in so those at the back push forwards crushing those at the front. This was happening outside the ground and what led to the fateful decision to open the gates.
The solution was a simple one - which was to delay the kick off and assure that everybody with tickets would be in the ground before the game started. This is surely what would happen today, but maybe the reason it would happen today is because of lessons learned at Hillsborough.
With the numbers involved, it would be amazing if there were no drunks, idiots or hooligans in the Liverpool ranks. That doesn't mean it is right to blame all Liverpool fans or even the vast majority of them for what was negligence on the part of the Police and Stadium. Football fans are football fans and if you were herding a group of lions who broke away and killed people- you can't blame it on the lions if you hadn't taken the correct precautions to prevent it.
Prime minister on tv now, failures of services. The families were right...... false allegations by media, sun criticised, huge offense caused. Police reports were changed, 164 statements ammended. 160 reports withdrawn. Police tried to impune the dead supportes. Alcohol content NOT significant. South Yorkshire police deceitfull. Unjust and unchanged narrative. The coroner report also criticised. The 3.15 line, could have had reversable asphix........ The conclusions are harrowing. Attorney General been sent papers.. High court should decide to overturn coroners verdict. PM It was Wrong...... Wrong for the families to wait, Wrong for the police to do as they acted..... Taylor and coroner also wrong....... Weight of evidence PM makes an apology. A double injustice The false version of events, to blame the victims. The Liverpool fans were NOT the cause of the events.
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The police, have to be made accountable for there inaction , and dithering.
Lives could have been saved. Yes, some of the Liverpool supporters may have to share some of the blame.
But I hope that the people asking for answers, get some closure on this.
The coroner's view about not taking evidence after 3.15 has been scandelous....... 'a failure of police control'
and those police officers need to be brought to task, among others......
Closure, includes a full disclosure 'as possible', not a partial cover up, with a failure of police control.......
Still, I await the report details. The truth may be difficult for all concerned, it will not bring the dead back I agree, but what is the point of any trial,investigation if there is not accountability.....
The Police made a mistake not checking tickets and then opening the gate, so some blame must be apportioned to them.
Some Liverpool fans turned up drunk and ticketless and rushed the tunnel (we will never know how many) so some blame must be apportioned to them.
The majority of Liverpool fans were not drunk and had tickets and didn't rush the tunnel, no blame for them then.
The other 'news' (Sun misreporting, stealing from the dead, pissing on the old bill etc) as revolting as it was, is irrelevant if we need to get to the facts of what happened.
The one thing that plays on my mind is the refusal of the emergency services to be allowed access to the Pitch, I think there was only 2 ambulances allowed, when there were 30 (?) outside the ground. I wonder if the 96 deaths would have been considerably less if they had been given access?
Finally I think lambasting Liverpool fans (Scousers) in some of the posts that I have read is totally wrong, I remember this day very well, and seeing the amount of Liverpool using the advertising hoardings to 'stretcher' the wounded and dying to the makeshift first aid area tells me that the vast majority are decent people.
Those images have and will stay with me for a long time.
Not suggesting anything by this but just telling you of my experience.
Absolutely no excuse for that.
The cover up before the victims were even buried was just sick.
It's insane to think how it used to be at football in the 80s, being kept in cages, with regular injuries, I remember being at a game that day and news starting to come through on transistor radios , it was quite unreal.
The Hillsborough dead were almost certainly all people who had paid for their tickets and were in the (to put it mildly) unfortunate position at the front of the terraces against walls or crash barriers. Their deaths were caused, police incompetence notwithstanding, by drunken oafs who intimidated the few police personnel on duty into opening the gates to give them free admission into the game, then rushing in drunken 'joy and oblivion' into a space that was far too small to accomodate them, thence crushing their 'fellow Liverpool supporters' at the front. Foolishly the police have covered up the fact that they were powerless to stop what was in fact a riot.
Bereaved families deserve recompense, satisfaction and apologies (can words ever be enough?) from the police and authorities. Equally those families and friends deserve even greater satisfaction from hearing some of their own 'fellow fans' who were present that fateful day, admitting that their behaviour, however non intended, was the catalyst for the whole dire situation.
The former is sure to happen. I doubt that the latter ever will.
I don't think anybody ever got through my turnstile in that way, but I imagine it's a contributing factor to the newer turnstiles in the north and west stands being noticably narrower than the older turnstiles in the north lower, east and away end.
You don't see the Heysel disaster being brought up every other year by family or the Italian media until they are ALL satisfied it was HIS fault or THEIR fault, so I can't see the point of all this now with Hillsborough.
I wonder if those fans that never had tickets at Hillsborough that day ever think of what might have happened if they had just stayed in the boozer......?
RIP
The solution was a simple one - which was to delay the kick off and assure that everybody with tickets would be in the ground before the game started. This is surely what would happen today, but maybe the reason it would happen today is because of lessons learned at Hillsborough.
With the numbers involved, it would be amazing if there were no drunks, idiots or hooligans in the Liverpool ranks. That doesn't mean it is right to blame all Liverpool fans or even the vast majority of them for what was negligence on the part of the Police and Stadium. Football fans are football fans and if you were herding a group of lions who broke away and killed people- you can't blame it on the lions if you hadn't taken the correct precautions to prevent it.
The families were right...... false allegations by media, sun criticised, huge offense caused.
Police reports were changed, 164 statements ammended. 160 reports withdrawn. Police tried to impune the dead supportes. Alcohol content NOT significant. South Yorkshire police deceitfull.
Unjust and unchanged narrative. The coroner report also criticised.
The 3.15 line, could have had reversable asphix........
The conclusions are harrowing.
Attorney General been sent papers.. High court should decide to overturn coroners verdict.
PM It was Wrong......
Wrong for the families to wait, Wrong for the police to do as they acted.....
Taylor and coroner also wrong.......
Weight of evidence PM makes an apology.
A double injustice
The false version of events, to blame the victims. The Liverpool fans were NOT the cause of the events.