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Hillsborough The Search For Truth ITV1 10.35 Tonight (Monday)

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    So reading above the drunk Liverpool one has been put to bed along the other snipes put at the Liverpool fans.
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    BIG_ROB said:

    If the crowed were "controlled" it would've all gone off outside, it was a snap decision that ultimately ended in tragedy. It seems that some people won't be happy until the whole thing is blamed on the ob.

    You don't see the Heysel disaster being brought up every other year by family or the Italian media until they are ALL satisfied it was HIS fault or THEIR fault, so I can't see the point of all this now with Hillsborough.

    I wonder if those fans that never had tickets at Hillsborough that day ever think of what might have happened if they had just stayed in the boozer......?

    RIP

    Rob,

    Many Liverpool fans went to prison for Heysel. Therefore people were held accountable!!
    And we don't know what the Italian fans relatives etc have been doing in the meantime.

    The police have already been proven to lie/cover up. Yet people seem to believe these ticketless Liverpool fans (no one knows how many there were btw) were pissed and were all surging in because the police said so. Is there footage of this?

    It is possible for a crush to develop outside grounds when there are ticketless fans only. I was in one in Sofia last year. It people are not going through a gate quick enough a crush can easily build up through just the ticketless fans, believe it or not.

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    I hope that the families who have continued for 23 years to try and clear the names of the family members killed will now feel that the long burning sense of injustice has been lifted from them. They have been vindicated at last.
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    I hope what is coming out right now proves a lot of people on here wrong!!
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    BIG_ROB said:

    It seems that some people won't be happy until the whole thing is blamed on the ob.

    My God, "DRAIZE IN BIG ROB AGREEMENT SHOCKER"...

    This is exactly the case. The scousers simply refuse to except any proportion of blame for what happened at Hillsborough because they cannot face the cold hard fact that they themselves are partially responsible for the deaths of their own fellow supports.

    Their stance from the incident to this day is born from their own guilt, nothing more, nothing less. They claim to be so hurt and sympathetic towards the families that lost people that day but their continual denial of their obvious roles in the tragedy is actually an insult to their memory. They constantly bleat about a police cover up yet they have continually conducted their own type of cover up by trying to extricate their own involvement in the terrible events of that day. Disgraceful club, disgraceful supporters.

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    Fuck me Draizetrain.

    Do you not know what's going on in the House of Commons right now??
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    Fuck me Draizetrain.

    Do you not know what's going on in the House of Commons right now??

    A load of twats shouting hear hear?
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    I

    Fuck me Draizetrain.

    Do you not know what's going on in the House of Commons right now??

    A load of twats shouting hear hear?
    Other than that of course :) Surely what is being disclosed right now should put this to bed??
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    edited September 2012

    BIG_ROB said:

    It seems that some people won't be happy until the whole thing is blamed on the ob.

    My God, "DRAIZE IN BIG ROB AGREEMENT SHOCKER"...

    This is exactly the case. The scousers simply refuse to except any proportion of blame for what happened at Hillsborough because they cannot face the cold hard fact that they themselves are partially responsible for the deaths of their own fellow supports.

    Their stance from the incident to this day is born from their own guilt, nothing more, nothing less. They claim to be so hurt and sympathetic towards the families that lost people that day but their continual denial of their obvious roles in the tragedy is actually an insult to their memory. They constantly bleat about a police cover up yet they have continually conducted their own type of cover up by trying to extricate their own involvement in the terrible events of that day. Disgraceful club, disgraceful supporters.

    Utter shameful nonsense. The truth is now out and yet you post this at the same time perpetuating the lie that it was the fault of the fans.
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    So, the Police covered up their own mess and the Sun were a disgrace, it would be nice if we could say this was only the case 23 years ago.

    Have to give a lot of respect for the families that kept fighting to get this information released, the sad thing is this won' be he end, its probably going to be many years before any actual justice is delivered
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    In a statement to the House of Commons, David Cameron also said that the Hillsborough Independent Panel report revealed that Liverpool fans were not to blame for the disaster at the FA Cup semi final.

    He said: "Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not at fault for the disaster."

    The panel's findings also reveal that evidence provided to the original inquiry was significantly amended and that "authorities sought to give a completely unjust account of events."
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    If I left my front door open then I would be negligent if I got burgled but that would not make the burgler innocent.

    Refer back to my previous post about Liverpool away at Millwall during the same era.
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    In the light of today's disclosures and conclusions, anyone who attempts to blame Liverpool fans for what happened, is either stupid, malicious, ill-informed or, and quite possibly, a combination of all three.

    The victims have been cleared of any blame. The blame rests with the mismanagement of the crowd at the game, by the police. A police force who responded to the carnage by searching through their criminal record database and trying to find if there were any dead fans with previous convictions upon who blame could be falsely placed. From the very first moments, the police tried to subvert the truth, shifting blame from themselves, onto the innocent and the dead. 164 of their statements were either amended, buried or re-written in order to assist in the large-scale perverting of justice relating to the initial inquiry into the tragedy.

    It could have been any set of football supporters. To argue otherwise is to spread lies now discredited and disproved, in order to attempt to place the blame on those who lost their lives. To promote such an argument says more about you, than about anyone else. No doubt remains about where culpability rests. The only remaining issue is what should happen to those who lied, who distorted, who misled and deceived. Anyone half-witted enough to still promote those utterly discredited theories, should be quiet. If you can't be intelligent and humane, at least have the decency not to broadcast your ignorance.
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    PL54 - we all know that went on back then at a lot of clubs. It still goes on now - united are famed for it.

    We don't know how much it went on that day in 89 but I think its now been proved it had no effect on the disaster.
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    In the light of today's disclosures and conclusions, anyone who attempts to blame Liverpool fans for what happened, is either stupid, malicious, ill-informed or, and quite possibly, a combination of all three.

    The victims have been cleared of any blame. The blame rests with the mismanagement of the crowd at the game, by the police. A police force who responded to the carnage by searching through their criminal record database and trying to find if there were any dead fans with previous convictions upon who blame could be falsely placed. From the very first moments, the police tried to subvert the truth, shifting blame from themselves, onto the innocent and the dead. 164 of their statements were either amended, buried or re-written in order to assist in the large-scale perverting of justice relating to the initial inquiry into the tragedy.

    It could have been any set of football supporters. To argue otherwise is to spread lies now discredited and disproved, in order to attempt to place the blame on those who lost their lives. To promote such an argument says more about you, than about anyone else. No doubt remains about where culpability rests. The only remaining issue is what should happen to those who lied, who distorted, who misled and deceived. Anyone half-witted enough to still promote those utterly discredited theories, should be quiet. If you can't be intelligent and humane, at least have the decency not to broadcast your ignorance.

    This sums it things up brilliantly and far better than I could possibly have done.
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    What has happened today is that the establishment has admitted what many of us already knew. That is a good thing - that is the closure or at least the beginning of it. It was good to see the Prime Minister apologise and Ed Milliband too - both Conservatives and Labour should have done more to get to the truth sooner. To complete it, those that deserved to be punished must be punished. It shouldn't be a witch hunt but done with honesty and integrety.

    Who was responsible for the Police lies?
    Who was responsible for the criminal lack of a response that could have cost many lives?
    Those running Sheffield Wednesday at the time were aware of the risks - why did they not address them?

    The answer to these questions need names- not just the Police or Sheffield Wednesday in general. When we get those and they receive appropriate punishment, and the families are compensated, then there is some real form of closure

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    Kelvin Mackenzie has made himself 'unavailable for comment'

    Hopefully, forever.
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    I find some people's views on here a bit sick
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    THE FULL STATEMENT
    Today the Bishop of Liverpool, the Rt Reverend James Jones, is publishing the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

    The disaster at the Hillsborough football stadium on 15th April 1989 was one of the greatest peacetime tragedies of the last century.

    96 people died as a result of a crush in the Leppings Lane Terrace at the FA Cup Semi-Final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

    There was a public Inquiry at the time by Lord Justice Taylor which found - and I quote - that the main cause of the disaster was "a failure of police control".

    But the Inquiry didn't have access to all the documents that have since become available, it didn't properly examine the response of the emergency services, it was followed by a deeply controversial inquest, and by a media version of events that sought to blame the fans.

    As a result, the families have not heard the truth and have not found justice.

    That is why the previous government - and in particular - the Rt Hon Member for Leigh was right to set up this Panel.

    And it is why this government insisted that no stone should be left unturned and that all papers should be made available to the Bishop of Liverpool and his team.

    Mr Speaker, in total over 450,000 pages of evidence have been reviewed.

    It was right that the families should see the Report first.

    As a result the government has only had a very limited amount of time to study the evidence so far.

    But it is already very clear that many of the report's findings are deeply distressing.

    There are three areas in particular.

    The failure of the authorities to help protect people.

    The attempt to blame the fans.

    And the doubt cast on the original Coroner's Inquest.

    Let me take each in turn.

    "Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster."
    David Cameron Quotes of the week

    FINDINGS: FAILURE OF THE AUTHORITIES

    First, there is new evidence about how the authorities failed.

    There is a trail of new documents which show the extent to which the safety of the crowd at Hillsborough was "compromised at every level".

    The ground failed to meet minimum standards and the "deficiencies were well known".

    The turnstiles were inadequate.

    The ground capacity had been significantly over-calculated.

    The crush barriers failed to meet safety standards.

    There had been a crush at exactly the same match the year before.

    And today's report shows clearly that lessons had not been learnt.

    The report backs up again the key finding of the Taylor Report on police failure.

    But it goes further by revealing for the first time the shortcomings of the ambulance and emergency services response.

    The major incident plan was not fully implemented.

    Rescue attempts were held back by failures of leadership and co-ordination.

    And, significantly, new documents today show there was a delay from the emergency services when people were being crushed and killed.

    FINDINGS: ATTEMPT TO BLAME THE FANS

    Second, the families have long believed that some of the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust account of events that sought to blame the fans for what happened.

    Mr Speaker, the families were right.

    The evidence in today's report includes briefings to the media, and attempts by the Police to change the record of events.

    On the media. Several newspapers reported false allegations that fans were drunk and violent and stole from the dead.

    The Sun's report sensationalised these allegations under a banner headline "The Truth."

    This was clearly wrong and caused huge offence, distress and hurt.

    News International has co-operated with the Panel and, for the first time, today's report reveals that the source for these despicable untruths was a Sheffield news agency reporting conversations with South Yorkshire Police and Irvine Patnick, the then MP for Sheffield Hallam.

    The Report finds that this was part of police efforts - and I quote - "to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on - allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence."

    In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor's attention.

    Today's Report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended - and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation - including its lack of leadership.

    The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths.

    There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt - and I quote from the report - "to impugn the reputations of the deceased".

    The Coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children.

    The Panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an "exceptional" decision.

    The report states clearly that the attempt of the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and late arrival was "fundamentally flawed".

    And that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion".

    Mr Speaker, over all these years questions have been raised about the role of the government - including whether it did enough to uncover the truth.

    It is certainly true that some of the language in the government papers published today was insensitive.

    But having been through every document - and every government document including Cabinet Minutes will be published - the Panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth.

    At the time of the Taylor Report the then Prime Minister was briefed by her private secretary that the defensive and - I quote - "close to deceitful" behaviour of senior South Yorkshire officers was "depressingly familiar."

    And it is clear that the then government thought it right that the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire should resign.

    But as the Rt Hon Member for Leigh has rightly highlighted, governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans.

    FINDINGS: ORIGINAL CORONER'S INQUEST

    Third, and perhaps most significantly of all, the Bishop of Liverpool's report presents new evidence which casts significant doubt over the adequacy of the original Inquest.

    The Coroner - on the advice of pathologists - believed that victims suffered traumatic asphyxia leading to unconsciousness within seconds and death within a few minutes.

    As a result he asserted that beyond 3.15pm there were no actions that could have changed the fate of the victims and he limited the scope of the Inquest accordingly.

    But by analysing post mortem reports the Panel have found that 28 did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 had evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush.

    This means that individuals in those groups could have had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm in contrast to the findings of the Coroner and a subsequent Judicial Review.

    And the Panel states clearly that "it is highly likely that what happened to those individuals after 3.15pm was significant" in determining whether they died.

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    RESPONSE

    Mr Speaker, the conclusions of this report will be harrowing for many of the families affected.

    "The families have long believed that some of the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust account of events that sought to blame the fans for what happened. The families were right."
    David Cameron Quotes of the week

    Anyone who has lost a child knows the pain never leaves you. But to read a report years afterwards that says - and I quote, "a swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives", can only add to the pain

    It is for the Attorney General to decide whether to apply to the High Court to quash the original inquest and seek a new one.

    In this capacity he acts independently of government. And he will need to examine the evidence himself.

    But it is clear to me that the new evidence in today's report raises vital questions which must be examined.

    And the Attorney General has assured me that he will examine this new evidence immediately and reach a decision as fast as possible.

    But ultimately it is for the High Court to decide.

    It is also right that the House should have an opportunity to debate the issues raised in this report fully.

    My Rt Hon Friend the Home Secretary will be taking forward a debate in Government time. And this will happen when the House returns in October.

    APOLOGY

    Mr Speaker, I want to be very clear about the view the government takes about these findings and why after 23 years this matters so much, not just for the families but for Liverpool and for our country as a whole.

    Mr Speaker what happened that day - and since - was wrong.

    It was wrong that the responsible authorities knew Hillsborough did not meet minimum safety standards and yet still allowed the match to go ahead.

    It was wrong that the families have had to wait for so long - and fight so hard - just to get to the truth.

    And it was wrong that the police changed the records of what happened and tried to blame the fans.

    We ask the police to do difficult and often very dangerous things on our behalf.

    And South Yorkshire Police is a very different organisation today from what it was then.

    But we do the many, many honourable police men and women a great disservice if we try to defend the indefensible.

    It was also wrong that neither Lord Justice Taylor nor the Coroner looked properly at the response of the other emergency services.

    Again, these are dedicated people who do extraordinary things to serve the public.

    But the evidence from today's report makes very difficult reading.

    Mr Speaker, with the weight of the new evidence in this Report, it is right for me today as Prime Minister to make a proper apology to the families of the 96 for all they have suffered over the past 23 years.

    Indeed, the new evidence that we are presented with today makes clear that these families have suffered a double injustice.

    The injustice of the appalling events - the failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth.

    And the injustice of the denigration of the deceased - that they were somehow at fault for their own deaths.

    On behalf of the Government - and indeed our country - I am profoundly sorry for this double injustice that has been left uncorrected for so long.

    Mr Speaker, because of what I have described as the second injustice - the false version of events - not enough people in this country understand what the people of Merseyside have been through.

    This appalling death toll of so many loved ones lost was compounded by an attempt to blame the victims.

    A narrative about hooliganism on that day was created which led many in the country to accept that it was somehow a grey area.

    Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster".

    The Panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying."

    Mr Speaker, I'm sure the whole House will want to thank the Bishop of Liverpool and his Panel for all the work they have done.

    And I am sure that all sides will join with me in paying tribute to the incredible strength and dignity of the Hillsborough families and the community which has backed them in their long search for justice.

    While nothing can ever bring back those who have been lost with all the documents revealed and nothing held back the families, at last, have access to the truth.

    And I commend this Statement to the House.
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    I hope this starts to give the families some closure on this. My heart feels for them . There are a lot of people who ought to be apologising for comments they have made recently. However as it proves the comments were made out of ignorance, the ignorant will be too ignorant to apologise.
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    redman said:

    I hope this starts to give the families some closure on this. My heart feels for them . There are a lot of people who ought to be apologising for comments they have made recently. However as it proves the comments were made out of ignorance, the ignorant will be too ignorant to apologise.

    Quite - it astounds me that people continue to believe the police and press after so many scandals down the years.

    And also that people would offer such views after blatantly not bothering to do any research on the subject. Surely anyone who had done so, knew this outcome was likely.
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    edited September 2012
    some people are saying they dont know why the families were still pursuing 'the truth'

    i guess when your son/daughter dies you want to know every little detail.

    Then evenutally finding out 41 of the 96 could have been saved if they were given treatment after 3.15pm. Cant imagine how they are feeling.
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    In the light of today's disclosures and conclusions, anyone who attempts to blame Liverpool fans for what happened, is either stupid, malicious, ill-informed or, and quite possibly, a combination of all three.

    The victims have been cleared of any blame. The blame rests with the mismanagement of the crowd at the game, by the police. A police force who responded to the carnage by searching through their criminal record database and trying to find if there were any dead fans with previous convictions upon who blame could be falsely placed. From the very first moments, the police tried to subvert the truth, shifting blame from themselves, onto the innocent and the dead. 164 of their statements were either amended, buried or re-written in order to assist in the large-scale perverting of justice relating to the initial inquiry into the tragedy.

    It could have been any set of football supporters. To argue otherwise is to spread lies now discredited and disproved, in order to attempt to place the blame on those who lost their lives. To promote such an argument says more about you, than about anyone else. No doubt remains about where culpability rests. The only remaining issue is what should happen to those who lied, who distorted, who misled and deceived. Anyone half-witted enough to still promote those utterly discredited theories, should be quiet. If you can't be intelligent and humane, at least have the decency not to broadcast your ignorance.

    To be fair Mick, a fair number of 'ordinary' police did not try to cover up, in fact had it not been for some police, the families may never have known that their family members could and should have survived. Back then, had an ordinary PC Plod not done what he was told to do, he would have been squeezed out of the force. It's hard to 'stand up and be counted' when you face eviction from a police house with no means to support your wife and children.

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    Full report can be found here:

    http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf

    I am reserving comment here until I have read it.
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    What some don't realise either that this was an affront not just to Liverpool fans but to all football fans - including us. We come from all walks of life- the good, the bad and the ugly but have been labelled and treated according to the indescretions of a few or as the establishment would have it known - certainly in the recent past - the many. Liverpool fans were blamed because attitudes towards football fans from the establishment allowed it to happen and it has saddened me to see the ill informed comments from some Charlton fans on here.

    This may sound silly - but one example is that the Taylor report reccomended that alcohol could not be drunk on the terraces. Fans can drink as much as they like in the concourses and in pubs before the match, but whilst they can take their water or coke to their seat to drink, they can't take a half pint of Fosters. Now, the fact I can't do this doesn't really have a great affect on me in many ways, but I think it is an insult to me and fans in general that I can't. Rugby and Cricket fans can do this- the authorities are saying we as football fans can not be trusted. The premise is disrespectful and makes absoltely no difference to safety- people who are determined to get drunk will get drunk anyway.

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    Does this mean that they will look more into the rights if football fans in general? Will be eventually be allowed a beer in our seats, will they look at terracing? Will I be aloud to keep the bottle cap on my coke in the future?
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    To be fair Mick, a fair number of 'ordinary' police did not try to cover up, in fact had it not been for some police, the families may never have known that their family members could and should have survived. Back then, had an ordinary PC Plod not done what he was told to do, he would have been squeezed out of the force. It's hard to 'stand up and be counted' when you face eviction from a police house with no means to support your wife and children.


    Of course it wasn't 'all' police. The term relates, as it's used in the report, to the management and senior ranks - the decision makers who created a immoral policy and pursued a deeply corrupt path.

    Today isn't the day to get involved in splitting hairs though. The overall policy was one of deceit and illegality, and that's what caused this wrong to go uncorrected for 23 years.
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    Personally I think this justice movement must acknowledge that the Liverpool fans at that point in time (1980s) had a habit of going to many games without tickets or getting forged tickets, sneaking in however they could, this sounds harsh but it's is very true and despite how they try and sweep it under the carpet just isn't right, that said the Police that day was totally inadequate and although there was crushing outside, well, by opening the exit gate magnified it by 100s, they all headed for the tunnel at once and not showed to the wings (outside pens), this was another problem.

    Liverpool fans were allocated 2,000 tickets for the lowers tier, from what I saw there were about 6-7 k trying to get in.

    The F.A may have to look at themselves too, Why did they choose a semi final at Hillsborough in no safety certificate was issues, or was this 'common practice' in the 80's? only the F.A would know this answer.

    The way I see it, it was a chain of events that led to it happening, not just one thing.

    Whatever the outcome, 96 innocent lives were lost that day and this needs closing so everyone can get on with their lives.
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