Southeastern train disruption (franchise to be taken over by Govt p191)

charltonkeston

Off_it said:

Bromley Graham said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

Using your logic, you buy a car from a garage (Southeastern) but it doesn't work because 'parts' from the manufacturer (Network Rail) cannot be supplied to the garage immediately.  Rather than moan, what alternative is available that you would suggest?

I think Mr Largo has answered that question for me!

Southeastern then claim the money back from Network Rail which I believe to be government owed. So in a roundabout way we pay again.

Wheresmeticket

It's what happens when you get essential service run primarily for the benefit of shareholders.

Duncan270566

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

ValleyGary

Is it also Network Rails fault for the lack of rolling stock, poorly kept trains, continual faults with doors, shit excuses about lack of staff, overly priced tickets and timetables that make no sense? 

Wankers.

Off_it

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

So by that rationale if the signal fails we shouldn't blame Southeastern or Network Rail then, we should blame the company that made the faulty signal? Or maybe we should blame the individual on the production line responsible for putting the faulty signal together? 

Next time my trains are shit I will be sure to curse Barry from Derby, or Wang from Qingdao.

jacob_CAFC

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

So by that rationale if the signal fails we shouldn't blame Southeastern or Network Rail then, we should blame the company that made the faulty signal? Or maybe we should blame the individual on the production line responsible for putting the faulty signal together? 

Next time my trains are shit I will be sure to curse Barry from Derby, or Wang from Qingdao.

Blame Wangs teacher 

Off_it

jacob_CAFC said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

So by that rationale if the signal fails we shouldn't blame Southeastern or Network Rail then, we should blame the company that made the faulty signal? Or maybe we should blame the individual on the production line responsible for putting the faulty signal together? 

Next time my trains are shit I will be sure to curse Barry from Derby, or Wang from Qingdao.

Blame Wangs teacher 

Blame Barry's teacher. 

Blame Kenneth Baker for introducing the cuts to Barry's school where he didn't get educated properly.

Blame Maggie Thatcher for appointing Kenneth Baker. 

That will please some. If you're train is late today, blame Maggie Thatcher. 

sam3110

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

No they don't they give you a fraction of the money back, which is like when you shell out on a new car, it takes 6 months to deliver it to you but they throw in an air freshener and some floor mats for free.

Southeastern isn't fit for purpose, and no amount of finger pointing and blame shifting will convince me otherwise

Macronate

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

So by that rationale if the signal fails we shouldn't blame Southeastern or Network Rail then, we should blame the company that made the faulty signal? Or maybe we should blame the individual on the production line responsible for putting the faulty signal together? 

Next time my trains are shit I will be sure to curse Barry from Derby, or Wang from Qingdao.

billysboots

Overpriced , terrible service that you cant rely on. Just what you need to keep people out of their cars. 

Crusty54

Off_it said:

Bromley Graham said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

Using your logic, you buy a car from a garage (Southeastern) but it doesn't work because 'parts' from the manufacturer (Network Rail) cannot be supplied to the garage immediately.  Rather than moan, what alternative is available that you would suggest?

I think Mr Largo has answered that question for me!

Careful what you wish for. The government is pushing ahead with Great British Railways which will join everything up again.

Carter

billysboots said:

Overpriced , terrible service that you cant rely on. Just what you need to keep people out of their cars. 

This is it isn't it 

The trains are screwed so often on a match day that driving is the only practical way of getting to and from a game, then you have Greenwich Council being over-enthusiatic if I'm being kind about parking on roads that, if you drive down any weekday evening have thousands of empty spaces on, coupled with the ULEZ. 

I completely understand the rail network is old and it needs maintaining like any number of other old national assets. Where it falls down is the price, thats something nationalisation SHOULD cure but funnily enough once private enterprise or venture capitalists get involved with running services that should be nationalised they want to make a profit and have a fat margin to ensure those shareholders get a juicy dividend. What is insane is that there is no competition, it isn't like anyone can choose to travel avanti from medway to London, they are trapped with southeastern or nixies. 

Same with local authorities being PFI'd, and best of all, for the franchised operators, they are doing it at zero risk to them, they own no assets, have no skin in achieving performance targets as they know the government will subsidise them and if it gets that unsustainable shite like it has, the government just take it over and the operator walks away having handed the keys back 

Smithy

Duncan270566 said:

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

You may think it's "bullshit" but it's a true fact. If a signal fails, the Southeastern train can't move anywhere. It's stuck just as much as the people on it.
Yes, Southeastern take your money, and they will also give it back via the delay repay scheme if there is a delay to your journey 

Southeastern give you 25% of your fare back if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. TfL give you a full fare if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. Guess which of these companies is directly subsidised by the government in order to put money in the pockets of shareholders.

Crusty54

Duncan270566 said:

Southeastern give you 25% of your fare back if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. TfL give you a full fare if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. Guess which of these companies is directly subsidised by the government in order to put money in the pockets of shareholders.

Southeastern are on a costs plus a small amount contract to run the trains for the DfT. Effectively nationalised. Hardly money going to shareholders.

Crusty54

Carter said:

billysboots said:

Overpriced , terrible service that you cant rely on. Just what you need to keep people out of their cars. 

This is it isn't it 

The trains are screwed so often on a match day that driving is the only practical way of getting to and from a game, then you have Greenwich Council being over-enthusiatic if I'm being kind about parking on roads that, if you drive down any weekday evening have thousands of empty spaces on, coupled with the ULEZ. 

I completely understand the rail network is old and it needs maintaining like any number of other old national assets. Where it falls down is the price, thats something nationalisation SHOULD cure but funnily enough once private enterprise or venture capitalists get involved with running services that should be nationalised they want to make a profit and have a fat margin to ensure those shareholders get a juicy dividend. What is insane is that there is no competition, it isn't like anyone can choose to travel avanti from medway to London, they are trapped with southeastern or nixies. 

Same with local authorities being PFI'd, and best of all, for the franchised operators, they are doing it at zero risk to them, they own no assets, have no skin in achieving performance targets as they know the government will subsidise them and if it gets that unsustainable shite like it has, the government just take it over and the operator walks away having handed the keys back 

Both Network Rail and Southeastern are running under direct control of the DfT. Not sure how you can compete on trains in this part of the country.

Smithy

Crusty54 said:

Duncan270566 said:

Southeastern give you 25% of your fare back if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. TfL give you a full fare if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. Guess which of these companies is directly subsidised by the government in order to put money in the pockets of shareholders.

Southeastern are on a costs plus a small amount contract to run the trains for the DfT. Effectively nationalised. Hardly money going to shareholders.

£44m profit in 2019. Wonder how much of that they reinvested in infrastructure.

stevexreeve

Off_it said:

Duncan270566 said:

DaveMehmet said:

Thankfully don’t use them that often but every day I have for the last month or so, there’s been problems. Delays, trains cancelled at short notice etc. Just got to Lewisham and no Sidcup line trains due to signalling issues. Useless tossers 

Nothing to do with Southeastern. The 'useless tossers' run the trains and staff stations. Signals, track, points, power, in fact, everything else is controlled by Network Rail. 

I get fed up when this bullshit gets trotted out again and again.

If you bought a car and the engine kept conking out would you moan to the garage you bought the car from or say, "it's nothing to do with the garage" and wait for the engine manufacturer to do the right thing?

The government have deliberately set it up tis way though!

They are supposed to provide a decent railway system like almost every other country in the world. 

But they cover themselves by creating a phony "company" called South Eastern (which they also now own!) to act as a front so that people think there is somebody other the the government to blame.

Crusty54

Smithy said:

Crusty54 said:

Duncan270566 said:

Southeastern give you 25% of your fare back if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. TfL give you a full fare if you're more than 15 minutes delayed. Guess which of these companies is directly subsidised by the government in order to put money in the pockets of shareholders.

Southeastern are on a costs plus a small amount contract to run the trains for the DfT. Effectively nationalised. Hardly money going to shareholders.

£44m profit in 2019. Wonder how much of that they reinvested in infrastructure.

As i've explained on here several times infrastructure is down to Network Rail. They did have to repay a sizeable amount after accounting issues were revealed. A new managing director took over.

paulbaconsarnie

https://twitter.com/rb_awards/status/1628886482353065986?s=61&t=YMaMD_nroPvEgV42Ax-VlA

seems like southeastern has won some sort of rail operator award

Off_it

paulbaconsarnie said:

https://twitter.com/rb_awards/status/1628886482353065986?s=61&t=YMaMD_nroPvEgV42Ax-VlA

seems like southeastern has won some sort of rail operator award

Surely they should give that award to Network Rail?

Or is it just the bad things that get shunted their way?

DaveMehmet

paulbaconsarnie said:

https://twitter.com/rb_awards/status/1628886482353065986?s=61&t=YMaMD_nroPvEgV42Ax-VlA

seems like southeastern has won some sort of rail operator award

Wankers of the year?

ladywell_addick

Petition to hand over southeastern metro services to TfL. Having commuted on both southeastern and London Overground over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that the latter is far superior, especially on weekends (1/2 tph on a Sunday on southeastern, are you joking). Would be good if that could be rolled out to all lines in southeast London, not just the one through Brockley.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633153

More context:
https://853.london/2023/02/27/weve-had-enough-sign-our-petition-for-tfl-to-run-southeastern-metro/

RickAddick

ladywell_addick said:

Petition to hand over southeastern metro services to TfL. Having commuted on both southeastern and London Overground over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that the latter is far superior, especially on weekends (1/2 tph on a Sunday on southeastern, are you joking). Would be good if that could be rolled out to all lines in southeast London, not just the one through Brockley.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633153

More context:
https://853.london/2023/02/27/weve-had-enough-sign-our-petition-for-tfl-to-run-southeastern-metro/

What makes you think TfL have the financial resources necessary to provide the wonderful train service you are expecting?
The Overground network was created when money for rail investment was plenty in the run up to the Olympics. The financial situation is now very different. 

ladywell_addick

RickAddick said:

ladywell_addick said:

Petition to hand over southeastern metro services to TfL. Having commuted on both southeastern and London Overground over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that the latter is far superior, especially on weekends (1/2 tph on a Sunday on southeastern, are you joking). Would be good if that could be rolled out to all lines in southeast London, not just the one through Brockley.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633153

More context:
https://853.london/2023/02/27/weve-had-enough-sign-our-petition-for-tfl-to-run-southeastern-metro/

What makes you think TfL have the financial resources necessary to provide the wonderful train service you are expecting?
The Overground network was created when money for rail investment was plenty in the run up to the Olympics. The financial situation is now very different. 

It can't get any worse, that's my take on it

InspectorSands

RickAddick said:

ladywell_addick said:

Petition to hand over southeastern metro services to TfL. Having commuted on both southeastern and London Overground over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that the latter is far superior, especially on weekends (1/2 tph on a Sunday on southeastern, are you joking). Would be good if that could be rolled out to all lines in southeast London, not just the one through Brockley.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633153

More context:
https://853.london/2023/02/27/weve-had-enough-sign-our-petition-for-tfl-to-run-southeastern-metro/

What makes you think TfL have the financial resources necessary to provide the wonderful train service you are expecting?
The Overground network was created when money for rail investment was plenty in the run up to the Olympics. The financial situation is now very different. 

The Overground kept expanding after the Olympics, and there is already a plan to switch Southeastern Metro trains to TfL - it hasn't been followed through.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/dft-tfl-rail-prospectus.pdf

TfL's financial problems won't last forever, and experience on other lines shows that in the long term they're better placed to fix the problems with our trains than a company that prioritises deepest Kent.

RickAddick

InspectorSands said:

RickAddick said:

ladywell_addick said:

Petition to hand over southeastern metro services to TfL. Having commuted on both southeastern and London Overground over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that the latter is far superior, especially on weekends (1/2 tph on a Sunday on southeastern, are you joking). Would be good if that could be rolled out to all lines in southeast London, not just the one through Brockley.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633153

More context:
https://853.london/2023/02/27/weve-had-enough-sign-our-petition-for-tfl-to-run-southeastern-metro/

What makes you think TfL have the financial resources necessary to provide the wonderful train service you are expecting?
The Overground network was created when money for rail investment was plenty in the run up to the Olympics. The financial situation is now very different. 

The Overground kept expanding after the Olympics, and there is already a plan to switch Southeastern Metro trains to TfL - it hasn't been followed through.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/dft-tfl-rail-prospectus.pdf

TfL's financial problems won't last forever, and experience on other lines shows that in the long term they're better placed to fix the problems with our trains than a company that prioritises deepest Kent.

I agree that TfL manages their services well, but improvements on the North and West London Lines started from a very low base.
Much of what is in the brochure you linked could be provided by any operator, provided there is the will and finance from the DfT downwards to do it. And that is what is missing.
The DfT is clueless on what to do with SouthEastern, demonstrated by their failing to re-let the franchise on two (?) occasions and eventually dumping it on the state owned 'operator of last resort'. I think the reason was that the franchise bids received were significantly above what the DfT was willing to pay, so the expensive bidding process was canned.
The train service specification provided currently is what the DfT will pay for, so even though there must be enough trains and possibly staff (assuming SE hasn't reduced numbers) additional trains won't be reinstated unless the DfT coughs up the cash. Services have been cut across the whole of the SE network and not just the suburban routes.
The timetable provided just before the pandemic is probably the most that can be squeezed on a very constrained network without more vastly expensive infrastructure upgrades. I guess there is now a bit of a waiting game to see how many peeps return, especially in the peaks, before more investment is provided, including replacement of the ageing Networker trains.
What is needed for SE is a cunning plan that provides an adequate service level across the network on infrastructure that is reliable and people at all levels who have the vision and ability to carry it out. The DfT are incapable, whether the delayed Great British Railways organisation is up to this remains to be seen. Hopefully a decent plan will enable a decent operator to be appointed under a fit for purpose contract. 
Adding in another operator (TfL) will divert limited cash whilst part of SE is hived off to them and an additional level of complexity that just isn't needed.

Friend Or Defoe

Congratulations to South Eastern on winning rail business of the year! 😃

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2023/03/01/southeastern-win-rail-business-of-the-year/

ForeverAddickted

Friend Or Defoe said:

Congratulations to South Eastern on winning rail business of the year! 😃

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2023/03/01/southeastern-win-rail-business-of-the-year/

Same judges that have given Millwall "Community Club of the Year" in the past?

clive

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2023/03/02/southeastern-to-restore-some-off-peak-charing-cross-trains/

clb74

Bob Neill MP and Clive Efford not happy.
Bob said someone will top up seriously injured or killed at London Bridge after another incident earlier this week