We can be certain that there are deals being negotiated right now. Some will happen and some will not and we'll move on to other targets. Exactly the same as every other club in the market for players. The players we want were largely identified weeks and weeks ago and although any list would be fluid enough to cater for being knocked back there will be a list of names and second and no doubt third choices.
There's no way he would be playing that role himself. He isn't at the rest of his clubs so why charlton? No chance. There's someone doing the signings and I am 100% sure it's neither RD or Katrien.
I thought it was supposed to be football agent Dudu Duhan - assisted by a network of 'scouts' like our former Assistant Head Coach Karel Fraeye who's still working part time for Duchatelet.....?
It would be extremely troubling if Duhan, or any other agent, played such a role. Agents are people-traffickers. They are fundamentally unsuited to such a role. Furthermore, anybody playing such a role needs to be on the payroll, full time, so that they can be held accountable for their recommendations and decisions. Which in our case will beg another question. Which payroll? CAFC? Or Staprix?
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
As well as being the best football magazine out there WSC are pretty well-connected with the Duchatelet network and Belgian football. No doubt some posters on here will know better though. It's odd that RD doesn't have a Director of Football if he isn't going to let a manager have a say on transfers. Will we ever sign a British player again?
There's no way he would be playing that role himself. He isn't at the rest of his clubs so why charlton? No chance. There's someone doing the signings and I am 100% sure it's neither RD or Katrien.
I thought it was supposed to be football agent Dudu Duhan - assisted by a network of 'scouts' like our former Assistant Head Coach Karel Fraeye who's still working part time for Duchatelet.....?
It would be extremely troubling if Duhan, or any other agent, played such a role. Agents are people-traffickers. They are fundamentally unsuited to such a role. Furthermore, anybody playing such a role needs to be on the payroll, full time, so that they can be held accountable for their recommendations and decisions. Which in our case will beg another question. Which payroll? CAFC? Or Staprix?
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
this is not true --- Standard de Liège has a "cell sportive" which is lead by Jean-François De Sart. De Sart is an ex-player of standard Liège's both arch enemies FC Liège and RSC Anderlecht and he coached the belgian olympic team when they reached the semi-finals at the Beijing 2008 games. He became an assistent coach of Standard in 2010 and since 2011 he became Directeur Sportive.
Every professional football team in belgium and most other european countries works that way, with a "cell sportive" that deals with the longer terms stuff like long term strategy, youth development, transfers, appointing head coach. The head coach is responsible for everything that considers the first team, and reports back to the "cell sportive."
I'm no way a standard fan or a duchatelet fan, but the suggestion that an israeli football agent is in charge of Standard de Liege transfers is completely ridiculous.
Thanks. It would be good if we understood more about the Head Coach/SD system. In a typical club, at this time of year, how would the strengthening of the squad be planned, and then made to happen? Where does the Head Coach input end, and where does the SD input start?
Can't see any problems with the scouting/signing process. We have supporters on here making calls on players after watching youtube (se Rumours) and, even better, making judgements on players and coaches without even seeing them in action!
There's no way he would be playing that role himself. He isn't at the rest of his clubs so why charlton? No chance. There's someone doing the signings and I am 100% sure it's neither RD or Katrien.
I thought it was supposed to be football agent Dudu Duhan - assisted by a network of 'scouts' like our former Assistant Head Coach Karel Fraeye who's still working part time for Duchatelet.....?
It would be extremely troubling if Duhan, or any other agent, played such a role. Agents are people-traffickers. They are fundamentally unsuited to such a role. Furthermore, anybody playing such a role needs to be on the payroll, full time, so that they can be held accountable for their recommendations and decisions. Which in our case will beg another question. Which payroll? CAFC? Or Staprix?
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
this is not true --- Standard de Liège has a "cell sportive" which is lead by Jean-François De Sart. De Sart is an ex-player of standard Liège's both arch enemies FC Liège and RSC Anderlecht and he coached the belgian olympic team when they reached the semi-finals at the Beijing 2008 games. He became an assistent coach of Standard in 2010 and since 2011 he became Directeur Sportive.
Every professional football team in belgium and most other european countries works that way, with a "cell sportive" that deals with the longer terms stuff like long term strategy, youth development, transfers, appointing head coach. The head coach is responsible for everything that considers the first team, and reports back to the "cell sportive."
I'm no way a standard fan or a duchatelet fan, but the suggestion that an israeli football agent is in charge of Standard de Liege transfers is completely ridiculous.
Not altogether reassuring - if you're suggesting that De Sart is playing some sort of 'Director of Football' role for the whole Duchatelet 'network' (rather than just Liege)?
It was De Sart who was reported in March as saying:
"The objective is to share the players. When a player not good enough for the first team needs some experience he can go to Charlton," de Sart said.
"When we have a big talent of Charlton he can come also to Standard Liege."
There's no way he would be playing that role himself. He isn't at the rest of his clubs so why charlton? No chance. There's someone doing the signings and I am 100% sure it's neither RD or Katrien.
I thought it was supposed to be football agent Dudu Duhan - assisted by a network of 'scouts' like our former Assistant Head Coach Karel Fraeye who's still working part time for Duchatelet.....?
It would be extremely troubling if Duhan, or any other agent, played such a role. Agents are people-traffickers. They are fundamentally unsuited to such a role. Furthermore, anybody playing such a role needs to be on the payroll, full time, so that they can be held accountable for their recommendations and decisions. Which in our case will beg another question. Which payroll? CAFC? Or Staprix?
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
this is not true --- Standard de Liège has a "cell sportive" which is lead by Jean-François De Sart. De Sart is an ex-player of standard Liège's both arch enemies FC Liège and RSC Anderlecht and he coached the belgian olympic team when they reached the semi-finals at the Beijing 2008 games. He became an assistent coach of Standard in 2010 and since 2011 he became Directeur Sportive.
Every professional football team in belgium and most other european countries works that way, with a "cell sportive" that deals with the longer terms stuff like long term strategy, youth development, transfers, appointing head coach. The head coach is responsible for everything that considers the first team, and reports back to the "cell sportive."
I'm no way a standard fan or a duchatelet fan, but the suggestion that an israeli football agent is in charge of Standard de Liege transfers is completely ridiculous.
So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?
Thanks. It would be good if we understood more about the Head Coach/SD system. In a typical club, at this time of year, how would the strengthening of the squad be planned, and then made to happen? Where does the Head Coach input end, and where does the SD input start?
well at a typical club they would already have done their homework for next season, meaning they should have decided which players can leave which players have to stay, which positions need strengthening or are a priority, what type of player they need. This will have been done by the cell sportive in cooperation with the existing head coach, unless the head coach is leaving ofc.
Ofcourse if some other club has an insane bid on a player the above can change of course. It also depends what money they can work with for transfers sums and wages for the next season(s), which will be decided by the financial director/owner/whoever is in charge of that. To bring in money usually one or two of the "better" players will be sold to richer clubs/leagues, not because the clubs have no ambition, but because they need that money to survive financially. ****financial rules in belgium are very strict in football, and all clubs need a financial plan and prove in march of this year they have sufficient financial means to last until the end of the next season. They can also not have debts with other clubs, ex-players, FA, tax-debts, social securoty debts) If they have those kind of debts the club will not be granted a professional licence with will see them set back to amateur level at 4rd tier of belgian football. If financial problems occur, belgian clubs also cannot do any incoming transfers, if player wages aren't paid for two months, the players involved are free to sign a contract at another club. Financial situation is monitored constantly by the FA and clubs have to report their financial status every 3 months, so if things are starting to look bad, measures can be taken before it's too late. All those financial and professional licence measures were taken around 2005 after 4-5 clubs in the highest 2 levels went bankrupt during the season because of bad financial management ****
In belgium, due to most clubs not having a lot of money, they don't pay huge transfer sums, but will be mostly looking for players who are out of contract at another club, so he can move on free transfer, but that is mostly because the budget of belgian clubs is usually quite limited compared to clubs in the neighbooring countries like Holland, Germany, France and England.
So they judge which youth players are ready, which young talents they can bring in from abroad, some experienced players who are out of contract with their current club etcetera.
It is not because they have their homework done that they will get all the players they want, mostly due to finacial limitations, or the players they want deciding to go to another club. Then they have to go for a 2nd, 3rd 4th choice player, but also those options should normally be clear already. Of course it can happen that some opportunity occurs and they sign a player in late july or in august, who wasn't on the homework sheet. It just depends. Could also be that very few of the players they wanted sign, and they start to panick and do some last minute transfers (usually this is a bad idea and almost never pays off).
The idea behind a DS and a cell sportive is that they are long time employees at the club who should act in the best interest of the club all the time, securing long term stability. what the DS does not de is intervene with the HC on daily operations in terms of the first team. Training schedules, physical condition, tactics, team selection, etcetara is the sole responsibility of the HC and his staff.
There's no way he would be playing that role himself. He isn't at the rest of his clubs so why charlton? No chance. There's someone doing the signings and I am 100% sure it's neither RD or Katrien.
I thought it was supposed to be football agent Dudu Duhan - assisted by a network of 'scouts' like our former Assistant Head Coach Karel Fraeye who's still working part time for Duchatelet.....?
It would be extremely troubling if Duhan, or any other agent, played such a role. Agents are people-traffickers. They are fundamentally unsuited to such a role. Furthermore, anybody playing such a role needs to be on the payroll, full time, so that they can be held accountable for their recommendations and decisions. Which in our case will beg another question. Which payroll? CAFC? Or Staprix?
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
this is not true --- Standard de Liège has a "cell sportive" which is lead by Jean-François De Sart. De Sart is an ex-player of standard Liège's both arch enemies FC Liège and RSC Anderlecht and he coached the belgian olympic team when they reached the semi-finals at the Beijing 2008 games. He became an assistent coach of Standard in 2010 and since 2011 he became Directeur Sportive.
Every professional football team in belgium and most other european countries works that way, with a "cell sportive" that deals with the longer terms stuff like long term strategy, youth development, transfers, appointing head coach. The head coach is responsible for everything that considers the first team, and reports back to the "cell sportive."
I'm no way a standard fan or a duchatelet fan, but the suggestion that an israeli football agent is in charge of Standard de Liege transfers is completely ridiculous.
So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?
I do not know if De Sart is also involved for other clubs of the network. To my knowlegde he is an employee of Standard de Liège. Charlton not having a "cell sportive" is problematic if you work with a head coach european style and not a manager english style.
Dudu may be the agent of a few standard players or may be the agent of some players that were transferred to Standard or other "network" clubs. i'm not sure. i will look up which players have Dudu as a player agent.
But on Twitter, Dudu says he has taken the Israeli sun with him to Liege plus he comments on Liege players. So byl, I am confused by conflicting information :-(
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris) shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network. I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris) shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network. I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
Who cares? The point is, the players signed by RD so far are not good enough for The Championship. He needs to appoint someone with experience of British football as Director of Football, someone who knows what it takes to be a success in this country OR let the manager choose his own bloody players and not interfere in team selection. Not some agent on the take.
That is an interesting article but goes against the position argued in Sport. be which we covered in February where there is a direct quote from the Liege Sporting Director.
We did cover the role of Duhan back in February. He is an agent. He has a pool of players from Israel and increasingly eastern European countries. The attraction for someone like Duchatelet is clearly the cost of recruiting from such markets is significantly cheaper than from the more established markets.
I note Liege have just signed three youngsters from Kosovo.
I suspect Dahan seems himself as a sort of eastern European/ Middle East Jeff Vetere and clearly has a high appraisal of his own ability.
As far as I can see the role he has for Liege is as an agent for them to negotiate the deals. I am not sure that extends to being the main guy behind the decision to buy/ sign. Such a role would beg the question of having a Sporting Director, though I note De Sart is now out of contract.
Clubs across Europe particularly when "trading across borders" commonly use agents to act on their behalf for no other reason than they are likely to have local market relationships. I suspect we will have done so on occasion ourselves.
I précis the Sports.be article from June 2013 below
"At Charleroi, Dahan is no longer welcome though the Zebras (Charleroi) do not directly reproach Dahan.
The pedigree of this agent to Guy Luzon, the successor to Mircea Rednic at Standard, is amazing. Abbas Bayat ( Iranian former Charleroi president) was bamboozled by Dahan. Is it now the turn of Roland Duchâtelet? This 41 year old Israeli agent clearly has the talent to convince businessmen and presidents he can fulfil their dreams.
In January 2011, he brought in 8 players to Charleroi saying "The club now has a team to move into the Top 6" - at the end of the season they fell into in D2. Pierre-Yves Hendrickx, the current executive director of the Zebras is strong in his remarks:
"We had 2 mn in cash to invest well in the winter transfer market. Ultimately, Dahan was a sporting & financial failure. When Dahan came to Mambourg (Charleroi Stadium) he was always with Abbas Bayat. Dahan also knew his way to the Brussels office of our former president. When his protégés did not play, it was hell for the coach. Dahan often phoned Abbas Bayat, who then demanded an explanation from his various (coaches). In January 2012, Dahan publicly criticized coach Balog to Abbas Bayat. Who in turn criticised Balog. Abbas Bayat was in charge but it was Dahan who was making his decisions.
Dahan is now effectively blocked from our club. I met him in the crowd at Lierse in 2012-13. He no longer has any involvement with us. "
So today it is the boss of the Standard who blindly trusts him by hiring one of his stable as coach - Guy Luzon.
Dahan was a professional player in Israel but did not reach the heights and retired early, due to a knee injury. He is a qualified fitness trainer and has attempted to be a coach in his country but as he was already beginning to dabble in the transfer dealings of players the Israeli Federation told him to choose: be a coach or an agent.
Dahan is described as a controversial and arrogant man. He is accused of attempting to influence Luis Fernandez in his selections when the Frenchman coached the Israeli team. The last major complaint was guiding the signing of Luzon by Standard when the Luzon was managing the hopes of Israeli U21s in Euro's at home.
Luzon needed to focus on the tournament going well, but it was just the opposite and after two bad games, he became "public enemy number one" for the Israeli press. He aggravated his case when he criticized the public. Dahan says Luzon was wrong on this one here, but also balance: "The big problem with this Euro, it is the Israeli media.
To his credit, according to the Israeli press, he has an ability to bring Israelis players out of Israeli football or other minor competitions and take them to quality championship sides mainly in Belgium.
There is the striking case of Leor Refaelov who does good things with Club Brugge. and the success with Elvedin Dzinic or Mijusko Bojovic who moved to Charleroi after leaving Slovenia and Montenegro.
Dahan works with large numbers, he says it works well for 80 players: "I work differently from other agents" he said. According to him, the rise of Romanian club Cluj, D2 to Champions League, is partly due to him. Cluj, is the new club of Mircea Rednic, who incidentally accused Dahan of all the sins of Israel when installing Luzon in his place at Standard.
His clients are mostly in the Israeli league. He has other clients in Poland and Cyprus but they have not broken through. Dahan has already signed with Standard Liege - Maor Buzaglo, Rami Gershon and Biton. He works big with Luzon.
N.B. Of these only Biton is still with the club
Although Standard Liege, Sporting Director Jean-François de Sart simply states: "For me, Dahan is just a players' agent as others." nothing more.
He is clearly involved with Liege but the level of involvement is open to debate. I am not sure the claim he was responsible for our transfers to this point stands scrutiny - Thuram, Adjarevic, Reza, Koc all came from the supporting cast at Liege, while Nego also arrived from "in house". So 3 of the 4 were in place at Liege before de Sart made his above comments re Dahan.
He may well have been asked for his input but bearing in mind four of the players will be have been actively involved with the Liege coaches it seems unlikely you would go to an external source for a final decision.
I do not know why people keep questioning the validity of byi contributions - he clearly has a far greater experience of the local market. I suggest people re read his comments concerning how clubs work in Belgium.
For what it is worth I have tried to cover aspects of the differences between a manager and a head coach on another thread.
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris) shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network. I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
Who cares? The point is, the players signed by RD so far are not good enough for The Championship. He needs to appoint someone with experience of British football as Director of Football, someone who knows what it takes to be a success in this country OR let the manager choose his own bloody players and not interfere in team selection. Not some agent on the take.
well you don't care obviously - others stated dudu did all the transfers for the network and standard liege and then a whole discussion emreged from that. If i can find the players in the network who came by dudu on 5 minutes, so can others.
and i found 3 players. could have missed one or two maybe.
but yeah who cares - believe whatever stuff is written here by some others, and certainly don't let any facts get in the way of that, and certainly respond like "who cares" when someone comes up with the facts.
really if you look from an outsiders point of view on this forum, it's really laughable at times. kindergarten stuff.
There is a global conspiracy against CAFC and they had this evil belgian guy buy the club to appoint Yes Men everywhere. He has an israeli agent do all the transfers with the ultimate goal of getting charlton relegated to league 2 as fast as possible and to have subpar players play here so the belgian guy will let his 14 million he put into club go to waste as fast as possible. But hey who cares, i'm the one with sweeping statements and rubbish opinions and i'm not even a south Londoner, so an administrator is asked to check when i created my account, i get accused of being another poster who posted before, and i am probably paid by duchatelet to post here. now that is some seriously deluded stuff... wish i knew where you can buy those kinds of herbs to get you into such a state
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris) shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network. I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
Who cares? The point is, the players signed by RD so far are not good enough for The Championship. He needs to appoint someone with experience of British football as Director of Football, someone who knows what it takes to be a success in this country OR let the manager choose his own bloody players and not interfere in team selection. Not some agent on the take.
well you don't care obviously - others stated dudu did all the transfers for the network and standard liege and then a whole discussion emreged from that. If i can find the players in the network who came by dudu on 5 minutes, so can others.
and i found 3 players. could have missed one or two maybe.
but yeah who cares - believe whatever stuff is written here by some others, and certainly don't let any facts get in the way of that, and certainly respond like "who cares" when someone comes up with the facts.
really if you look from an outsiders point of view on this forum, it's really laughable at times. kindergarten stuff.
There is a global conspiracy against CAFC and they had this evil belgian guy buy the club to appoint Yes Men everywhere. He as israeli agent do all the transfers with the ultimate goal of getting charlton relegated to league 2 as fast as possible and to have subpar players play here so the belgian guy will let his 14 million he put into club go to waste as fast as possible. But hey who cares, i'm the one with sweeping statements and rubbish opinions and i'm not even a south Londoner, so an administrator is asked to check when i created my account, i get accused of being another poster who posted before, and i am probably paid by duchatelet to post here. now that is some seriously deluded stuff... wish i knew where you can buy those kinds of herbs to get you into such a state
so have fun you all, who cares indeed...
byl
Don’t you think you’re possibly guilty of exaggerating and over reacting yourself?
I was the one who posted some links about the role of Dahan and asked the question:
“I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?”
While Henry asked:
“So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?”
All very reasonable question in the absence of answers (or indeed much information at all) about who is identifying potential recruits for CAFC following our current mass clear out.
And it hardly qualifies as a paranoid “global conspiracy” theory suggested in your last paragraph I would have thought.
A dismissive post from one poster has upset you – but then you just mirror his attitude in reply.
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris) shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network. I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
Who cares? The point is, the players signed by RD so far are not good enough for The Championship. He needs to appoint someone with experience of British football as Director of Football, someone who knows what it takes to be a success in this country OR let the manager choose his own bloody players and not interfere in team selection. Not some agent on the take.
well you don't care obviously - others stated dudu did all the transfers for the network and standard liege and then a whole discussion emreged from that. If i can find the players in the network who came by dudu on 5 minutes, so can others.
and i found 3 players. could have missed one or two maybe.
but yeah who cares - believe whatever stuff is written here by some others, and certainly don't let any facts get in the way of that, and certainly respond like "who cares" when someone comes up with the facts.
really if you look from an outsiders point of view on this forum, it's really laughable at times. kindergarten stuff.
There is a global conspiracy against CAFC and they had this evil belgian guy buy the club to appoint Yes Men everywhere. He as israeli agent do all the transfers with the ultimate goal of getting charlton relegated to league 2 as fast as possible and to have subpar players play here so the belgian guy will let his 14 million he put into club go to waste as fast as possible. But hey who cares, i'm the one with sweeping statements and rubbish opinions and i'm not even a south Londoner, so an administrator is asked to check when i created my account, i get accused of being another poster who posted before, and i am probably paid by duchatelet to post here. now that is some seriously deluded stuff... wish i knew where you can buy those kinds of herbs to get you into such a state
so have fun you all, who cares indeed...
byl
Don’t you think you’re possibly guilty of exaggerating and over reacting yourself?
I was the one who posted some links about the role of Dahan and asked the question:
“I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?”
While Henry asked:
“So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?”
All very reasonable question in the absence of answers (or indeed much information at all) about who is identifying potential recruits for CAFC following our current mass clear out.
Hardly qualifies as the paranoid “global conspiracy” theory suggested in your last paragraph I would have thought.
A dismissive post from one poster has upset you – but then you just mirror his attitude in reply.
Spot on. I can see why people would get upset and maybe go over the top about the Club they support. Strange that someone who doesn't would do the same IMO.
Don’t you think you’re possibly guilty of exaggerating and over reacting yourself?
I was the one who posted some links about the role of Dahan and asked the question:
“I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?”
While Henry asked:
“So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?”
All very reasonable question in the absence of answers (or indeed much information at all) about who is identifying potential recruits for CAFC following our current mass clear out.
Hardly qualifies as the paranoid “global conspiracy” theory suggested in your last paragraph I would have thought.
A dismissive post from one poster has upset you – but then you just mirror his attitude in reply.
don't worry, i just have a low bullshit tolerance level...
as for dahan - i checked it out, he has 3 players in the network, mostly young unproven players - see their names above. that's something completely different than what other said here or launched as rumour. "who cares" as response to the first guy that actually checks out on dudu players in the network? It should be the first thing you guys should check yourselve
I said before that Charlton not having a Sportive Director or cell is really problematic if you work with a head coach model. If the head coach does not do the transfers and the management is unqualified (all respect to mrs Meire , but judging players abilities is not her job i guess), and the people knowing charlton way better than me claim there simply isn't anyone else in the club at the moment who might do that job, then that is a big problem . but i said that above already.
I don't know what influence dudu has at standard or at the network, so i checked what players he has there and it's 3 younger players that are under contract at standard and loaned out to other clubs. I do know that Jean Francois De Sart is Dierecteur sportive at Standard and he is looked upon as a capable guy for the job.
and really i didn't invent any conspiracy theory in that last paragraph in my previous post, of course it was meant ironic and cynical but i didn't make any of it up. it is all stuff you can actually read here.
but the lack of the Sporting Director is the key point here.
The continental head coach model has a lot of merits but it requires a Sporting Director and/or Sporting Committee to provide the long term strategy alongside the shorter term operational coaching and day to day management of the Head Coach.
But Charlton don't have one.
Or at least not one we've been told about.
So what are the possibilities.
1. The SL Sporting director is doubling up. Not great as divided loyalties and little knowledge of Championship football in general or Charlton in particular.
2. Dudu is acting in this role. Quite possible that he is advising RD on players and John Chapman seems sure he is. Not saying it is true but it is possible. That all the players signed aren't his doesn't prevent him giving advice, for a fee no doubt. Far from ideal through as there are clear conflicts of interest and again what does he know about Championship football and what Charlton need?
3. There is a shadow Sporting Committee made up of Karel Faraye (sp) the ex- assistant to Riga and three others as mentioned by KF who scout players using a version of pro-zone. The same weaknesses and conflicts of interest as they work for other Clubs.
4. Something else
Whoever it is/was they didn't do a great job in January IMO and it would seem that KM agrees.
So the question stands.
If the head coach model is to work then it needs a Sporting director and/or Sporting Committee.
Right now it APPEARS there is no such thing in place which must undermine the Club's ability to identify and sign up the RIGHT players.
Having a head coach is just the first step.
It could all be worry over nothing but since the Club chooses not to communicate about this vital area of the Club's plans going forward it remains a legitimate concern and topic for discussion, for me at least.
but the lack of the Sporting Director is the key point here.
The continental head coach model has a lot of merits but it requires a Sporting Director and/or Sporting Committee to provide the long term strategy alongside the shorter term operational coaching and day to day management of the Head Coach.
But Charlton don't have one.
Or at least not one we've been told about.
So what are the possibilities.
1. The SL Sporting director is doubling up. Not great as divided loyalties and little knowledge of Championship football in general or Charlton in particular.
2. Dudu is acting in this role. Quite possible that he is advising RD on players and John Chapman seems sure he is. Not saying it is true but it is possible. That all the players signed aren't his doesn't prevent him giving advice, for a fee no doubt. Far from ideal through as there are clear conflicts of interest and again what does he know about Championship football and what Charlton need?
3. There is a shadow Sporting Committee made up of Karel Faraye (sp) the ex- assistant to Riga and three others as mentioned by KF who scout players using a version of pro-zone. The same weaknesses and conflicts of interest as they work for other Clubs.
4. Something else
Whoever it is/was they didn't do a great job in January IMO and it would seem that KM agrees.
So the question stands.
If the head coach model is to work then it needs a Sporting director and/or Sporting Committee.
Right now it APPEARS there is no such thing in place which must undermine the Club's ability to identify and sign up the RIGHT players.
Having a head coach is just the first step.
It could all be worry over nothing but since the Club chooses not to communicate about this vital area of the Club's plans going forward it remains a legitimate concern and topic for discussion, for me at least.
I presume a great person to ask is Phil Chappell? I assume he would somewhere into the process? I don't how contactable or forth coming he is with information - but if anyone knows on a CAFC level what the recruitment/transfer policy with an element of trust to CAFC he'd be your man!
A lot of us are very interested in all you have to say, just ignore those that aren't (although I think @TheRedRobin was just expressing his frustration with the lack of clarity within the club right now, and not with your reply)
In order to really nail the difference between the British and Continental system, here are two scenarios which could occur . Please tell us how you would expect them to be resolved in a Belgian club.
1. The Head Coach(Manager) finds that a player in the squad, who was at the club before the HC arrived, is becoming increasingly uncooperative, and the HC thinks he is stirring up trouble with the other players. In Britain I think the HC would be able to say "He's got to go". And go he does. Would that be the case in Belgium, if there was a Sporting Director?
2. The Head Coach(Manager), needs a new striker urgently. He knows from the Board roughly what the budget is. The Chief Scout, working to his brief, brings him two options; an established 28 year old English player, and a 21 year old from Bosnia, who players for a lesser Swedish first Division team, but has banged in loads of goals for the national U21 team and is being compared to Dzeko. The Board might favour the young Bosnian, because they think he has development potential. but the Head Coach says, "too risky, and my mate Malky Mackay has worked with the English guy and says he's a good team player". So the Head Coach prevails. But again, in Belgium, would he prevail, if the Sporting Director had favoured the Bosnian kid?
It's ridiculous mate, the forum is turning into a joke, some of the posts are ridiculous. Your contribution is very much welcome and eye opening.
Unfortunately there are a number of posters who won't believe anything you say as they've already decided RD is satan
I have to disagree with that. This thread actually contains a lot of reasoned and intelligent discussion, as far as I can tell. The problem seems to be that some posters regard any questioning of the regime as acts of treason committed by hysterical, would-be suicides.
A lot of us are very interested in all you have to say, just ignore those that aren't (although I think @TheRedRobin was just expressing his frustration with the lack of clarity within the club right now, and not with your reply)
Comments
"After making some bad calls, Duchâtelet has handed over decision-making on transfers to an Israeli agent, Dudu Dahan. So far this has not caused major problems with the Standard fans – as most inter-company transfers are outgoing – but he was undoubtedly the man behind the choice of players who recently moved to Charlton and other clubs owned by Duchâtelet".
I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?
So we can look forward to more signings of the calibre that we had in January?
Good God, I hope not.
Every professional football team in belgium and most other european countries works that way, with a "cell sportive" that deals with the longer terms stuff like long term strategy, youth development, transfers, appointing head coach. The head coach is responsible for everything that considers the first team, and reports back to the "cell sportive."
I'm no way a standard fan or a duchatelet fan, but the suggestion that an israeli football agent is in charge of Standard de Liege transfers is completely ridiculous.
Thanks. It would be good if we understood more about the Head Coach/SD system. In a typical club, at this time of year, how would the strengthening of the squad be planned, and then made to happen? Where does the Head Coach input end, and where does the SD input start?
It was De Sart who was reported in March as saying:
"The objective is to share the players. When a player not good enough for the first team needs some experience he can go to Charlton," de Sart said.
"When we have a big talent of Charlton he can come also to Standard Liege."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26418684
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?
Ofcourse if some other club has an insane bid on a player the above can change of course. It also depends what money they can work with for transfers sums and wages for the next season(s), which will be decided by the financial director/owner/whoever is in charge of that. To bring in money usually one or two of the "better" players will be sold to richer clubs/leagues, not because the clubs have no ambition, but because they need that money to survive financially.
****financial rules in belgium are very strict in football, and all clubs need a financial plan and prove in march of this year they have sufficient financial means to last until the end of the next season. They can also not have debts with other clubs, ex-players, FA, tax-debts, social securoty debts) If they have those kind of debts the club will not be granted a professional licence with will see them set back to amateur level at 4rd tier of belgian football. If financial problems occur, belgian clubs also cannot do any incoming transfers, if player wages aren't paid for two months, the players involved are free to sign a contract at another club. Financial situation is monitored constantly by the FA and clubs have to report their financial status every 3 months, so if things are starting to look bad, measures can be taken before it's too late. All those financial and professional licence measures were taken around 2005 after 4-5 clubs in the highest 2 levels went bankrupt during the season because of bad financial management ****
In belgium, due to most clubs not having a lot of money, they don't pay huge transfer sums, but will be mostly looking for players who are out of contract at another club, so he can move on free transfer, but that is mostly because the budget of belgian clubs is usually quite limited compared to clubs in the neighbooring countries like Holland, Germany, France and England.
So they judge which youth players are ready, which young talents they can bring in from abroad, some experienced players who are out of contract with their current club etcetera.
It is not because they have their homework done that they will get all the players they want, mostly due to finacial limitations, or the players they want deciding to go to another club. Then they have to go for a 2nd, 3rd 4th choice player, but also those options should normally be clear already. Of course it can happen that some opportunity occurs and they sign a player in late july or in august, who wasn't on the homework sheet. It just depends. Could also be that very few of the players they wanted sign, and they start to panick and do some last minute transfers (usually this is a bad idea and almost never pays off).
The idea behind a DS and a cell sportive is that they are long time employees at the club who should act in the best interest of the club all the time, securing long term stability. what the DS does not de is intervene with the HC on daily operations in terms of the first team. Training schedules, physical condition, tactics, team selection, etcetara is the sole responsibility of the HC and his staff.
Charlton not having a "cell sportive" is problematic if you work with a head coach european style and not a manager english style.
Dudu may be the agent of a few standard players or may be the agent of some players that were transferred to Standard or other "network" clubs. i'm not sure. i will look up which players have Dudu as a player agent.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/dec/21/blackburn-rovers-venkys-jerome-anderson
http://www.scoutpush.net/
8 of these players played or play in belgium to my knowledge the last few years
GK:
thuram - no need to introduce him i guess
DEF:
Rami gershon, israali, came to standard in 2009, before duchatelet was at the club. Last year at waasland-beveren before Bob Peeters was there
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rami-gershon/profil/spieler/125745
Gal Shish, israeli, beveren in season 2012/2013, where he did really well, this season in Ukraine.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/gal-shish/profil/spieler/62180
MID
liroy zhairi, played for KV Mechelen in 2012/13, not a player that made a big impact here
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/liroy-zhairi/profil/spieler/112686
lior refaelov, club brugge since 2011- one of the better players in the belgian league
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lior-refaelov/profil/spieler/24484
ATT
dudu biton, cam to standard now at alcaron , so in the network.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dudu-biton/profil/spieler/58327
yadin zaris, also in the network (standard, ujpest, Stvv)
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/yadin-zaris/profil/spieler/234003
barack badash, 1 season on loan to beveren in 2012/2013 , was their best striker that season
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/barak-badash/profil/spieler/129787
So 3 network players, all youngsters (thuram, biton, zaris)
shish, badash, gershon, refaelov are decent players who played in belgium, but not connected to duchatelet (gershon was bought by standard before duchatelet was there)
So i don't see how having 3 younger players represented by Dudu duham equals "do all tranfers for Standard de Liege" and the duchatelet network.
I only did a quick research, might be i missed a player.
We did cover the role of Duhan back in February. He is an agent. He has a pool of players from Israel and increasingly eastern European countries. The attraction for someone like Duchatelet is clearly the cost of recruiting from such markets is significantly cheaper than from the more established markets.
I note Liege have just signed three youngsters from Kosovo.
I suspect Dahan seems himself as a sort of eastern European/ Middle East Jeff Vetere and clearly has a high appraisal of his own ability.
As far as I can see the role he has for Liege is as an agent for them to negotiate the deals. I am not sure that extends to being the main guy behind the decision to buy/ sign. Such a role would beg the question of having a Sporting Director, though I note De Sart is now out of contract.
Clubs across Europe particularly when "trading across borders" commonly use agents to act on their behalf for no other reason than they are likely to have local market relationships. I suspect we will have done so on occasion ourselves.
I précis the Sports.be article from June 2013 below
"At Charleroi, Dahan is no longer welcome though the Zebras (Charleroi) do not directly reproach Dahan.
The pedigree of this agent to Guy Luzon, the successor to Mircea Rednic at Standard, is amazing. Abbas Bayat ( Iranian former Charleroi president) was bamboozled by Dahan. Is it now the turn of Roland Duchâtelet? This 41 year old Israeli agent clearly has the talent to convince businessmen and presidents he can fulfil their dreams.
In January 2011, he brought in 8 players to Charleroi saying "The club now has a team to move into the Top 6" - at the end of the season they fell into in D2. Pierre-Yves Hendrickx, the current executive director of the Zebras is strong in his remarks:
"We had 2 mn in cash to invest well in the winter transfer market. Ultimately, Dahan was a sporting & financial failure. When Dahan came to Mambourg (Charleroi Stadium) he was always with Abbas Bayat. Dahan also knew his way to the Brussels office of our former president. When his protégés did not play, it was hell for the coach. Dahan often phoned Abbas Bayat, who then demanded an explanation from his various (coaches). In January 2012, Dahan publicly criticized coach Balog to Abbas Bayat. Who in turn criticised Balog. Abbas Bayat was in charge but it was Dahan who was making his decisions.
Dahan is now effectively blocked from our club. I met him in the crowd at Lierse in 2012-13. He no longer has any involvement with us. "
So today it is the boss of the Standard who blindly trusts him by hiring one of his stable as coach - Guy Luzon.
Dahan was a professional player in Israel but did not reach the heights and retired early, due to a knee injury. He is a qualified fitness trainer and has attempted to be a coach in his country but as he was already beginning to dabble in the transfer dealings of players the Israeli Federation told him to choose: be a coach or an agent.
Dahan is described as a controversial and arrogant man. He is accused of attempting to influence Luis Fernandez in his selections when the Frenchman coached the Israeli team. The last major complaint was guiding the signing of Luzon by Standard when the Luzon was managing the hopes of Israeli U21s in Euro's at home.
Luzon needed to focus on the tournament going well, but it was just the opposite and after two bad games, he became "public enemy number one" for the Israeli press. He aggravated his case when he criticized the public. Dahan says Luzon was wrong on this one here, but also balance: "The big problem with this Euro, it is the Israeli media.
To his credit, according to the Israeli press, he has an ability to bring Israelis players out of Israeli football or other minor competitions and take them to quality championship sides mainly in Belgium.
There is the striking case of Leor Refaelov who does good things with Club Brugge. and the success with Elvedin Dzinic or Mijusko Bojovic who moved to Charleroi after leaving Slovenia and Montenegro.
Dahan works with large numbers, he says it works well for 80 players: "I work differently from other agents" he said. According to him, the rise of Romanian club Cluj, D2 to Champions League, is partly due to him. Cluj, is the new club of Mircea Rednic, who incidentally accused Dahan of all the sins of Israel when installing Luzon in his place at Standard.
His clients are mostly in the Israeli league. He has other clients in Poland and Cyprus but they have not broken through. Dahan has already signed with Standard Liege - Maor Buzaglo, Rami Gershon and Biton. He works big with Luzon.
N.B. Of these only Biton is still with the club
Although Standard Liege, Sporting Director Jean-François de Sart simply states: "For me, Dahan is just a players' agent as others." nothing more.
He is clearly involved with Liege but the level of involvement is open to debate. I am not sure the claim he was responsible for our transfers to this point stands scrutiny - Thuram, Adjarevic, Reza, Koc all came from the supporting cast at Liege, while Nego also arrived from "in house". So 3 of the 4 were in place at Liege before de Sart made his above comments re Dahan.
He may well have been asked for his input but bearing in mind four of the players will be have been actively involved with the Liege coaches it seems unlikely you would go to an external source for a final decision.
I do not know why people keep questioning the validity of byi contributions - he clearly has a far greater experience of the local market. I suggest people re read his comments concerning how clubs work in Belgium.
For what it is worth I have tried to cover aspects of the differences between a manager and a head coach on another thread.
and i found 3 players. could have missed one or two maybe.
but yeah who cares - believe whatever stuff is written here by some others, and certainly don't let any facts get in the way of that, and certainly respond like "who cares" when someone comes up with the facts.
really if you look from an outsiders point of view on this forum, it's really laughable at times. kindergarten stuff.
There is a global conspiracy against CAFC and they had this evil belgian guy buy the club to appoint Yes Men everywhere. He has an israeli agent do all the transfers with the ultimate goal of getting charlton relegated to league 2 as fast as possible and to have subpar players play here so the belgian guy will let his 14 million he put into club go to waste as fast as possible. But hey who cares, i'm the one with sweeping statements and rubbish opinions and i'm not even a south Londoner, so an administrator is asked to check when i created my account, i get accused of being another poster who posted before, and i am probably paid by duchatelet to post here. now that is some seriously deluded stuff... wish i knew where you can buy those kinds of herbs to get you into such a state
so have fun you all, who cares indeed...
Unfortunately there are a number of posters who won't believe anything you say as they've already decided RD is satan
Don’t you think you’re possibly guilty of exaggerating and over reacting yourself?
I was the one who posted some links about the role of Dahan and asked the question:
“I have no idea how true this is - but it's been widely reported (not just by WSC) and Airman seemed to think it was credible when he tweeted about it in February....?”
While Henry asked:
“So who are Charlton's "Cell Sportive"?
We don't appear to have anyone other than Bobby Peeters on board.
And what influence does Dudu have at Standard or any of the other network clubs? If none then why does John Chapman (@belgofoot) feel so sure that he does?”
All very reasonable question in the absence of answers (or indeed much information at all) about who is identifying potential recruits for CAFC following our current mass clear out.
And it hardly qualifies as a paranoid “global conspiracy” theory suggested in your last paragraph I would have thought.
A dismissive post from one poster has upset you – but then you just mirror his attitude in reply.
But carry on posting. All interesting stuff.
as for dahan - i checked it out, he has 3 players in the network, mostly young unproven players - see their names above. that's something completely different than what other said here or launched as rumour.
"who cares" as response to the first guy that actually checks out on dudu players in the network? It should be the first thing you guys should check yourselve
I said before that Charlton not having a Sportive Director or cell is really problematic if you work with a head coach model. If the head coach does not do the transfers and the management is unqualified (all respect to mrs Meire , but judging players abilities is not her job i guess), and the people knowing charlton way better than me claim there simply isn't anyone else in the club at the moment who might do that job, then that is a big problem . but i said that above already.
I don't know what influence dudu has at standard or at the network, so i checked what players he has there and it's 3 younger players that are under contract at standard and loaned out to other clubs. I do know that Jean Francois De Sart is Dierecteur sportive at Standard and he is looked upon as a capable guy for the job.
and really i didn't invent any conspiracy theory in that last paragraph in my previous post, of course it was meant ironic and cynical but i didn't make any of it up. it is all stuff you can actually read here.
The continental head coach model has a lot of merits but it requires a Sporting Director and/or Sporting Committee to provide the long term strategy alongside the shorter term operational coaching and day to day management of the Head Coach.
But Charlton don't have one.
Or at least not one we've been told about.
So what are the possibilities.
1. The SL Sporting director is doubling up. Not great as divided loyalties and little knowledge of Championship football in general or Charlton in particular.
2. Dudu is acting in this role. Quite possible that he is advising RD on players and John Chapman seems sure he is. Not saying it is true but it is possible. That all the players signed aren't his doesn't prevent him giving advice, for a fee no doubt. Far from ideal through as there are clear conflicts of interest and again what does he know about Championship football and what Charlton need?
3. There is a shadow Sporting Committee made up of Karel Faraye (sp) the ex- assistant to Riga and three others as mentioned by KF who scout players using a version of pro-zone. The same weaknesses and conflicts of interest as they work for other Clubs.
4. Something else
Whoever it is/was they didn't do a great job in January IMO and it would seem that KM agrees.
So the question stands.
If the head coach model is to work then it needs a Sporting director and/or Sporting Committee.
Right now it APPEARS there is no such thing in place which must undermine the Club's ability to identify and sign up the RIGHT players.
Having a head coach is just the first step.
It could all be worry over nothing but since the Club chooses not to communicate about this vital area of the Club's plans going forward it remains a legitimate concern and topic for discussion, for me at least.
It's that simple
A lot of us are very interested in all you have to say, just ignore those that aren't (although I think @TheRedRobin was just expressing his frustration with the lack of clarity within the club right now, and not with your reply)
In order to really nail the difference between the British and Continental system, here are two scenarios which could occur . Please tell us how you would expect them to be resolved in a Belgian club.
1. The Head Coach(Manager) finds that a player in the squad, who was at the club before the HC arrived, is becoming increasingly uncooperative, and the HC thinks he is stirring up trouble with the other players. In Britain I think the HC would be able to say "He's got to go". And go he does. Would that be the case in Belgium, if there was a Sporting Director?
2. The Head Coach(Manager), needs a new striker urgently. He knows from the Board roughly what the budget is. The Chief Scout, working to his brief, brings him two options; an established 28 year old English player, and a 21 year old from Bosnia, who players for a lesser Swedish first Division team, but has banged in loads of goals for the national U21 team and is being compared to Dzeko. The Board might favour the young Bosnian, because they think he has development potential. but the Head Coach says, "too risky, and my mate Malky Mackay has worked with the English guy and says he's a good team player". So the Head Coach prevails. But again, in Belgium, would he prevail, if the Sporting Director had favoured the Bosnian kid?