I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
From the article I posted:
The Grassy Knoll, Part 1: Frame 313
Kennedy
was shot twice: first through the neck (by the bullet that went on to
pierce Connally), then in the head. The Zapruder film captured this shot
too, in Frame 313. The image was deemed so horrifying that it was
excised from public viewings of the film until 1975, when President
Gerald Ford (who’d served on the Warren Commission) ordered it released.
I remember watching the fully restored film on TV. It really was
horrifying. You saw the top of President Kennedy’s head literally blown
off. But it was creepy for another reason: the blown-off piece of his
head blew backward. In other words, it looked like that fatal
bullet was fired not from behind Kennedy, like the first bullet, but
from in front of him. Were there two gunmen after all—Oswald in the book
depository and someone else perched in the area known as the “grassy
knoll”?
I
went back to the library and scoured the Warren hearings. There I found
neurologists testifying that a nerve ending can explode when hit by a
bullet and that the two trajectories—where the bullet came from and
which way the nerve fragments fly—are not necessarily related.
Experiments from the 1940s, in which bullets were fired into the heads
of live goats, revealed this fact. So, the evidence of Frame 313 was at
least ambiguous; it said nothing, one way or the other, about the
plausibility of a second-gunman theory.
However, in 1975, CBS News,
which was doing a documentary on the assassination, hired a tech firm
to conduct a high-resolution analysis of the Zapruder film, using
instruments that hadn’t existed in the Warren Commission’s day. The firm
discovered that, on Frame 312, Kennedy’s head slammed a tiny bit forward,
and much more quickly than it jolted backward an instant later on Frame
313. The implication: The bullet hit his head from behind, pushing him
forward, then a nerve exploded, which happened to push him backward.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
"I'm not into conspiracy theories, but...."
I'm not sure its physically possible..."
This is why conspiracy theories are nonsense...people make stuff up and believe experts are wrong because its more interesting to ignore the fact that most of the time what happened is what happened:-
- An anti capitalist American with a gun killed JFK. - Armstrong walked on the moon. - 19 fundamentalists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings.
10 Downing Street is secretly controlled by 'the movement', a shadowy cabal figure-headed by Michael Gove, Dominic Cummings and Dougie Smith but led by a mysterious, frightening individual nicknamed Dr No. “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned. Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
10 Downing Street is secretly controlled by 'the movement', a shadowy cabal figure-headed by Michael Gove, Dominic Cummings and Dougie Smith but led by a mysterious, frightening individual nicknamed Dr No. “He is paid by Central Office, has a pass to No 10 and, some say, Rishi Sunak doesn’t move without first seeking his advice. And yet people can spend years working in No 10 and never hear his name mentioned. Dr No was once on remand in prison for alleged arson. When a girlfriend ended their relationship, it is rumoured that he had her little brother’s pet rabbit chopped into four and nailed to the front door of the family home to greet him when he got home from school, in true Mafia style.”
Now that, I can believe!
I'd like to believe that if we were in fact being run by a Bond-villain he'd actually be better at it than this bunch of corrupt, incompetent arseholes.
I watched the Channel 4 documentary called Kennedy, Sinatra and The Mafia a couple of nights ago and wondered what others thought. I don’t buy into conspiracy theory and all the usual ones are basically ridiculous but I’ve always thought that the JFK assassination left us without knowing the truth. The loan gunman seems highly improbable. What I heard and saw during the excellent documentary completely confirms to me that Kennedy was bumped off by at the very least The Mafia and quite possibly with the assistance of the CIA and or FBI. Be interested in your opinions.
The more people are involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is for the truth to have come out.
They have to be living to spill the beans. Many witnesses have mysteriously died post JFK death. Starting with Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby.
Not witnesses. The many people involved in the conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy someone involved in it would have sold their story by now.
Are CIA etc known for selling story's on all the Secret missions they were involved with ?
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
It’s not conclusive but it’s just one of a lot of very difficult “facts” surrounding the shooting.
Any Sasquatch boarding a BA flight from North America / Canada is going to have to have a pretty good disguise and that's assuming he knows someone who could forge his passport.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
I watched the Channel 4 documentary called Kennedy, Sinatra and The Mafia a couple of nights ago and wondered what others thought. I don’t buy into conspiracy theory and all the usual ones are basically ridiculous but I’ve always thought that the JFK assassination left us without knowing the truth. The loan gunman seems highly improbable. What I heard and saw during the excellent documentary completely confirms to me that Kennedy was bumped off by at the very least The Mafia and quite possibly with the assistance of the CIA and or FBI. Be interested in your opinions.
The more people are involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is for the truth to have come out.
They have to be living to spill the beans. Many witnesses have mysteriously died post JFK death. Starting with Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby.
Not witnesses. The many people involved in the conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy someone involved in it would have sold their story by now.
Well that’s my standard position on all conspiracies but, if the assassination did involve the Mafia which to me given the circumstances around the time then I’m not so sure that there would be anyone much left to sell their story. First rule of assassination is assassinate the assassin. (Jack Ruby). As for the CIA and or FBI. It would perhaps only be a handful in the know and working with the mob. Also not a good look to confess to involvement in the killing of the POTUS. I’m not saying it’s one thing or the other but LHO acting alone and achieving what he did with that rifle from that position is remarkable. Like @golfaddick I think he had significant assistance.
What assistance did he really need though?
It's been documented that his neighbour got him the job in the book depository, and so it was coincidence that the motorcade was passing his place of work rather than him travelling to find a good spot in a place he didn't know.
The rifle was mail order. It's America, after all.
He didn't get away in any clever way, basically shuffled off looking shifty first to a policeman he shot, and then to a member of the public who tipped off the rest of the police.
The only thing that with any sort of difficulty was getting a good shot in, he took 3, 1 missed, 1 was non fatal, 3rd one did it.
Could easily have missed and been another failed assassination attempt like a ton of others that failed for various reasons:
The problem is that witnesses who he worked with saw him eating his lunch 5 mins before the shooting.....and 30 secs afterwards. He was either very lucky to rush up & down 6 flights of stairs without being seen be anybody.....even though 2 work colleagues were on the staircase at the time. And also very calm to get into a shooting position just as JFK's car came into view. Oh no, I forgot, he must have been a few seconds late as he didnt decide to shoot him when the car turned just in front of the building when JFK was only yards away....no, he waited until the car had passed the building & going off down the road as shooting at someone going away from you is a lot easier than shooting someone in front of you. Of course....silly me.
Then, if he did shoot Officer Tibbett then he must have sprinted to his lodgings (where he got changed & picked up his revolver) and then sprinted to where he shot Tibbett just 20 mins later. Remember, this wasn't just around the corner from where JFK had been shot but over 1 mile away. Oh...and witness couldn't pick Oswald out in a line out.
And finally a member of the public who tipped off the police must have been really concerned about seeing a 30 year old man going into a cinema on a Thursday afternoon. Yes....very suspicious. This, again, wasn't near the shooting of Officer Tibbett, but half a mile away.
So, instead of the above, if LHO had been spotted running away from the Texas School Book Depository & been given chase...then shot a chasing policeman & then ran into a cinema when many witnesses to all this I would say.."Yes, it was him". But that never happened.
The only facts are that he worked in the building where the rifle was found and a co-worker gave him a lift into work that day with LHO carrying something. Yes, he bought a rifle under an alias & yes, he was ex-marine. But he also worked at a top military installation in Japan and was allowed back into the US, without questioning, after trying to defect to Russia.
And finally......he was questioned for 2 whole days in Dallas, and no records exist of this. Nothing he said was ever written down & shown to anyone (not least to the Warren Commission) and we are just supposed to think....ah yes, lone gunman. He must have done it.
I'm not an expert but a quick search:
He was last seen at the latest 20 mins before the shooting, not 5. Makes sense he wouldn't half around there for hours vwfiee etc.
He was seen 5 minutes afterwards, not 30 seconds.
He didn’t sprint anywhere, he got on the bus/buses.
The cinema thing, a bloke presumably walking along, but then seeing a police car, and quickly ducking into a building is definitely suspicious, its not like he stood queuing for a ticket and a bag of Revels.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
It’s not conclusive but it’s just one of a lot of very difficult “facts” surrounding the shooting.
I should probably admit, I was in Dallas last summer and did the “JFK Assassination” tour (which was awesome). The guy leading it was pretty heavily into the conspiracy stuff and he introduced us to another bloke who was all the way in, so this might influence my perspective somewhat!
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
It’s not conclusive but it’s just one of a lot of very difficult “facts” surrounding the shooting.
I should probably admit, I was in Dallas last summer and did the “JFK Assassination” tour (which was awesome). The guy leading it was pretty heavily into the conspiracy stuff and he introduced us to another bloke who was all the way in, so this might influence my perspective somewhat!
Very easy to be in that position. The JFK “conspiracy “ is the only one I have interest in. We definitely don’t know everything.
I watched the Channel 4 documentary called Kennedy, Sinatra and The Mafia a couple of nights ago and wondered what others thought. I don’t buy into conspiracy theory and all the usual ones are basically ridiculous but I’ve always thought that the JFK assassination left us without knowing the truth. The loan gunman seems highly improbable. What I heard and saw during the excellent documentary completely confirms to me that Kennedy was bumped off by at the very least The Mafia and quite possibly with the assistance of the CIA and or FBI. Be interested in your opinions.
The more people are involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is for the truth to have come out.
They have to be living to spill the beans. Many witnesses have mysteriously died post JFK death. Starting with Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby.
Not witnesses. The many people involved in the conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy someone involved in it would have sold their story by now.
Well that’s my standard position on all conspiracies but, if the assassination did involve the Mafia which to me given the circumstances around the time then I’m not so sure that there would be anyone much left to sell their story. First rule of assassination is assassinate the assassin. (Jack Ruby). As for the CIA and or FBI. It would perhaps only be a handful in the know and working with the mob. Also not a good look to confess to involvement in the killing of the POTUS. I’m not saying it’s one thing or the other but LHO acting alone and achieving what he did with that rifle from that position is remarkable. Like @golfaddick I think he had significant assistance.
What assistance did he really need though?
It's been documented that his neighbour got him the job in the book depository, and so it was coincidence that the motorcade was passing his place of work rather than him travelling to find a good spot in a place he didn't know.
The rifle was mail order. It's America, after all.
He didn't get away in any clever way, basically shuffled off looking shifty first to a policeman he shot, and then to a member of the public who tipped off the rest of the police.
The only thing that with any sort of difficulty was getting a good shot in, he took 3, 1 missed, 1 was non fatal, 3rd one did it.
Could easily have missed and been another failed assassination attempt like a ton of others that failed for various reasons:
The problem is that witnesses who he worked with saw him eating his lunch 5 mins before the shooting.....and 30 secs afterwards. He was either very lucky to rush up & down 6 flights of stairs without being seen be anybody.....even though 2 work colleagues were on the staircase at the time. And also very calm to get into a shooting position just as JFK's car came into view. Oh no, I forgot, he must have been a few seconds late as he didnt decide to shoot him when the car turned just in front of the building when JFK was only yards away....no, he waited until the car had passed the building & going off down the road as shooting at someone going away from you is a lot easier than shooting someone in front of you. Of course....silly me.
Then, if he did shoot Officer Tibbett then he must have sprinted to his lodgings (where he got changed & picked up his revolver) and then sprinted to where he shot Tibbett just 20 mins later. Remember, this wasn't just around the corner from where JFK had been shot but over 1 mile away. Oh...and witness couldn't pick Oswald out in a line out.
And finally a member of the public who tipped off the police must have been really concerned about seeing a 30 year old man going into a cinema on a Thursday afternoon. Yes....very suspicious. This, again, wasn't near the shooting of Officer Tibbett, but half a mile away.
So, instead of the above, if LHO had been spotted running away from the Texas School Book Depository & been given chase...then shot a chasing policeman & then ran into a cinema when many witnesses to all this I would say.."Yes, it was him". But that never happened.
The only facts are that he worked in the building where the rifle was found and a co-worker gave him a lift into work that day with LHO carrying something. Yes, he bought a rifle under an alias & yes, he was ex-marine. But he also worked at a top military installation in Japan and was allowed back into the US, without questioning, after trying to defect to Russia.
And finally......he was questioned for 2 whole days in Dallas, and no records exist of this. Nothing he said was ever written down & shown to anyone (not least to the Warren Commission) and we are just supposed to think....ah yes, lone gunman. He must have done it.
I'm not an expert but a quick search:
He was last seen at the latest 20 mins before the shooting, not 5. Makes sense he wouldn't half around there for hours vwfiee etc.
He was seen 5 minutes afterwards, not 30 seconds.
He didn’t sprint anywhere, he got on the bus/buses.
The cinema thing, a bloke presumably walking along, but then seeing a police car, and quickly ducking into a building is definitely suspicious, its not like he stood queuing for a ticket and a bag of Revels.
I beg to differ. Its on record that within less than a minute a policeman ran into the SBD and LHO was identified. He then left.
And if you read what I wrote above I said he walked back to his lodgings, which were about a mile away. I don't believe he caught any buses. But then, no one saw him, either going back to his lodgings or on his way to the cinema. There were a couple of witnesses to the shooting of Officer Tippett but none could pick out Oswald later.
As I've said, I have no idea what the truth is, but as someone has just posted above, getting off 3 shots in less than 9 seconds with a bolt-action rifle, and under extreme pressure is some going.
My view is that LHO didn't fire the fatal shot. He was probably aware an attempt on JFK's life was going to take place, and maybe he thought he was going to be part of it - but he didn't kill him. Just the facts of how many shots hit JFK, the time it took, and the head jerking backwards (and I don't take into account a couple of random "experts" saying how there is a slight trigger forwards & nerves in his head made JFK's head then snap backwards) tells me there were more than 1 shooter.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
Let’s say he was a good shot. In that 8.3 seconds he needed to take aim through a telescopic site. Fire a round, remove his eye from the target, using a lever action to reload. Re acquire the target through the site, fire a second round and then repeat the above. We know that two of those rounds were pretty accurate on a receding moving target and without intending to be crass the size of a medium pumpkin. All entirely possible but probably not that likely. Add in the other, admittedly conspiratorial background stuff and I think it’s not as clear cut and dried as some would have us think.
I know it is not like for like, but if you see a bullet fired into say a watermelon, the initial explosion is back in the direction the bullet came from
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
Let’s say he was a good shot. In that 8.3 seconds he needed to take aim through a telescopic site. Fire a round, remove his eye from the target, using a lever action to reload. Re acquire the target through the site, fire a second round and then repeat the above. We know that two of those rounds were pretty accurate on a receding moving target and without intending to be crass the size of a medium pumpkin. All entirely possible but probably not that likely. Add in the other, admittedly conspiratorial background stuff and I think it’s not as clear cut and dried as some would have us think.
There were 8.3 seconds between the first and third shot- so he had 4.15 seconds on average between shots one and two, and between two and three. Experts managed to do it in 2.5 seconds I believe, so entirely possible for a trained marksman (irrespective of whether or not he was competent or expert).
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
Let’s say he was a good shot. In that 8.3 seconds he needed to take aim through a telescopic site. Fire a round, remove his eye from the target, using a lever action to reload. Re acquire the target through the site, fire a second round and then repeat the above. We know that two of those rounds were pretty accurate on a receding moving target and without intending to be crass the size of a medium pumpkin. All entirely possible but probably not that likely. Add in the other, admittedly conspiratorial background stuff and I think it’s not as clear cut and dried as some would have us think.
Certainly one of the best conspiracies of the 20th century and one that I will agree is one of the more believable but I tend to err towards the more mundane boring side. A moving target yes but a moving target going from right to left as apposed to foreground to background is different and the shooting position was not random it was chosen, advantage gunman. And using a bolt action is not the action as you describe, most of that is instinctive through training and very quick. Also when shooting you don't necessarily aim for the head, the biggest mass is best, you can be a foot out the result will eventually be the same, in fact a hit anywhere with that gun would probably be a kill and the rifle was powerful enough for at least one round injured another after it exited JFK, I think that was the so called magic bullet.
The first bullet missed the car entirely & hit the sidewalk, ricocheting and nicking James Teague
If you believe the Warren Commission then the magic bullet hit both JFK and Connolly and was found on a stretcher at Parkland hospital in a pretty pristine condition. We know this as there was a chain of evidence, with police officers marking items that they found & bagged.
The 3rd bullet was the "kill" shot.
However, witnesses say they heard more than 3 shots, and quite a few people ran towards the grassy knoll - led by policeman & secret servicemen.
I watched the Channel 4 documentary called Kennedy, Sinatra and The Mafia a couple of nights ago and wondered what others thought. I don’t buy into conspiracy theory and all the usual ones are basically ridiculous but I’ve always thought that the JFK assassination left us without knowing the truth. The loan gunman seems highly improbable. What I heard and saw during the excellent documentary completely confirms to me that Kennedy was bumped off by at the very least The Mafia and quite possibly with the assistance of the CIA and or FBI. Be interested in your opinions.
The more people are involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is for the truth to have come out.
They have to be living to spill the beans. Many witnesses have mysteriously died post JFK death. Starting with Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby.
Not witnesses. The many people involved in the conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy someone involved in it would have sold their story by now.
Well that’s my standard position on all conspiracies but, if the assassination did involve the Mafia which to me given the circumstances around the time then I’m not so sure that there would be anyone much left to sell their story. First rule of assassination is assassinate the assassin. (Jack Ruby). As for the CIA and or FBI. It would perhaps only be a handful in the know and working with the mob. Also not a good look to confess to involvement in the killing of the POTUS. I’m not saying it’s one thing or the other but LHO acting alone and achieving what he did with that rifle from that position is remarkable. Like @golfaddick I think he had significant assistance.
The rifle part was thoroughly debunked in that docco, but can’t remember the details. But out of all the conspiracies I’m probably in agreement with you that this is the most likely to have substance. But for me, around a five percent likelihood.
The first bullet missed the car entirely & hit the sidewalk, ricocheting and nicking James Teague
If you believe the Warren Commission then the magic bullet hit both JFK and Connolly and was found on a stretcher at Parkland hospital in a pretty pristine condition. We know this as there was a chain of evidence, with police officers marking items that they found & bagged.
The 3rd bullet was the "kill" shot.
However, witnesses say they heard more than 3 shots, and quite a few people ran towards the grassy knoll - led by policeman & secret servicemen.
and in 60 years the official (and scientifically sound) explanation has never been trumped, despite the countless attempts to create an alternative reality...
The first bullet missed the car entirely & hit the sidewalk, ricocheting and nicking James Teague
If you believe the Warren Commission then the magic bullet hit both JFK and Connolly and was found on a stretcher at Parkland hospital in a pretty pristine condition. We know this as there was a chain of evidence, with police officers marking items that they found & bagged.
The 3rd bullet was the "kill" shot.
However, witnesses say they heard more than 3 shots, and quite a few people ran towards the grassy knoll - led by policeman & secret servicemen.
I wish I had a link to the documentary because explained all these things (and the head moving in whatever direction it moved in). Whenever shots are fired near a crowd the reports of how many shots were fired vary from person to person. Echoes can affect that as well.
I got into a row with a Greek guy recently who was pro Putin and believed all of the footage from the Ukraine was faked, and that the UK media were part of the conspiracy. When I told him I knew people risking their lives to get the truth out he still told me they were faking everything. Wasn’t the most relaxing dinner party I’ve ever been to. 😂
The first bullet missed the car entirely & hit the sidewalk, ricocheting and nicking James Teague
If you believe the Warren Commission then the magic bullet hit both JFK and Connolly and was found on a stretcher at Parkland hospital in a pretty pristine condition. We know this as there was a chain of evidence, with police officers marking items that they found & bagged.
The 3rd bullet was the "kill" shot.
However, witnesses say they heard more than 3 shots, and quite a few people ran towards the grassy knoll - led by policeman & secret servicemen.
I wish I had a link to the documentary because explained all these things (and the head moving in whatever direction it moved in). Whenever shots are fired near a crowd the reports of how many shots were fired vary from person to person. Echoes can affect that as well.
I got into a row with a Greek guy recently who was pro Putin and believed all of the footage from the Ukraine was faked, and that the UK media were part of the conspiracy. When I told him I knew people risking their lives to get the truth out he still told me they were faking everything. Wasn’t the most relaxing dinner party I’ve ever been to. 😂
What documentary was it. There were 2 on last week. I missed the one about Kennedy & the Mafia and the other one was just a rehash of news broadcasts etc.
I have seen countless documentaries & there are many on YouTube as well by well respected & renowned authors on the subject.
I have yet to see one comprehensively come out either pro or against the rifle. Many "expert" marksman have tried and the results are inconclusive. Some manage it but many don't. Also there is the factor of the tree. Did it hinder Oswald or didnt it. Did a bullet hit the traffic lights or not ? There is so much that is still unknown about the actual shots & all that we can go on is a grainy, wobbly cinefilm that almost misses the actual shots.
Just reviving this thread as Wednesday will be the 60th anniversary of JFK's assassination and I've been dragged back into the murky depths of the conspiracy.
Having spent the past week or so watching various YouTube videos I'm once again of the mindset that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone & probably wasn't even on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Store Depositary on that fateful day.
Too many incidents to go into now (Officer Tippett having been shot by 2 guns, neither being the one found on Oswald 10 mins later; witnesses saying Oswald was on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting; testimony changed in the Warren Report etc etc) but anyone still convinced it was a cut & dried case should watch the C5 programme that was on last night about the Doctors at Parkland hospital who treated JFK 60 years ago. All the ones still alive contest the "evidence" given to the Warren Commission & the autopsy done at the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 8pm that evening. Pure hokum.
I watched the Channel 4 documentary called Kennedy, Sinatra and The Mafia a couple of nights ago and wondered what others thought. I don’t buy into conspiracy theory and all the usual ones are basically ridiculous but I’ve always thought that the JFK assassination left us without knowing the truth. The loan gunman seems highly improbable. What I heard and saw during the excellent documentary completely confirms to me that Kennedy was bumped off by at the very least The Mafia and quite possibly with the assistance of the CIA and or FBI. Be interested in your opinions.
The more people are involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is for the truth to have come out.
They have to be living to spill the beans. Many witnesses have mysteriously died post JFK death. Starting with Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby.
Not witnesses. The many people involved in the conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy someone involved in it would have sold their story by now.
Well that’s my standard position on all conspiracies but, if the assassination did involve the Mafia which to me given the circumstances around the time then I’m not so sure that there would be anyone much left to sell their story. First rule of assassination is assassinate the assassin. (Jack Ruby). As for the CIA and or FBI. It would perhaps only be a handful in the know and working with the mob. Also not a good look to confess to involvement in the killing of the POTUS. I’m not saying it’s one thing or the other but LHO acting alone and achieving what he did with that rifle from that position is remarkable. Like @golfaddick I think he had significant assistance.
What assistance did he really need though?
It's been documented that his neighbour got him the job in the book depository, and so it was coincidence that the motorcade was passing his place of work rather than him travelling to find a good spot in a place he didn't know.
The rifle was mail order. It's America, after all.
He didn't get away in any clever way, basically shuffled off looking shifty first to a policeman he shot, and then to a member of the public who tipped off the rest of the police.
The only thing that with any sort of difficulty was getting a good shot in, he took 3, 1 missed, 1 was non fatal, 3rd one did it.
Could easily have missed and been another failed assassination attempt like a ton of others that failed for various reasons:
The problem is that witnesses who he worked with saw him eating his lunch 5 mins before the shooting.....and 30 secs afterwards. He was either very lucky to rush up & down 6 flights of stairs without being seen be anybody.....even though 2 work colleagues were on the staircase at the time. And also very calm to get into a shooting position just as JFK's car came into view. Oh no, I forgot, he must have been a few seconds late as he didnt decide to shoot him when the car turned just in front of the building when JFK was only yards away....no, he waited until the car had passed the building & going off down the road as shooting at someone going away from you is a lot easier than shooting someone in front of you. Of course....silly me.
Then, if he did shoot Officer Tibbett then he must have sprinted to his lodgings (where he got changed & picked up his revolver) and then sprinted to where he shot Tibbett just 20 mins later. Remember, this wasn't just around the corner from where JFK had been shot but over 1 mile away. Oh...and witness couldn't pick Oswald out in a line out.
And finally a member of the public who tipped off the police must have been really concerned about seeing a 30 year old man going into a cinema on a Thursday afternoon. Yes....very suspicious. This, again, wasn't near the shooting of Officer Tibbett, but half a mile away.
So, instead of the above, if LHO had been spotted running away from the Texas School Book Depository & been given chase...then shot a chasing policeman & then ran into a cinema when many witnesses to all this I would say.."Yes, it was him". But that never happened.
The only facts are that he worked in the building where the rifle was found and a co-worker gave him a lift into work that day with LHO carrying something. Yes, he bought a rifle under an alias & yes, he was ex-marine. But he also worked at a top military installation in Japan and was allowed back into the US, without questioning, after trying to defect to Russia.
And finally......he was questioned for 2 whole days in Dallas, and no records exist of this. Nothing he said was ever written down & shown to anyone (not least to the Warren Commission) and we are just supposed to think....ah yes, lone gunman. He must have done it.
So in the 60 years since it happened, how comes none of the alternative theories have been proven, nor has one of the many involved spilled the beans or been exposed?
For the same reasons the Soviets didn’t reveal the truth about the moon landings, and for the same reasons Al qaeda haven’t pointed out 911 wasn’t them.
Okay, on the JFK thing, I'm going to have to keep this short because I have work stuff and I'm just waiting to hear back on something:
It should be noted that the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) found in 1977 (I think) that JFK was "likely assassinated as part of a conspiracy." While I think their conclusion is correct (though I would take out the "likely"), the reason they go on, the recording from a motorcycle officer at the scene, is not the most reliable. There are a litany of eye witnesses who are far more reliable, not to mention the autopsy evidence (I will link to Doug Horne's stuff if people are interested), and that's before we get into multiple confessions to a variety of things.
More people have confessed to killing JFK than could have actually killed JFK. The short list of this includes various mafia figures, James Files, Charles Harrison (Woody's dad who later recanted), Lucien Sarti (who I think is the most compelling), and another member of the French Connection whose name is similar to Sarti's and who I always get mixes up with. There is also Charles Rogers, the Air Force guy whose name I can never remember, and various others.
As far as Oswald being a KGB agent, he wasn't. Simple. He was a false defector. He was so obviously a false defector that despite him offering intelligence on the U2, the KGB was like "yeah uh ok you seem totally normal why don't you go hang out in Minsk? Don't call us, we'll call you." There were two stories from two different "defectors" to the US in the '70s, but every bit of evidence suggests the Soviets didn't know what to do with or make of Oswald, so they just kind of gave him a sweet factory job on a better wage than anyone and then let him peace out with his Russian wife and baby. Oswald as false defector is backed up by documents in which Hoover in '59 says someone might be using his identity, by the fact that there were people in Dallas and I believe Nola using his identity while he was in the Soviet Union, and by the fact that he got a hardship discharge from the Marines, somehow got into the USSR via Finland (how would he have known to do that?), and then despite renouncing his citizenship, the State Department gave him money to come back with his Russian wife and baby which was almost unheard of at the time.
Oh, and he supposedly learned Russian "from reading books" despite no one really remembering him reading Russian books. Or that Russian is very hard to learn. Or that he was reported to speak Russian with a Baltic accent.
There's a lot more. I'm pretty sure I've talked about the two Oswalds (Harvey and Lee) theory on here, as well as my general belief that the assassination on the ground was carried out by a paramilitary group funded by the CIA called Alpha 66.
There's a documentary that just came out (I believe on Amazon here in the States) called "What the Doctor's Saw" and it reiterates what has been known for decades that the injuries the Parkland Hospital doctors treated bear absolutely no resemblance to the autopsy pictures in the Warren Report. Doug Horne, a member of the ARRB goes into a lot of detail about why he believes that to be the case, but at best it was an awful autopsy done poorly as a way of covering up the massive head wound as ordered by a mysterious General who claimed to be in charge in the autopsy room (who maaaaay have been Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay) and at most the autopsy pictures were doctored or the body was altered after it left Parkland, or most likely both.
I highly recommend JFK and the Unspeakable. I think it gives a good outline of who did it, and also the larger circumstances under which the assassination was carried out.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
Let’s say he was a good shot. In that 8.3 seconds he needed to take aim through a telescopic site. Fire a round, remove his eye from the target, using a lever action to reload. Re acquire the target through the site, fire a second round and then repeat the above. We know that two of those rounds were pretty accurate on a receding moving target and without intending to be crass the size of a medium pumpkin. All entirely possible but probably not that likely. Add in the other, admittedly conspiratorial background stuff and I think it’s not as clear cut and dried as some would have us think.
The telescopic lense was either not configured or just straight up not there and appears later. There is also a cop who claims he first found a Remington (I think) before it is later changed to a Carcano.
It should also be noted that marksmanship is a skill that requires practice. As best we can tell, Oswald didn't fire a gun after leaving the Marines in '59 until he shoots the President. Marina Oswald then says he was shooting at leaves in the park which seems...I mean nonsensical. There's a guy at a shooting range who shoots another guy's target then says he was pretending he was shooting at Kennedy who says his name was Oswald. Totally normal, despite the fact that Oswald was in New Orleans at the time.
I’m not into conspiracy theories, but I’m not sure it’s physically possible for LHO to have fired the fatal shot that killed JFK. The book depository was behind the car that JFK was travelling in when that shot hit him, his head snapped backwards indicating he’d been shot from the front.
Killing a world leader is a big enough story on its own without having to have 60 years of conspiracy theories. The constant "I heard a shot coming from...." is not real evidence as its very difficult even to get a general location if at the time you are concentrating on something else. For instance, the gun shot sound will reverberate and influence what people think and what people think they see. You may well be correct about the JFK's head movements but that in itself may not be a true indication of trajectory. I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
The real problem I have with the lone gunman theory is that although LHO was a competent (average) shot as stated in his military record he used a Mannlicher- Carcano lever action rifle with a telescopic sight. It’s been tried many times by expert marksman to replicate what LHO achieved with no consistent success. It has been achieved though within the 8.3 seconds. The time The Warren Commision concluded as the time taken by LHO the get off the three shots. The attempts to replicate Oswalds shots have of course not been carried out under the pressures LHO would have been under in assassinating the POTUS. His achievement for a non expert marksman is impressive.
As you say he was competent. Average may well be a good standard compared to other armies, I would think the American military train to a high standard so their average solder would be better than an average potential enemies so them calling him competent may well be just that while also no wanting to admit they've successfully trained a would be assassin. I believe the conspiracy theorists lean a bit too heavy on that fact that he was just bang average and it was difficult to do, he may well of found something he was above average at doing. (Even Sponge Foot Church hit the target occasionally for us and he was a below average marksman, anyone can get lucky now and again). His the choice of rifle with those sites dialled in is quite a deadly weapon, stating the obvious its what they are made to do. He choose the correct tool for the job. First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible. If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
Let’s say he was a good shot. In that 8.3 seconds he needed to take aim through a telescopic site. Fire a round, remove his eye from the target, using a lever action to reload. Re acquire the target through the site, fire a second round and then repeat the above. We know that two of those rounds were pretty accurate on a receding moving target and without intending to be crass the size of a medium pumpkin. All entirely possible but probably not that likely. Add in the other, admittedly conspiratorial background stuff and I think it’s not as clear cut and dried as some would have us think.
The telescopic lense was either not configured or just straight up not there and appears later. There is also a cop who claims he first found a Remington (I think) before it is later changed to a Carcano.
It should also be noted that marksmanship is a skill that requires practice. As best we can tell, Oswald didn't fire a gun after leaving the Marines in '59 until he shoots the President. Marina Oswald then says he was shooting at leaves in the park which seems...I mean nonsensical. There's a guy at a shooting range who shoots another guy's target then says he was pretending he was shooting at Kennedy who says his name was Oswald. Totally normal, despite the fact that Oswald was in New Orleans at the time.
The pictures of him holding a rifle in his back yard shows the strap hanging from the bottom of the gun. The rifle held up by Dallas police on the 22nd Nov have the strap attached to the side.
Just reviving this thread as Wednesday will be the 60th anniversary of JFK's assassination and I've been dragged back into the murky depths of the conspiracy.
Having spent the past week or so watching various YouTube videos I'm once again of the mindset that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone & probably wasn't even on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Store Depositary on that fateful day.
Too many incidents to go into now (Officer Tippett having been shot by 2 guns, neither being the one found on Oswald 10 mins later; witnesses saying Oswald was on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting; testimony changed in the Warren Report etc etc) but anyone still convinced it was a cut & dried case should watch the C5 programme that was on last night about the Doctors at Parkland hospital who treated JFK 60 years ago. All the ones still alive contest the "evidence" given to the Warren Commission & the autopsy done at the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 8pm that evening. Pure hokum.
Sorry I think our messages probably crossed in cyberspace as I didn't see you recommend the doc. My girlfriend is going over to a friend's house tonight so I will finally have some time to watch it.
Golfie forgive me if I've recommended this to you before, but I really think you would like JFK and the Unspeakable. And also Jim Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins."
Unfortunately because YouTube has started cracking down on conspiracy theory stuff (QAnon ruins everything), it's hard to find some of his best work where he spends five hours dissecting the autopsy report. He also spoke to Parkland doctors as part of that
Just reviving this thread as Wednesday will be the 60th anniversary of JFK's assassination and I've been dragged back into the murky depths of the conspiracy.
Having spent the past week or so watching various YouTube videos I'm once again of the mindset that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone & probably wasn't even on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Store Depositary on that fateful day.
Too many incidents to go into now (Officer Tippett having been shot by 2 guns, neither being the one found on Oswald 10 mins later; witnesses saying Oswald was on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting; testimony changed in the Warren Report etc etc) but anyone still convinced it was a cut & dried case should watch the C5 programme that was on last night about the Doctors at Parkland hospital who treated JFK 60 years ago. All the ones still alive contest the "evidence" given to the Warren Commission & the autopsy done at the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 8pm that evening. Pure hokum.
Sorry I think our messages probably crossed in cyberspace as I didn't see you recommend the doc. My girlfriend is going over to a friend's house tonight so I will finally have some time to watch it.
Golfie forgive me if I've recommended this to you before, but I really think you would like JFK and the Unspeakable. And also Jim Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins."
Unfortunately because YouTube has started cracking down on conspiracy theory stuff (QAnon ruins everything), it's hard to find some of his best work where he spends five hours dissecting the autopsy report. He also spoke to Parkland doctors as part of that
Hold on, so that old boy is saying that the Zapruder film had been doctored to make it fuzzier? Surely it is pretty straight forward to replicate the film by using the same camera and film stock?
Comments
The Grassy Knoll, Part 1: Frame 313
Kennedy was shot twice: first through the neck (by the bullet that went on to pierce Connally), then in the head. The Zapruder film captured this shot too, in Frame 313. The image was deemed so horrifying that it was excised from public viewings of the film until 1975, when President Gerald Ford (who’d served on the Warren Commission) ordered it released. I remember watching the fully restored film on TV. It really was horrifying. You saw the top of President Kennedy’s head literally blown off. But it was creepy for another reason: the blown-off piece of his head blew backward. In other words, it looked like that fatal bullet was fired not from behind Kennedy, like the first bullet, but from in front of him. Were there two gunmen after all—Oswald in the book depository and someone else perched in the area known as the “grassy knoll”?
I went back to the library and scoured the Warren hearings. There I found neurologists testifying that a nerve ending can explode when hit by a bullet and that the two trajectories—where the bullet came from and which way the nerve fragments fly—are not necessarily related. Experiments from the 1940s, in which bullets were fired into the heads of live goats, revealed this fact. So, the evidence of Frame 313 was at least ambiguous; it said nothing, one way or the other, about the plausibility of a second-gunman theory.
However, in 1975, CBS News, which was doing a documentary on the assassination, hired a tech firm to conduct a high-resolution analysis of the Zapruder film, using instruments that hadn’t existed in the Warren Commission’s day. The firm discovered that, on Frame 312, Kennedy’s head slammed a tiny bit forward, and much more quickly than it jolted backward an instant later on Frame 313. The implication: The bullet hit his head from behind, pushing him forward, then a nerve exploded, which happened to push him backward.
I tend to believe LHO was a nut job who was adequately trained with a rifle and did the deed. America has one hell of a history with assassins, presidents, guns, nut jobs and a large number of people who for whatever reason live in a make believe world of conspiracy theories. I do like a conspiracy theory and I sure there are some to a more or lesser degree but usually they can be taken apart easily but with JFK's it is harder for lots of real reasons.
I'm not sure its physically possible..."
This is why conspiracy theories are nonsense...people make stuff up and believe experts are wrong because its more interesting to ignore the fact that most of the time what happened is what happened:-
- An anti capitalist American with a gun killed JFK.
- Armstrong walked on the moon.
- 19 fundamentalists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings.
... this appeared in today's Mirror.
He was last seen at the latest 20 mins before the shooting, not 5. Makes sense he wouldn't half around there for hours vwfiee etc.
He was seen 5 minutes afterwards, not 30 seconds.
He didn’t sprint anywhere, he got on the bus/buses.
The cinema thing, a bloke presumably walking along, but then seeing a police car, and quickly ducking into a building is definitely suspicious, its not like he stood queuing for a ticket and a bag of Revels.
And if you read what I wrote above I said he walked back to his lodgings, which were about a mile away. I don't believe he caught any buses. But then, no one saw him, either going back to his lodgings or on his way to the cinema. There were a couple of witnesses to the shooting of Officer Tippett but none could pick out Oswald later.
As I've said, I have no idea what the truth is, but as someone has just posted above, getting off 3 shots in less than 9 seconds with a bolt-action rifle, and under extreme pressure is some going.
My view is that LHO didn't fire the fatal shot. He was probably aware an attempt on JFK's life was going to take place, and maybe he thought he was going to be part of it - but he didn't kill him. Just the facts of how many shots hit JFK, the time it took, and the head jerking backwards (and I don't take into account a couple of random "experts" saying how there is a slight trigger forwards & nerves in his head made JFK's head then snap backwards) tells me there were more than 1 shooter.
First shot I would think its safe to assume he could hit the target as he was lined up ready and then its 8.3 seconds for the next two. May be he got lucky with the next two, which I don't think. No one knows his state of mind when taking the shots and what pressure he felt he was under, it could be he was cool as a cucumber and a perfect killer, which I would think quite possible.
If there was more than one shooter I would have expected more than three shots, when you do such a deed its always best to get a few rounds off which I think was LHOs method therefore only three rounds.
A moving target yes but a moving target going from right to left as apposed to foreground to background is different and the shooting position was not random it was chosen, advantage gunman. And using a bolt action is not the action as you describe, most of that is instinctive through training and very quick. Also when shooting you don't necessarily aim for the head, the biggest mass is best, you can be a foot out the result will eventually be the same, in fact a hit anywhere with that gun would probably be a kill and the rifle was powerful enough for at least one round injured another after it exited JFK, I think that was the so called magic bullet.
If you believe the Warren Commission then the magic bullet hit both JFK and Connolly and was found on a stretcher at Parkland hospital in a pretty pristine condition. We know this as there was a chain of evidence, with police officers marking items that they found & bagged.
The 3rd bullet was the "kill" shot.
However, witnesses say they heard more than 3 shots, and quite a few people ran towards the grassy knoll - led by policeman & secret servicemen.
There's a reason for that...
I have seen countless documentaries & there are many on YouTube as well by well respected & renowned authors on the subject.
I have yet to see one comprehensively come out either pro or against the rifle. Many "expert" marksman have tried and the results are inconclusive. Some manage it but many don't. Also there is the factor of the tree. Did it hinder Oswald or didnt it. Did a bullet hit the traffic lights or not ? There is so much that is still unknown about the actual shots & all that we can go on is a grainy, wobbly cinefilm that almost misses the actual shots.
Having spent the past week or so watching various YouTube videos I'm once again of the mindset that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone & probably wasn't even on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Store Depositary on that fateful day.
Too many incidents to go into now (Officer Tippett having been shot by 2 guns, neither being the one found on Oswald 10 mins later; witnesses saying Oswald was on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting; testimony changed in the Warren Report etc etc) but anyone still convinced it was a cut & dried case should watch the C5 programme that was on last night about the Doctors at Parkland hospital who treated JFK 60 years ago. All the ones still alive contest the "evidence" given to the Warren Commission & the autopsy done at the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 8pm that evening. Pure hokum.
- It should be noted that the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) found in 1977 (I think) that JFK was "likely assassinated as part of a conspiracy." While I think their conclusion is correct (though I would take out the "likely"), the reason they go on, the recording from a motorcycle officer at the scene, is not the most reliable. There are a litany of eye witnesses who are far more reliable, not to mention the autopsy evidence (I will link to Doug Horne's stuff if people are interested), and that's before we get into multiple confessions to a variety of things.
- More people have confessed to killing JFK than could have actually killed JFK. The short list of this includes various mafia figures, James Files, Charles Harrison (Woody's dad who later recanted), Lucien Sarti (who I think is the most compelling), and another member of the French Connection whose name is similar to Sarti's and who I always get mixes up with. There is also Charles Rogers, the Air Force guy whose name I can never remember, and various others.
- As far as Oswald being a KGB agent, he wasn't. Simple. He was a false defector. He was so obviously a false defector that despite him offering intelligence on the U2, the KGB was like "yeah uh ok you seem totally normal why don't you go hang out in Minsk? Don't call us, we'll call you." There were two stories from two different "defectors" to the US in the '70s, but every bit of evidence suggests the Soviets didn't know what to do with or make of Oswald, so they just kind of gave him a sweet factory job on a better wage than anyone and then let him peace out with his Russian wife and baby. Oswald as false defector is backed up by documents in which Hoover in '59 says someone might be using his identity, by the fact that there were people in Dallas and I believe Nola using his identity while he was in the Soviet Union, and by the fact that he got a hardship discharge from the Marines, somehow got into the USSR via Finland (how would he have known to do that?), and then despite renouncing his citizenship, the State Department gave him money to come back with his Russian wife and baby which was almost unheard of at the time.
- Oh, and he supposedly learned Russian "from reading books" despite no one really remembering him reading Russian books. Or that Russian is very hard to learn. Or that he was reported to speak Russian with a Baltic accent.
There's a lot more. I'm pretty sure I've talked about the two Oswalds (Harvey and Lee) theory on here, as well as my general belief that the assassination on the ground was carried out by a paramilitary group funded by the CIA called Alpha 66.There's a documentary that just came out (I believe on Amazon here in the States) called "What the Doctor's Saw" and it reiterates what has been known for decades that the injuries the Parkland Hospital doctors treated bear absolutely no resemblance to the autopsy pictures in the Warren Report. Doug Horne, a member of the ARRB goes into a lot of detail about why he believes that to be the case, but at best it was an awful autopsy done poorly as a way of covering up the massive head wound as ordered by a mysterious General who claimed to be in charge in the autopsy room (who maaaaay have been Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay) and at most the autopsy pictures were doctored or the body was altered after it left Parkland, or most likely both.
I highly recommend JFK and the Unspeakable. I think it gives a good outline of who did it, and also the larger circumstances under which the assassination was carried out.
It should also be noted that marksmanship is a skill that requires practice. As best we can tell, Oswald didn't fire a gun after leaving the Marines in '59 until he shoots the President. Marina Oswald then says he was shooting at leaves in the park which seems...I mean nonsensical. There's a guy at a shooting range who shoots another guy's target then says he was pretending he was shooting at Kennedy who says his name was Oswald. Totally normal, despite the fact that Oswald was in New Orleans at the time.
Golfie forgive me if I've recommended this to you before, but I really think you would like JFK and the Unspeakable. And also Jim Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins."
Here is Douglas Horne on the Zapruder film which might have been edited.
Unfortunately because YouTube has started cracking down on conspiracy theory stuff (QAnon ruins everything), it's hard to find some of his best work where he spends five hours dissecting the autopsy report. He also spoke to Parkland doctors as part of that