I don't think there's much room for doubt that legendary DJ John Peel was the mystery accomplice. We know that he was working in Dallas at the time and that he was photographed in the same room as Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald on the very day of the assassination. We also know that he had previously met John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, perhaps revealing an unhealthy interest in matters presidential. Peel held several positions whilst in Dallas, including that of insurance salesman. This betraying the sociopathic nature needed for involvement in a dastardly plot as well as as providing a motive in that he had the ability to set up insurance accounts in other peoples' names. His earlier career in The Royal Artillery meant that he was no stranger to highly powerful and accurate weaponry. As a known scooter rider, he would have had the ability to quickly and quietly slip through any crowds or cordons on the day of the event.
Peel has also been less than honest with the authorities about his presence on the day. When questioned by Dallas Police he claimed to be working for the Liverpool Echo, something he has since confessed was not true. This duplicity a) blows a hole in his story and b) leaves major question marks about the character of the man. After the assassination, Peel moved back to the UK, presumably in the hope of avoiding questions by the US authorities. On his arrival in London he took employment with the BBC, an institution he remained with for thirty-seven years until his death in 2004. Just think about the cover ups of malfeasance by employees of that organisation at the time, and it becomes plain why someone like Peel would feel so comfortable that his secret would remain safe all the time he was in the employ of Auntie. In his lifetime Peel underwent at least two changes of name, classic behaviour from a person unwilling for the public to know his true identity, then in 1998 he received an OBE from the Prince of Wales (now King Charles), fuelling speculation of connections between the Kennedy and Spencer assassinations. It is ironic than a man who spent some six years presenting a programme called Home Truths had a few home truths of his own just waiting to come out.
All of the facts in the above story are absolutely true. Just in case anyone is wondering though, my interpretation of them is complete nonsense. It is interesting though that Peel was there on the day. I can recommend the little video on the following web page: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-peel-met-john-f-kennedy/
I don't think there's much room for doubt that legendary DJ John Peel was the mystery accomplice. We know that he was working in Dallas at the time and that he was photographed in the same room as Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald on the very day of the assassination. We also know that he had previously met John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, perhaps revealing an unhealthy interest in matters presidential. Peel held several positions whilst in Dallas, including that of insurance salesman. This betraying the sociopathic nature needed for involvement in a dastardly plot as well as as providing a motive in that he had the ability to set up insurance accounts in other peoples' names. His earlier career in The Royal Artillery meant that he was no stranger to highly powerful and accurate weaponry. As a known scooter rider, he would have had the ability to quickly and quietly slip through any crowds or cordons on the day of the event.
Peel has also been less than honest with the authorities about his presence on the day. When questioned by Dallas Police he claimed to be working for the Liverpool Echo, something he has since confessed was not true. This duplicity a) blows a hole in his story and b) leaves major question marks about the character of the man. After the assassination, Peel moved back to the UK, presumably in the hope of avoiding questions by the US authorities. On his arrival in London he took employment with the BBC, an institution he remained with for thirty-seven years until his death in 2004. Just think about the cover ups of malfeasance by employees of that organisation at the time, and it becomes plain why someone like Peel would feel so comfortable that his secret would remain safe all the time he was in the employ of Auntie. In his lifetime Peel underwent at least two changes of name, classic behaviour from a person unwilling for the public to know his true identity, then in 1998 he received an OBE from the Prince of Wales (now King Charles), fuelling speculation of connections between the Kennedy and Spencer assassinations. It is ironic than a man who spent some six years presenting a programme called Home Truths and a few home truths of his own just waiting to come out.
All of the facts in the above story are absolutely true. Just in case anyone is wondering though, my interpretation of them is complete nonsense. It is interesting though that Peel was there on the day. I can recommend the little video on the following web page: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-peel-met-john-f-kennedy/
Charles is up to his neck in it as well. I’m not sure I’m surprised, given his dad was a lizard.
Just reviving this thread as Wednesday will be the 60th anniversary of JFK's assassination and I've been dragged back into the murky depths of the conspiracy.
Having spent the past week or so watching various YouTube videos I'm once again of the mindset that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone & probably wasn't even on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Store Depositary on that fateful day.
Too many incidents to go into now (Officer Tippett having been shot by 2 guns, neither being the one found on Oswald 10 mins later; witnesses saying Oswald was on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting; testimony changed in the Warren Report etc etc) but anyone still convinced it was a cut & dried case should watch the C5 programme that was on last night about the Doctors at Parkland hospital who treated JFK 60 years ago. All the ones still alive contest the "evidence" given to the Warren Commission & the autopsy done at the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 8pm that evening. Pure hokum.
Sorry I think our messages probably crossed in cyberspace as I didn't see you recommend the doc. My girlfriend is going over to a friend's house tonight so I will finally have some time to watch it.
Golfie forgive me if I've recommended this to you before, but I really think you would like JFK and the Unspeakable. And also Jim Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins."
Unfortunately because YouTube has started cracking down on conspiracy theory stuff (QAnon ruins everything), it's hard to find some of his best work where he spends five hours dissecting the autopsy report. He also spoke to Parkland doctors as part of that
Hold on, so that old boy is saying that the Zapruder film had been doctored to make it fuzzier? Surely it is pretty straight forward to replicate the film by using the same camera and film stock?
I'll go back and re-watch that video, but the way I remember it is he's saying that parts of the Z film around 313 are altered and I believe it is then duplicated which lessens the quality. I'd always assumed that the duplication process lessened the quality as being the nature of the technology back then, but I might either be wrong about that or misremembering. Jimmy I know film is your thing, was it possible to easily copy film back in 1963?
I will say, I am not the most convinced by this story. It's compelling both because of this interview, but also because eye witnesses say they saw the limo come to a near or complete stop, and that's when the headshot happened. That would explain why Kennedy's head moves forward at frame 309 (I think) and then back and to the left at 313. But when you're talking about such fine, fine details decades later, even the slightest bit of false memory would of course be understandable.
There are other potential explanations for the lurch forward then head explosion, including that he is hit twice near simultaneously, the first possibly being the back wound that ends up being pretty shallow (this is used as the "entry wound" for the magic bullet theory), and then the second followed almost simultaneously with the head shot from in front of him. There are others who think he's hit in the head twice, which is possible, especially if the headshot from the front is a frangible/exploding munition of some kind, you would basically see the entry wound to the back of the head destroyed. Either way I think the shot from the rear probably comes from the Dal-Tex building which was next to the book depository.
I don't think there's much room for doubt that legendary DJ John Peel was the mystery accomplice. We know that he was working in Dallas at the time and that he was photographed in the same room as Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald on the very day of the assassination. We also know that he had previously met John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, perhaps revealing an unhealthy interest in matters presidential. Peel held several positions whilst in Dallas, including that of insurance salesman. This betraying the sociopathic nature needed for involvement in a dastardly plot as well as as providing a motive in that he had the ability to set up insurance accounts in other peoples' names. His earlier career in The Royal Artillery meant that he was no stranger to highly powerful and accurate weaponry. As a known scooter rider, he would have had the ability to quickly and quietly slip through any crowds or cordons on the day of the event.
Peel has also been less than honest with the authorities about his presence on the day. When questioned by Dallas Police he claimed to be working for the Liverpool Echo, something he has since confessed was not true. This duplicity a) blows a hole in his story and b) leaves major question marks about the character of the man. After the assassination, Peel moved back to the UK, presumably in the hope of avoiding questions by the US authorities. On his arrival in London he took employment with the BBC, an institution he remained with for thirty-seven years until his death in 2004. Just think about the cover ups of malfeasance by employees of that organisation at the time, and it becomes plain why someone like Peel would feel so comfortable that his secret would remain safe all the time he was in the employ of Auntie. In his lifetime Peel underwent at least two changes of name, classic behaviour from a person unwilling for the public to know his true identity, then in 1998 he received an OBE from the Prince of Wales (now King Charles), fuelling speculation of connections between the Kennedy and Spencer assassinations. It is ironic than a man who spent some six years presenting a programme called Home Truths and a few home truths of his own just waiting to come out.
All of the facts in the above story are absolutely true. Just in case anyone is wondering though, my interpretation of them is complete nonsense. It is interesting though that Peel was there on the day. I can recommend the little video on the following web page: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-peel-met-john-f-kennedy/
That's wild, I don't think I knew that. I know Peel because of Peel sessions. A lot of bands I love have done them down the years. The "known scooter writer" is a great line.
I always thought JFK was killed by the mafia but having recently watched JFK the film directed by Oliver Stone, I thought the speculations suggested in it were quite interesting and looked like there was some truth in it. Amazing film and one of the greatest I've ever seen.
Whatever the truth is, one thing I'm sure that we won't debate on is that it simply couldn't be a one man job. Oswald wasn't the only man operating it.
By the way, I really miss the old HoC section and the interesting discussions there. 😆
I always thought JFK was killed by the mafia but having recently watched JFK the film directed by Oliver Stone, I thought the speculations suggested in it were quite interesting and looked like there was some truth in it. Amazing film and one of the greatest I've ever seen.
Whatever the truth is, one thing I'm sure that we won't debate on is that it simply couldn't be a one man job. Oswald wasn't the only man operating it.
By the way, I really miss the old HoC section and the interesting discussions there. 😆
I think it’s inconceivable that LHO acted alone and I genuinely think there is room for doubt he acted at all.
I had the Oliver stone documentary on as back ground noise when I was working, I wished I watched it all properly.
my view is that there was definitely more than one shooters and there is doubt as to whether LHO acted at all. He didn't remember having the photos taken of him with the gun.
the bit I only caught partly was the brain and autopsy photos. Was it suggested that it wasn't Kennedys brain?
I had the Oliver stone documentary on as back ground noise when I was working, I wished I watched it all properly.
my view is that there was definitely more than one shooters and there is doubt as to whether LHO acted at all. He didn't remember having the photos taken of him with the gun.
the bit I only caught partly was the brain and autopsy photos. Was it suggested that it wasn't Kennedys brain?
In the Oliver Stone film it was said that Kennedy's brain, that had been kept for "posterity", had gone missing from the Archives. Not sure how true that was or if its now been "found".
According to the Doctors at Parkland Hospital who operated on Kennedy the autopsy performed on Kennedy back at Bethesda Naval Hospital was a "stich up" job and the photos taken there don't bear resemblance to the state of Kennedy when he left Parkland Hospital. They say it looked doctored to show that the damage from the last bullet was not as bad as it was & that other "wounds" were manufactured to show shots coming from the rear rather than the front.
I always thought JFK was killed by the mafia but having recently watched JFK the film directed by Oliver Stone, I thought the speculations suggested in it were quite interesting and looked like there was some truth in it. Amazing film and one of the greatest I've ever seen.
Whatever the truth is, one thing I'm sure that we won't debate on is that it simply couldn't be a one man job. Oswald wasn't the only man operating it.
By the way, I really miss the old HoC section and the interesting discussions there. 😆
I think it’s inconceivable that LHO acted alone and I genuinely think there is room for doubt he acted at all.
This. There are testimonies from 2 or 3 witnesses that put Oswald on the 2nd floor minutes before the shooting & one witness who was on the 6th floor 10 mins beforehand who said he saw no one else there. Then there are witnesses who were on the staircase within a minute of the shooting who never saw him coming down the stairs & he was again seen on the 2nd floor 90 seconds afterwards by a Policeman.
If all this is to believed then Kennedy must have been the most unluckiest bloke ever in that he could be shot by someone who was only in position minutes before the cavalcade went past & then quick & silent as a mouse to run down 4 flights of stairs without being seen or heard. And supposedly the cavalcade was running late & was due at the Trade Mart at 12.30, and thus if running on time Oswald would have been too late.
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
That's like asking someone to name with certainty who Jack the Ripper was.
people are questioning what happened based by evidence put in front of them, like LHO firing 3 rounds in 8 seconds despite better marksmen not being able to do so. Questioning evidence like that doesn't necessarily answer questions on what may have actually happened.
as for who would benefit, the CIA, mafia, Russia theories have all been presented previously on this thread
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
I think that there was at least another shooter behind the grassy knoll. There was the railway yard behind the fence & they could easily have a car parked there & jumped into it and speed off. One was spotted by Lee Bowers who worked for the railway line & his control box overlooked the railway yards. Whether this was the CIA or the Mafia I have no idea. More likely the CIA seeing as Oswald was one of theirs and that the Mafia couldn't control the narrative like the CIA could.
The why is a whole different ballgame. Payback for the Bay of Pigs maybe ? But probably something bigger than that.
As with so many events there is enough noise for people to seize on many an inconsistency. Do such inconsistencies prove or disprove a conspiracy? Rarely. It would hardly be the first or last example of simple gross incompetence of the US Secret Service and Intelligence.
Let us be honest it was a hugely embarrassing failure by Federal and State Security Services.
Having lived in Dallas for a decade « local gossip » refers at the time to some disquiet of even having the open topped Presidential Parade through a gun culture southern state in the first place. Few locally accept the theory of the lone gunman but then they have a very unhealthy disrespect for the offices of the Federal Government.
I suggest over the intervening decades a large minority hold a similar scepticism.
Could LHO have been the lone gunman? On any given day it’s not impossible ….but if anyone were intent on JFKs demise why would you leave an open air parade opportunity to chance?
I am not a believer in many conspiracies but despite JFKs « man for the people » popularity (beyond his philandering) there were noted « questionable » connections to his political rise to the top. In the event I am not sure his brother (or indeed his father) did much to ease the tensions with such connections.
I did find the discrepancies between the notes & accounts of the gun wound specialist independent Trauma Surgeons of the highly respected Parkland Hospital ( views they steadfastly stood by over the decades) and those of the alleged inexperienced Navy Miltary unit used in the Bethesda Post Mortem process extremely disquieting.
The initial extremely graphic photos taken in Parkland Hospital glaringly reveal the nature of the extensive injuries where there is a gaping wound at the back of his head suggesting the damage created by a projectile exiting the body.
In contravention of state law the corpse of JFK was forcibly removed from Dallas by the FBI within hours of his death. Whatever the machinations which drove the assassination there was only one arm of government intent on ham fisted control of the agenda upon his death.
Whether their motivation was driven by pure embarrassment or something more sinister can but be speculation. Allegedly conspicuous by their absence in the security and coverage of his path through the city the corridors of Parkland Hospital and the Bethesda Post Mortem facility were awash with Security services personnel.
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
1) First and foremost the Intelligence Community (mainly but not only the CIA). They felt betrayed by Kennedy not providing air support for the Bay of Pigs, and then firing Dulles and Bissell. They were mad he didn't invade Cuba during the Missile Crisis. After the Bay of Pigs JFK said he "wanted to splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." There were a lot of very powerful people who'd spent the last 10-15 years building up paramilitary groups and overseeing coups who were not going to let that happen.
They were also concerned he would normalize relations with Cuba (very possible), he would end involvement in southeast Asian (very possible), and that he would try to end the Cold War in his second term (far more speculative, but I would say it was possible). Cuba, SE Asia, and the general parapolitics of the time were what made these men, and made them king makers. They weren't going to stop. They had trained assassination teams (ZRIFLE) training to execute Castro. Is it that hard to turn that inward?
2) The Mafia--while I believe they played an ancillary role in the assassination, they did benefit by Bobby Kennedy not going after them anymore. Bobby kind of "made his bones" on the McClellan Committee going after organized crime and particularly Jimmy Hoffa. He continued that as AG. That stopped when Jack was shot.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, the CIA and mafia worked together very closely throughout the 50s, so there is a lot of overlap between the two groups. Jack Ruby probably lies at the intersection of those two groups, he had a kind of "organized crime hanger on" background and gets into gun running into Cuba with the CIA.
3) What I'll broadly call "Bircherites" (members of the Johnb Birch society): aka Fascists. They genuinely believed Kennedy was a Communist who was going to turn the US into a Communist state. There is a lot of overlap between them and group 1. This might be where Tippit comes from (he was a staunch racist, though how and why he was involved I have no clue). This, along with group one, is probably where anyone with the Dallas PD and Secret Service who were involved might fall, though they also might fall under group one as well given the Mayor of Dallas was a CIA asset with the last name Bissell (brother of Richard Bissell).
There's also "Captains of industry" who Kennedy was threatening to go after for labor abuses (he'd already had Bobby go after US Steel). LBJ obviously had quite a bit to gain. Members of the Secret Service hated Kennedy regardless of whether they were willing participants or not. Richard Nixon hated the Kennedys. George H.W. Bush couldn't remember where he was on 11/22/63 for decades until Babs provided him with a cover story (He definitely falls under section 1). And so on.
Who would not benefit: 1) Castro. Kennedy had a secret envoy in Cuba at the time of his death to feel out Fidel about normalizing relations. Fidel sort of weirdly liked the Kennedys in some ways. In the last few months of his life Jack with the help of Bobby started putting out back channel feelers to Cuba. 2) Khrushchev. This is not to say that others within the Kremlin or KGB didn't benefit, but Khrushchev and Kennedy had developed a back channel in the wake of the Missile Crisis. I'm nowhere near convinced that Kennedy would have ended the Cold War in his second term, which is a very kind of Oliver Stone claim, but relations with the Soviet Union were definitely starting to thaw in the last few months before Dallas.
I had the Oliver stone documentary on as back ground noise when I was working, I wished I watched it all properly.
my view is that there was definitely more than one shooters and there is doubt as to whether LHO acted at all. He didn't remember having the photos taken of him with the gun.
the bit I only caught partly was the brain and autopsy photos. Was it suggested that it wasn't Kennedys brain?
In the Oliver Stone film it was said that Kennedy's brain, that had been kept for "posterity", had gone missing from the Archives. Not sure how true that was or if its now been "found".
According to the Doctors at Parkland Hospital who operated on Kennedy the autopsy performed on Kennedy back at Bethesda Naval Hospital was a "stich up" job and the photos taken there don't bear resemblance to the state of Kennedy when he left Parkland Hospital. They say it looked doctored to show that the damage from the last bullet was not as bad as it was & that other "wounds" were manufactured to show shots coming from the rear rather than the front.
I watched "JFK: What the Doctors Saw" last night and they go into this some. They don't get into what parts of the body were tampered with or how the autopsy X-Rays might have been doctored or the pictures staged, but that is a theory that is touched on.
As for the brain going missing--that is true. But I believe that the brain goes missing when some evidence is turned over to the Kennedy family, and then they return some of it. I can't remember exactly how that all transpires. But it has also long been rumored that they buried his brain when they buried Bobby. They're staunch Catholics, so the body stuff matters a lot. The latter part of this is rumor, but the actual brain "Disappearing" might have a more innocent explanation than what some assume.
The most important part is that the autopsy pictures look nothing like what the doctors at Parkland saw or the wounds we can clearly see in the Z film. There are bits of head and brain that are found on the street the next day, there's bits of brain on the backseat of the limo, Jackie had some in her hand, there's some on her. And the back and side of the head look almost perfectly intact in the autopsy pictures.
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
1) First and foremost the Intelligence Community (mainly but not only the CIA). They felt betrayed by Kennedy not providing air support for the Bay of Pigs, and then firing Dulles and Bissell. They were mad he didn't invade Cuba during the Missile Crisis. After the Bay of Pigs JFK said he "wanted to splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." There were a lot of very powerful people who'd spent the last 10-15 years building up paramilitary groups and overseeing coups who were not going to let that happen.
They were also concerned he would normalize relations with Cuba (very possible), he would end involvement in southeast Asian (very possible), and that he would try to end the Cold War in his second term (far more speculative, but I would say it was possible). Cuba, SE Asia, and the general parapolitics of the time were what made these men, and made them king makers. They weren't going to stop. They had trained assassination teams (ZRIFLE) training to execute Castro. Is it that hard to turn that inward?
2) The Mafia--while I believe they played an ancillary role in the assassination, they did benefit by Bobby Kennedy not going after them anymore. Bobby kind of "made his bones" on the McClellan Committee going after organized crime and particularly Jimmy Hoffa. He continued that as AG. That stopped when Jack was shot.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, the CIA and mafia worked together very closely throughout the 50s, so there is a lot of overlap between the two groups. Jack Ruby probably lies at the intersection of those two groups, he had a kind of "organized crime hanger on" background and gets into gun running into Cuba with the CIA.
3) What I'll broadly call "Bircherites" (members of the Johnb Birch society): aka Fascists. They genuinely believed Kennedy was a Communist who was going to turn the US into a Communist state. There is a lot of overlap between them and group 1. This might be where Tippit comes from (he was a staunch racist, though how and why he was involved I have no clue). This, along with group one, is probably where anyone with the Dallas PD and Secret Service who were involved might fall, though they also might fall under group one as well given the Mayor of Dallas was a CIA asset with the last name Bissell (brother of Richard Bissell).
There's also "Captains of industry" who Kennedy was threatening to go after for labor abuses (he'd already had Bobby go after US Steel). LBJ obviously had quite a bit to gain. Members of the Secret Service hated Kennedy regardless of whether they were willing participants or not. Richard Nixon hated the Kennedys. George H.W. Bush couldn't remember where he was on 11/22/63 for decades until Babs provided him with a cover story (He definitely falls under section 1). And so on.
Who would not benefit: 1) Castro. Kennedy had a secret envoy in Cuba at the time of his death to feel out Fidel about normalizing relations. Fidel sort of weirdly liked the Kennedys in some ways. In the last few months of his life Jack with the help of Bobby started putting out back channel feelers to Cuba. 2) Khrushchev. This is not to say that others within the Kremlin or KGB didn't benefit, but Khrushchev and Kennedy had developed a back channel in the wake of the Missile Crisis. I'm nowhere near convinced that Kennedy would have ended the Cold War in his second term, which is a very kind of Oliver Stone claim, but relations with the Soviet Union were definitely starting to thaw in the last few months before Dallas.
Would those people who don't believe that JFK was shot by LHO like to propose what did actually happen? And to illustrate cui bono, ie who would benefit from such a scenario?
1) First and foremost the Intelligence Community (mainly but not only the CIA). They felt betrayed by Kennedy not providing air support for the Bay of Pigs, and then firing Dulles and Bissell. They were mad he didn't invade Cuba during the Missile Crisis. After the Bay of Pigs JFK said he "wanted to splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." There were a lot of very powerful people who'd spent the last 10-15 years building up paramilitary groups and overseeing coups who were not going to let that happen.
They were also concerned he would normalize relations with Cuba (very possible), he would end involvement in southeast Asian (very possible), and that he would try to end the Cold War in his second term (far more speculative, but I would say it was possible). Cuba, SE Asia, and the general parapolitics of the time were what made these men, and made them king makers. They weren't going to stop. They had trained assassination teams (ZRIFLE) training to execute Castro. Is it that hard to turn that inward?
2) The Mafia--while I believe they played an ancillary role in the assassination, they did benefit by Bobby Kennedy not going after them anymore. Bobby kind of "made his bones" on the McClellan Committee going after organized crime and particularly Jimmy Hoffa. He continued that as AG. That stopped when Jack was shot.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, the CIA and mafia worked together very closely throughout the 50s, so there is a lot of overlap between the two groups. Jack Ruby probably lies at the intersection of those two groups, he had a kind of "organized crime hanger on" background and gets into gun running into Cuba with the CIA.
3) What I'll broadly call "Bircherites" (members of the Johnb Birch society): aka Fascists. They genuinely believed Kennedy was a Communist who was going to turn the US into a Communist state. There is a lot of overlap between them and group 1. This might be where Tippit comes from (he was a staunch racist, though how and why he was involved I have no clue). This, along with group one, is probably where anyone with the Dallas PD and Secret Service who were involved might fall, though they also might fall under group one as well given the Mayor of Dallas was a CIA asset with the last name Bissell (brother of Richard Bissell).
There's also "Captains of industry" who Kennedy was threatening to go after for labor abuses (he'd already had Bobby go after US Steel). LBJ obviously had quite a bit to gain. Members of the Secret Service hated Kennedy regardless of whether they were willing participants or not. Richard Nixon hated the Kennedys. George H.W. Bush couldn't remember where he was on 11/22/63 for decades until Babs provided him with a cover story (He definitely falls under section 1). And so on.
Who would not benefit: 1) Castro. Kennedy had a secret envoy in Cuba at the time of his death to feel out Fidel about normalizing relations. Fidel sort of weirdly liked the Kennedys in some ways. In the last few months of his life Jack with the help of Bobby started putting out back channel feelers to Cuba. 2) Khrushchev. This is not to say that others within the Kremlin or KGB didn't benefit, but Khrushchev and Kennedy had developed a back channel in the wake of the Missile Crisis. I'm nowhere near convinced that Kennedy would have ended the Cold War in his second term, which is a very kind of Oliver Stone claim, but relations with the Soviet Union were definitely starting to thaw in the last few months before Dallas.
Really enjoyed that, thanks.
I feel there is definitely more to what happened than the official explanation.
@SDAddick it’s 8mm film so I believe quality will drop with each copy generation. Maybe these days you could get an exact replica but I doubt you could in the 60s. I’d be really surprised if the original copy was lower quality than it would ordinarily have been, either back then or now (depending on how well it has been looked after and stored).
Personally, I don’t think LHO did it. Of all the questions Oliver Stone raised (and it was a total scattergun of a movie with a lot of disingenuous work on his part) I’ve never had anyone explain why he ignored an easy, head-on shot in favour of a much trickier execution. And then there's the bullet that bounced through two men and came out looking like this:
Just started the Rob Reiner podcast and it's pretty good. I just find with all this stuff, there's tons and tons of noise and hearsay and nothing proven. But more than enough to think, no way is it all out in the open. Still, I like and trust Reiner so I am easily swayed by him.
For what it's worth my own view is that while I very much doubt the "official" version is correct I've never really found any particular alternative that you could not poke similar holes in.
I doubt we'll ever know for sure but my own view is it wasn't necessarily any one group (be that FBI, organised crime of another) but more likely a rogue faction of one or more of those groups.
How much exactly Oswald was involved or not is something that we'll also never likely know but I am certainly sceptical of him being a lone gunman.
@SDAddick it’s 8mm film so I believe quality will drop with each copy generation. Maybe these days you could get an exact replica but I doubt you could in the 60s. I’d be really surprised if the original copy was lower quality than it would ordinarily have been, either back then or now (depending on how well it has been looked after and stored).
Personally, I don’t think LHO did it. Of all the questions Oliver Stone raised (and it was a total scattergun of a movie with a lot of disingenuous work on his part) I’ve never had anyone explain why he ignored an easy, head-on shot in favour of a much trickier execution. And then there's the bullet that bounced through two men and came out looking like this:
Just started the Rob Reiner podcast and it's pretty good. I just find with all this stuff, there's tons and tons of noise and hearsay and nothing proven. But more than enough to think, no way is it all out in the open. Still, I like and trust Reiner so I am easily swayed by him.
Interesting snippet that came out last week came from a Secret Service man who was in one of the cars that day. He's now saying that it was him that found the "magic bullet" and he put it on JFK's stretcher when in Trauma Room 1 whilst the doctors were trying to save him.
Thing is, it has always been the belief that the bullet was found on Governor Connolly's stretcher AND no one can ever remember seeing this Secret Service agent in the room at the time.
In the summer of 1963 I was a student hitchhiking round the Southern States of the USA ( yeah, I know - mad, but I had all the stupid fearlessness of youth). I met some amazing people and was treated with much kindness and generosity.I also met some weird people. One such was a guy who after a while claimed he was on his way to a Ku Klux Klan meeting. To prove this, he stopped the car and took a large case out of the car boot. He opened it up and showed me his robes and the headdress. During the rest of the journey he lectured me about the superiority of the white man and how he hated all the liberals from the north who were advocating racial equality. JFK came in for much abuse. Just before I got out of the car he assured me that the Klan would "settle our scores with that nigga lover". I thought it was all talk until November. And maybe it was all talk but that encounter made a lasting impression on me and has always made me sceptical of the official line about the assassination.
In the summer of 1963 I was a student hitchhiking round the Southern States of the USA ( yeah, I know - mad, but I had all the stupid fearlessness of youth). I met some amazing people and was treated with much kindness and generosity.I also met some weird people. One such was a guy who after a while claimed he was on his way to a Ku Klux Klan meeting. To prove this, he stopped the car and took a large case out of the car boot. He opened it up and showed me his robes and the headdress. During the rest of the journey he lectured me about the superiority of the white man and how he hated all the liberals from the north who were advocating racial equality. JFK came in for much abuse. Just before I got out of the car he assured me that the Klan would "settle our scores with that nigga lover". I thought it was all talk until November. And maybe it was all talk but that encounter made a lasting impression on me and has always made me sceptical of the official line about the assassination.
Thanks SDAddick and Grapevine for the above well reasoned post’s.
Whoever killed JFK, the bigger question is surely WHY ?
I’ve long thought on balance of probabilities it was likely the ‘ Military/Industrial complex ‘. They were gearing up for a massive war against North Vietnam.
There is now a massive weight of evidence discrediting the original conclusions. The latest I’ve just seen is The film of the Parkland Hospital doctor’s recollections- just watched it, is utterly damming.
The intelligence community of the time, with their heavy handed power were surely heavily involved. They couldn’t not be involved surely.
LHO - I now doubt he fired any shots at all.
This is the only “ Conspiracy Theory “ I-have any time for. Well - Princess Diana’s death - perhaps a small doubt.
Like many I can still remember where I was on hearing news of the assassination.
For what it's worth my own view is that while I very much doubt the "official" version is correct I've never really found any particular alternative that you could not poke similar holes in.
I doubt we'll ever know for sure but my own view is it wasn't necessarily any one group (be that FBI, organised crime of another) but more likely a rogue faction of one or more of those groups.
How much exactly Oswald was involved or not is something that we'll also never likely know but I am certainly sceptical of him being a lone gunman.
Been "friends" with Mike Yardley for years on Facebook. He's investigated the JFK assassination a few times and is a trusted authority on it, amongst other terrorism related topics -
A tracheotomy is an artificial opening to the windpipe (trachea) surgically created when breathing is comprised through the mouth or nose. Any trauma to the neck that included damage to the windpipe would preclude a tracheotomy intervention. I’ve not seen the post mortem photo Yardley mentions but the neck wound he mentions would have to be just below the thyroid cartilage. There is only a small area available for a tracheotomy procedure. I would have thought that the post mortem and emergency room notes would refer to a tracheostomy being inserted during the failed life saving attempt at the hospital. I don’t really see why there should be any confusion over what the neck wound actually is.
The doctors at Parkland who operated on JFK said 2 things about the throat wound.
1. They all though it was an entrance wound, not an exit one.
2. They performed the tracheotomy and used that wound as it was the easiest place to get a tube into JFK's throat.
They were surprised no one told the doctors who then did the autopsy at Bethesda about this. It was common knowledge in the trauma room at Parkland what was done & who did it.
The doctors at Parkland who operated on JFK said 2 things about the throat wound.
1. They all though it was an entrance wound, not an exit one.
2. They performed the tracheotomy and used that wound as it was the easiest place to get a tube into JFK's throat.
They were surprised no one told the doctors who then did the autopsy at Bethesda about this. It was common knowledge in the trauma room at Parkland what was done & who did it.
That means the trachea was damaged and already had a hole or was exposed so that the doctors at Parkland used the wound to access the trachea. Must have been a catastrophic wound. Thanks for clarification golfie. We now know the wound to the throat was caused by trauma not as a surgical intervention. Not sure why Yardley wasn’t aware of this.
The doctors at Parkland who operated on JFK said 2 things about the throat wound.
1. They all though it was an entrance wound, not an exit one.
2. They performed the tracheotomy and used that wound as it was the easiest place to get a tube into JFK's throat.
They were surprised no one told the doctors who then did the autopsy at Bethesda about this. It was common knowledge in the trauma room at Parkland what was done & who did it.
That means the trachea was damaged and already had a hole or was exposed so that the doctors at Parkland used the wound to access the trachea. Must have been a catastrophic wound. Thanks for clarification golfie. We now know the wound to the throat was caused by trauma not as a surgical intervention. Not sure why Yardley wasn’t aware of this.
He might be, but it then might not fit in with his narrative that Oswald acted alone.
The doctors at Parkland were there to save the President's life and not to find out why or where bullets struck.The Autopsy should have been performed there but was taken away, under severe duress, by the Secret Service to a naval base where they could have control over the autopsy.
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Peel has also been less than honest with the authorities about his presence on the day. When questioned by Dallas Police he claimed to be working for the Liverpool Echo, something he has since confessed was not true. This duplicity a) blows a hole in his story and b) leaves major question marks about the character of the man. After the assassination, Peel moved back to the UK, presumably in the hope of avoiding questions by the US authorities. On his arrival in London he took employment with the BBC, an institution he remained with for thirty-seven years until his death in 2004. Just think about the cover ups of malfeasance by employees of that organisation at the time, and it becomes plain why someone like Peel would feel so comfortable that his secret would remain safe all the time he was in the employ of Auntie. In his lifetime Peel underwent at least two changes of name, classic behaviour from a person unwilling for the public to know his true identity, then in 1998 he received an OBE from the Prince of Wales (now King Charles), fuelling speculation of connections between the Kennedy and Spencer assassinations. It is ironic than a man who spent some six years presenting a programme called Home Truths had a few home truths of his own just waiting to come out.
It is interesting though that Peel was there on the day. I can recommend the little video on the following web page: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-peel-met-john-f-kennedy/
I will say, I am not the most convinced by this story. It's compelling both because of this interview, but also because eye witnesses say they saw the limo come to a near or complete stop, and that's when the headshot happened. That would explain why Kennedy's head moves forward at frame 309 (I think) and then back and to the left at 313. But when you're talking about such fine, fine details decades later, even the slightest bit of false memory would of course be understandable.
There are other potential explanations for the lurch forward then head explosion, including that he is hit twice near simultaneously, the first possibly being the back wound that ends up being pretty shallow (this is used as the "entry wound" for the magic bullet theory), and then the second followed almost simultaneously with the head shot from in front of him. There are others who think he's hit in the head twice, which is possible, especially if the headshot from the front is a frangible/exploding munition of some kind, you would basically see the entry wound to the back of the head destroyed. Either way I think the shot from the rear probably comes from the Dal-Tex building which was next to the book depository.
Only known live recording of Explosions in the Sky's "A Long Spring" is from a Peel Session (yes I know I have too much time on my hands)
Whatever the truth is, one thing I'm sure that we won't debate on is that it simply couldn't be a one man job. Oswald wasn't the only man operating it.
By the way, I really miss the old HoC section and the interesting discussions there. 😆
my view is that there was definitely more than one shooters and there is doubt as to whether LHO acted at all. He didn't remember having the photos taken of him with the gun.
the bit I only caught partly was the brain and autopsy photos. Was it suggested that it wasn't Kennedys brain?
According to the Doctors at Parkland Hospital who operated on Kennedy the autopsy performed on Kennedy back at Bethesda Naval Hospital was a "stich up" job and the photos taken there don't bear resemblance to the state of Kennedy when he left Parkland Hospital. They say it looked doctored to show that the damage from the last bullet was not as bad as it was & that other "wounds" were manufactured to show shots coming from the rear rather than the front.
If all this is to believed then Kennedy must have been the most unluckiest bloke ever in that he could be shot by someone who was only in position minutes before the cavalcade went past & then quick & silent as a mouse to run down 4 flights of stairs without being seen or heard. And supposedly the cavalcade was running late & was due at the Trade Mart at 12.30, and thus if running on time Oswald would have been too late.
people are questioning what happened based by evidence put in front of them, like LHO firing 3 rounds in 8 seconds despite better marksmen not being able to do so. Questioning evidence like that doesn't necessarily answer questions on what may have actually happened.
as for who would benefit, the CIA, mafia, Russia theories have all been presented previously on this thread
The why is a whole different ballgame. Payback for the Bay of Pigs maybe ? But probably something bigger than that.
Let us be honest it was a hugely embarrassing failure by Federal and State Security Services.
Having lived in Dallas for a decade « local gossip » refers at the time to some disquiet of even having the open topped Presidential Parade through a gun culture southern state in the first place. Few locally accept the theory of the lone gunman but then they have a very unhealthy disrespect for the offices of the Federal Government.
I suggest over the intervening decades a large minority hold a similar scepticism.
Could LHO have been the lone gunman? On any given day it’s not impossible ….but if anyone were intent on JFKs demise why would you leave an open air parade opportunity to chance?
I am not a believer in many conspiracies but despite JFKs « man for the people » popularity (beyond his philandering) there were noted « questionable » connections to his political rise to the top. In the event I am not sure his brother (or indeed his father) did much to ease the tensions with such connections.
I did find the discrepancies between the notes & accounts of the gun wound specialist independent Trauma Surgeons of the highly respected Parkland Hospital ( views they steadfastly stood by over the decades) and those of the alleged inexperienced Navy Miltary unit used in the Bethesda Post Mortem process extremely disquieting.
The initial extremely graphic photos taken in Parkland Hospital glaringly reveal the nature of the extensive injuries where there is a gaping wound at the back of his head suggesting the damage created by a projectile exiting the body.
In contravention of state law the corpse of JFK was forcibly removed from Dallas by the FBI within hours of his death. Whatever the machinations which drove the assassination there was only one arm of government intent on ham fisted control of the agenda upon his death.
Whether their motivation was driven by pure embarrassment or something more sinister can but be speculation. Allegedly conspicuous by their absence in the security and coverage of his path through the city the corridors of Parkland Hospital and the Bethesda Post Mortem facility were awash with Security services personnel.
They were also concerned he would normalize relations with Cuba (very possible), he would end involvement in southeast Asian (very possible), and that he would try to end the Cold War in his second term (far more speculative, but I would say it was possible). Cuba, SE Asia, and the general parapolitics of the time were what made these men, and made them king makers. They weren't going to stop. They had trained assassination teams (ZRIFLE) training to execute Castro. Is it that hard to turn that inward?
2) The Mafia--while I believe they played an ancillary role in the assassination, they did benefit by Bobby Kennedy not going after them anymore. Bobby kind of "made his bones" on the McClellan Committee going after organized crime and particularly Jimmy Hoffa. He continued that as AG. That stopped when Jack was shot.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, the CIA and mafia worked together very closely throughout the 50s, so there is a lot of overlap between the two groups. Jack Ruby probably lies at the intersection of those two groups, he had a kind of "organized crime hanger on" background and gets into gun running into Cuba with the CIA.
3) What I'll broadly call "Bircherites" (members of the Johnb Birch society): aka Fascists. They genuinely believed Kennedy was a Communist who was going to turn the US into a Communist state. There is a lot of overlap between them and group 1. This might be where Tippit comes from (he was a staunch racist, though how and why he was involved I have no clue). This, along with group one, is probably where anyone with the Dallas PD and Secret Service who were involved might fall, though they also might fall under group one as well given the Mayor of Dallas was a CIA asset with the last name Bissell (brother of Richard Bissell).
There's also "Captains of industry" who Kennedy was threatening to go after for labor abuses (he'd already had Bobby go after US Steel). LBJ obviously had quite a bit to gain. Members of the Secret Service hated Kennedy regardless of whether they were willing participants or not. Richard Nixon hated the Kennedys. George H.W. Bush couldn't remember where he was on 11/22/63 for decades until Babs provided him with a cover story (He definitely falls under section 1). And so on.
Who would not benefit:
1) Castro. Kennedy had a secret envoy in Cuba at the time of his death to feel out Fidel about normalizing relations. Fidel sort of weirdly liked the Kennedys in some ways. In the last few months of his life Jack with the help of Bobby started putting out back channel feelers to Cuba.
2) Khrushchev. This is not to say that others within the Kremlin or KGB didn't benefit, but Khrushchev and Kennedy had developed a back channel in the wake of the Missile Crisis. I'm nowhere near convinced that Kennedy would have ended the Cold War in his second term, which is a very kind of Oliver Stone claim, but relations with the Soviet Union were definitely starting to thaw in the last few months before Dallas.
As for the brain going missing--that is true. But I believe that the brain goes missing when some evidence is turned over to the Kennedy family, and then they return some of it. I can't remember exactly how that all transpires. But it has also long been rumored that they buried his brain when they buried Bobby. They're staunch Catholics, so the body stuff matters a lot. The latter part of this is rumor, but the actual brain "Disappearing" might have a more innocent explanation than what some assume.
The most important part is that the autopsy pictures look nothing like what the doctors at Parkland saw or the wounds we can clearly see in the Z film. There are bits of head and brain that are found on the street the next day, there's bits of brain on the backseat of the limo, Jackie had some in her hand, there's some on her. And the back and side of the head look almost perfectly intact in the autopsy pictures.
I feel there is definitely more to what happened than the official explanation.
JFK is a great film.
I doubt we'll ever know for sure but my own view is it wasn't necessarily any one group (be that FBI, organised crime of another) but more likely a rogue faction of one or more of those groups.
How much exactly Oswald was involved or not is something that we'll also never likely know but I am certainly sceptical of him being a lone gunman.
Thing is, it has always been the belief that the bullet was found on Governor Connolly's stretcher AND no one can ever remember seeing this Secret Service agent in the room at the time.
The truth or more obfuscation ???
Whoever killed JFK, the bigger question is surely WHY ?
There is now a massive weight of evidence discrediting the original conclusions.
The latest I’ve just seen is The film of the Parkland Hospital doctor’s recollections- just watched it, is utterly damming.
LHO - I now doubt he fired any shots at all.
This is the only “ Conspiracy Theory “ I-have any time for.
Well - Princess Diana’s death - perhaps a small doubt.
Like many I can still remember where I was on hearing news of the assassination.
1. They all though it was an entrance wound, not an exit one.
2. They performed the tracheotomy and used that wound as it was the easiest place to get a tube into JFK's throat.
They were surprised no one told the doctors who then did the autopsy at Bethesda about this. It was common knowledge in the trauma room at Parkland what was done & who did it.
The doctors at Parkland were there to save the President's life and not to find out why or where bullets struck.The Autopsy should have been performed there but was taken away, under severe duress, by the Secret Service to a naval base where they could have control over the autopsy.