I've not heard anyone, say shut the border. Just reduce immigration to an acceptable level, that we can cope with. Everyone recognises that we need immigration. It just needs to be controlled and limited more to what we need.
How do we decide who can come in and who can't?
Why are you going round in circles ? We all know the answer is a points based system, like other countries have.
No we don't! First it appears that immigrants tend to be younger, more likely to work and more highly qualified. Contrary to propaganda you don't come here for the benefits nor the weather. We also know that public services for the existing population like the NHS depend upun immigrant labour to keep them going. It simply is not ethical to suggest you're going to take qualified people from a poor country but not the rest. The whole EU immigration debate is a pointless sideshow to deflect from the failures of the government. It also fails to recognise that a successful open economy attracts entrepreneur immigrants. If Cameron was serious about immigration and the EU he would campaign for the other large EU economies to deregulate their restrictive practices, create new jobs and attract labour from poorer parts of the EU.
Is it ethical that Charlton sign the players they want, but not the ones they don't want ? It can't be ethical to be paying and playing Vetkele. Bring Church back in. Discrimination !
Assuming the numbers in this BBC article are accurate it sort of makes a mockery of the EU points based immigration argument. In the period covered 560,000 entered the UK, taking out returning Brits and those from the EU that left 265,000. Now those were subject to the points based system.
Everyone that wants & believes in unlimited immigration, because they believe it should be so & unethical to deny anyone in the world, the right to move to Britain.
You guys start up a register & put your names on it & then for everyone that comes to Britain, someone off the register can swap with them.
This way, Britain maintains a steady population. We are not discriminating and everyone should be very happy :-)
Everyone that wants & believes in unlimited immigration, because they believe it should be so & unethical to deny anyone in the world, the right to move to Britain.
You guys start up a register & put your names on it & then for everyone that comes to Britain, someone off the register can swap with them.
This way, Britain maintains a steady population. We are not discriminating and everyone should be very happy :-)
im not going to be on a tory gubbermunt list!!!! HOW DARE YO- oooo, where do i sign for my government issued id card?
Everyone that wants & believes in unlimited immigration, because they believe it should be so & unethical to deny anyone in the world, the right to move to Britain.
You guys start up a register & put your names on it & then for everyone that comes to Britain, someone off the register can swap with them.
This way, Britain maintains a steady population. We are not discriminating and everyone should be very happy :-)
Everyone that wants & believes in unlimited immigration, because they believe it should be so & unethical to deny anyone in the world, the right to move to Britain.
You guys start up a register & put your names on it & then for everyone that comes to Britain, someone off the register can swap with them.
This way, Britain maintains a steady population. We are not discriminating and everyone should be very happy :-)
But but what would happen to our British culture?
Well it would continue to erode.
However, at least we would be able to build enough properties for everyone to live in. We wouldn't have as many living in garden sheds and on the streets.
The schools, NHS & services would hopefully be able to better cope.
Roll up, roll up & get yourself on the register :-)
I'm obviously mixing too many concepts there...Non EU immigration is a different story. The EU has always had freedom of movement...always! To equalise the flow of people throughout the EU two things need to happen. Poorer states need assistance to build their economies and that is why eastern European countries were accepted. And the bigger western economies need to sort their shit out. There is a case for looking at any EU border facing the outside - by land see or air but people trafficking will always find a way through. My disgust at UKIP and the Tory leadership is that immigrants contribute to our economy and they are simply banging on as a way to sidestep the important issues like job creation, skills and building our economy. The total number employed has gone up year on year on year but the typical wage is down...the tories plan to freeze benefits for the working poor "because of the deficit" but that hasn't stopped them reducing corporation tax or completely failing to eradicate waste etc etc. They're cynically blaming Johnny foreigner and a minority buy this. The next election is on a knife edge and the labour leadership is innefective / possibly about to be thrown overboard?! This makes for an environment where some pretty extreme statements and distortions will be made - personally I believe the crash was down to a failure to regulate banks properly and that this can be addressed in London, the EU and across the world. I don't believe the fall in living standards for ordinary working people is anything to do with the banks. I think it's a toxic mix of profiteering oil companies and supermarkets together with a government refusing to invest in jobs, houses and growth.
For sure the ethical bit is Alice in wonderland since this country has been up to no good for centuries
seriously red There has not always been free movement in the EU. When some of the Eastern European countries joined Blair allowed people in straight away but Germany along with others had a seven year embargo.
seriously red There has not always been free movement in the EU. When some of the Eastern European countries joined Blair allowed people in straight away but Germany along with others had a seven year embargo.
Was it not just Romania and Bulgaria? I'm sure I read it was to do with assurances about their legal systems. Without looking at the numbers I would doubt it has made that much difference to the overall figure. I'd also hazard that the vast majority of those are currently employed and contributing to our economy.
Sure Poland had a five year wait to go to Germany because there was a fear of mass migration over the land border. But Ireland, UK and others chose not to do this which is where the politics come in pre crash about Labour encouraging immigration to help fight inflation. Everyone had a five year limit on Romania and the UKIP hysteria this time last year would have been laughable if it hadn't been so nasty, cynical and shaped this year's debate. At the time poll after poll put immigration very low on voters concerns but UKIP have succeeded on promoting concerns about this to the same level as the NHS and jobs...and way above the fiscal deficit. I'm not sure the whole truth but one commentator has said this is a proxy debate for the racism that shall not be vocalised! And this was in the Times not the guardian before someone accuses me or wearing sandals!
Full on data and clear political debate is vital for the next election sets the stage for the UK in this century. Personally I'm not worried about net inward migration of 250,000 a year in a country as big as ours but then I've always lived in the suburbs.
In 2004 Cyprus , Czech Rep ,Estonia, Hungary, Latvia ,Lithuania, Malta ,Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia joined but only Ireland, Sweden and UK allowed immediate access. By Dec 2009 all countries allowed access except for Austria and Germany who finally lifted their embargo in May 2011. Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007 but had to wait for access.
Chunes, how many of these less fortunate, have you invited to live in your house ?
I said I welcome less fortunate people to live in the country and share its wealth ... Is this thread about immigration or the spare room tax? Bit silly really
As I've said before I'm against the mindset of anti-immigration. Re-reading my posts it could be construed that I'm all for unlimited immigration but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.
I've read some evidence from other - more sensible - posters that make an interesting case for overcrowding but I'm not totally convinced. I do believe that we can keep up with the current rate. And should.
But if there is an argument for anti-immigration then I'd listen to it based on overcrowding to the point where public services were unusable, and not on the false idea that people come just to claim benefits, which is nonsense and fuelled by newspaper sales.
The population of the UK is growing in excees of 400k per year (see link below,which I assume includes a figure for immigration). Last year 110,000 new homes were completed and with all the promises by polititions to build x number homes which is never achieved, because they have no control over the house builders who own the land, who will only build on their land bank if and when they can turn a profit. Most of the homes promised for London are in places like Battersea and Greenwich, which are being bought by oversea investors and some are never lived in.
Perhaps we should go back to fifties/sixties where Victorian terraces were demolised and high rises blocks of flats were built, or better still complusory purchase one of Tony Blairs mansions and build on that.
The population of the UK is growing in excees of 400k per year (see link below,which I assume includes a figure for immigration). Last year 110,000 new homes were completed and with all the promises by polititions to build x number homes which is never achieved, because they have no control over the house builders who own the land, who will only build on their land bank if and when they can turn a profit. Most of the homes promised for London are in places like Battersea and Greenwich, which are being bought by oversea investors and some are never lived in.
Perhaps we should go back to fifties/sixties where Victorian terraces were demolised and high rises blocks of flats were built, or better still complusory purchase one of Tony Blairs mansions and build on that.
Recently moved from London to Hong Kong, which at a population density of 6,500 people per sq km (compared to England's 450), gives me a decent amount of knowledge on "overcrowding" !
It's not just about space for building houses, it's the whole infrastructure of the UK. There are serious issues with supply of the most basic services (Transport, Education, NHS, etc) at current population levels. These are not going to go away over night.
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
So some of the posters, most vociferous, in favour of mass immigration to Britain, are :-
Prague - lives in Prague. Algarve - lives in Algarve. Chunes - lives in Hong Kong. seriously - told us he is considering moving to the West Of Ireland.
So some of the posters, most vociferous, in favour of mass immigration to Britain, are :-
Prague - lives in Prague. Algarve - lives in Algarve. Chunes - lives in Hong Kong. seriously - told us he is considering moving to the West Of Ireland.
#justsaying
Likewise, most public proponents of removing all safeguards to restricting/stopping mass immigration into the UK are either non-UK residents, or millionaires who own several properties with large enough grounds that they use immigrant labour to clean them or tend the gardens, or pundits who own mansions and villas on the continent, or those running massive multinational corporations who thrive off a cheap and limitless supply of labour.
Maybe if those who have never had a pay-rise in the last 10 years or find that their children cannot move out as house prices have skyrocketed or other people similarly affected by mass immigration had even a fraction of the voice the rich oligarchs and their friends in the media who all benefit or are not impacted by mass immigration have, you might hear some views on immigration that won't be simply swatted away by self-appointed progressives just because they're views that have been adopted by UKIP.
It's not just about space for building houses, it's the whole infrastructure of the UK. There are serious issues with supply of the most basic services (Transport, Education, NHS, etc) at current population levels. These are not going to go away over night.
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
But, the net contributions EU migrants are making should be used for these things instead it is being used to cut the deficit.
So some of the posters, most vociferous, in favour of mass immigration to Britain, are :-
Prague - lives in Prague. Algarve - lives in Algarve. Chunes - lives in Hong Kong. seriously - told us he is considering moving to the West Of Ireland.
#justsaying
It's hardly a surprise that those who see the benefit of other cultures have gone to live in other cultures.
So some of the posters, most vociferous, in favour of mass immigration to Britain, are :-
Prague - lives in Prague. Algarve - lives in Algarve. Chunes - lives in Hong Kong. seriously - told us he is considering moving to the West Of Ireland.
#justsaying
says more about those who are against mass immigration imo (i'm also personally against mass immigration nu labour style). Living and working in a different culture with a different language can be an eye opener.
It's not just about space for building houses, it's the whole infrastructure of the UK. There are serious issues with supply of the most basic services (Transport, Education, NHS, etc) at current population levels. These are not going to go away over night.
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
But, the net contributions EU migrants are making should be used for these things instead it is being used to cut the deficit.
Ah - the old spend, spend, spend mantra. So easy to say when it isn't your money.
One of the reasons why we're in this mess and having to pay down the excesses of the last Government. And their on book record of expenditure on infrastructure was one of the lowest in history.
It's not just about space for building houses, it's the whole infrastructure of the UK. There are serious issues with supply of the most basic services (Transport, Education, NHS, etc) at current population levels. These are not going to go away over night.
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
But, the net contributions EU migrants are making should be used for these things instead it is being used to cut the deficit.
Ah - the old spend, spend, spend mantra. So easy to say when it isn't your money.
One of the reasons why we're in this mess and having to pay down the excesses of the last Government. And their on book record of expenditure on infrastructure was one of the lowest in history.
If everything was the fault of the Labour Government then why was there an economic crisis in every country in the world that just happened to occur at the same time Gordon Brown was PM. Easy for the current nobility in charge to scapegoat Brown when in truth what happened here happened all around the world and would have happened if we had Ebenezer Scrooge in charge at the time.
It's not just about space for building houses, it's the whole infrastructure of the UK. There are serious issues with supply of the most basic services (Transport, Education, NHS, etc) at current population levels. These are not going to go away over night.
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
But, the net contributions EU migrants are making should be used for these things instead it is being used to cut the deficit.
Ah - the old spend, spend, spend mantra. So easy to say when it isn't your money.
One of the reasons why we're in this mess and having to pay down the excesses of the last Government. And their on book record of expenditure on infrastructure was one of the lowest in history.
Slightly twisting my words, I'm not advocating what the previous government did in terms of spending, but there needs to be a compromise somewhere.
Treasury chief, Liam Byrne's infamous note to new incumbent David Laws is something that is often forgotten. "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money left. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam."
Comments
First it appears that immigrants tend to be younger, more likely to work and more highly qualified. Contrary to propaganda you don't come here for the benefits nor the weather.
We also know that public services for the existing population like the NHS depend upun immigrant labour to keep them going.
It simply is not ethical to suggest you're going to take qualified people from a poor country but not the rest.
The whole EU immigration debate is a pointless sideshow to deflect from the failures of the government. It also fails to recognise that a successful open economy attracts entrepreneur immigrants. If Cameron was serious about immigration and the EU he would campaign for the other large EU economies to deregulate their restrictive practices, create new jobs and attract labour from poorer parts of the EU.
It can't be ethical to be paying and playing Vetkele. Bring Church back in. Discrimination !
Assuming the numbers in this BBC article are accurate it sort of makes a mockery of the EU points based immigration argument. In the period covered 560,000 entered the UK, taking out returning Brits and those from the EU that left 265,000. Now those were subject to the points based system.
Everyone that wants & believes in unlimited immigration, because they believe it should be so & unethical to deny anyone in the world, the right to move to Britain.
You guys start up a register & put your names on it & then for everyone that comes to Britain, someone off the register can swap with them.
This way, Britain maintains a steady population. We are not discriminating and everyone should be very happy :-)
However, at least we would be able to build enough properties for everyone to live in. We wouldn't have as many living in garden sheds and on the streets.
The schools, NHS & services would hopefully be able to better cope.
Roll up, roll up & get yourself on the register :-)
The EU has always had freedom of movement...always! To equalise the flow of people throughout the EU two things need to happen. Poorer states need assistance to build their economies and that is why eastern European countries were accepted. And the bigger western economies need to sort their shit out.
There is a case for looking at any EU border facing the outside - by land see or air but people trafficking will always find a way through.
My disgust at UKIP and the Tory leadership is that immigrants contribute to our economy and they are simply banging on as a way to sidestep the important issues like job creation, skills and building our economy.
The total number employed has gone up year on year on year but the typical wage is down...the tories plan to freeze benefits for the working poor "because of the deficit" but that hasn't stopped them reducing corporation tax or completely failing to eradicate waste etc etc.
They're cynically blaming Johnny foreigner and a minority buy this. The next election is on a knife edge and the labour leadership is innefective / possibly about to be thrown overboard?!
This makes for an environment where some pretty extreme statements and distortions will be made - personally I believe the crash was down to a failure to regulate banks properly and that this can be addressed in London, the EU and across the world. I don't believe the fall in living standards for ordinary working people is anything to do with the banks. I think it's a toxic mix of profiteering oil companies and supermarkets together with a government refusing to invest in jobs, houses and growth.
For sure the ethical bit is Alice in wonderland since this country has been up to no good for centuries
There has not always been free movement in the EU.
When some of the Eastern European countries joined Blair allowed people in straight away but Germany along with others had a seven year embargo.
Everyone had a five year limit on Romania and the UKIP hysteria this time last year would have been laughable if it hadn't been so nasty, cynical and shaped this year's debate.
At the time poll after poll put immigration very low on voters concerns but UKIP have succeeded on promoting concerns about this to the same level as the NHS and jobs...and way above the fiscal deficit.
I'm not sure the whole truth but one commentator has said this is a proxy debate for the racism that shall not be vocalised! And this was in the Times not the guardian before someone accuses me or wearing sandals!
Full on data and clear political debate is vital for the next election sets the stage for the UK in this century. Personally I'm not worried about net inward migration of 250,000 a year in a country as big as ours but then I've always lived in the suburbs.
Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007 but had to wait for access.
As I've said before I'm against the mindset of anti-immigration. Re-reading my posts it could be construed that I'm all for unlimited immigration but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.
I've read some evidence from other - more sensible - posters that make an interesting case for overcrowding but I'm not totally convinced. I do believe that we can keep up with the current rate. And should.
But if there is an argument for anti-immigration then I'd listen to it based on overcrowding to the point where public services were unusable, and not on the false idea that people come just to claim benefits, which is nonsense and fuelled by newspaper sales. Haha, that's ironic!
Ed - @PragueAddick I know I didn't respond directly to your post but good points well made
Perhaps we should go back to fifties/sixties where Victorian terraces were demolised and high rises blocks of flats were built, or better still complusory purchase one of Tony Blairs mansions and build on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population.
Chunes where do live and work?
Power supplies (Coal Fired Power stations are disappearing to help reduce Carbon emmissions)and the supply of fresh drinking water and the subsequent removal and treatment of foul water are just two that haven't even been mentioned yet.
Prague - lives in Prague.
Algarve - lives in Algarve.
Chunes - lives in Hong Kong.
seriously - told us he is considering moving to the West Of Ireland.
#justsaying
Maybe if those who have never had a pay-rise in the last 10 years or find that their children cannot move out as house prices have skyrocketed or other people similarly affected by mass immigration had even a fraction of the voice the rich oligarchs and their friends in the media who all benefit or are not impacted by mass immigration have, you might hear some views on immigration that won't be simply swatted away by self-appointed progressives just because they're views that have been adopted by UKIP.
One of the reasons why we're in this mess and having to pay down the excesses of the last Government. And their on book record of expenditure on infrastructure was one of the lowest in history.
Change the record. Its discredited.
Treasury chief, Liam Byrne's infamous note to new incumbent David Laws is something that is often forgotten. "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money left. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam."