What I dont get is that if a women is too drunk she is deemed unable to consent and is therefore not responsible for her actions. But then a drunk man has to be responsible for his actions (rightly so) and effectively for the female concerned too. I.e. a drunk man has to make a decision as to whether the drunk women is actually too drunk to consent? That seems a little confusing to me.
Easy answer - if you have to question whether she's sober enough to consent she probably isn't.
We do not know what the "new" evidence is so it is pointless debating this now. All the different arguments and opinions have been raised on one thread or another already . Lets wait and see .
Matthew Syed is right. How can Evans be a role model? It's nonsense. It's up to parents to educate their own children - not to expect them to take examples from sportspeople. Most children get their examples from what they see and hear in their own lives, not from what is reported to have happened at 3am on a Saturday night somewhere. They get their examples from their parents, close relatives, school teachers, other children at school etc - people who they come into contact with. The only real example they get from professional footballers is what happens on the pitch. In that respect it can be argued that Suarez is a worse role model than Evans.
Even if a footballer can be perceived as a role model then surely he'd have to be a top level player. I wouldn't say to my sons if they were keen footballers to take their example from 3rd division players. I'd get them to watch top teams and explain to them what they're doing right or wrong. Who had even heard of Evans before this happened? How many other members of the Sheff Utd team could those that argue abour role models name?
I have JimmyMelrose as my name on here and I 'loved' him when I was 14/15 years old. If he'd have raped someone however, do you really think that it would have influenced my behaviour? I would more likely have been disappointed in him and rejected him.
My two boys play tennis and their role models are the coaches at their club. They couldn't even tell you who's won the Grand Slams this year. I think people over-estimate the influence of professional sportspeople. Children are not stupid.
It is a logical impossibility that only one of the two men were found guilty.
Either Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald are both guilty or they are both innocent.
Nope.
The woman went back to the hotel with McDonald, at some point Evans showed up. It's quite within the realms of possibility that McDonald left with her drunk and passed out and Evans preceded to rape her. They weren't all doing it at the same time lol.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there was very little time distance between Clayton turning up and Evans turning up. Seems a logical impossibility to me.
Of course it is her word against theirs. She claims not to remember a thing, and both Clayton and Ched say they are innocent.
I certainly wouldn't be surprised if his conviction is quashed.
happy to. Clayton went to the hotel WITH the girl whilst Evans turned up later.
I am quite happy for Evans to appeal and for those responsible to listen to the appeal and, as I do in agreeing with innocent until proved guilty, if he was cleared then he is innocent. Either way though whatever happened that night he is at best, in my opinion, a scumbag who took advantage of a young girl who was obviously drunk and incapable. What a nice chap.
Matthew Syed is right. How can Evans be a role model? It's nonsense. It's up to parents to educate their own children - not to expect them to take examples from sportspeople. Most children get their examples from what they see and hear in their own lives, not from what is reported to have happened at 3am on a Saturday night somewhere. They get their examples from their parents, close relatives, school teachers, other children at school etc - people who they come into contact with. The only real example they get from professional footballers is what happens on the pitch. In that respect it can be argued that Suarez is a worse role model than Evans.
Even if a footballer can be perceived as a role model then surely he'd have to be a top level player. I wouldn't say to my sons if they were keen footballers to take their example from 3rd division players. I'd get them to watch top teams and explain to them what they're doing right or wrong. Who had even heard of Evans before this happened? How many other members of the Sheff Utd team could those that argue abour role models name?
I have JimmyMelrose as my name on here and I 'loved' him when I was 14/15 years old. If he'd have raped someone however, do you really think that it would have influenced my behaviour? I would more likely have been disappointed in him and rejected him.
My two boys play tennis and their role models are the coaches at their club. They couldn't even tell you who's won the Grand Slams this year. I think people over-estimate the influence of professional sportspeople. Children are not stupid.
It is a logical impossibility that only one of the two men were found guilty.
Either Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald are both guilty or they are both innocent.
Nope.
The woman went back to the hotel with McDonald, at some point Evans showed up. It's quite within the realms of possibility that McDonald left with her drunk and passed out and Evans preceded to rape her. They weren't all doing it at the same time lol.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there was very little time distance between Clayton turning up and Evans turning up. Seems a logical impossibility to me.
Of course it is her word against theirs. She claims not to remember a thing, and both Clayton and Ched say they are innocent.
I certainly wouldn't be surprised if his conviction is quashed.
I've lost count now of the number of times it has been pointed out that it is NOT her word against theirs. Her evidence was that she had no memory of events at the hotel. She went to the police because she thought her drink had been spiked.
The primary reason Evans got found guilty was his own testimony. and, presumably, because he and his mate told conflicting stories in the trial.
It will be interesting to see what fresh evidence has surfaced (did the phone footage of the sordid event ever come to light?) And what the Court of Appeal make of it.
It is a logical impossibility that only one of the two men were found guilty.
Either Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald are both guilty or they are both innocent.
So when a girl agrees to sleep with a bloke, she's potentially agreeing to all his mates too?
No, but if she's too drunk to consent to one how can she consent to another ?
That's the thing that's always seemed odd about this conviction, it's not about whether she did or didn't consent, only she knows that and she can't remember. It's was ruled she didn't have the capacity to consent to Evans because she was so drunk so how did she have the capacity to consent to McDonald moments earlier ?
She left a club and got into a taxi with one bloke, the other bloke blagged a key off a porter then snuck out via the fire escape, its not quite the same.
Either way, this thread coming to life with the same posts backwards and forwards again is evidence that the Court of Appeal needs to get this tied up ASAP. Otherwise what is happening here will be replicated in the media and real world and everyone involved will be dragged through the gutter again.
It is a logical impossibility that only one of the two men were found guilty.
Either Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald are both guilty or they are both innocent.
So when a girl agrees to sleep with a bloke, she's potentially agreeing to all his mates too?
No, but if she's too drunk to consent to one how can she consent to another ?
That's the thing that's always seemed odd about this conviction, it's not about whether she did or didn't consent, only she knows that and she can't remember. It's was ruled she didn't have the capacity to consent to Evans because she was so drunk so how did she have the capacity to consent to McDonald moments earlier ?
She left a club and got into a taxi with one bloke, the other bloke blagged a key off a porter then snuck out via the fire escape, its not quite the same.
Well I'm sure you aren't saying that getting into a taxi with someone equals consent to have sex with them, it doesn't. But either way it doesn't address the point that if she was so drunk that she didn't have the capacity to consent, which is what Evans was convicted for, then how could she ?
It is a logical impossibility that only one of the two men were found guilty.
Either Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald are both guilty or they are both innocent.
So when a girl agrees to sleep with a bloke, she's potentially agreeing to all his mates too?
No, but if she's too drunk to consent to one how can she consent to another ?
That's the thing that's always seemed odd about this conviction, it's not about whether she did or didn't consent, only she knows that and she can't remember. It's was ruled she didn't have the capacity to consent to Evans because she was so drunk so how did she have the capacity to consent to McDonald moments earlier ?
She left a club and got into a taxi with one bloke, the other bloke blagged a key off a porter then snuck out via the fire escape, its not quite the same.
Well I'm sure you aren't saying that getting into a taxi with someone equals consent to have sex with them, it doesn't. But either way it doesn't address the point that if she was so drunk that she didn't have the capacity to consent, which is what Evans was convicted for, then how could she ?
It does not equal consent, but with the two different situations regarding their arrival its quite simple to see how one can be seen to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt, whilst the other not.
Also, when I drink, the change from coherent to passed out can be quite fast.
Like you I wasn't there, so I have no real idea what happened, however we, in my opinion, should accept the decision of a trial by Cheds' peers, until the court of appeal overturns that decision he is a rapist.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
I don't know what happened but I was happy to trust the initial conviction as he was given a 'fair' trial. If the same judicial system believe that he is entitled to an appeal then I'm happy for him to have one. If he is found to be innocent then as far as I'm concerned he's innocent.
The interesting thing is going to be what happens if he is found to be innocent. Will he look for compensation (heaven knows what he might have earned during that time if he'd been playing). Will Sheff Utd look for compensation as they might have been able to sell him for millions, they might have been promoted if he'd not been sentenced. Ironic that it could be them again claiming that they have found themselves in the wrong division by the fault of someone else, again.
Based on the media circus that will follow him for most of his career I think I'd prefer not to have him at Charlton, and this could apply to many other clubs, but if he is promoted he should be allowed to continue his career anywhere that he wants to. In fact, if he is cleared of everything it would be unfair for his career to be hindered any further. I suspect he will still be called a rapist by opposition fans everywhere he goes though, which is a sad indictment of our society.
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
But it doesn't make sense, think about it, why would you defend someone who was a rapist, who had betrayed your daughter unless they think Evans is innocent.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
But it doesn't make sense, think about it, why would you defend someone who was a rapist, who had betrayed your daughter unless they think Evans is innocent.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
1) No 2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
We'll see, some humble to be eaten if the appeal is successful.
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
But it doesn't make sense, think about it, why would you defend someone who was a rapist, who had betrayed your daughter unless they think Evans is innocent.
Doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
Of course it doesn't but again think about, the fathers reputation would be in tatters if there was not overwhelming evidence that says Evans is innocent.
BTW if the appeal goes against Evans then IMO the court should impose another 5-10 years inside.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
No of course if he is proven innocent in a court of law he is innocent. But he was proven guilty so - for now at least - he is a rapist.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
We'll see, some humble to be eaten if the appeal is successful.
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
But it doesn't make sense, think about it, why would you defend someone who was a rapist, who had betrayed your daughter unless they think Evans is innocent.
Doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
Of course it doesn't but again think about, the fathers reputation would be in tatters if there was not overwhelming evidence that says Evans is innocent.
BTW if the appeal goes against Evans then IMO the court should impose another 5-10 years inside.
Perhaps some pie may need to be served, but not to se9addick, he's not said anything that isn't 100% accurate, as it stands Evans IS a convicted rapist.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
1) No 2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
Don't jump to conclusions all he said is anyone who has raped a woman or man... therefore a man can rape a man, just as much as he can rape a woman.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
We'll see, some humble to be eaten if the appeal is successful.
Ched Evans girlfriend/fiancee has a very rich Dad, sadly think he will 'buy' the justice needed. Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans who presumably puts his self about when he can!
But it doesn't make sense, think about it, why would you defend someone who was a rapist, who had betrayed your daughter unless they think Evans is innocent.
Doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
Of course it doesn't but again think about, the fathers reputation would be in tatters if there was not overwhelming evidence that says Evans is innocent.
BTW if the appeal goes against Evans then IMO the court should impose another 5-10 years inside.
Perhaps some pie may need to be served, but not to se9addick, he's not said anything that isn't 100% accurate, as it stands Evans IS a convicted rapist.
Yes we all know that, but we also know there is an appeal so we are discussing that he may be innocent.
Also theres never been a miscarriage of justice in the UK before, has there........!
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
1) No 2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Karl Massey is not a lawyer. He left school at 15. He runs a chain of jewellery shops.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
1) No 2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
While that's true to an extent, a woman aiding and abetting (by merely being a lookout, for example) another individual to rape a man would be liable to the same sentence as the actual rapist. (Anal rape is rape). There is also a new offence of assault by penetration which is defined as penetration with any object to the anus or vagina. Which a woman could also be charged with. It carries the same maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
I stated sometime ago on this thread that the was more to this than meets the eye.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it. Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
Yes he is a rapist and yes he did do it, no allegedly about it*.
*source = a court of law
Oh dear!
Why ? You said you had no idea if Evans is a rapist, you do beause he is.
So if his appeal is successful and the conviction is quashed is he still a rapist?
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
1) No 2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
1) You appear to have difficulty in comprehending the difference between being convicted of a crime and having actually committed that crime. It is entirely possible for someone to be convicted of a crime that he or she did not commit. I'm sure you're familiar with the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6, to name just a couple of high profile miscarriages of justice. So, whilst it is perfectly accurate to say that he has been convicted of rape (at the time of writing), it may not be accurate to say that he is a rapist.
2) Not being obtuse in the slightest. By yours and se9addick's logic, the test of whether someone is a rapist is a successful criminal conviction, regardless of whether they actually committed the offence.
PS - I didn't mention a woman raping a man but it is in fact possible for a woman to be convicted of rape of a man if they are found guilty of conspiracy or aiding and abetting a rape by a man.
What I dont get is that if a women is too drunk she is deemed unable to consent and is therefore not responsible for her actions. But then a drunk man has to be responsible for his actions (rightly so) and effectively for the female concerned too. I.e. a drunk man has to make a decision as to whether the drunk women is actually too drunk to consent? That seems a little confusing to me.
Easy answer - if you have to question whether she's sober enough to consent she probably isn't.
But if the man has had a few drinks as well, his mind might not be very clear either.
Saturday night, you're steaming drunk, you meet a girl in the pub, who's also had too many and go back to your or her place. Somehow you manage to have sex. The next day you get arrested as she didn't give consent, is this fair, when both of you were equally drunk?
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I am quite happy for Evans to appeal and for those responsible to listen to the appeal and, as I do in agreeing with innocent until proved guilty, if he was cleared then he is innocent. Either way though whatever happened that night he is at best, in my opinion, a scumbag who took advantage of a young girl who was obviously drunk and incapable. What a nice chap.
The primary reason Evans got found guilty was his own testimony. and, presumably, because he and his mate told conflicting stories in the trial.
It will be interesting to see what fresh evidence has surfaced (did the phone footage of the sordid event ever come to light?) And what the Court of Appeal make of it.
A quick verdict is needed
Also, when I drink, the change from coherent to passed out can be quite fast.
Like you I wasn't there, so I have no real idea what happened, however we, in my opinion, should accept the decision of a trial by Cheds' peers, until the court of appeal overturns that decision he is a rapist.
Evens Mrs has stood by hime, her father (a solicitor) has stood by him, and I think I read that the dads company are seeking an appeal and are funding it.
Also remember Evans has betrayed his daughter at the very least, and at worst is a rapist, so there must be something in it for is Father in Law to back Evans.
Evans appears to be a man who has the morals of an alley cat, but is he a rapist? Like everyone on here, I have no idea, there are some that have already hung him for what he allegedly did, but I think those that have the foresight to see that an appeal was always going to happen, also have the intelligence to keep their powder dry, until the court do their (final) work.
We shall find out soon.
The interesting thing is going to be what happens if he is found to be innocent. Will he look for compensation (heaven knows what he might have earned during that time if he'd been playing). Will Sheff Utd look for compensation as they might have been able to sell him for millions, they might have been promoted if he'd not been sentenced. Ironic that it could be them again claiming that they have found themselves in the wrong division by the fault of someone else, again.
Based on the media circus that will follow him for most of his career I think I'd prefer not to have him at Charlton, and this could apply to many other clubs, but if he is promoted he should be allowed to continue his career anywhere that he wants to. In fact, if he is cleared of everything it would be unfair for his career to be hindered any further. I suspect he will still be called a rapist by opposition fans everywhere he goes though, which is a sad indictment of our society.
think he will 'buy' the justice needed.
Cannot understand the girlfriend sticking with Evans
who presumably puts his self about when he can!
*source = a court of law
And, by the same logic, anyone who has raped a woman (or man) but not been caught and convicted is not a rapist?
2) Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ps a woman can't rape a man, it is impossible.
BTW if the appeal goes against Evans then IMO the court should impose another 5-10 years inside.
Also theres never been a miscarriage of justice in the UK before, has there........!
Also @se9addick you said:
No of course if he is proven innocent in a court of law he is innocent. But he was proven guilty so - for now at least - he is a rapist.which is incorrect in my opinion.
I know only the courts opinion matters to most, but incorrect convictions occur sometimes.
Think of it this way...
If YOU were convicted of murder but didn't kill anyone, you are saying you are a murderer.
I bet you wouldn't just say
'well the court says I am a murderer so I must be a murderer'.
If he didn't commit the crime but was convicted as a rapist, but physically hasn't raped anyone he cannot actually be a 'rapist'.
I hope we learn the truth, whereby it is clarified that either he did rape the victim or he was innocent.
That is all that matters in all of this.
2) Not being obtuse in the slightest. By yours and se9addick's logic, the test of whether someone is a rapist is a successful criminal conviction, regardless of whether they actually committed the offence.
PS - I didn't mention a woman raping a man but it is in fact possible for a woman to be convicted of rape of a man if they are found guilty of conspiracy or aiding and abetting a rape by a man.
Saturday night, you're steaming drunk, you meet a girl in the pub, who's also had too many and go back to your or her place. Somehow you manage to have sex. The next day you get arrested as she didn't give consent, is this fair, when both of you were equally drunk?