I thought the LGBT group was set up in response to something posted somewhere on the net whereby some fans were claiming they had encountered homophobic abuse at a recent game. Although this turned out to be completely untrue a group of LGBT fans decided to set up a group anyway to positively promote this issue.
Strange one that, I can see both sides of the argument, Adrian Chiles on radio 5 asked a guy in NI who represented a gay group said, the judge has affectively said no business can refuse to serve a customer based on religious or personal beliefs, as long as what they were being asked to do was not illegal. He then asked the guy, if somebody walked into a t shirt printing business owned by a lesbian or gay man, and asked to have a t shirt printed saying "homosexuality is an abomination" Not illegal, their beliefs, but would that same t shirt printers be able to refuse the business because they didn't like or want to promote that sentiment based on their beliefs. I got the feeling, although he didn't answer it directly but I got the feeling that the gay group he represented would support the printers...double standards?
Strange one that, I can see both sides of the argument, Adrian Chiles on radio 5 asked a guy in NI who represented a gay group said, the judge has affectively said no business can refuse to serve a customer based on religious or personal beliefs, as long as what they were being asked to do was not illegal. He then asked the guy, if somebody walked into a t shirt printing business owned by a lesbian or gay man, and asked to have a t shirt printed saying "homosexuality is an abomination" Not illegal, their beliefs, but would that same t shirt printers be able to refuse the business because they didn't like or want to promote that sentiment based on their beliefs. I got the feeling, although he didn't answer it directly but I got the feeling that the gay group he represented would support the printers...double standards?
The bakery refused to bake the cake because it promoted promotion of a sexual orientation. This was deemed to be 'discriminating on the grounds of sexual orientation'.
The t-shirt seller would not be discriminating against the anti-gay t-shirt buyer if he refused because there is no legal protection for holding hateful views.
A bit off-topic but there is a point here that seemed to go spectacularly over the heads of all those involved. I saw there were two sides to the debate - those who said the cake should be baked because refusing service to homosexuals should be illegal, and those who said they were right to not bake the cake because they should not be forced to do something against the religious beliefs. I have not seen a single person raise this point - they weren't actually refusing to serve the customer because they were gay. They just weren't comfortable with the order they received. I'm surprised that they didn't just refuse to bake it on copyright grounds as I believe the cake was using Sesame Street characters on it? I agree that there's a fine line here but if the gay couple had asked for any other cake, even a wedding cake, I'm sure the bakery would have been happy to process their order. Just some food for thought.
....I was a sixer so I know what I'm talking about
I was a sixer and I think I was G57 if it's the group that met at Charlton Manor School, so I know what I'm talking about as well.
Yeah, but everyone knew the 51st Greenwich Scout Group were the elite, a bit like the SAS as a modern day comparison , at least in the late 50s/60s.
St Richards Church Hall Swallowfield Road Charlton
Not sure about the 6 year old passing the Microsoft exam, seemed a bit of a sad individual, far too busy tearing around the estates on my bike and playing football to be concerned with that type of nonsense.
I was trying to work out whether I had been in G57 or G51, but now Ken has pointed out that G51 was at Swallowfield Rd, I realise it was G51 for cubs. Long walk from Charlton Church Lane (half way down) to Swallowfield at that age (8/9). Joined scouts, G40 I think around Delafield Rd somewhere, then when we moved up the gill joined G1(or was it G2) in Farjeon Rd as it was literally over the back fence for me.
At Norwich this season the CAFC fans singing the Adams family song the loudest were from NORWICH. ( a family of 4 in the row in front of me )
At Brighton this season one CAFC fan singing "we can see you holding hands" with Passion, is GAY.
The last season we were at Spurs in the Prem, some Charlton fans thought it was funny to sing the "Gassing Song" (5 millions died ). Can't see any humour there.
IF you can't see the difference between the top 2 which have elements of humour even if the Brighton song is passe now; and making a song about mass murder, then Nature(i'm an atheist) help you.
If LGBT feel the need, fine, have your own group.
But the match day experience for me is i don't give a dam about what you do for a living, who you vote for,your views on Religion, Sex, or if you are from Mars.
That's for this forum, where i would be interested to hear about your match day experience if you were from Mars and Gay ! (where do you park the spaceship) and do you want to start your own group or just blend in with the rest of us ?
So who or whatever you are; Just get behind the Boys and make some Noise (copywrite:BDL)
Strange one that, I can see both sides of the argument, Adrian Chiles on radio 5 asked a guy in NI who represented a gay group said, the judge has affectively said no business can refuse to serve a customer based on religious or personal beliefs, as long as what they were being asked to do was not illegal. He then asked the guy, if somebody walked into a t shirt printing business owned by a lesbian or gay man, and asked to have a t shirt printed saying "homosexuality is an abomination" Not illegal, their beliefs, but would that same t shirt printers be able to refuse the business because they didn't like or want to promote that sentiment based on their beliefs. I got the feeling, although he didn't answer it directly but I got the feeling that the gay group he represented would support the printers...double standards?
The bakery refused to bake the cake because it promoted promotion of a sexual orientation. This was deemed to be 'discriminating on the grounds of sexual orientation'.
The t-shirt seller would not be discriminating against the anti-gay t-shirt buyer if he refused because there is no legal protection for holding hateful views.
A bit off-topic but there is a point here that seemed to go spectacularly over the heads of all those involved. I saw there were two sides to the debate - those who said the cake should be baked because refusing service to homosexuals should be illegal, and those who said they were right to not bake the cake because they should not be forced to do something against the religious beliefs. I have not seen a single person raise this point - they weren't actually refusing to serve the customer because they were gay. They just weren't comfortable with the order they received. I'm surprised that they didn't just refuse to bake it on copyright grounds as I believe the cake was using Sesame Street characters on it? I agree that there's a fine line here but if the gay couple had asked for any other cake, even a wedding cake, I'm sure the bakery would have been happy to process their order. Just some food for thought.
Strange one that, I can see both sides of the argument, Adrian Chiles on radio 5 asked a guy in NI who represented a gay group said, the judge has affectively said no business can refuse to serve a customer based on religious or personal beliefs, as long as what they were being asked to do was not illegal. He then asked the guy, if somebody walked into a t shirt printing business owned by a lesbian or gay man, and asked to have a t shirt printed saying "homosexuality is an abomination" Not illegal, their beliefs, but would that same t shirt printers be able to refuse the business because they didn't like or want to promote that sentiment based on their beliefs. I got the feeling, although he didn't answer it directly but I got the feeling that the gay group he represented would support the printers...double standards?
The bakery refused to bake the cake because it promoted promotion of a sexual orientation. This was deemed to be 'discriminating on the grounds of sexual orientation'.
The t-shirt seller would not be discriminating against the anti-gay t-shirt buyer if he refused because there is no legal protection for holding hateful views.
A bit off-topic but there is a point here that seemed to go spectacularly over the heads of all those involved. I saw there were two sides to the debate - those who said the cake should be baked because refusing service to homosexuals should be illegal, and those who said they were right to not bake the cake because they should not be forced to do something against the religious beliefs. I have not seen a single person raise this point - they weren't actually refusing to serve the customer because they were gay. They just weren't comfortable with the order they received. I'm surprised that they didn't just refuse to bake it on copyright grounds as I believe the cake was using Sesame Street characters on it? I agree that there's a fine line here but if the gay couple had asked for any other cake, even a wedding cake, I'm sure the bakery would have been happy to process their order. Just some food for thought.
Religion always complicates these matters. As a society, there has to be things that take priority over the need to be tolerant of religion. On the extreme side, we can say that if a religion advocates stoning people, we can say that we won’t tolerate it. Society has to look at the consequences and decide on the appropriate position, but the point was clearly made earlier, that you can’t have a system where people who provide a service, are exlcuding people from that service because of their sexual preference, race or whatever.
I hate the snidey way some bigoted people try to argue against these things with fake reason. Coleen Nolan compared it to IS ordering a cake which is ridiculous. Why is she bothered about IS anyway? I recall when the civil partnership bill was being debated in the House of Commons. Lord Tebbit argued that it was unfair on brothers and sisters living together, when he clearly was opposed to civil partnerships because it was for gay people!
Is there a use for the group – yes, for its members to meet likeminded people (if they want to) and IF and it is an if, there is any homophobic behaviour or issues to highlight it to the club. None of this affects me, other than I am glad that supporters of my club reflect all parts of society. I despise football clubs that are built on bigotry. That is why when asked whether I like Rangers or Celtic more, I say I despise them both equally.
My personal take on this, is that he spouted his nonsensical logic and bile, and when challenged tried to hide behind religion to justify his feelings. I doubt he has a single religious bone in his body.
he would have if he went to a catholic school................
At Norwich this season the CAFC fans singing the Adams family song the loudest were from NORWICH. ( a family of 4 in the row in front of me )
At Brighton this season one CAFC fan singing "we can see you holding hands" with Passion, is GAY.
The last season we were at Spurs in the Prem, some Charlton fans thought it was funny to sing the "Gassing Song" (5 millions died ). Can't see any humour there.
IF you can't see the difference between the top 2 which have elements of humour even if the Brighton song is passe now; and making a song about mass murder, then Nature(i'm an atheist) help you.
If LGBT feel the need, fine, have your own group.
But the match day experience for me is i don't give a dam about what you do for a living, who you vote for,your views on Religion, Sex, or if you are from Mars.
That's for this forum, where i would be interested to hear about your match day experience if you were from Mars and Gay ! (where do you park the spaceship) and do you want to start your own group or just blend in with the rest of us ?
So who or whatever you are; Just get behind the Boys and make some Noise (copywrite:BDL)
COYR
Perhaps you should "give a dam" about how others might react to the things you say/sing at a game because the "match day experience" isn't just for you.
I don’t think it is a bad thing not to give a dam about what other fans do and are. More people shouldn’t give a dam. It is tolerance. We don’t know the reason the group was formed, it may just be a means for likeminded people to meet up. I don’t care as that is up to them. If there isn’t a problem at Charlton with homophobia, great. If there is, I do give a dam, and maybe members of this group are more likely to experience it than us and can help to address it. All good, and I wish them all the best and support them. I will now continue not to give a dam about their existence, as should everybody else it doesn’t affect. Let them get on with their lives and get on with yours and don’t judge or preach to them.
Muttley - religion isn't always the motivating factor. The most vocal opponents of LGBT rights & equality are generally speaking from a religious corner but there is plenty of disquiet towards the progression of gay marriage and gay adoption rights and the normality of LGBT. Some people see it as 'unnatural' or they just are uncomfortable by it, even though they are atheists or just have no religious affiliation/opinion. There is a lot of stigma around someone 'coming out' to their parents and I think that is largely due to their parents' expectations of what they want their son and daughter to do rather than their religious beliefs. I'm not saying any of the stigma still felt by society towards LGBTs is justified but it is there and not all of it is based on religious beliefs.
Coleen Nolan made a good point horribly but I would say that the underlying point has merit - the owners had no issue with the sexual orientation of the customer but they did not want to fulfil an order that was against their religious and political beliefs. The ruling said that the verdict was based on discrimination against sexual orientation and political beliefs. This is news to me - that a commercial entity cannot refuse to do something on political grounds. This does have somewhat wider ramifications - but I doubt anyone will actually notice.
The main thing is this though - how can a bakery be fined for refusing to produce a cake that has a pro-gay marriage slogan on it, but the N. Irish Executive can refuse to legislate to actually allow gay marriage? How is the former illegal but the latter legal?
At Norwich this season the CAFC fans singing the Adams family song the loudest were from NORWICH. ( a family of 4 in the row in front of me )
At Brighton this season one CAFC fan singing "we can see you holding hands" with Passion, is GAY.
The last season we were at Spurs in the Prem, some Charlton fans thought it was funny to sing the "Gassing Song" (5 millions died ). Can't see any humour there.
IF you can't see the difference between the top 2 which have elements of humour even if the Brighton song is passe now; and making a song about mass murder, then Nature(i'm an atheist) help you.
If LGBT feel the need, fine, have your own group.
But the match day experience for me is i don't give a dam about what you do for a living, who you vote for,your views on Religion, Sex, or if you are from Mars.
That's for this forum, where i would be interested to hear about your match day experience if you were from Mars and Gay ! (where do you park the spaceship) and do you want to start your own group or just blend in with the rest of us ?
So who or whatever you are; Just get behind the Boys and make some Noise (copywrite:BDL)
COYR
Perhaps you should "give a dam" about how others might react to the things you say/sing at a game because the "match day experience" isn't just for you.
I do give a dam if people are offended, but where do we set the Bar?
So Alan Carr and Graham Norton can Camp it up and make a fortune out of being Gay, yet the now boring song about Brighton fans is offensive (Their amount of gay fans is the same as every other club i would imagine)
Can Gay fans please tell me this is offences not straight fans on their behalf.
Have never personally sang any songs about the opposition( not since being an adult) I just encourage CAFC. (not even "sign on" to the northerners)
The point i was making to compare holding hands to the shocking singing of the gassing song to Spurs fans which was about millions of innocent people being murdered is on another level.
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
Abuse of Gay people is wrong. I do know that it wasn't only Jewish people who were Gassed. I just want to hear a gay person state they feel offended by the holding hands song, as i said the gay CAFC fan who sings it, find it amusing and comical. I understand their are straight people who want to be the spokesperson for gay People. But how do you and i know what they take offence at(other than the obvious words)
The Gay bashing that went on in the past and direct Verbal abuse is quite rightly a criminal offence in this Country.
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
I am not familiar with a pink triangle. Maybe everyone else is, but why don't you explain it for us? And maybe that will reveal the irony you refer to.
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
I am not familiar with a pink triangle. Maybe everyone else is, but why don't you explain it for us? And maybe that will reveal the irony you refer to.
Is it like the Bermuda triangle but where only LGBTGYJKGFD people dissapear?
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
I am not familiar with a pink triangle. Maybe everyone else is, but why don't you explain it for us? And maybe that will reveal the irony you refer to.
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
I am not familiar with a pink triangle. Maybe everyone else is, but why don't you explain it for us? And maybe that will reveal the irony you refer to.
Well, I never knew that. Charlton Life can be very enlightening sometimes.
But is it really reasonable to compare insulting chanting by a small minority of footy fans with the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent people, or is that slightly over the top?
In saying that I don't defend homophobic or racist chanting by the way.
On the subject of homophobia at Charlton, this could backfire but I guess someone has to be brave here (this including away games) I've never had any issues, I sit in the north upper and I don't exactly think it's a secret to the people who know me that I'm not straight, (I'm actually engaged to somebody who happens to be transgender ftm) we've both been to games and I've been a season ticket holder for 4 seasons up till now?
The whole Brighton thing is pure banter i would even join in with that, and I've never heard a Charlton fan call a player a poof
You always get people who are stuck in time, that's just life
I personally think the group is a good idea as long as it's not OTT and not overly flamboyant and in everybody's faces, then no issues let them be! personly I have no interest in joining it purely because at the end of the day we go to Charlton to watch football not to try and see who in the stadium is lgbt, or anything else for that matter
Comments
He then asked the guy, if somebody walked into a t shirt printing business owned by a lesbian or gay man, and asked to have a t shirt printed saying "homosexuality is an abomination"
Not illegal, their beliefs, but would that same t shirt printers be able to refuse the business because they didn't like or want to promote that sentiment based on their beliefs.
I got the feeling, although he didn't answer it directly but I got the feeling that the gay group he represented would support the printers...double standards?
The t-shirt seller would not be discriminating against the anti-gay t-shirt buyer if he refused because there is no legal protection for holding hateful views.
A bit off-topic but there is a point here that seemed to go spectacularly over the heads of all those involved. I saw there were two sides to the debate - those who said the cake should be baked because refusing service to homosexuals should be illegal, and those who said they were right to not bake the cake because they should not be forced to do something against the religious beliefs. I have not seen a single person raise this point - they weren't actually refusing to serve the customer because they were gay. They just weren't comfortable with the order they received. I'm surprised that they didn't just refuse to bake it on copyright grounds as I believe the cake was using Sesame Street characters on it? I agree that there's a fine line here but if the gay couple had asked for any other cake, even a wedding cake, I'm sure the bakery would have been happy to process their order. Just some food for thought.
At Norwich this season the CAFC fans singing the Adams family song
the loudest were from NORWICH. ( a family of 4 in the row in front of me )
At Brighton this season one CAFC fan singing "we can see you holding hands"
with Passion, is GAY.
The last season we were at Spurs in the Prem, some Charlton fans thought it was funny to sing the "Gassing Song" (5 millions died ). Can't see any humour there.
IF you can't see the difference between the top 2 which have elements of humour
even if the Brighton song is passe now; and making a song about mass murder, then Nature(i'm an atheist) help you.
If LGBT feel the need, fine, have your own group.
But the match day experience for me is i don't give a dam about what you do for a living, who you vote for,your views on Religion, Sex, or if you are from Mars.
That's for this forum, where i would be interested to hear about your match day experience if you were from Mars and Gay ! (where do you park the spaceship)
and do you want to start your own group or just blend in with the rest of us ?
So who or whatever you are;
Just get behind the Boys and make some Noise (copywrite:BDL)
COYR
I hate the snidey way some bigoted people try to argue against these things with fake reason. Coleen Nolan compared it to IS ordering a cake which is ridiculous. Why is she bothered about IS anyway? I recall when the civil partnership bill was being debated in the House of Commons. Lord Tebbit argued that it was unfair on brothers and sisters living together, when he clearly was opposed to civil partnerships because it was for gay people!
Is there a use for the group – yes, for its members to meet likeminded people (if they want to) and IF and it is an if, there is any homophobic behaviour or issues to highlight it to the club. None of this affects me, other than I am glad that supporters of my club reflect all parts of society. I despise football clubs that are built on bigotry. That is why when asked whether I like Rangers or Celtic more, I say I despise them both equally.
Coleen Nolan made a good point horribly but I would say that the underlying point has merit - the owners had no issue with the sexual orientation of the customer but they did not want to fulfil an order that was against their religious and political beliefs. The ruling said that the verdict was based on discrimination against sexual orientation and political beliefs. This is news to me - that a commercial entity cannot refuse to do something on political grounds. This does have somewhat wider ramifications - but I doubt anyone will actually notice.
The main thing is this though - how can a bakery be fined for refusing to produce a cake that has a pro-gay marriage slogan on it, but the N. Irish Executive can refuse to legislate to actually allow gay marriage? How is the former illegal but the latter legal?
I also realise there is another thread for the bakery case so I'm gonna try to keep any more comments I have to that thread.
So Alan Carr and Graham Norton can Camp it up and make a fortune
out of being Gay, yet the now boring song about Brighton fans is offensive
(Their amount of gay fans is the same as every other club i would imagine)
Can Gay fans please tell me this is offences not straight fans on their behalf.
Have never personally sang any songs about the opposition( not since being an adult) I just encourage CAFC. (not even "sign on" to the northerners)
The point i was making to compare holding hands to the shocking singing of the gassing song to Spurs fans which was about millions of innocent people being murdered is on another level.
Ironic that you dismiss abuse of gay people but then cite the gas chamber hissing.
Have you ever wondered where the pink triangle used by many gay activists originated?
I do know that it wasn't only Jewish people who were Gassed.
I just want to hear a gay person state they feel offended by the holding hands song, as i said the gay CAFC fan who sings it, find it amusing and comical.
I understand their are straight people who want to be the spokesperson for gay People. But how do you and i know what they take offence at(other than the obvious words)
The Gay bashing that went on in the past and direct Verbal abuse is quite rightly a criminal offence in this Country.
Here's some stats for you
http://www.outonthefields.com/infographic-uk.html
Apart from that, the badge is still terrible and what is cisgender?
Well, I never knew that. Charlton Life can be very enlightening sometimes.
But is it really reasonable to compare insulting chanting by a small minority of footy fans with the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent people, or is that slightly over the top?
In saying that I don't defend homophobic or racist chanting by the way.
The whole Brighton thing is pure banter i would even join in with that, and I've never heard a Charlton fan call a player a poof
You always get people who are stuck in time, that's just life
I personally think the group is a good idea as long as it's not OTT and not overly flamboyant and in everybody's faces, then no issues let them be! personly I have no interest in joining it purely because at the end of the day we go to Charlton to watch football not to try and see who in the stadium is lgbt, or anything else for that matter