I have mixed feelings about this appeal. I don’t see it succeeding and as mentioned by a couple of people above, I think it might be just for show, which I think is a bit of a dick move. On the other hand, I understand they want to shine a light on Max getting away with his below the belt behaviour.
I don’t think anyone will come out if this smelling nice. Apart from Hamilton of course, who’s been faultless all weekend.
So, are some now saying that because it wasn’t his intention to have driven him off the road then he’s not guilty of driving him off the road? That seems very odd to me, because intentional or not, that was the net result of his manoeuvre. Does this mean he will get away with a mistake…..which in all fairness and justification, many will describe as palpable recklessness at the very least.
There's no way to prove his intentionally drove him off the circuit, and if you want tough racing then you have to allow drivers to make mistakes without throwing the book at them. We all want to see close racing and overtaking, no driver is going to do that if the punishment for getting it wrong is so steep.
So, are some now saying that because it wasn’t his intention to have driven him off the road then he’s not guilty of driving him off the road? That seems very odd to me, because intentional or not, that was the net result of his manoeuvre. Does this mean he will get away with a mistake…..which in all fairness and justification, many will describe as palpable recklessness at the very least.
There's no way to prove his intentionally drove him off the circuit, and if you want tough racing then you have to allow drivers to make mistakes without throwing the book at them. We all want to see close racing and overtaking, no driver is going to do that if the punishment for getting it wrong is so steep.
You mean except pulling the steering towards him?!
So, are some now saying that because it wasn’t his intention to have driven him off the road then he’s not guilty of driving him off the road? That seems very odd to me, because intentional or not, that was the net result of his manoeuvre. Does this mean he will get away with a mistake…..which in all fairness and justification, many will describe as palpable recklessness at the very least.
There's no way to prove his intentionally drove him off the circuit, and if you want tough racing then you have to allow drivers to make mistakes without throwing the book at them. We all want to see close racing and overtaking, no driver is going to do that if the punishment for getting it wrong is so steep.
You mean except pulling the steering towards him?!
And then again whilst they were off the track?
At what point did he pull the steering towards him?
And if you mean the twitching of the wheel as he's accelerating again once they go off track, then I'm fairly sure you've never watched on board footage of any high powered race car in your entire life and therefore can't comment on such a matter, as the mere concept of oversteer, traction limitation and torque will boggle your mind
There's probably enough there to give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt, but the footage certainly doesn't rule out that he deliberately let himself run a bit too wide - brake a touch too late, turn in a touch too late. Both of those could be down to lack of grip, or a calculated move to ensure Hamilton couldn't get past. Hard for us to say either way.
What plays into it, for me, is that Verstappen does have previous on this - he hit a back marker (Ocon?) at Interlagos when there was simply no reason to get involved in shenanigans, he ran Leclerc off the track in Austria and got away with it a few years ago in an incident that basically set the precedent for the new "'let them race" philosophy of the stewards (notably a philosophy that just didn't exist until Verstappen pulled that move on Leclerc), there was Monza when he hit Hamilton, and then, of course, Silverstone. Hamilton got a penalty at Silverstone but, at worst, he did exactly what Verstappen did here but the difference was a) a higher speed corner and, more crucially, b) Verstappen did not make any effort to stay out of Lewis' way. The reason this didn't end one or both of their races was because Hamilton was alive to the possibility and kept his car out of the way of a crash.
I suspect the fact there wasn't contact was the final deciding factor for the stewards, but I'm not really sure that should come into it.
looking at the footage, I have not changed my view that Verstappen tried to run Hamilton off the track. What I believe is that he was behind and made the gap up in the corner by braking late. He will have known braking late would have meant he would have gone very wide if he didn't know he would completely miss it. And he also knew where Hamilton was.
What helps Verstappen is that we know how he drives, but that can't be part of a decision. Seeing as going into the corner it was Hamilton's it is a good point that he gained an advantage by going off and should have been ordered to give the place back at least. It is irrelevant that Hamilton went off also as he had to to avoid a collision.
The get out solution for the FIA is probably around these lines. Admitting that the new evidence shows that Verstappen should have been ordered to give the place back, but seeing as Hamilton subsequently overtook him, no further action is required other than a telling off for Verstappen. If they fail to do this, they have the problem of legitimising driving that crosses the line which could open a can of worms for them.
Personally, I think a five place grid penalty for the next race would be the correct decision. I would be surprised if that is given though.
I agree with Muttley, there was no attempt to use the apex nor was Max ahead before the corner and only went ahead because he failed to brake, thus running Lewis wide. It has been used countless times (Senna/Prost for example) and should be penalised since it is dangerous at the speed that the two were running. A comparison with how Max approached the corner in previous laps will show clearly what he did. I admit to being biased, I have watched Lewis since his karting days and watched F1 and motor racing since the 60's when I used to cycle down to Brands Hatch. Lewis is and always has been one of the best drivers I have seen.
There has been some actual racing between two incredible drivers this season. I don’t believe the FIA is deliberately ruling against Mercedes’ or Lewis Hamilton. Both teams know the rules and both drivers know the rules and sometimes you have to push it to win.
There has been some actual racing between two incredible drivers this season. I don’t believe the FIA is deliberately ruling against Mercedes’ or Lewis Hamilton. Both teams know the rules and both drivers know the rules and sometimes you have to push it to win.
Great title race.
Push to the limit, yes - but not beyond the limit.
I’m sorry. It I disagree that’s been a part of the racing since it began. Don’t tell me that senna and Schumacher didn’t deliberately wipe people out to gain an advantage.
admittedly now you have to do it in an even less obvious way but to make it all about who has the fastest car for the circuit doesn’t seem like fun to me. Yes the rules are there for a reason and driver safety is the main one. I’m not supporting dangerous driving but sometimes the line between excreting driving and dangerous driving is down to perception, as we have seen with different briefs of the number of incidents we have had this season between the top 2 some adjudged to be predominantly caused by verstappen and some by Hamilton.
I won't tell you they didn't because they clearly did. Forwards used to be able to charge into keepers who had the ball as long as their feet were off the ground too!
On the subject of safety, I was just playing the Saudi track on the F1 game and it seems to me that it will just be an afternoon of safety cars, and perhaps serious injury. It’s slightly mental and suggest it’s odds on that Max and Lewis clash there
On the subject of safety, I was just playing the Saudi track on the F1 game and it seems to me that it will just be an afternoon of safety cars, and perhaps serious injury. It’s slightly mental and suggest it’s odds on that Max and Lewis clash there
a slightly placid Qatar track before then though.
It's mentally fast, but I don't see much overtaking on it either, it's just endless fast corners with little run off.
Losail looks boring, and Abu Dhabi, unless the changes are as life-changing as they claim, is always a crap race.
It is good to look at which team the remaining tracks will suit. We already know from experience that this isn't an exact science but I think it promises to continue to be a tight Championship right to the end. I have been looking up online the last five tracks as it is interesting to see what the recent two races in Mexico and Brazil were called as.
Mexico was called as suiting Red Bull. Well that seems to have been spot on. Brazil was narrowly Red Bull. That seems to have been wrong with Hamilton overcoming very challenging penalties and still winning.
So what is the consensus about the remaining races. Well it was thought that Qatar has nothing about it which suggests an obvious advantage for the high-downforce Red Bull or the low-drag Mercedes. Tyre performance would seem likely to be the overriding differentiator. What freaked out Red Bull in Brazil was that Mercedes' wing wasn't low drag at all. Anyway, it is going to be fascinating to see if Brazil was a one off.
Saudi Arabia has an all new track featuring features 27 corners, mainly very fast sweeps. There is a lot of flat-out running in top gear. It would seem to heavily favour Mercedes with the caveat that they had issues getting temperature into the tyres at Imola at the beginning of a stint. But Mercedes ought to be looking forward to this more than Red Bull.
Finally, Abu Dhabi has been a major Mercedes stronghold, but last year Red Bull and Verstappen dominated. Their major strength was in the tight twists and turns of the final sector – and that was with a car, the RB16, which globally was a lot less competitive relative to the Mercedes than its successor, the RB16B. But the Honda power unit was fresh and the Mercedes on old which could have been a factor. It is a difficult track to call.
These are not my views but what I have found online. There doesn't seem to be a clearly Red Bull friendly track remaining but one clear Mercedes track.
They were saying on the F1 show last night that Mercedes could take a new engine in each of the remaining races and suffer the grid penalty on each, due to the power of them.
They are assuming that the pace differential was down to the new engine Hamilton took I suppose. Whilst this would be a consideration I'm sure, overtaking would have to be factored in. Hamilton has recently taken two new power units and it seems the Mercedes drops off more than the Honda performance wise, but how many races does a Mercedes have in it not to become too tired?
They were saying on the F1 show last night that Mercedes could take a new engine in each of the remaining races and suffer the grid penalty on each, due to the power of them.
is that allowed? I know if you take a new engine you get the penalty so its "allowed" but would a team be allowed to just say we're going to do this every week as the performance outweighs the grid penalty
They were saying on the F1 show last night that Mercedes could take a new engine in each of the remaining races and suffer the grid penalty on each, due to the power of them.
is that allowed? I know if you take a new engine you get the penalty so its "allowed" but would a team be allowed to just say were going to do this every week as the performance outweighs the grid penalty
If it's allowed, it's allowed. Maybe against the spirit of the rules but not forbidden.
Just imagine Horner's reaction if they did that!
I can't see it, although possibly on the last race depending on what happens in the next two.
They were saying on the F1 show last night that Mercedes could take a new engine in each of the remaining races and suffer the grid penalty on each, due to the power of them.
is that allowed? I know if you take a new engine you get the penalty so its "allowed" but would a team be allowed to just say were going to do this every week as the performance outweighs the grid penalty
I'm pretty sure it isn't in their interests to do so. Brazil was a good race to do it and with the other recent engine strengthens Hamilton's power unit position which was a perceived weakness. If they take an engine on the final race, they don't get a further benefit. Whilst performance drops off, two or three races with two newish engines shouldn't be a problem. I think the new Engine for Brazil was a decision for the other races as much as that one. We shall see.
I think if Max is handed a retro penalty, the Mercs will take another ICE for Hamilton at Qatar...It's possible they may do anyway if their speed is looking good during FP1 & FP2. Based on Brazil, this track SHOULD favour them.
As allez said, going by the F1 game I can't see Saudi being big on over taking and grid position is going to be massive. Perhaps not on the same scale as Monaco but the tightness of the track will mean the RBs & Mercs won't want to risk a DNF. Again, should favour the Mercs but anything could happen in qualy and I think this will be key.
Abu Dhabi track layout has changed which should actually favour the speed of the Mercs more, but RBs did massively dominate last year. Tough call as you say.
Providing there are no incidents in Qatar & Saudi...I can actually see Lewis / Max being on equal points going into the final race.
Wouldn't that be great? F1 has been terrific this year. Whilst the Honda engine performance is maintained better, Max has older power units at his disposal and they still drop off to some degree. We don't know but I think Brazil was intended to be Hamilton's last new engine.
Thing that's going to be interesting is how Bottas and Perez are used in the fight . I could see a fair few late tactical pit stops for the fastest lap point if it's held by the rival team.
Thing that's going to be interesting is how Bottas and Perez are used in the fight . I could see a fair few late tactical pit stops for the fastest lap point if it's held by the rival team.
I could imagine MV trying to pressure Perez into taking LH out
Thing that's going to be interesting is how Bottas and Perez are used in the fight . I could see a fair few late tactical pit stops for the fastest lap point if it's held by the rival team.
I could imagine MV trying to pressure Perez into taking LH out
If that were the case (I very much doubt it of course) then I would expect Checo to tell him to f*ck off.
Thing that's going to be interesting is how Bottas and Perez are used in the fight . I could see a fair few late tactical pit stops for the fastest lap point if it's held by the rival team.
I could imaging MV trying to pressure Perez into taking LH out
I do agree he might try something underhand and I know I’m very much in the Hamilton camp, but let’s be honest, Hamilton’s not afraid to get his hands dirty either. If Hamilton is ahead by one point going into the final race, I wouldn’t put it past him to stitch Verstappen up in exactly the same way. It wouldn’t be a good way to win and I wouldn’t be happy about it, but fans who think he’ll be squeaky clean are fooling themselves.
They both straddle the line of acceptable racing, the only differences are that Hamilton is more subtle, less frequent and less of a dick about it. Hopefully he can win fair and square, then he can retain the championship and the moral high ground.
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On the other hand, I understand they want to shine a light on Max getting away with his below the belt behaviour.
I don’t think anyone will come out if this smelling nice.
Apart from Hamilton of course, who’s been faultless all weekend.
And then again whilst they were off the track?
What helps Verstappen is that we know how he drives, but that can't be part of a decision. Seeing as going into the corner it was Hamilton's it is a good point that he gained an advantage by going off and should have been ordered to give the place back at least. It is irrelevant that Hamilton went off also as he had to to avoid a collision.
The get out solution for the FIA is probably around these lines. Admitting that the new evidence shows that Verstappen should have been ordered to give the place back, but seeing as Hamilton subsequently overtook him, no further action is required other than a telling off for Verstappen. If they fail to do this, they have the problem of legitimising driving that crosses the line which could open a can of worms for them.
Personally, I think a five place grid penalty for the next race would be the correct decision. I would be surprised if that is given though.
I admit to being biased, I have watched Lewis since his karting days and watched F1 and motor racing since the 60's when I used to cycle down to Brands Hatch. Lewis is and always has been one of the best drivers I have seen.
The primary purpose of the rules is safety.
admittedly now you have to do it in an even less obvious way but to make it all about who has the fastest car for the circuit doesn’t seem like fun to me. Yes the rules are there for a reason and driver safety is the main one. I’m not supporting dangerous driving but sometimes the line between excreting driving and dangerous driving is down to perception, as we have seen with different briefs of the number of incidents we have had this season between the top 2 some adjudged to be predominantly caused by verstappen and some by Hamilton.
a slightly placid Qatar track before then though.
Losail looks boring, and Abu Dhabi, unless the changes are as life-changing as they claim, is always a crap race.
Mexico was called as suiting Red Bull. Well that seems to have been spot on. Brazil was narrowly Red Bull. That seems to have been wrong with Hamilton overcoming very challenging penalties and still winning.
So what is the consensus about the remaining races. Well it was thought that Qatar has nothing about it which suggests an obvious advantage for the high-downforce Red Bull or the low-drag Mercedes. Tyre performance would seem likely to be the overriding differentiator. What freaked out Red Bull in Brazil was that Mercedes' wing wasn't low drag at all. Anyway, it is going to be fascinating to see if Brazil was a one off.
Saudi Arabia has an all new track featuring features 27 corners, mainly very fast sweeps. There is a lot of flat-out running in top gear. It would seem to heavily favour Mercedes with the caveat that they had issues getting temperature into the tyres at Imola at the beginning of a stint. But Mercedes ought to be looking forward to this more than Red Bull.
Finally, Abu Dhabi has been a major Mercedes stronghold, but last year Red Bull and Verstappen dominated. Their major strength was in the tight twists and turns of the final sector – and that was with a car, the RB16, which globally was a lot less competitive relative to the Mercedes than its successor, the RB16B. But the Honda power unit was fresh and the Mercedes on old which could have been a factor. It is a difficult track to call.
These are not my views but what I have found online. There doesn't seem to be a clearly Red Bull friendly track remaining but one clear Mercedes track.
As allez said, going by the F1 game I can't see Saudi being big on over taking and grid position is going to be massive. Perhaps not on the same scale as Monaco but the tightness of the track will mean the RBs & Mercs won't want to risk a DNF. Again, should favour the Mercs but anything could happen in qualy and I think this will be key.
Abu Dhabi track layout has changed which should actually favour the speed of the Mercs more, but RBs did massively dominate last year. Tough call as you say.
Providing there are no incidents in Qatar & Saudi...I can actually see Lewis / Max being on equal points going into the final race.
If Hamilton is ahead by one point going into the final race, I wouldn’t put it past him to stitch Verstappen up in exactly the same way. It wouldn’t be a good way to win and I wouldn’t be happy about it, but fans who think he’ll be squeaky clean are fooling themselves.
Hopefully he can win fair and square, then he can retain the championship and the moral high ground.