Why don't we all wear tahirts with the same slogan as the banner they can't chuck us all out.
It's a fair point. They will pick off individuals but far less likely to start on larger groups. Same with blocking photos. When people used cameras it was easy to stop them, but with mobile phones it becomes almost impossible, so if they try to stop anyone taking pictures everyone near them should start doing the same.
Stewards work much like bullies do. They will target individuals but are far less brave when it comes to taking on groups. And even the dumber ones are aware the same rules apply to them as to any member of the public, so if they start getting heavy handed they can end up in court and, if registered, lose their jobs.
Stewards at sports grounds are not regulated by the SIA so don't bombard them with inquiries. You want to ask the SGSA instead (Sports Grounds Safety Authority). Www.safetyatsportdgrounds.org.uk.
Hi, I am the mum in question and Josh my son is 25. I also take a young lad who is in residential care to the games who was sitting right next to my son. The first steward grabbed the banner - did not ask for it, and when my son reacted that he was a jobsworth he went off and then came the reinforcements. at the time it seemed like there were loads, they grabbed my son by the neck and tried to haul him out over me and consequently one of the stewards hit me in the face. They were trying to get my son done on an assault charge as one of the stewards claimed that he had assaulted him but the resulting cctv showed that my son had done no wrong, no lifting of hands to ward them off etc and the police said that as he had clearly done nothing wrong why couldnt he be let back in - stewards said no! they said it was because it had been covering advertising but if you look at the photos it barely covers the A of Andrews. but that was not the real reason it was because a certain person had told the club security that if any banners were shown that the owners had to be ejected. I wasnt ejected due to the fact that I had to go back to the young lad I was looking after - the police intervened in that. I will definitely be taking this further no doubt about that - they dont know me once I am riled, as i will not leave it be. At no time until we were in the foyer did they say it was about covering advertising
That shames us all. Sounds very much as if they were primed and waiting for any excuse to pounce 'to teach the others a lesson'. The stewards concerned ought to be disciplined or fired and the club should apologise at the very least. And good on you for not letting it drop.
So what they are saying is that banners that do not cover advertising will be tolerated? OK, let's remember that.
Hi, I am the mum in question and Josh my son is 25. I also take a young lad who is in residential care to the games who was sitting right next to my son. The first steward grabbed the banner - did not ask for it, and when my son reacted that he was a jobsworth he went off and then came the reinforcements. at the time it seemed like there were loads, they grabbed my son by the neck and tried to haul him out over me and consequently one of the stewards hit me in the face. They were trying to get my son done on an assault charge as one of the stewards claimed that he had assaulted him but the resulting cctv showed that my son had done no wrong, no lifting of hands to ward them off etc and the police said that as he had clearly done nothing wrong why couldnt he be let back in - stewards said no! they said it was because it had been covering advertising but if you look at the photos it barely covers the A of Andrews. but that was not the real reason it was because a certain person had told the club security that if any banners were shown that the owners had to be ejected. I wasnt ejected due to the fact that I had to go back to the young lad I was looking after - the police intervened in that. I will definitely be taking this further no doubt about that - they dont know me once I am riled, as i will not leave it be. At no time until we were in the foyer did they say it was about covering advertising
That shames us all. Sounds very much as if they were primed and waiting for any excuse to pounce 'to teach the others a lesson'. The stewards concerned ought to be disciplined or fired and the club should apologise at the very least. And good on you for not letting it drop.
So what they are saying is that banners that do not cover advertising will be tolerated? OK, let's remember that.
Another issue here is that if it were not for the police intervening, a vulnerable person would have been left in the ground unsupported.
Not sure if anyone has posted this......... Taken from the Supporters football federation. in relation to banners/flags. It is a wide ranging, and frankly could be interpreted to ban most banners...... dependent on the person deciding this! It specifically relates to CAFC, as they asked every club in the football premiership and Championship. It states..for instance.........Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political.
Charlton Athletic Yes, provided that permission has been sought in advance of the day and that they do not obstruct any of our advertising, signage, exit routes, or restrict the views of other fans. If there is a sterile area or an empty block of seats the club may permit banners to be placed in the sterile area across the unused seats or empty block. Permission to do so must first be obtained from the club. The club reserve the right to confiscate any flags or banners brought into the stadium without being approved prior to entry. All banners / flags measuring more than 150cm x 150cm should be made from fire-retardant material and a fire certificate must be produced. Proof of certification may be required whenever they are brought into the stadium. Banners/flags on poles are not permitted unless the pole is under 1metre in length, and no bigger than 7mm in diameter They should speak to the Safety Officer or his deputy before the day of the game, to seek permission. Anything racial, homophobic or of a discriminatory, defamatory or inflammatory nature. Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political. Anything that could be deemed obscene. - See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/what-are-the-rules-for-flags-and-banners-at-football-premier-league-football-league#Charlton
Private prosecution is pointless. Call 101 explain you've been assaulted (numerous times) a theft (or two has been committed) and explain that you would support a prosecution and are willing to give a statement. Explain the whole thing is on cctv and they also assaulted your mother. The police are duty bound to investigate. It's really that simple
What's the betting the CCTV has accidentally been erased
Maybe, but there are witnesses to the incident who are prepared to back up Gwen and her son. Ringing 101 and reporting the incident will one of the first things to take forward after this incident. No point sending tweets to the police about it if the incident has not been reported in the first place.
Not sure if anyone has posted this......... Taken from the Supporters football federation. in relation to banners/flags. It is a wide ranging, and frankly could be interpreted It specifically relates to CAFC, as they asked every club in the football premiership and Championship. It states..for instance.........Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political.
Charlton Athletic Yes, provided that permission has been sought in advance of the day and that they do not obstruct any of our advertising, signage, exit routes, or restrict the views of other fans. If there is a sterile area or an empty block of seats the club may permit banners to be placed in the sterile area across the unused seats or empty block. Permission to do so must first be obtained from the club. The club reserve the right to confiscate any flags or banners brought into the stadium without being approved prior to entry. All banners / flags measuring more than 150cm x 150cm should be made from fire-retardant material and a fire certificate must be produced. Proof of certification may be required whenever they are brought into the stadium. Banners/flags on poles are not permitted unless the pole is under 1metre in length, and no bigger than 7mm in diameter They should speak to the Safety Officer or his deputy before the day of the game, to seek permission. Anything racial, homophobic or of a discriminatory, defamatory or inflammatory nature. Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political. Anything that could be deemed obscene. - See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/what-are-the-rules-for-flags-and-banners-at-football-premier-league-football-league#Charlton
The major flaw in this process is that the club won't actually communicate with the plebs that we are. And I suspect they would refuse any such request at the moment even were they to break cover and speak.
Not sure if anyone has posted this......... Taken from the Supporters football federation. in relation to banners/flags. It is a wide ranging, and frankly could be interpreted It specifically relates to CAFC, as they asked every club in the football premiership and Championship. It states..for instance.........Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political.
Charlton Athletic Yes, provided that permission has been sought in advance of the day and that they do not obstruct any of our advertising, signage, exit routes, or restrict the views of other fans. If there is a sterile area or an empty block of seats the club may permit banners to be placed in the sterile area across the unused seats or empty block. Permission to do so must first be obtained from the club. The club reserve the right to confiscate any flags or banners brought into the stadium without being approved prior to entry. All banners / flags measuring more than 150cm x 150cm should be made from fire-retardant material and a fire certificate must be produced. Proof of certification may be required whenever they are brought into the stadium. Banners/flags on poles are not permitted unless the pole is under 1metre in length, and no bigger than 7mm in diameter They should speak to the Safety Officer or his deputy before the day of the game, to seek permission. Anything racial, homophobic or of a discriminatory, defamatory or inflammatory nature. Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political. Anything that could be deemed obscene. - See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/what-are-the-rules-for-flags-and-banners-at-football-premier-league-football-league#Charlton
The major flaw in this process is that the club won't actually communicate with the plebs that we are. And I suspect they would refuse any such request at the moment even were they to break cover and speak.
Very much so, I am just the messenger, Of course if several fans got together and produced an A2 poster spelling out 'b l a c k & w h i t e' a letter on each you could you could claim to be supporting 'racial harmony'. It would need some co-ordination, but I am sure there are ways around the problem. others could hold out there black and white scarfs in support.
Or just a blank red card........and hold it out like a referee.....
I am sure there will be some good ideas that can be thought up.
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
I agree they certainly should be qualified and be employed people who should know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are – but are we certain that's the case?
I've no direct knowledge but a poster earlier seemed to know that what's been referred to as the 'snatch squad' are provided by an agency run by a firefighter called John and that most of them are firefighters or prison officers.
As well as the suggested assault in removing the banner I'm concerned about the suggestion that these stewards confiscated season tickets. Does this mean that they searched people or that they asked them to hand over their season tickets and the individuals complied?
Personally I wouldn't give my name or hand over anything demanded by these people. If they wanted to do more than politely escort me off the premises I'd want them to go and get a police officer – particularly if what they were complaining of was just displaying a banner or dropping leaflets.
I know 'John',he retired from the fire brigade quite a few years ago now and to my knowledge,he doesn't run an agency,he's employed by Charlton as the stadium safety officer. This could of course have changed but as far as I know,the blue bib security teams are all prison officers. Many years ago I used to work for Goldrange and the fire fighters who worked for them were mainly there for their 1st aid skills as much as anything else. Some were part of the security teams but left any ejection orders to the prison guys as that was their area of 'expertise'.
Jut had a chat to my mate who sits next to me at work and he is one of the Gowers' family friends oddly enough. Big Charlton supporters and apparently the steward continued to assault them once they has been thrown out.
- Presumably, the Ben and Seb flag (which in fairness has always been a fixture) not being taken away is fair enough
- We seem to be one of the only clubs to have a policy about banners and ownership in particular (offence/neutrality etc seems to be covered by many) (Coventry and P'boro have similar policies and that appears to be it)
Here are my thoughts regarding what we could do in terms of banners:
- Actually physically wear them when going into the ground (like wear a big coat, underneath which is a bedsheet or whatever - you'll just look fat when you come in but oh well)
- Get a group of like-minded individuals all in one place, and have a load of people holding hands/forming a wall around the person/s with the banner, so that any attempt to remove the banner or break the circle can be construed as unnecessary force. Not sure on the legality or policy side of things here but maybe someone can advise.
- Do it over seats rather than advertising where possible, if there is clear space and in terms of common sense no Health and Safety issue - again, I'm not the most clued up on this sort of thing
- Some form of civil disobedience should stewards get heavy handed
I dunno, there's probably better ideas out there but this might be a prompt for some sort of decent plan of action... Nothing violent; nothing particularly inflammatory though.
I can see why protest banners were removed. It's their club, after all, and why tolerate displays against them. They can't stop singing or people standing up but they can act in other areas. So we need to try to stay one step ahead of them, all the while retaining the moral high ground. But if they do start using stewards as enforcers, we make sure we remain reasonable, non abusive and film and photograph them and their behaviour at every turn. Nothing the media likes more than a elderly lifelong supporters or young teenager being bullied by a thug in a high-vis jacket.
I imagine Seb's flag has a fire certificate etc and I would also imagine he's had the conversation with the club.
Here are some other clubs' stances on it (in alphabetical order) :
Barnsley - Only banners which show support of the team are allowed. Any other wording must be agreed by the club in advance of the game
Birmingham - Banners must not contain foul language, be defamatory or contain political or offensive slogans and the club reserves the right to turn banners away if the content is felt to be offensive in anyway
Cambridge - Messages/ banners should be in support of the club not protests
Cardiff - Banners that are likely to cause alarm or distress to other groups of supporters and/or either participating clubs, its directors and/or staff will not be allowed
Not sure if anyone has posted this......... Taken from the Supporters football federation. in relation to banners/flags. It is a wide ranging, and frankly could be interpreted to ban most banners...... dependent on the person deciding this! It specifically relates to CAFC, as they asked every club in the football premiership and Championship. It states..for instance.........Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political.
Charlton Athletic Yes, provided that permission has been sought in advance of the day and that they do not obstruct any of our advertising, signage, exit routes, or restrict the views of other fans. If there is a sterile area or an empty block of seats the club may permit banners to be placed in the sterile area across the unused seats or empty block. Permission to do so must first be obtained from the club. The club reserve the right to confiscate any flags or banners brought into the stadium without being approved prior to entry. All banners / flags measuring more than 150cm x 150cm should be made from fire-retardant material and a fire certificate must be produced. Proof of certification may be required whenever they are brought into the stadium. Banners/flags on poles are not permitted unless the pole is under 1metre in length, and no bigger than 7mm in diameter They should speak to the Safety Officer or his deputy before the day of the game, to seek permission. Anything racial, homophobic or of a discriminatory, defamatory or inflammatory nature. Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political. Anything that could be deemed obscene. - See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/what-are-the-rules-for-flags-and-banners-at-football-premier-league-football-league#Charlton
What those rules don't say is that the club (or it's representatives) have any right to assault anyone in the process of confiscating it! One would assume that reasonable force would be required to remove someone - and for something like this grabbing them around the neck isn't reasonable. Had it been a fight, they would probably be justified (as would any other person who might make a citizen's arrest. For someone refusing to comply I would expect stewards to get the duty police officers to challenge and remove the person. I'd imagine that they could arrest at that point for something like breach of the peace or something under football stadium laws. That would then be reasonable.
I do hope that justice prevails here and that, as the club have allowed a steward to blow this out of proportion, so we see a proportionate response against the club. If they wanted to force a "bring it on" mentality with supporters, it looks like they may be getting it.
I am willing to take one for the team. I am a small guy, look about 15 (although I am actually 20). I am willing to hold a nice big banner and if they approach me will stand between them and it, in an unprovocative way hands behind my back but unmoving. Then at the first sign of contact I am falling down the stairs/ over the seats. Serious injuries may follow!
I have some good news and bad news, canters ?
The good news is after seeing your CV, the club are prepared to put you straight into the 18 man squad for Saturday.
The bad news for the rest of us is that, the football team you play for on a Sunday in Kent, Didn't put you on even when they went down to 10 men, and you were the only sub !
Don't worry about the wording on banners don't worry about people wanting to take them down, let them just don't let anyone get thrown out by anyone other than old bill for bringing them In to the ground. Of its not offensive if it's not inciting a reaction from those in the ground that may cause a disturbance then let them take the banner but look after our own, they can't get someone out if everyone stops them
Purely out of interest, I contacted the Football Supporters Federation to find out what the rules are on stewards man-handling people and whether they lawfully can, as they are not warranted police officers.
Amanda from the federation, email address amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk would like to get in contact with you and may be able to assist.
Purely out of interest, I contacted the Football Supporters Federation to found out what the rules are on Stewards man-handling people and whether they lawfully can, as they are not warranted police officers.
Amanda from the federation, email address amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk would like to get in contact with you and may be able to assist.
Cracking job there. A very interesting last line too.
No steward can physically lay hands upon you to eject without you having the right to physically lay your hands on them to refuse, it's all about proportion, for instance I can not punch the steward on the chin for trying to remove me, I could however remove his hands using force to do so,
They are not police they are no good bully pricks, don't be afraid of them stand up to them and make them contact the police to assist them to remove you,
Purely out of interest, I contacted the Football Supporters Federation to find out what the rules are on stewards man-handling people and whether they lawfully can, as they are not warranted police officers.
Amanda from the federation, email address amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk would like to get in contact with you and may be able to assist.
I have the suspicion that Amanda might have to get involve in a few more cases involving stewards and fans as the protest continues, certainly the police will have to.
No steward can physically lay hands upon you to eject without you having the right to physically lay your hands on them to refuse, it's all about proportion, for instance I can not punch the steward on the chin for trying to remove me, I could however remove his hands using force to do so,
They are not police they are no good bully pricks, don't be afraid of them stand up to them and make them contact the police to assist them to remove you,
This is absolutely right, you could have the steward on assault charges and sue the club if necessary.
The law states that reasonable force may be used but only when other options have been exhausted or someone was at risk. They can't prove either, you have a very good case here @Gwen.
How much would it cost out of the protest fund to get a few dozen banners made with all the criteria needed to make them allowable?
Purely out of interest, I contacted the Football Supporters Federation to find out what the rules are on stewards man-handling people and whether they lawfully can, as they are not warranted police officers.
Amanda from the federation, email address amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk would like to get in contact with you and may be able to assist.
I have the suspicion that Amanda might have to get involve in a few more cases involving stewards and fans as the protest continues, certainly the police will have to.
I have a feeling the stewards may not wish to do this Many times more in the forth coming games due to the response they will get
Comments
Stewards work much like bullies do. They will target individuals but are far less brave when it comes to taking on groups. And even the dumber ones are aware the same rules apply to them as to any member of the public, so if they start getting heavy handed they can end up in court and, if registered, lose their jobs.
So what they are saying is that banners that do not cover advertising will be tolerated? OK, let's remember that.
Taken from the Supporters football federation. in relation to banners/flags.
It is a wide ranging, and frankly could be interpreted to ban most banners...... dependent on the person deciding this!
It specifically relates to CAFC, as they asked every club in the football premiership and Championship.
It states..for instance.........Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political.
Charlton Athletic
Yes, provided that permission has been sought in advance of the day and that they do not obstruct any of our advertising, signage, exit routes, or restrict the views of other fans. If there is a sterile area or an empty block of seats the club may permit banners to be placed in the sterile area across the unused seats or empty block. Permission to do so must first be obtained from the club. The club reserve the right to confiscate any flags or banners brought into the stadium without being approved prior to entry.
All banners / flags measuring more than 150cm x 150cm should be made from fire-retardant material and a fire certificate must be produced. Proof of certification may be required whenever they are brought into the stadium. Banners/flags on poles are not permitted unless the pole is under 1metre in length, and no bigger than 7mm in diameter
They should speak to the Safety Officer or his deputy before the day of the game, to seek permission.
Anything racial, homophobic or of a discriminatory, defamatory or inflammatory nature. Anything that we may feel is controversial to either of the teams or their ownerships. Anything political. Anything that could be deemed obscene.
- See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/what-are-the-rules-for-flags-and-banners-at-football-premier-league-football-league#Charlton
Of course if several fans got together and produced an A2 poster spelling out 'b l a c k & w h i t e' a letter on each you could you could claim to be supporting 'racial harmony'.
It would need some co-ordination, but I am sure there are ways around the problem. others could hold out there black and white scarfs in support.
Or just a blank red card........and hold it out like a referee.....
I am sure there will be some good ideas that can be thought up.
- We seem to be one of the only clubs to have a policy about banners and ownership in particular (offence/neutrality etc seems to be covered by many) (Coventry and P'boro have similar policies and that appears to be it)
Here are my thoughts regarding what we could do in terms of banners:
- Actually physically wear them when going into the ground (like wear a big coat, underneath which is a bedsheet or whatever - you'll just look fat when you come in but oh well)
- Get a group of like-minded individuals all in one place, and have a load of people holding hands/forming a wall around the person/s with the banner, so that any attempt to remove the banner or break the circle can be construed as unnecessary force. Not sure on the legality or policy side of things here but maybe someone can advise.
- Do it over seats rather than advertising where possible, if there is clear space and in terms of common sense no Health and Safety issue - again, I'm not the most clued up on this sort of thing
- Some form of civil disobedience should stewards get heavy handed
I dunno, there's probably better ideas out there but this might be a prompt for some sort of decent plan of action... Nothing violent; nothing particularly inflammatory though.
Here are some other clubs' stances on it (in alphabetical order) :
Barnsley - Only banners which show support of the team are allowed. Any other wording must be agreed by the club in advance of the game
Birmingham - Banners must not contain foul language, be defamatory or contain political or offensive slogans and the club reserves the right to turn banners away if the content is felt to be offensive in anyway
Cambridge - Messages/ banners should be in support of the club not protests
Cardiff - Banners that are likely to cause alarm or distress to other groups of supporters and/or either participating clubs, its directors and/or staff will not be allowed
And then I stopped looking......
One would assume that reasonable force would be required to remove someone - and for something like this grabbing them around the neck isn't reasonable. Had it been a fight, they would probably be justified (as would any other person who might make a citizen's arrest.
For someone refusing to comply I would expect stewards to get the duty police officers to challenge and remove the person. I'd imagine that they could arrest at that point for something like breach of the peace or something under football stadium laws. That would then be reasonable.
I do hope that justice prevails here and that, as the club have allowed a steward to blow this out of proportion, so we see a proportionate response against the club.
If they wanted to force a "bring it on" mentality with supporters, it looks like they may be getting it.
The good news is after seeing your CV, the club are prepared to put you straight into the 18 man squad for Saturday.
The bad news for the rest of us is that, the football team you play for on a Sunday in Kent, Didn't put you on even when they went down to 10 men,
and you were the only sub !
I wonder what the reaction would be? : - )
The banner would go on a wall in Duchatelet bunker.
After being out injured for 18 months,(two weeks said the CAFC doc) you would then be offered a place in the boardroom.(Again)
Providing I didn't eat them all first, I'll bring you choccies in intensive care.
Purely out of interest, I contacted the Football Supporters Federation to find out what the rules are on stewards man-handling people and whether they lawfully can, as they are not warranted police officers.
Amanda from the federation, email address amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk would like to get in contact with you and may be able to assist.
They are not police they are no good bully pricks, don't be afraid of them stand up to them and make them contact the police to assist them to remove you,
The law states that reasonable force may be used but only when other options have been exhausted or someone was at risk. They can't prove either, you have a very good case here @Gwen.
How much would it cost out of the protest fund to get a few dozen banners made with all the criteria needed to make them allowable?