I don't imagine the club are hiring people off the street to be stewards. It's been well discussed previously that they are Belmarsh screws.
What is Moonlighting anyway - aside from that great 80s series ? People can have 2 jobs can't they ?
Permission is needed and is ultimately at the discretion of your Governor. Generally the second job must not conflict with your duties as a Prison Officer.
A banner protest all over the ground is a great idea, but how about one of the huge flags like the 'Killer' one (I think) that nearly all the Covered End or stands could all pass round? Nobody could be ejected for holding it as we would all be holding it!
Getting it in the ground without anyone noticing might be tricky
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
Since I took early retirement, I've done a lot of stewarding - the "orange bib, toilets are over there, sir" kind not the "blue bib security" guys who deal with ejections etc" I hasten to add! (although I certainly work closely with the blue bib boys). And it's important to remember the difference between the two types of stewards.
Anyone who does stewarding should be told early on in their training that having a stewarding badge does not give you freedom to lay hands on a customer. (And frankly, in my experience, the orange bib type of stewards wouldn't want to do that anyway!) "Touch" someone and you are opening yourself up to an assault charge.
For the "blue bib" guys, the general rule is that they can use force that is reasonable and necessary in the circumstances. Unfortunately words like reasonable and necessary tend not to get defined but it's pretty clear from my experience that hitting someone (as the lady above claims she was) when purely a verbal dispute has arisen would be inappropriate - as a general rule force should only be used if the security guy felt in danger himself.
The lady and her son really should take this matter up with the club and ask for the matter to be investigated if they were assaulted and feel that they posed no danger to the security guy. Do we have any solicitors on here who might be willing to help her compose a letter - if not, could our "fighting fund" be used to get her some professional advice? It could even be that we try and fund a private prosecution of the steward if it seems appropriate - I would certainly throw some more notes into the fund if that was thought appropriate.
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
I agree they certainly should be qualified and be employed people who should know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are – but are we certain that's the case?
I've no direct knowledge but a poster earlier seemed to know that what's been referred to as the 'snatch squad' are provided by an agency run by a firefighter called John and that most of them are firefighters or prison officers.
As well as the suggested assault in removing the banner I'm concerned about the suggestion that these stewards confiscated season tickets. Does this mean that they searched people or that they asked them to hand over their season tickets and the individuals complied?
Personally I wouldn't give my name or hand over anything demanded by these people. If they wanted to do more than politely escort me off the premises I'd want them to go and get a police officer – particularly if what they were complaining of was just displaying a banner or dropping leaflets.
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
I agree they certainly should be qualified and be employed people who should know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are – but are we certain that's the case?
I've no direct knowledge but a poster earlier seemed to know that what's been referred to as the 'snatch squad' are provided by an agency run by a firefighter called John and that most of them are firefighters or prison officers.
As well as the suggested assault in removing the banner I'm concerned about the suggestion that these stewards confiscated season tickets. Does this mean that they searched people or that they asked them to hand over their season tickets and the individuals complied?
Personally I wouldn't give my name or hand over anything demanded by these people. If they wanted to do more than politely escort me off the premises I'd want them to go and get a police officer – particularly if what they were complaining of was just displaying a banner or dropping leaflets.
From my experience as part of the Safety Advisory Group at the Valley (albeit some years ago) they have to have the required training as part of the club's license to host matches. Since it is the same very competent people running that part of the operation then as now I doubt that has changed.
Hi, I am the mum in question and Josh my son is 25. I also take a young lad who is in residential care to the games who was sitting right next to my son. The first steward grabbed the banner - did not ask for it, and when my son reacted that he was a jobsworth he went off and then came the reinforcements. at the time it seemed like there were loads, they grabbed my son by the neck and tried to haul him out over me and consequently one of the stewards hit me in the face. They were trying to get my son done on an assault charge as one of the stewards claimed that he had assaulted him but the resulting cctv showed that my son had done no wrong, no lifting of hands to ward them off etc and the police said that as he had clearly done nothing wrong why couldnt he be let back in - stewards said no! they said it was because it had been covering advertising but if you look at the photos it barely covers the A of Andrews. but that was not the real reason it was because a certain person had told the club security that if any banners were shown that the owners had to be ejected. I wasnt ejected due to the fact that I had to go back to the young lad I was looking after - the police intervened in that. I will definitely be taking this further no doubt about that - they dont know me once I am riled, as i will not leave it be. At no time until we were in the foyer did they say it was about covering advertising
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
Fair enough. Wasn't trying to say they are employed by the same ones who employ the bar staff, just that RD likes to do things on the cheap and wondered if he was using the same tactic to recruit stewards or should that be bouncers now?
Well, they employ bar staff who have no idea what they are doing, presumably because they're cheap, so guess they do the same with stewards? Should be investigated!
All the stewards will be qualified. They aren't employed by the catering firm but by people who know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are.
I agree they certainly should be qualified and be employed people who should know what they are doing and what the legal requirements are – but are we certain that's the case?
I've no direct knowledge but a poster earlier seemed to know that what's been referred to as the 'snatch squad' are provided by an agency run by a firefighter called John and that most of them are firefighters or prison officers.
As well as the suggested assault in removing the banner I'm concerned about the suggestion that these stewards confiscated season tickets. Does this mean that they searched people or that they asked them to hand over their season tickets and the individuals complied?
Personally I wouldn't give my name or hand over anything demanded by these people. If they wanted to do more than politely escort me off the premises I'd want them to go and get a police officer – particularly if what they were complaining of was just displaying a banner or dropping leaflets.
From my experience as part of the Safety Advisory Group at the Valley (albeit some years ago) they have to have the required training as part of the club's license to host matches. Since it is the same very competent people running that part of the operation then as now I doubt that has changed.
The problem could be, that as with the widely publicised problems with 'Site Safety Certificates' for building work and 'Track Safety' on the railways, the process of obtaining the relevant certificates may not be what it ought to be.
But whatever, if these individuals were doing some of the things that have been reported it would seem they may well have been exceeding the limited powers they have.
Stewarding got a little bit 'pushy' literally on one of the flight of stairs down from upper west as lots of fans were recording the protests. Nothing too bad but not pleasant all the same.
It was obvious that the regime want to prevent us getting images out to a wider audience. We are getting to them people.
I felt though that the protest was a muted and we are likely to loose impetus unless a way can be found to keep interest in the after match protest going. It could just wilt away or frustrated fans will raise the anti with lobbing missiles.
Gwen, as soon as you can write down a moment by moment factual account of what you remember happening. try to remember as exactly as possible what words were spoken and by whom, and try to include names where you have an idea of them. I would avoid any opinion in this account, but make it your record of events with as much detail as you can clearly remember.
What right do the stewards have to take his season tkt. That's a club decision if they wish to ban a fan.
The season ticket belongs to the club. It's in the terms and conditions.
The stewards can ban him but they can take the ticket.
Physically search him and remove the season ticket from his pocket or wallet (possibly by force while being restrained) or just ask him to hand it over?
I would be amazed if these "blue-bib" guys were not SIA accredited. We could try and find out but i suspect they will be.
But in some ways that is not the important issue. The key issue is whether the "blue-bib" guy used force that was NOT reasonable and necessary. Reading Gwen's comments above, then I say again that based on my experience, if Gwen and her son were not using or threatening violence in any way, then Gwen being hit in the face is not an appropriate use of force. On the face of it, there could be an assault charge awaiting the security guy who hit Gwen.
If the incident is on CCTV as well, it should not be difficult to ascertain whether unreasonable force was used.
Hi, I am the mum in question and Josh my son is 25. I also take a young lad who is in residential care to the games who was sitting right next to my son. The first steward grabbed the banner - did not ask for it, and when my son reacted that he was a jobsworth he went off and then came the reinforcements. at the time it seemed like there were loads, they grabbed my son by the neck and tried to haul him out over me and consequently one of the stewards hit me in the face. They were trying to get my son done on an assault charge as one of the stewards claimed that he had assaulted him but the resulting cctv showed that my son had done no wrong, no lifting of hands to ward them off etc and the police said that as he had clearly done nothing wrong why couldnt he be let back in - stewards said no! they said it was because it had been covering advertising but if you look at the photos it barely covers the A of Andrews. but that was not the real reason it was because a certain person had told the club security that if any banners were shown that the owners had to be ejected. I wasnt ejected due to the fact that I had to go back to the young lad I was looking after - the police intervened in that. I will definitely be taking this further no doubt about that - they dont know me once I am riled, as i will not leave it be. At no time until we were in the foyer did they say it was about covering advertising
Thanks Gwen, it's good to hear what happened directly from you. That's really disappointing to hear, and I must say I was disgusted watching it from the West stand.
It may not be a popular view on here at times, but it sounds like the Police were actually pretty good in their response. Pretty shocking that they had to intervene to allow you back in to be with the young lad you were looking after, and even more ridiculous that despite them clearly agreeing with you regarding the action of the stewards - he was still ejected. I think this should be highlighted with the club.
Very interesting to hear that anyone with a banner will be ejected now, if that's the case then I think this is perhaps something we need to tackle on a larger scale. Multiple banners popping up will be a nightmare to deal with.
PTS certs are usually checked on the railways each shift or were in my days in that industry, precisely because the press got wind of a few cowboy labour agencies supplying unqualified staff from pubs. We operated a licence check on all sites when contract labour was used (most times).
I have also worked in the security industry and know that the companies rely on the supply agencies to check and many don't. Just because someone is a prison "officer" does not automatically qualify them to be an SIA licenced door steward. The roles are different.
Stewarding got a little bit 'pushy' literally on one of the flight of stairs down from upper west as lots of fans were recording the protests. Nothing too bad but not pleasant all the same.
It was obvious that the regime want to prevent us getting images out to a wider audience. We are getting to them people.
I felt though that the protest was a muted and we are likely to loose impetus unless a way can be found to keep interest in the after match protest going. It could just wilt away or frustrated fans will raise the anti with lobbing missiles.
Yes. It's clear the club have also issued orders to stop filming/photography of the protests: there was someone moved on inside the building when he tried to film it through the windows. Plus the blinds were down in the publicly accessible windows as soon as the protests commenced.
Banning filming/photography as well as banners suggests they're getting a bit worried about this.
What a sad state of affairs. Gwen's previous input into this forum was 2 years ago asking for patience and to see what would happen under the new owner. Now she has been hit on the face by a steward. The club is rotten to the core. Meire, Murrey Dochatelet you must be so proud.
What right do the stewards have to take his season tkt. That's a club decision if they wish to ban a fan.
The season ticket belongs to the club. It's in the terms and conditions.
The stewards can ban him but they can take the ticket.
Physically search him and remove the season ticket from his pocket or wallet (possibly by force while being restrained) or just ask him to hand it over?
Private prosecution is pointless. Call 101 explain you've been assaulted (numerous times) a theft (or two has been committed) and explain that you would support a prosecution and are willing to give a statement. Explain the whole thing is on cctv and they also assaulted your mother. The police are duty bound to investigate. It's really that simple
I view of what happen yesterday l personally suggest signs should be made from the fund of CARD and sold to us and we hold them up in the ground anyone like a Steward touching me and l will take them to court. We are entitled to show our discontent against this bloody regime
Richard Cawley tweeted he was being pushed by stewards as he was trying to film last night around 5 pm, I posted his tweet on the match thread, Page 18.
What right do the stewards have to take his season tkt. That's a club decision if they wish to ban a fan.
The season ticket belongs to the club. It's in the terms and conditions.
The stewards can ban him but they can take the ticket.
Physically search him and remove the season ticket from his pocket or wallet (possibly by force while being restrained) or just ask him to hand it over?
No one except ob can physically search you,
You haven'y been to games for a while i take it, Millwall and Palace away. when everyone had a quick frisk, from bog standard security guys or even to the BBC or Wimbledon or the Airport when after i, like others set the alarm off after walking through the Detector frame was frisked with the small metal detector. (i must of swallowed some money from a home made christmas pud which then took a wrong turning and then got wedged inside !))
Bizarrely at Wimbledon the guy was more hands on and was near the mark as he didn't have the small hand held detector.
If it got to be a more invasive search, like being told to drop your strides, bend over, and think of England, then make sure it's the old bill or a custom officer or else ! plus only in a darken room unless you want to go viral on social media. (or there pills you can take )
What right do the stewards have to take his season tkt. That's a club decision if they wish to ban a fan.
The season ticket belongs to the club. It's in the terms and conditions.
The stewards can ban him but they can take the ticket.
Physically search him and remove the season ticket from his pocket or wallet (possibly by force while being restrained) or just ask him to hand it over?
No one except ob can physically search you,
Unless they make you agree to it before entry perhaps, like going in to a nightclub? Not too sure - but could be part of the T&Cs on the ticket?
Either way, I personally hate it when I get some jobsworth trying to go through my stuff because he thinks he's really a police officer. Happened in a local supermarket a few years ago when someone asked to go through my shopping, a quick "No thanks, I'm alright cheers." seemed to throw him off until it was too late and I'd already walked out.
Richard Cawley tweeted he was being pushed by stewards as he was trying to film last night around 5 pm, I posted his tweet on the match thread, Page 18.
Even the press are being hassled, as I say, it sounds like they're shitting it at the moment.
Private prosecution is pointless. Call 101 explain you've been assaulted (numerous times) a theft (or two has been committed) and explain that you would support a prosecution and are willing to give a statement. Explain the whole thing is on cctv and they also assaulted your mother. The police are duty bound to investigate. It's really that simple
One would also expect it's quite an easy win for the police if they stepped in; everything is on CCTV and there's numerous witnesses - including other officers who intervened. It's been reported, so it's best to get it dealt with to tick off and get a cheap target covered.
Comments
conflict with your duties as a Prison Officer.
Anyone who does stewarding should be told early on in their training that having a stewarding badge does not give you freedom to lay hands on a customer. (And frankly, in my experience, the orange bib type of stewards wouldn't want to do that anyway!) "Touch" someone and you are opening yourself up to an assault charge.
For the "blue bib" guys, the general rule is that they can use force that is reasonable and necessary in the circumstances. Unfortunately words like reasonable and necessary tend not to get defined but it's pretty clear from my experience that hitting someone (as the lady above claims she was) when purely a verbal dispute has arisen would be inappropriate - as a general rule force should only be used if the security guy felt in danger himself.
The lady and her son really should take this matter up with the club and ask for the matter to be investigated if they were assaulted and feel that they posed no danger to the security guy. Do we have any solicitors on here who might be willing to help her compose a letter - if not, could our "fighting fund" be used to get her some professional advice? It could even be that we try and fund a private prosecution of the steward if it seems appropriate - I would certainly throw some more notes into the fund if that was thought appropriate.
I've no direct knowledge but a poster earlier seemed to know that what's been referred to as the 'snatch squad' are provided by an agency run by a firefighter called John and that most of them are firefighters or prison officers.
As well as the suggested assault in removing the banner I'm concerned about the suggestion that these stewards confiscated season tickets. Does this mean that they searched people or that they asked them to hand over their season tickets and the individuals complied?
Personally I wouldn't give my name or hand over anything demanded by these people. If they wanted to do more than politely escort me off the premises I'd want them to go and get a police officer – particularly if what they were complaining of was just displaying a banner or dropping leaflets.
That's a club decision if they wish to ban a fan.
The stewards can't ban him but they can take the ticket.
But whatever, if these individuals were doing some of the things that have been reported it would seem they may well have been exceeding the limited powers they have.
Nothing too bad but not pleasant all the same.
It was obvious that the regime want to prevent us getting images out to a wider audience. We are getting to them people.
I felt though that the protest was a muted and we are likely to loose impetus unless a way can be found to keep interest in the after match protest going. It could just wilt away or frustrated fans will raise the anti with lobbing missiles.
I would avoid any opinion in this account, but make it your record of events with as much detail as you can clearly remember.
But in some ways that is not the important issue. The key issue is whether the "blue-bib" guy used force that was NOT reasonable and necessary. Reading Gwen's comments above, then I say again that based on my experience, if Gwen and her son were not using or threatening violence in any way, then Gwen being hit in the face is not an appropriate use of force. On the face of it, there could be an assault charge awaiting the security guy who hit Gwen.
If the incident is on CCTV as well, it should not be difficult to ascertain whether unreasonable force was used.
It may not be a popular view on here at times, but it sounds like the Police were actually pretty good in their response. Pretty shocking that they had to intervene to allow you back in to be with the young lad you were looking after, and even more ridiculous that despite them clearly agreeing with you regarding the action of the stewards - he was still ejected. I think this should be highlighted with the club.
Very interesting to hear that anyone with a banner will be ejected now, if that's the case then I think this is perhaps something we need to tackle on a larger scale. Multiple banners popping up will be a nightmare to deal with.
I have also worked in the security industry and know that the companies rely on the supply agencies to check and many don't. Just because someone is a prison "officer" does not automatically qualify them to be an SIA licenced door steward. The roles are different.
Banning filming/photography as well as banners suggests they're getting a bit worried about this.
when everyone had a quick frisk, from bog standard security guys or even to the BBC or Wimbledon or the Airport when after i, like others set the alarm off after walking through the Detector frame was frisked with the small metal detector.
(i must of swallowed some money from a home made christmas pud which then took a wrong turning and then got wedged inside !))
Bizarrely at Wimbledon the guy was more hands on and was near the mark as he didn't have the small hand held detector.
If it got to be a more invasive search, like being told to drop your strides,
bend over, and think of England, then make sure it's the old bill or a custom officer or else ! plus only in a darken room unless you want to go viral on social media. (or there pills you can take )
Either way, I personally hate it when I get some jobsworth trying to go through my stuff because he thinks he's really a police officer. Happened in a local supermarket a few years ago when someone asked to go through my shopping, a quick "No thanks, I'm alright cheers." seemed to throw him off until it was too late and I'd already walked out. Even the press are being hassled, as I say, it sounds like they're shitting it at the moment. One would also expect it's quite an easy win for the police if they stepped in; everything is on CCTV and there's numerous witnesses - including other officers who intervened. It's been reported, so it's best to get it dealt with to tick off and get a cheap target covered.