Read a statement following a meeting between the club and the Metropolitan Police Service at New Scotland Yard
they could have put a please at the start.
Seriously if a meeting actually did take place about beach balls thrown on the pitch would it really have taken place at New fucking scotland yard ? Surely it would be a local level procedure wouldn't it ?
Just seen HI post on more or less same thing ...sorry
No, it did happen at NSY. Suspect it wasn't about 'beach balls', more generalised On dealing with protests. Also suspect the police are not interested in beach balls. Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong but while throwing objects onto the pitch may be against ground regulations it isn't a criminal offence. That I suspect only kicks in if the object could cause physical harm / criminal damage. I think they have tried to be clever in the statement wrapping it up with other things that are arrestable offences, such as racism, flares etc
Happy to be corrected it wrong.
The Football (Offences) Act 1991 is probably the piece of legislation they are referring to. My emphasis.
Section 2 Throwing of missiles.
It is an offence for a person at a designated football match to throw anything at or towards—
(a) the playing area, or any area adjacent to the playing area to which spectators are not generally admitted, or
(b) any area in which spectators or other persons are or may be present,
without lawful authority or lawful excuse (which shall be for him to prove).
Like everything to do with the law, it is important to read every word in turn and understand its meaning.
The fact that the section heading uses the word "Missiles" clearly indicates the entirely valid purpose of the legislation. The word anything is used to avoid having to have some long-winded definition of a missile. So, some hapless plod might charge someone for throwing a coin, dart, spear, ICBM, etc around at a football ground. Perhaps even a beachball. But to imagine that a Court might consider that the latter was proper use of the legislation is in my opinion, laughable.
Where exactly have the MPS issued this warning? I can only see a statement on the CAFC OS.
If you read it, it does actually say that it is a joint statement.
Reads like a police statement not a club statement
It's in English for a start
PWR much.
This. It's a Police statement. It's intended to deter behavior, and it's always going to be strong worded in an attempt to do just this. I am very jaded toward the police as a result of living through 30 years of American policing, but this is what I'd expect, a heavy handed statement. As long as the heavy handedness remains in word form. I feel the same way about this as I did about the club statement they put out a couple Sundays ago after the Boro match. It's something they kind of have to do.
@MuttleyCAFC I take your point about inventive protesting, but it's illegal. I do not believe a distinction is made in the letter of the law between a beach ball, a coin, a bottle, or a shoe (side note, have we thought about throwing shoes?).
It's also technically illegal to throw a balloon or a piece of confetti. Good luck taking those offences to court.
Read a statement following a meeting between the club and the Metropolitan Police Service at New Scotland Yard
they could have put a please at the start.
Seriously if a meeting actually did take place about beach balls thrown on the pitch would it really have taken place at New fucking scotland yard ? Surely it would be a local level procedure wouldn't it ?
Just seen HI post on more or less same thing ...sorry
No, it did happen at NSY. Suspect it wasn't about 'beach balls', more generalised On dealing with protests. Also suspect the police are not interested in beach balls. Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong but while throwing objects onto the pitch may be against ground regulations it isn't a criminal offence. That I suspect only kicks in if the object could cause physical harm / criminal damage. I think they have tried to be clever in the statement wrapping it up with other things that are arrestable offences, such as racism, flares etc
Happy to be corrected it wrong.
The Football (Offences) Act 1991 is probably the piece of legislation they are referring to. My emphasis.
Section 2 Throwing of missiles.
It is an offence for a person at a designated football match to throw anything at or towards—
(a) the playing area, or any area adjacent to the playing area to which spectators are not generally admitted, or
(b) any area in which spectators or other persons are or may be present,
without lawful authority or lawful excuse (which shall be for him to prove).
Like everything to do with the law, it is important to read every word in turn and understand its meaning.
The fact that the section heading uses the word "Missiles" clearly indicates the entirely valid purpose of the legislation. The word anything is used to avoid having to have some long-winded definition of a missile. So, some hapless plod might charge someone for throwing a coin, dart, spear, ICBM, etc around at a football ground. Perhaps even a beachball. But to imagine that a Court might consider that the latter was proper use of the legislation is in my opinion, laughable.
Not sure how a beach ball could be considered a missile. It is worth getting the Police to clarify that it is surely. They can say it isn't a missile or look like fools!
Where exactly have the MPS issued this warning? I can only see a statement on the CAFC OS.
If you read it, it does actually say that it is a joint statement.
Reads like a police statement not a club statement
It's in English for a start
PWR much.
This. It's a Police statement. It's intended to deter behavior, and it's always going to be strong worded in an attempt to do just this. I am very jaded toward the police as a result of living through 30 years of American policing, but this is what I'd expect, a heavy handed statement. As long as the heavy handedness remains in word form. I feel the same way about this as I did about the club statement they put out a couple Sundays ago after the Boro match. It's something they kind of have to do.
@MuttleyCAFC I take your point about inventive protesting, but it's illegal. I do not believe a distinction is made in the letter of the law between a beach ball, a coin, a bottle, or a shoe (side note, have we thought about throwing shoes?).
It's also technically illegal to throw a balloon or a piece of confetti. Good luck taking those offences to court.
Agree, and @cafcfan has it spot on above. According to the letter of the law, it's illegal, but will it be prosecuted? Almost certainly not.
Again, police statement, meant to *deter* (i.e. scare--don't think I spelled that out last time) people.
Not sure how a beach ball could be considered a missile. It is worth getting the Police to clarify that it is surely. They can say it isn't a missile or look like fools!
Missile....."an object which is forcibly propelled at a target, either by hand or from a mechanical weapon". Anything is an object and therefore legally a missile.
Not sure how a beach ball could be considered a missile. It is worth getting the Police to clarify that it is surely. They can say it isn't a missile or look like fools!
Missile....."an object which is forcibly propelled at a target, either by hand or from a mechanical weapon". Anything is an object and therefore legally a missile.
A pathetic attempt by the management of the club to intimidate supporters. By mentioning New Scotland Yard they expect us to be quaking in our boots. Dream on idiots.
A pathetic attempt by the management of the club to intimidate supporters. By mentioning New Scotland Yard they expect us to be quaking in our boots. Dream on idiots.
I started to write a serious post about the joint statement that completley exaggerates the actions of the protest, & the rubbish unnamed BBC article that lazily links unrelated events at Crystal Palace and the measured and careful protests as the same thing.
Then I realised its part of the same club mindset that wants to deflect blame on Charlton supporters for the relegation and the abject failure enacted by Duchatelet and Meire. It signals no serious or meaningful change to way things are carried out at the club. Father Jack had a sensible thing to say about it.
Surely a FOI would tell us if the MPS had a meeting with the club at NSY.
I'm thinking about it. Wording is all important with FOI, especially with plod. If you check my FOIs on WDTK, for example around Millwall game policing, one time they played ball, one time they didn't. If anybody wants to give this wording some thought, I'll be happy to write the FOI taking everyone's suggestions into account.
Where "NLA of New Scotland Yard" when you need him.
I'd go for a request asking for:
1. All records held relating to any meetings between the Met Police and representatives of Charlton Athletic Football Club in March 2016 (or during the 2015-2016 season).
2. Details of all football clubs with whom the Met Police have issued joint statements regarding fan behaviour in each of the last ten football seasons (to date), including copies of the statement sissued.
The club are being deliberately provocative ...they need to alienate us in the hope that between now and the end of the season one or more fans will overreact and put the club in a good light.
Do not play their pathetic game ...they are not quite at the last throw of the dice but they are getting there.
It makes a link, where there isn't one, between incidents at some place over in Surrey several months ago and all the recent organised protests at The Valley.
I may be wrong, but I can't remember any stories like this on the BBC site about fans of other clubs being warned for behaviour and Charlton aren't exactly renowned for their brushes with the law.
The Club have attempted to tar the vast majority of fans of OUR Club by including a totally unrelated incident.
It tries to make the intelligent, well thought out and played out protests against ineptitude, which have been well supported in the media, fight for media space alongside a darker incident which shouldn't have happened.
Nasty, underhand and pretty much to be expected from the shambles running Charlton.
@PragueAddick perhaps an FOI question should include how many Football Clubs have NSY issued joint statements with "warning fans" about their behaviour.
BBC haven't given us any good press throughout this whole ordeal. I think someone there has it in for us.
Anything thrown can be a missile but that does not make everything thrown a missile. The throwing must be with an intent to hit a "target" or risk of hitting an unintended "target" for it to be a missile.
As already said, if throwing anything was an offence, you couldn't return the ball from the crowd without breaking the law.
As has already been said, the statement mixes up words to give the impression that the ball throwing is regarded by the police as a criminal act.
I suggest everyone writes to the police and asks them to clarify the joint statement. Demand an answer whether they regard a beach ball not thrown at any individual and clearly incapable of causing injury to be an offence of throwing missiles under the Football (Offences) Act 1991. If so, will a statement be made by the MPS warning fans not to take missiles in the shape of balloons to the Wembley cup final.
The answer will either make the police and/or the club look stupid and give good copy for the media.
I was about to take a rest from posting for a while. In all honesty all I seem to be doing is drawing endless attention to the same stuff week in week out but this regime simply cannot help themselves.
If you are the CEO or COO of a business, if you are responsible for running the business and you have something you want to communicate to those who frequent your business, if it is matter of some importance and concerns issues involving the boundaries around the ability to protest, if you as a club have something to say - just say it. If you are the CEO or COO put your name to it.
On what possible basis would you need to a) hold a special meeting with Metropolitan Police b) need to broadcast such meeting had been held?
Why do you need to hide behind the Metropolitan Police by getting them to add a few words of legalise and adding to their authority to the statement? Can these people not take personal responsibility for anything?
Do you really not think the MPS have better things to do? There is absolutely nothing new here at all.
The laws, rules and regulations governing such activities within and without the confines of a football ground are very well documented. Indeed they are so well known action has been taken against a few individuals.
If people break the law they know they run the risk of prosecution but ....
Do you think the police are really going to prosecute people for throwing a beach ball on the pitch?
Do you think local magistrates are going to waste their time and the taxpayers money on such trivia?
The spurious attempt to link the protest campaign to one or two isolated incidents shows the weakness of their argument.
It carries all the hallmarks of an arse covering exercise for the Football Association .
If people contravene the ground rules and regulations they know they face being evicted from the ground and future banning orders.
If the club wishes to take such action against supporters then it has every right to do so. If that is what they intend to do just do it and be prepared for the consequences.
How feeble do you have to be to need the heavy handed words of the local constabulary to send your message?
Does the weakness of the characters within this ailing regime know no bounds?
Another bumbling, non attributable, self important statement which says absolutely nothing new.
What a tragedy our club is in the hands of such spineless specimens.
Comments
Section 2 Throwing of missiles.
It is an offence for a person at a designated football match to throw anything at or towards—
(a) the playing area, or any area adjacent to the playing area to which spectators are not generally admitted, or
(b) any area in which spectators or other persons are or may be present,
without lawful authority or lawful excuse (which shall be for him to prove).
Like everything to do with the law, it is important to read every word in turn and understand its meaning.
The fact that the section heading uses the word "Missiles" clearly indicates the entirely valid purpose of the legislation. The word anything is used to avoid having to have some long-winded definition of a missile. So, some hapless plod might charge someone for throwing a coin, dart, spear, ICBM, etc around at a football ground. Perhaps even a beachball. But to imagine that a Court might consider that the latter was proper use of the legislation is in my opinion, laughable.
Again, police statement, meant to *deter* (i.e. scare--don't think I spelled that out last time) people.
So it's not an offence to kick anything at or towards - ?
Then I realised its part of the same club mindset that wants to deflect blame on Charlton supporters for the relegation and the abject failure enacted by Duchatelet and Meire. It signals no serious or meaningful change to way things are carried out at the club. Father Jack had a sensible thing to say about it.
I'd go for a request asking for:
1. All records held relating to any meetings between the Met Police and representatives of Charlton Athletic Football Club in March 2016 (or during the 2015-2016 season).
2. Details of all football clubs with whom the Met Police have issued joint statements regarding fan behaviour in each of the last ten football seasons (to date), including copies of the statement sissued.
Do not play their pathetic game ...they are not quite at the last throw of the dice but they are getting there.
We will win.
As already said, if throwing anything was an offence, you couldn't return the ball from the crowd without breaking the law.
As has already been said, the statement mixes up words to give the impression that the ball throwing is regarded by the police as a criminal act.
I suggest everyone writes to the police and asks them to clarify the joint statement. Demand an answer whether they regard a beach ball not thrown at any individual and clearly incapable of causing injury to be an offence of throwing missiles under the Football (Offences) Act 1991. If so, will a statement be made by the MPS warning fans not to take missiles in the shape of balloons to the Wembley cup final.
The answer will either make the police and/or the club look stupid and give good copy for the media.
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win
Ghandi
If you are the CEO or COO of a business, if you are responsible for running the business and you have something you want to communicate to those who frequent your business, if it is matter of some importance and concerns issues involving the boundaries around the ability to protest, if you as a club have something to say - just say it. If you are the CEO or COO put your name to it.
On what possible basis would you need to a) hold a special meeting with Metropolitan Police b) need to broadcast such meeting had been held?
Why do you need to hide behind the Metropolitan Police by getting them to add a few words of legalise and adding to their authority to the statement? Can these people not take personal responsibility for anything?
Do you really not think the MPS have better things to do? There is absolutely nothing new here at all.
The laws, rules and regulations governing such activities within and without the confines of a football ground are very well documented. Indeed they are so well known action has been taken against a few individuals.
If people break the law they know they run the risk of prosecution but ....
Do you think the police are really going to prosecute people for throwing a beach ball on the pitch?
Do you think local magistrates are going to waste their time and the taxpayers money on such trivia?
The spurious attempt to link the protest campaign to one or two isolated incidents shows the weakness of their argument.
It carries all the hallmarks of an arse covering exercise for the Football Association .
If people contravene the ground rules and regulations they know they face being evicted from the ground and future banning orders.
If the club wishes to take such action against supporters then it has every right to do so. If that is what they intend to do just do it and be prepared for the consequences.
How feeble do you have to be to need the heavy handed words of the local constabulary to send your message?
Does the weakness of the characters within this ailing regime know no bounds?
Another bumbling, non attributable, self important statement which says absolutely nothing new.
What a tragedy our club is in the hands of such spineless specimens.