Well I for one is a little pissed off.... Elbowed a lovely blonde off me in bed and got up at 2:45am to watch that.... I should of stayed where I was and humped her leg till she woke up.
Last night was rubbish because a team in third place, who were lucky to even be at the tournament (they likely wouldn't have made it to Euro 2012), were able to cling on to a third place spot in the final game.
Wales were playing a team who HAD to open up a bit as they were bottom. When Russia played us, a point looked good and so they could sit deep.
So to me it's not as simple as "Wales beat Russia, they did better than us" - Yes, they finished above us (might not be a good thing for them) but the reasons why that happened were more nuanced than one team being better/ luckier than another.
I'm not thrilled by last night, I don't think we've earned the right to rest players based on the last three tournaments, but then again, only Walker might have made a difference to that wall of cynical white last night.
I am concerned that if we play Hungary, they might do the same thing and look for penalties. There would be no excuse for not finding a breakthrough yet again in that situation, so hopefully our first 11 can figure out how to get past them. But I'll judge them on that, not last night's game, which I think was quite misleading.
If it is Portugal, we might get to play a team who doesn't sit back, then we'll really know what our lads are all about.
The group stage is all about getting through it, which is something we have struggled to do at tournaments in the past. So job done.
To be honest, I didn't realise that so many people - at least judging from this thread - had such high expectations from us in the first place.
Did people expect us to be winning all our games by two or three goals or something? If so, why?
Before it started I thought we'd win one and draw two of our group games, I just got the order wrong.
No high expectations from me. I'Ve always predicted when asked that we will get out of this group and no further. I think the constant turnover of England coaches at the behest of the media is ridiculous, it has not changed anything since 1996, and never will on its own.
Of course I get that it is difficult to "play" against a team that set up like Slovakia. And the Czechs are pretty damn critical of their own team. They know what happens if you just set up to defend deep against a team of good footballers such as Spain. You lose. What they were laughing at, and what was embarrassing, was our apparent inability to maintain the most elementary football skills. Like trapping the sodding thing.
Maybe it was the beer. Staropramen unfiltered. Feeling well rough today.
Last night was rubbish because a team in third place, who were lucky to even be at the tournament (they likely wouldn't have made it to Euro 2012), were able to cling on to a third place spot in the final game.
Wales were playing a team who HAD to open up a bit as they were bottom. When Russia played us, a point looked good and so they could sit deep.
So to me it's not as simple as "Wales beat Russia, they did better than us" - Yes, they finished above us (might not be a good thing for them) but the reasons why that happened were more nuanced than one team being better/ luckier than another.
I'm not thrilled by last night, I don't think we've earned the right to rest players based on the last three tournaments, but then again, only Walker might have made a difference to that wall of cynical white last night.
I am concerned that if we play Hungary, they might do the same thing and look for penalties. There would be no excuse for not finding a breakthrough yet again in that situation, so hopefully our first 11 can figure out how to get past them. But I'll judge them on that, not last night's game, which I think was quite misleading.
If it is Portugal, we might get to play a team who doesn't sit back, then we'll really know what our lads are all about.
Exactly. I honestly fail to see why some people cant grasp this.
Last night was rubbish because a team in third place, who were lucky to even be at the tournament (they likely wouldn't have made it to Euro 2012), were able to cling on to a third place spot in the final game.
Wales were playing a team who HAD to open up a bit as they were bottom. When Russia played us, a point looked good and so they could sit deep.
So to me it's not as simple as "Wales beat Russia, they did better than us" - Yes, they finished above us (might not be a good thing for them) but the reasons why that happened were more nuanced than one team being better/ luckier than another.
I'm not thrilled by last night, I don't think we've earned the right to rest players based on the last three tournaments, but then again, only Walker might have made a difference to that wall of cynical white last night.
I am concerned that if we play Hungary, they might do the same thing and look for penalties. There would be no excuse for not finding a breakthrough yet again in that situation, so hopefully our first 11 can figure out how to get past them. But I'll judge them on that, not last night's game, which I think was quite misleading.
If it is Portugal, we might get to play a team who doesn't sit back, then we'll really know what our lads are all about.
Exactly. I honestly fail to see why some people cant grasp this.
Because too many people out there have tunnel vision and believe that what the pundits say is gospel
29 shots more like 29 attempts. Their goalkeeper hardly had to make a save, the stats paint a different picture to what really went on. We have played the worse team in the competition and drew, lucked out against Wales and failed to score against a team that are only there because the of the increase in numbers. The Quarter finals and no further, as long as we don't get the banana skin that would be Iceland next.
I'm trying my hardest not be be incredibly condescending but appreciate that this next diatribe will still sound condescending
Every team we have played have stuck 8 outfield players behind the ball so deep it's humiliating for them. This is not a new thing, pretty much any side playing a team full of threats would do the same. It's pretty disappointing for anyone wanting to see a blood orgy of goals but these are teams full of players who play in the top divisions of Europe. It's not Exeter parking the bus against man City in the cup for fuck sake. Everyone loves to applaud Jose Mourinho when he does it with his 400 million pound teams. Russia had no attacking intent whatsoever, Wales got a goal completely against the run of play and camped out in their own box and eventually caved in to a bit of quality. Slovakia last night were ridiculously deep and it was like watching a training exercise.
Our side is set up and built to play on the break, if you can't see that then it's probably best you knock watching football on the head. This isn't any sort of excuse for not being able to score against Slovakia but it makes it fucking hard. And people are conveniently forgetting Spain, France and Germany all only won via headers and goals at the death.
A few others have said it but I'll say it again. The format of the top 3 going through is partly to blame so let's see what happens when we play someone who wants to at least get the ball in our half with intent as opposed to defending en masse for 95 minutes.
We are through the group, we had an exciting win against the Welsh and should have beat Russia barring them scoring from their only meaningful attack of the game.
I can't watch football down the pub because I'm fed up of listening to dickheads shouting nonsense at the TV. Then I need to switch Facebook off for the same reason, avoid news media and guttingly the nonsensical waffle has spread to here.
If everyone parks the bus then we've got to break it down yes, but we haven't lost, we will now play some better teams who I hope show some intent of fucking winning a game.
29 shots more like 29 attempts. Their goalkeeper hardly had to make a save, the stats paint a different picture to what really went on. We have played the worse team in the competition and drew, lucked out against Wales and failed to score against a team that are only there because the of the increase in numbers. The Quarter finals and no further, as long as we don't get the banana skin that would be Iceland next.
That's an incredibly harsh view. We had 4 very good scoring opportunities (Vardy 1 on 1, Lallana's shot that was saved, Clyne's shot that was saved, Alli off the line) all were good to excellent saves or last ditch blocks. That's also ignoring Sturridge's chance were a toe end on that could have sent it in. Another day we could have scored all of those.
"Our side is set up and built to play on the break, if you can't see that then it's probably best you knock watching football on the head"
OK so before I knock it on the head would you be so kind as to explain me why it is set up to play this way and only this way? I thought the whole idea of a Squad was to allow a variety of formations and tactics tailored to the opposition, which will be varied in a competition like this.
Are you suggesting that Roy Hodgson didn't think in advance that Slovakia would basically sit deep? I like Roy Hodgson, he knows his football and respects other teams. Of course he knew that Slovakia would park the bus. Would you do anything else if you were the coach of Slovakia, playing against England with their (alleged) embarrassment of riches? Or at least against a country with 12 times as many males in the population to choose from, and home of the "greatest league in the world" ?
Yes a team sitting back is hard to break down, never an easy job. But you really do have to take your chances and work to your strengths.
Wilshire starting was not a strength, Sturridge coming too deep and basically ending up as a number 10 is not a strength as i personally think he is one of the best finishers in the team, get him in the box
Chances were there and on another day could have been 3 or 4. It is not all doom and gloom.
But there are just bits where it could be tuned better to create more and more clear cut opportunities at that.
Not at all impressed by Portugal tbh. Think that game would be more open with clearer chances.
It's set up to play like that because of the players and how the shape of the team is. The 433 when in possession becomes a 451 without the ball with the deep midfielder (Dier) dropping when we have the ball to alow our attack minded full backs to bomb on at speed. It makes it hard for sides to deal with when it works because if they over-commit and send players forwards themselves we have enough pace and quality to stretch them creating space.
I don't think I said anything about the size of the country or riches available but seeing as it was bought up I'll address that too
We have four full backs who are quick enough and good enough to play and support this style of football
We have 2 centre forwards in the form of their lives available who both play for teams who also play this way
We have at least one midfielder perfect to the crucial deep midfield role who is also in the form of his life
I don't know what else the players could have done, they were positive all game, spent most of it in possession in the Slovakia half, put crosses in the box, tried to pass their way through, tried to thump shots through the traffic and for once the only sin may have been not launching high balls for someone like Carroll to do something with. And Slovakia only park the bus because of how the group found itself. I don't think the format of this tournament has helped as loads of teams have been doing it and to repeat Spain, the defending champions only won from a centre half going up to get on the end of High stuff. I'm glad we aren't doing that and Hodgson has gona about things in a discernable way.
And I also didn't say we could only play on the counter, I pointed out its how we are set up as to me it is abundantly obvious. I'd have the hump if we had gone long after an hour and I'm glad the side kept trying to play the right way.
If the amount of men in countries or the quality of the foreigner dominated domestic league had any relevance to what I said then us, italy and Germany would win everything.
What was your point? We should have taken Carroll? Or we should have asked Slovakia nicely to show some interest in winning as opposed to protecting what they won in their last game?
We are through the group, the way teams play depends greatly on what's at stake, I didn't expect Wales to demolish Russia or beat Slovakia. I expected us to not lose the first game (was thinking nil nil) beat Wales and need a win to top the group. As it is that how it turned out. Wales have scored three goals not entirely scored by skill alone. We are yet to get the same luck and when we do score a handful we will have earned it.
Every Wales goal against Russia was because of a ridiculously high line. Last night i dont even think some of Slovakia's midfielders got that high up the pitch!!!
I'm not happy with last nights result considering we were firmly in the driving seat to win the group.
However at least the mindset of England fans seems to have moved on a bit from the brain dead "they don't have any passion!!!!" bullshit that used to get spouted all the time.
I'm not happy with last nights result considering we were firmly in the driving seat to win the group.
However at least the mindset of England fans seems to have moved on a bit from the brain dead "they don't have any passion!!!!" bullshit that used to get spouted all the time.
Wait until we get knocked out.
I'm personally looking forward to the "we should give the kids a chance"
Along with, winter breaks, grass route, lack of coaches, posession stats, minutes played and what the Germans did after euro 2000.
You understand the tactical side of the game much better thani do. You probably played at a higher level than me, which would not be difficult. So I learnt a lot from your post.
But as for my point, well the Andy Carroll one was certainly something I heard discussed this morning. I realize that can easily be seen as the Big Lump Up Front cliche solution, but it is a different tactical option. My point about Slovakia is that they don't have such options. A small country does not have the strength in depth. Well take Wales. Look who is on the bench for them to see my point. These small countries don't have the players for Plan B. Slovakia would not be here if they did not have Hamsik.
I don't know. We were all pissed off in the pub. Me, a Spanner and a Serb. And what was pissing us off was, as I have said, the failure to do the basics. Heaven knows why. Of course they can all trap the ball and pass accurately,but they were not doing it last night, and to me that showed us up as an inferior team given our heritage. That was certainly what the young Czechs were taking the piss about. I was getting quite pissed off with them, but it dawned on me that they had a point.
I wish I had your confidence in how we will play against a "better" team. Since I consider myself a realist about English football I would be delighted if we just got to the last 8. Not sure we will
I'm not happy with last nights result considering we were firmly in the driving seat to win the group.
However at least the mindset of England fans seems to have moved on a bit from the brain dead "they don't have any passion!!!!" bullshit that used to get spouted all the time.
Wait until we get knocked out.
I'm personally looking forward to the "we should give the kids a chance"
Along with, winter breaks, grass route, lack of coaches, posession stats, minutes played and what the Germans did after euro 2000.
Many of which are valid points - however they get spouted by sit at home Arsenal, Chelsea fans who then throw their toys out the pram when their clubs don't go and sign 10+ foreign players each Summer and couldn't even name an English academy product of their own.
I'm not happy with last nights result considering we were firmly in the driving seat to win the group.
However at least the mindset of England fans seems to have moved on a bit from the brain dead "they don't have any passion!!!!" bullshit that used to get spouted all the time.
Wait until we get knocked out.
I'm personally looking forward to the "we should give the kids a chance"
Along with, winter breaks, grass route, lack of coaches, posession stats, minutes played and what the Germans did after euro 2000.
I've already heard it said a few times, that these Euro's don't matter as they're just a warm up to the world cup in 2018. Why are they? And why will we be any better there?
29 shots more like 29 attempts. Their goalkeeper hardly had to make a save, the stats paint a different picture to what really went on. We have played the worse team in the competition and drew, lucked out against Wales and failed to score against a team that are only there because the of the increase in numbers. The Quarter finals and no further, as long as we don't get the banana skin that would be Iceland next.
That's an incredibly harsh view. We had 4 very good scoring opportunities (Vardy 1 on 1, Lallana's shot that was saved, Clyne's shot that was saved, Alli off the line) all were good to excellent saves or last ditch blocks. That's also ignoring Sturridge's chance were a toe end on that could have sent it in. Another day we could have scored all of those.
There is some truth in this. Vardy would take the chance he had 4 times out of 5. The Clyne chance was a mixture of terrific save and bad luck. But goalscoring is clearly not our strength and I don't think we can claim otherwise! The control point - England play at a faster pace than most teams and this could actually be a good thing as the tournament goes on, but it is harder to maintain control like that.
If we avoid Portugal, it is hard to say coming second has disadvantaged us. Woy clearly wasn't that bothered about finishing first or second, because if he was, the team would have been different. Germany only scored one goal against the Northern Irish today - despite complete domination - They are World Champions. I think the biggest disapointment was that Woy didn't take the opportunity to bed the team in more as whilst there have been promising signs, there is still form to be found. Anyway, If we get Hungary, I'll be doing cartwheels. I can tell you - at total risk of humiliation to myself - that they have absolutely no chance of beating us!
29 shots more like 29 attempts. Their goalkeeper hardly had to make a save, the stats paint a different picture to what really went on. We have played the worse team in the competition and drew, lucked out against Wales and failed to score against a team that are only there because the of the increase in numbers. The Quarter finals and no further, as long as we don't get the banana skin that would be Iceland next.
That's an incredibly harsh view. We had 4 very good scoring opportunities (Vardy 1 on 1, Lallana's shot that was saved, Clyne's shot that was saved, Alli off the line) all were good to excellent saves or last ditch blocks. That's also ignoring Sturridge's chance were a toe end on that could have sent it in. Another day we could have scored all of those.
There is some truth in this. Vardy would take the chance he had 4 times out of 5. The Clyne chance was a mixture of terrific save and bad luck. But goalscoring is clearly not our strength and I don't think we can claim otherwise! The control point - England play at a faster pace than most teams and this could actually be a good thing as the tournament goes on, but it is harder to maintain control like that.
If we avoid Portugal, it is hard to say coming second has disadvantaged us. Woy clearly wasn't that bothered about finishing first or second, because if he was, the team would have been different. Germany only scored one goal against the Northern Irish today - despite complete domination - They are World Champions. I think the biggest disapointment was that Woy didn't take the opportunity to bed the team in more as whilst there have been promising signs, there is still form to be found. Anyway, If we get Hungary, I'll be doing cartwheels. I can tell you - at total risk of humiliation to myself - that they have absolutely no chance of beating us!
Any team that plays us knows that a) we can't break down a packed defence and b) we can't win penalty shootouts.
Comments
Wales were playing a team who HAD to open up a bit as they were bottom. When Russia played us, a point looked good and so they could sit deep.
So to me it's not as simple as "Wales beat Russia, they did better than us" - Yes, they finished above us (might not be a good thing for them) but the reasons why that happened were more nuanced than one team being better/ luckier than another.
I'm not thrilled by last night, I don't think we've earned the right to rest players based on the last three tournaments, but then again, only Walker might have made a difference to that wall of cynical white last night.
I am concerned that if we play Hungary, they might do the same thing and look for penalties. There would be no excuse for not finding a breakthrough yet again in that situation, so hopefully our first 11 can figure out how to get past them. But I'll judge them on that, not last night's game, which I think was quite misleading.
If it is Portugal, we might get to play a team who doesn't sit back, then we'll really know what our lads are all about.
Of course I get that it is difficult to "play" against a team that set up like Slovakia. And the Czechs are pretty damn critical of their own team. They know what happens if you just set up to defend deep against a team of good footballers such as Spain. You lose. What they were laughing at, and what was embarrassing, was our apparent inability to maintain the most elementary football skills. Like trapping the sodding thing.
Maybe it was the beer. Staropramen unfiltered. Feeling well rough today.
Their goalkeeper hardly had to make a save, the stats paint a different picture to what really went on. We have played the worse team in the competition and drew, lucked out against Wales and failed to score against a team that are only there because the of the increase in numbers.
The Quarter finals and no further, as long as we don't get the banana skin that would be Iceland next.
Every team we have played have stuck 8 outfield players behind the ball so deep it's humiliating for them. This is not a new thing, pretty much any side playing a team full of threats would do the same. It's pretty disappointing for anyone wanting to see a blood orgy of goals but these are teams full of players who play in the top divisions of Europe. It's not Exeter parking the bus against man City in the cup for fuck sake. Everyone loves to applaud Jose Mourinho when he does it with his 400 million pound teams. Russia had no attacking intent whatsoever, Wales got a goal completely against the run of play and camped out in their own box and eventually caved in to a bit of quality. Slovakia last night were ridiculously deep and it was like watching a training exercise.
Our side is set up and built to play on the break, if you can't see that then it's probably best you knock watching football on the head. This isn't any sort of excuse for not being able to score against Slovakia but it makes it fucking hard. And people are conveniently forgetting Spain, France and Germany all only won via headers and goals at the death.
A few others have said it but I'll say it again. The format of the top 3 going through is partly to blame so let's see what happens when we play someone who wants to at least get the ball in our half with intent as opposed to defending en masse for 95 minutes.
We are through the group, we had an exciting win against the Welsh and should have beat Russia barring them scoring from their only meaningful attack of the game.
I can't watch football down the pub because I'm fed up of listening to dickheads shouting nonsense at the TV. Then I need to switch Facebook off for the same reason, avoid news media and guttingly the nonsensical waffle has spread to here.
If everyone parks the bus then we've got to break it down yes, but we haven't lost, we will now play some better teams who I hope show some intent of fucking winning a game.
Fact is we didnt win. Fact is France DID score those late goals to win extra points.
Lets see where the next game (which will blatantly be against Portugal) takes us.
"Our side is set up and built to play on the break, if you can't see that then it's probably best you knock watching football on the head"
OK so before I knock it on the head would you be so kind as to explain me why it is set up to play this way and only this way? I thought the whole idea of a Squad was to allow a variety of formations and tactics tailored to the opposition, which will be varied in a competition like this.
Are you suggesting that Roy Hodgson didn't think in advance that Slovakia would basically sit deep? I like Roy Hodgson, he knows his football and respects other teams. Of course he knew that Slovakia would park the bus. Would you do anything else if you were the coach of Slovakia, playing against England with their (alleged) embarrassment of riches? Or at least against a country with 12 times as many males in the population to choose from, and home of the "greatest league in the world" ?
Yes a team sitting back is hard to break down, never an easy job. But you really do have to take your chances and work to your strengths.
Wilshire starting was not a strength, Sturridge coming too deep and basically ending up as a number 10 is not a strength as i personally think he is one of the best finishers in the team, get him in the box
Chances were there and on another day could have been 3 or 4. It is not all doom and gloom.
But there are just bits where it could be tuned better to create more and more clear cut opportunities at that.
Not at all impressed by Portugal tbh. Think that game would be more open with clearer chances.
I don't think I said anything about the size of the country or riches available but seeing as it was bought up I'll address that too
We have four full backs who are quick enough and good enough to play and support this style of football
We have 2 centre forwards in the form of their lives available who both play for teams who also play this way
We have at least one midfielder perfect to the crucial deep midfield role who is also in the form of his life
I don't know what else the players could have done, they were positive all game, spent most of it in possession in the Slovakia half, put crosses in the box, tried to pass their way through, tried to thump shots through the traffic and for once the only sin may have been not launching high balls for someone like Carroll to do something with. And Slovakia only park the bus because of how the group found itself. I don't think the format of this tournament has helped as loads of teams have been doing it and to repeat Spain, the defending champions only won from a centre half going up to get on the end of High stuff. I'm glad we aren't doing that and Hodgson has gona about things in a discernable way.
And I also didn't say we could only play on the counter, I pointed out its how we are set up as to me it is abundantly obvious. I'd have the hump if we had gone long after an hour and I'm glad the side kept trying to play the right way.
If the amount of men in countries or the quality of the foreigner dominated domestic league had any relevance to what I said then us, italy and Germany would win everything.
What was your point? We should have taken Carroll? Or we should have asked Slovakia nicely to show some interest in winning as opposed to protecting what they won in their last game?
We are through the group, the way teams play depends greatly on what's at stake, I didn't expect Wales to demolish Russia or beat Slovakia. I expected us to not lose the first game (was thinking nil nil) beat Wales and need a win to top the group. As it is that how it turned out. Wales have scored three goals not entirely scored by skill alone. We are yet to get the same luck and when we do score a handful we will have earned it.
However at least the mindset of England fans seems to have moved on a bit from the brain dead "they don't have any passion!!!!" bullshit that used to get spouted all the time.
I'm personally looking forward to the "we should give the kids a chance"
Along with, winter breaks, grass route, lack of coaches, posession stats, minutes played and what the Germans did after euro 2000.
You understand the tactical side of the game much better thani do. You probably played at a higher level than me, which would not be difficult. So I learnt a lot from your post.
But as for my point, well the Andy Carroll one was certainly something I heard discussed this morning. I realize that can easily be seen as the Big Lump Up Front cliche solution, but it is a different tactical option. My point about Slovakia is that they don't have such options. A small country does not have the strength in depth. Well take Wales. Look who is on the bench for them to see my point. These small countries don't have the players for Plan B. Slovakia would not be here if they did not have Hamsik.
I don't know. We were all pissed off in the pub. Me, a Spanner and a Serb. And what was pissing us off was, as I have said, the failure to do the basics. Heaven knows why. Of course they can all trap the ball and pass accurately,but they were not doing it last night, and to me that showed us up as an inferior team given our heritage. That was certainly what the young Czechs were taking the piss about. I was getting quite pissed off with them, but it dawned on me that they had a point.
I wish I had your confidence in how we will play against a "better" team. Since I consider myself a realist about English football I would be delighted if we just got to the last 8. Not sure we will
You know who said that?
;-)
Momentum lost due to his foolish doddery old ways
If we avoid Portugal, it is hard to say coming second has disadvantaged us. Woy clearly wasn't that bothered about finishing first or second, because if he was, the team would have been different. Germany only scored one goal against the Northern Irish today - despite complete domination - They are World Champions. I think the biggest disapointment was that Woy didn't take the opportunity to bed the team in more as whilst there have been promising signs, there is still form to be found. Anyway, If we get Hungary, I'll be doing cartwheels. I can tell you - at total risk of humiliation to myself - that they have absolutely no chance of beating us!