I trust that @Essex_Al will have read & inwardly digested those wise & succinct words of The Master.
If anyone is able to verbalise the situation in a manner that everyone can understand and hit every nail in the toolbox on its proverbial, it's this Lifer.....
Unfortunately I've had the chop so cannot supply you with babies I'm afraid, but would be very happy to get in a bit of practice, I am of course still a bit of a stud! The after sex chat would be very interesting!
Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . you meant Grapevine!
I imagine the after sex chat is more sensible than the tripe you post on here.
Are you going to Bradford so you can buy me a pre xmas Heineken?!
The after sex chat would be about my intellectual, fair, common sense postings on here but Fanny probably wouldn't agree which is why I said it you donut!
Unfortunately no pre Christmas drinkies at Bradford mate, it's Freddie's birthday party I'm afraid.
The basis for the protests has not changed since the day they started.
The results speak for themselves.
- Powell was foisted with 6 Liege rejects - Riga Part 1 was supported with 2 low key emergency loans - Peeters, who bought into the youth development culture "big time" was forced to play Pope for too long when Henderson was injured and desperately needed a foil to take the weight off Vetokele. Neither was forthcoming. The wheels came off. - Luzon was then allowed to draft in a few additional resources to close out that season. Yet the next season saw him patiently waiting for 3 new faces at the close of the August transfer window.He was left waiting for the rest of his tenure - Fraeye, no matter his personal demeanour, professionally was a collective "brainfart" - Riga Part 2 was given a plethora of aged unfit veterans/ loans who took weeks to get fit - Slade, who started late, was still trying to build his squad at the close of this seasons' transfer window a mere 12 weeks ago. 12 weeks with a squad bereft of any midfield mobility and he is out of the door People keep harping on about all of these issues being in the past "so move on" but the likes of Driessen are still on the payroll. We know not how many other secret " advisors" are in and around the club. The regime is simply not fit for purpose - nothing has changed.
Brilliant post of course, and a great summation of the history of this regime.
I'd love it if RD suddenly sold the club. But I fear he may not. So, playing devil's advocate for a moment.... (please don't shoot me!)...
Imagine an alien diplomat landing on planet earth this week to look at what the hell is wrong at The Valley.
He (or she) would see:
Almost three years of management disasters, mistake after mistake after mistake made by CEO and owner. A mission statement that was not only insulting to the fans, but unrealistic & not fit for purpose. An owner tinkering from afar, without the know-how to tinker successfully. An inexperienced and unqualified CEO, completely unsuited to the role. An inexperienced and unqualified network 'scout' (Driesen) completely unsuited to the role. A club 'at war' with it's fans, or at least a large section of them. A club that won't talk to the Supporters Trust. A fan boycott reducing revenues to the club. A well organised and well supported protest group, CARD, who have led an imaginative and unimpeachable campaign against the owner and CEO. But a split fanbase, most of whom don't like the owner, some of whom support the protests, some of whom, perhaps an increasing number, 'just want to watch the football'.
So what would your alien diplomat do. Throw his tentacles up and say 'There's nothing that can be done here, I'm off!'?
No he wouldn't. He's a professional.
Firstly, he'd see if there could be a simple solution; the owner selling, or CARD giving up the fight. He'd soon realise that neither is likely to happen any time soon. He'd see a classic stalemate situation developing. He'd see the huge disconnect between club and supporters.
After examining the background issues (as beautifully described by @Grapevine49) he would:
1. Look for signs that mistakes have been acknowledged and learned from. 2. He'd look for contrition. 3. He'd seek common ground, and a way forward that would suit both parties.
He'd need evidence.
So he'd find evidence that mistakes have at least been acknowledged.
He would find some evidence that mistakes have been learned from - two suitable managers appointed, no network players imposed, less tinkering in team affairs. He'd find some evidence that mistakes haven't been learned from - Thomas Driesen still in a (less influential) role, new manager not given enough time. The appointment of Chris O'Laughlin is (yet) another spanner in the works, although his role and future have remained undefined.
He'd see no real evidence of contrition. He could put that down to either a lack of contrition, or poor communication.
As for 3. Common Ground:
Common ground could only be established with face to face talks, ACAS style. A way forward that would be suitable to both sides, would be the aim of any talks. [In fact, ACAS's services could be employed - they're very good at this sort of thing.] There would need to be a fresh mission statement from the owner and CEO, that would be acceptable to supporters. This statement would need to lay out both their aspirations for the club, and their plans for turning these aspirations into reality.
If this approach doesn't work, then at least we tried, and the protests could continue. We'd at least have the kudos of having made the first move.
Probably the most sensible thing I have read on here for a while, but remember it takes two to Tango!
The basis for the protests has not changed since the day they started.
The results speak for themselves.
- Powell was foisted with 6 Liege rejects - Riga Part 1 was supported with 2 low key emergency loans - Peeters, who bought into the youth development culture "big time" was forced to play Pope for too long when Henderson was injured and desperately needed a foil to take the weight off Vetokele. Neither was forthcoming. The wheels came off. - Luzon was then allowed to draft in a few additional resources to close out that season. Yet the next season saw him patiently waiting for 3 new faces at the close of the August transfer window.He was left waiting for the rest of his tenure - Fraeye, no matter his personal demeanour, professionally was a collective "brainfart" - Riga Part 2 was given a plethora of aged unfit veterans/ loans who took weeks to get fit - Slade, who started late, was still trying to build his squad at the close of this seasons' transfer window a mere 12 weeks ago. 12 weeks with a squad bereft of any midfield mobility and he is out of the door People keep harping on about all of these issues being in the past "so move on" but the likes of Driessen are still on the payroll. We know not how many other secret " advisors" are in and around the club. The regime is simply not fit for purpose - nothing has changed.
Brilliant post of course, and a great summation of the history of this regime.
I'd love it if RD suddenly sold the club. But I fear he may not. So, playing devil's advocate for a moment.... (please don't shoot me!)...
Imagine an alien diplomat landing on planet earth this week to look at what the hell is wrong at The Valley.
He (or she) would see:
Almost three years of management disasters, mistake after mistake after mistake made by CEO and owner. A mission statement that was not only insulting to the fans, but unrealistic & not fit for purpose. An owner tinkering from afar, without the know-how to tinker successfully. An inexperienced and unqualified CEO, completely unsuited to the role. An inexperienced and unqualified network 'scout' (Driesen) completely unsuited to the role. A club 'at war' with it's fans, or at least a large section of them. A club that won't talk to the Supporters Trust. A fan boycott reducing revenues to the club. A well organised and well supported protest group, CARD, who have led an imaginative and unimpeachable campaign against the owner and CEO. But a split fanbase, most of whom don't like the owner, some of whom support the protests, some of whom, perhaps an increasing number, 'just want to watch the football'.
So what would your alien diplomat do. Throw his tentacles up and say 'There's nothing that can be done here, I'm off!'?
No he wouldn't. He's a professional.
Firstly, he'd see if there could be a simple solution; the owner selling, or CARD giving up the fight. He'd soon realise that neither is likely to happen any time soon. He'd see a classic stalemate situation developing. He'd see the huge disconnect between club and supporters.
After examining the background issues (as beautifully described by @Grapevine49) he would:
1. Look for signs that mistakes have been acknowledged and learned from. 2. He'd look for contrition. 3. He'd seek common ground, and a way forward that would suit both parties.
He'd need evidence.
So he'd find evidence that mistakes have at least been acknowledged.
He would find some evidence that mistakes have been learned from - two suitable managers appointed, no network players imposed, less tinkering in team affairs. He'd find some evidence that mistakes haven't been learned from - Thomas Driesen still in a (less influential) role, new manager not given enough time. The appointment of Chris O'Laughlin is (yet) another spanner in the works, although his role and future have remained undefined.
He'd see no real evidence of contrition. He could put that down to either a lack of contrition, or poor communication.
As for 3. Common Ground:
Common ground could only be established with face to face talks, ACAS style. A way forward that would be suitable to both sides, would be the aim of any talks. [In fact, ACAS's services could be employed - they're very good at this sort of thing.] There would need to be a fresh mission statement from the owner and CEO, that would be acceptable to supporters. This statement would need to lay out both their aspirations for the club, and their plans for turning these aspirations into reality.
If this approach doesn't work, then at least we tried, and the protests could continue. We'd at least have the kudos of having made the first move.
Totally agree. One stumbling block is that we have not got any elected leaders and whatever is agreed will not be accepted by quite a few.
The more you think about it, the more you wonder why the FA does not lead on this and attempt to resolve some of these disputes going on at so many clubs this way.
I don't know if it is an elephant in the room, but an astonishing run of wins, automatic promotion, and another astonishing run of wins would alter the landscape big time from all angles.
I see clear evidence of sustained and sustainable first team success as trumping talks or forms of communication.
Indeed before talks and communication I would also put access to clear and unambiguous evidence of the finances. As in debt, interest payments, the training ground, transfers, income and so on. All this stuff about putting money in is obfuscated to the nth degree.
Win a load of matches, tell us where we stand financially and truthfully, and then maybe it would be time to talk, because in the state we're all in, it is actions that count.
I totally believe that there is no way back. KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans). So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
I trust that @Essex_Al will have read & inwardly digested those wise & succinct words of The Master.
If anyone is able to verbalise the situation in a manner that everyone can understand and hit every nail in the toolbox on its proverbial, it's this Lifer.....
Unfortunately I've had the chop so cannot supply you with babies I'm afraid, but would be very happy to get in a bit of practice, I am of course still a bit of a stud! The after sex chat would be very interesting!
Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . you meant Grapevine!
I imagine the after sex chat is more sensible than the tripe you post on here.
Are you going to Bradford so you can buy me a pre xmas Heineken?!
The after sex chat would be about my intellectual, fair, common sense postings on here but Fanny probably wouldn't agree which is why I said it you donut!
Unfortunately no pre Christmas drinkies at Bradford mate, it's Freddie's birthday party I'm afraid.
I totally believe that there is no way back. KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans). So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
KM going (along with Driesen) could be part of negotiations. That's the whole point. You spell out exactly what you want, as does the other side, and you battle it out. The current situation is dire. Could negotiations make things any worse?
I totally believe that there is no way back. KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans). So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
KM going (along with Driesen) could be part of negotiations. That's the whole point. You spell out exactly what you want, as does the other side, and you battle it out. The current situation is dire. Could negotiations make things any worse?
You appear to missing some important points. KM & TD going maybe your/our request but RD seems perfectly happy with both of them employed by the club.
RD seems more than content to sit in Belgium counting his euros, the situation does not appear to be dire in his eyes at all so why would he want to enter a "battle"?
I believe Roland is stubborn and has dug his heels in and will not give up his idea of a pan European network of clubs. We have no reached a point of stalemate that is likely to leave the club the Leyton Orient of South London, a club stuck in level 3 or 4 football and with crowds of 4 or 5 thousand.
I totally believe that there is no way back. KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans). So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
KM going (along with Driesen) could be part of negotiations. That's the whole point. You spell out exactly what you want, as does the other side, and you battle it out. The current situation is dire. Could negotiations make things any worse?
You appear to missing some important points. KM & TD going maybe your/our request but RD seems perfectly happy with both of them employed by the club.
RD seems more than content to sit in Belgium counting his euros, the situation does not appear to be dire in his eyes at all so why would he want to enter a "battle"?
Because presumably Charlton will be useless to him with tiny gates and a future in league one or league two? What sort of success would that be for him? And isn't he driven by success?
You may be right though; it's hard to know what he wants, or where he stands re the club's future. But can he really just keep sacking managers if his plans aren't working?
And if he turned down a genuine offer of talks it might reinvigorate the protest movement. Something has to, because the atmosphere in (my part of) the Upper West was very anti CARD on Saturday.
I believe Roland is stubborn and has dug his heels in and will not give up his idea of a pan European network of clubs. We have no reached a point of stalemate that is likely to leave the club the Leyton Orient of South London, a club stuck in level 3 or 4 football and with crowds of 4 or 5 thousand.
It's the stalemate that's the issue. It's why talks might end up being the only solution. Unless things get so bad that ALL of the fans are protesting. The trouble is, there are some fans who increasingly blame the protesters for all that is going wrong at the club.
I trust that @Essex_Al will have read & inwardly digested those wise & succinct words of The Master.
If anyone is able to verbalise the situation in a manner that everyone can understand and hit every nail in the toolbox on its proverbial, it's this Lifer.....
Unfortunately I've had the chop so cannot supply you with babies I'm afraid, but would be very happy to get in a bit of practice, I am of course still a bit of a stud! The after sex chat would be very interesting!
Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . you meant Grapevine!
So rather than having "the snip" you decided to have your dick chopped off ?
I trust that @Essex_Al will have read & inwardly digested those wise & succinct words of The Master.
If anyone is able to verbalise the situation in a manner that everyone can understand and hit every nail in the toolbox on its proverbial, it's this Lifer.....
Unfortunately I've had the chop so cannot supply you with babies I'm afraid, but would be very happy to get in a bit of practice, I am of course still a bit of a stud! The after sex chat would be very interesting!
Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . you meant Grapevine!
So rather than having "the snip" you decided to have your dick chopped off ?
Yeah I did CE, but I got them to leave a good seven inches. Such a burden before!
I trust that @Essex_Al will have read & inwardly digested those wise & succinct words of The Master.
If anyone is able to verbalise the situation in a manner that everyone can understand and hit every nail in the toolbox on its proverbial, it's this Lifer.....
Unfortunately I've had the chop so cannot supply you with babies I'm afraid, but would be very happy to get in a bit of practice, I am of course still a bit of a stud! The after sex chat would be very interesting!
Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . you meant Grapevine!
So rather than having "the snip" you decided to have your dick chopped off ?
Yeah I did CE, but I got them to leave a good seven inches. Such a burden before!
I totally believe that there is no way back. KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans). So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
KM going (along with Driesen) could be part of negotiations. That's the whole point. You spell out exactly what you want, as does the other side, and you battle it out. The current situation is dire. Could negotiations make things any worse?
"He does things his way and you have to accept that". Where's the room for manoeuvre?
Comments
The after sex chat would be about my intellectual, fair, common sense postings on here but Fanny probably wouldn't agree which is why I said it you donut!
Unfortunately no pre Christmas drinkies at Bradford mate, it's Freddie's birthday party I'm afraid.
Probably the most sensible thing I have read on here for a while, but remember it takes two to Tango!
The more you think about it, the more you wonder why the FA does not lead on this and attempt to resolve some of these disputes going on at so many clubs this way.
Roland is an owner with unhappy customers, not unhappy employees. As customers we have a choice to continue attending or going somewhere else.
I don't know if it is an elephant in the room, but an astonishing run of wins, automatic promotion, and another astonishing run of wins would alter the landscape big time from all angles.
I see clear evidence of sustained and sustainable first team success as trumping talks or forms of communication.
Indeed before talks and communication I would also put access to clear and unambiguous evidence of the finances. As in debt, interest payments, the training ground, transfers, income and so on. All this stuff about putting money in is obfuscated to the nth degree.
Win a load of matches, tell us where we stand financially and truthfully, and then maybe it would be time to talk, because in the state we're all in, it is actions that count.
KM said the things about the club and the fans because that is how she sees it.she has not apologised. Even if she did those words are still how she see us( the fans).
So forget weaserly words. RD and the learning from mistakes mean nothing until KM goes.
Happy xmas silly man.
The current situation is dire. Could negotiations make things any worse?
RD seems more than content to sit in Belgium counting his euros, the situation does not appear to be dire in his eyes at all so why would he want to enter a "battle"?
What sort of success would that be for him? And isn't he driven by success?
You may be right though; it's hard to know what he wants, or where he stands re the club's future.
But can he really just keep sacking managers if his plans aren't working?
And if he turned down a genuine offer of talks it might reinvigorate the protest movement. Something has to, because the atmosphere in (my part of) the Upper West was very anti CARD on Saturday.
The trouble is, there are some fans who increasingly blame the protesters for all that is going wrong at the club.
Where's the room for manoeuvre?